watching B5 for the first time and it seems good

[Vendetta]

Wait, wait. Space: Above and Beyond didn't make it to a second season, and they never did a King Arthur episode?

Maybe they should have.

B5's King Arthur episode isn't until season 3, by which point there was probably some license for indulgent silliness.

[General Zod]

The reason given for the slums is not a lack of housing, it's that people came to B5 to find work (which, itself, seems odd; it either highlights incredible stupidity in not having lined up a job beforehand, or incredible desperation in the conditions back home), failed, and didn't have the money to get back home.

You mean in the distant future people still don't know how to plan ahead or save money? Surely impossible.

[Anguirus]

I hear the King Arthur episode was actually about King Arthur, rather than the poor delusional guy who was dying of guilt thanks to firing the shots that began that Earth-Minbari War?

(Ok, it was self-indulgent, but mostly was an excuse to get Michael York, who would have played Sheridan if PTEN weren't a bunch of idiots, to do an episode. Much lamer and more self-indulgent was the first season episode where David Warner is looking for the literal Holy Grail...and this is considered a good and admirable thing.)

[Samuel]

I hear the King Arthur episode was actually about King Arthur, rather than the poor delusional guy who was dying of guilt thanks to firing the shots that began that Earth-Minbari War?

(Ok, it was self-indulgent, but mostly was an excuse to get Michael York, who would have played Sheridan if PTEN weren't a bunch of idiots, to do an episode. Much lamer and more self-indulgent was the first season episode where David Warner is looking for the literal Holy Grail...and this is considered a good and admirable thing.)

Well, they had "where did he get the sword", but that was it for proof.

As for the Holy Grail... apparently the Mimbari consider religious fanaticism to the point of blocking out reality a good thing. How did they get into space again?

[Thanas]

^That is only the religious caste though. The warrior and worker castes (the ones who do all the work) are supposedly saner.

[Stofsk]

I don't think you can count the Warrior caste as 'sane'.

I always thought it was stupid of JMS to focus entirely on the Religious caste (the good guys) and the Warrior caste (the bad guys) in Minbari society, and completely neglect the Worker caste. Their viewpoint, opinions, policies, suggestions, whatever would have been interesting to look at - not as bloodthirsty as the Warriors, not as nuts as the Religious.

[General Zod]

I don't think you can count the Warrior caste as 'sane'.

I always thought it was stupid of JMS to focus entirely on the Religious caste (the good guys) and the Warrior caste (the bad guys) in Minbari society, and completely neglect the Worker caste. Their viewpoint, opinions, policies, suggestions, whatever would have been interesting to look at - not as bloodthirsty as the Warriors, not as nuts as the Religious.

I always figured the worker caste were basically the plebes. The religious cast were the politicians, bureaucrats, etc. The warrior caste were the military arm and the worker caste were basically the farmers and other poor bastards who had the luck of being on the lowest rung. So you never really saw them off planet.

[rhoenix]

I just saw the one where Ivanova has "sex" with that alien to secure an alliance.


Wow. Just...wow.

[Uraniun235]

The reason given for the slums is not a lack of housing, it's that people came to B5 to find work (which, itself, seems odd; it either highlights incredible stupidity in not having lined up a job beforehand, or incredible desperation in the conditions back home), failed, and didn't have the money to get back home.

You mean in the distant future people still don't know how to plan ahead or save money? Surely impossible.

I would think people would look at potentially stranding themselves on a space station with a little more caution than moving to another city.

I guess my problem is that the problem of slums on a space station seems like one that should be relatively easy to fix and prevent - there might be an initial investment of funds needed (which was always an issue for B5) but it's still a much more controlled environment than any terrestrial city would ever be.


On the other hand, if JMS was trying to show that the Earth Alliance is really kind of a shithole state (even prior to everything going to hell), I guess he did a decent job of it.

[General Zod]

I just saw the one where Ivanova has "sex" with that alien to secure an alliance.


Wow. Just...wow.

lolwut

I must have missed that one. I need to go back through my DVDs and watch it again.

[Samuel]

I just saw the one where Ivanova has "sex" with that alien to secure an alliance.


Wow. Just...wow.

lolwut

I must have missed that one. I need to go back through my DVDs and watch it again.

It is the aliens that are eugenics nuts. They use an intermediary because they don't know if humanity is good enough, but are persuaded when they see the slums. What a marvelous way to insure cheap labor and keep down unrest by depressing wages! Yes, the ambassador actually says something like that.

[Stofsk]

The reason given for the slums is not a lack of housing, it's that people came to B5 to find work (which, itself, seems odd; it either highlights incredible stupidity in not having lined up a job beforehand, or incredible desperation in the conditions back home), failed, and didn't have the money to get back home.

You mean in the distant future people still don't know how to plan ahead or save money? Surely impossible.

I would think people would look at potentially stranding themselves on a space station with a little more caution than moving to another city.

I guess my problem is that the problem of slums on a space station seems like one that should be relatively easy to fix and prevent - there might be an initial investment of funds needed (which was always an issue for B5) but it's still a much more controlled environment than any terrestrial city would ever be.


On the other hand, if JMS was trying to show that the Earth Alliance is really kind of a shithole state (even prior to everything going to hell), I guess he did a decent job of it.

B5 obviously has a large enough internal volume to allow for a massive population, with 250K as being the oft-quoted number in the show for it's transient population. I think a space habitat like B5's size could support a much larger population than 250K people, and it may well have been purposely designed for a larger number of people (which could be why the lurker situation was never really cleared up; if it isn't taxing the life support systems to breaking point there's no real problem with having lurkers and a downbelow slum, from a technical point of view; ethical and civic considerations to one side, of course). You're right of course that a space habitat is an infinitely more controlled environment than a dirtside city is, but when you start getting higher numbers of people controlling the environment becomes problematic.

I don't think JMS was trying to show the EA as a shithole prior to Clarke becoming President, I think it was more like he was trying to show that in the future, the problems that we have to deal with won't be magically fixed like in Star Trek. Certainly technological fixes won't be fixes at all (I always got the feeling that Trek's society was perfect because of devices like the replicator, which could basically feed anybody regardless of social status), and seeing homeless (or 'transient') populations on what would be considered a regulated space station ties into that. By their very existence and the fact no solution was ever really made, the lurkers can't be taxing the life support systems or affecting living space for the paying residents onboard the station, otherwise they couldn't exist.

The thing that really bothers me is that B5 is obviously more than simply a diplomatic base for all the races in the galaxy to talk over their disputes. It has to be something like a space colony, because a population of a quarter million people just seems way too high if all the business that's going on is people yammering away about their gripes and shit. And while JMS did show glimpses of society on B5 (crime and punishment, judges and courtrooms, dockworkers and unions and trade disputes, commercial enterprises and shopping districts, and of course lurkers and downbelow), and that's a good thing IMO, it seems incongruous given B5's stated role. If all it is literally a diplomatic outpost, why have so many people? B5 as a show might have been a lot better if JMS had given more thought into this (maybe give a little more exposition as to why there were so many people living on B5, maybe make the system its in a part of a landgrab ploy by EA for strategic reasons and plant a huge number of people in the area and claim it as their territory... unfortunately it was said several times IIRC that the system B5 is in is neutral territory).

I don't think you can count the Warrior caste as 'sane'.

I always thought it was stupid of JMS to focus entirely on the Religious caste (the good guys) and the Warrior caste (the bad guys) in Minbari society, and completely neglect the Worker caste. Their viewpoint, opinions, policies, suggestions, whatever would have been interesting to look at - not as bloodthirsty as the Warriors, not as nuts as the Religious.

I always figured the worker caste were basically the plebes. The religious cast were the politicians, bureaucrats, etc. The warrior caste were the military arm and the worker caste were basically the farmers and other poor bastards who had the luck of being on the lowest rung. So you never really saw them off planet.

Remember we're talking about a technologically advanced and sophisticated alien civilisation, just because their society is caste based doesn't mean it's backward. Workers in a space faring civilisation would imply skilled and educated people, sure you'd get farmer types but they wouldn't necessarily be dumb hicks, and you'd also get engineers, scientists, industrialists, people who make Minbari society function. The Warriors obviously keep everyone safe and secure, while the Religious caste tend to more cultural pursuits (Minbari 'religion' seems to be more in line with culture more than anything, so as well as being the politicians and bureaucrats they're likely also the artisans and poets and so on), but someone needs to make sure things don't breakdown.

I just saw the one where Ivanova has "sex" with that alien to secure an alliance.


Wow. Just...wow.

lolwut

I must have missed that one. I need to go back through my DVDs and watch it again.

Season 2 "Acts of Sacrifice" an episode that is mainly about G'kar maintaining discipline with the local Narn population on the station, and having his authority challenged by an upstart. That plot was ok, but it was saddled with a B plot (or maybe it was a C plot?) where representatives of a new species come to B5 to talk to the Earth Alliance and Ivanova gets tasked with being the diplomat (IIRC Sheridan did it to give his XO some experience doing these kinds of things, good for career etc). Of course JMS does a typically weird ass thing and gives these aliens a quirk (they close every deal with sex or something), and Ivanova doesn't want to get nasty with some alien ambassador so she does the sex dance thing.

B5 could be a great series, but when it sucked, it really, REALLY sucked.

[General Zod]

If all it is literally a diplomatic outpost, why have so many people? B5 as a show might have been a lot better if JMS had given more thought into this (maybe give a little more exposition as to why there were so many people living on B5, maybe make the system its in a part of a landgrab ploy by EA for strategic reasons and plant a huge number of people in the area and claim it as their territory... unfortunately it was said several times IIRC that the system B5 is in is neutral territory).

I assumed part of it that B5's location was a prime choice for a huge trading hub on top of a diplomatic outpost. With so many races coming in to negotiate deals why not go for some capitalistic money grabs on the side?

Remember we're talking about a technologically advanced and sophisticated alien civilisation, just because their society is caste based doesn't mean it's backward. Workers in a space faring civilisation would imply skilled and educated people, sure you'd get farmer type plebes, but you'd also get engineers, scientists, industrialists, people who make Minbari society function. The Warriors obviously keep everyone safe and secure, while the Religious caste tend to more cultural pursuits (Minbari 'religion' seems to be more in line with culture more than anything, so as well as being the politicians and bureaucrats they're likely also the artisans and poets and so on), but someone needs to make sure things don't breakdown.

Don't forget that the Minbari were more than happy to go to war and nearly exterminate humanity due to cultural misunderstandings and a tragic accident until they found out about some silly thing with human and Minbari souls intermixing. Life might not have been horrible as a Worker caste, but they certainly came off as the bottom-rung.

[Zed Snardbody]

Wasn't down below also stated to be the unfinished portion of the station?

Its been so long I've lost track of what is cannon for the show and what isn't. But I think is in their somewhere that they rushed to get the station online and left a good portion unfinished and that became down below.

Sort of make sense. There are the com units that seem to be down there that aren't jury rigged or anything they just never got around to putting in the partition walls or leasing it out I guess. So you have the equivalent of giant loft spaces.

[Stofsk]

Oh certainly; I guess I felt JMS dropped the ball by showing the Worker caste as nothing but the Minbari forgotten caste. These guys should have had more of a role, but instead he focused on Delenn and her crazy Religious caste guys, and the various crazier Warrior caste guys. You just know that the Workers are sitting in the middle going "Gee, these guys are a pack of fucking lunatics... and the chicken soup machine is playing up, gotta remember to fix it."

[Stofsk]

Wasn't down below also stated to be the unfinished portion of the station?

Its been so long I've lost track of what is cannon for the show and what isn't. But I think is in their somewhere that they rushed to get the station online and left a good portion unfinished and that became down below.

Sort of make sense. There are the com units that seem to be down there that aren't jury rigged or anything they just never got around to putting in the partition walls or leasing it out I guess. So you have the equivalent of giant loft spaces.

Y'know I was thinking that too. B5 was the cheapest station to be built, and the smallest. B1, B2, and B3 were all destroyed, I think some were destroyed early in the construction and I think B3 was destroyed right after it was finished being built. B4 was the biggest of the lot, and they threw a lot into it, but it too ended up vanishing. Why EA decided to build a fifth one kinda beggars belief. (not to mention losing the first three stations to acts of sabotage; ok nobody could have predicted what happened to B4, but the first three? What happened to security and shit?)

[Uraniun235]

The thing that really bothers me is that B5 is obviously more than simply a diplomatic base for all the races in the galaxy to talk over their disputes. It has to be something like a space colony, because a population of a quarter million people just seems way too high if all the business that's going on is people yammering away about their gripes and shit. And while JMS did show glimpses of society on B5 (crime and punishment, judges and courtrooms, dockworkers and unions and trade disputes, commercial enterprises and shopping districts, and of course lurkers and downbelow), and that's a good thing IMO, it seems incongruous given B5's stated role.

I'm pretty sure they say that a shitload of trade goes through Babylon 5, supposedly it's in a great location to serve as a trade hub. You're right though, I think they should have emphasized more of the "city in space" thing (as it was, a lot of the frequently seen B5 sets would fit into a modern international airport terminal), but that may have been partly attributable to the budget.

EDIT:

Y'know I was thinking that too. B5 was the cheapest station to be built, and the smallest. B1, B2, and B3 were all destroyed, I think some were destroyed early in the construction and I think B3 was destroyed right after it was finished being built. B4 was the biggest of the lot, and they threw a lot into it, but it too ended up vanishing. Why EA decided to build a fifth one kinda beggars belief. (not to mention losing the first three stations to acts of sabotage; ok nobody could have predicted what happened to B4, but the first three? What happened to security and shit?)

I think one of the B stations "just blew up" or something, it was an accident or negligence or something. If I remember right it happened before it started, but that doesn't make as much sense to me; seems to me like the best time for it to really fuck up would be when they're spinning thousands of tons of metal for the first time. But then, B5 also has volatile fusion reactors, so *shrug*

Also if I remember right EA was ready to give up when the Minbari and Centauri came forward and offered to help pay for it.

[Aaron]

Oh certainly; I guess I felt JMS dropped the ball by showing the Worker caste as nothing but the Minbari forgotten caste. These guys should have had more of a role, but instead he focused on Delenn and her crazy Religious caste guys, and the various crazier Warrior caste guys. You just know that the Workers are sitting in the middle going "Gee, these guys are a pack of fucking lunatics... and the chicken soup machine is playing up, gotta remember to fix it."

I got the distinct impression when Delenn breaks up the council that the caste's aren't as rigid as we're thinking, she says something to the effect of "between the Religious caste and the Worker caste we control two-thirds of our forces". That says to me that the Workers and Religious guys own and crew their own ships, which IIRC is what we see on the Whitestar.

[Balrog]

At least in the end when Delenn Spoiler

reformed the Grey Council she gave the Workers the majority vote this time, with the point being that the Workers pretty much sat on the sidelines doing the shit that keeps the wheels turning, or got caught in the middle, while the Religious and Warrior castes bitched and fought with each other.

[Thanas]

I doubt that more city in space would have been exciting or that they would have fit in with the overall plot. For example, season 1 and 2 had a lot of those episodes and they were a bit boring. The only ones who grabbed my attention there was the strike episode and the episode with the pirates.

And the episode where Franklin takes a walk was a city in space episode as well and it was boring as well.

[rhoenix]

With all the nitpicking on this series is getting (and rightfully so), it still has a certain level of intrigue to it that I haven't seen in many other series. Yes, sometimes it's cheesy, but its dealing with certain things that Trek never bothered with in their "NO WE HAVE A UTOPIA LALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU ABOUT MAQUIS", or with some realities of war.

It's still proving to be fascinating; I'm toward the end of the episode "Hunter, Prey" in s2; e13 I think it is, and I'll be able to finish watching it once work calms down.

[Samuel]

I think one of the B stations "just blew up" or something, it was an accident or negligence or something. If I remember right it happened before it started, but that doesn't make as much sense to me; seems to me like the best time for it to really fuck up would be when they're spinning thousands of tons of metal for the first time. But then, B5 also has volatile fusion reactors, so *shrug*

I never honestly thought about this. Now I have this hilarious image in my head of them trying to justify the budget for number 2, 3, 4 and 5. It won't explode this time

[rhoenix]

I think one of the B stations "just blew up" or something, it was an accident or negligence or something. If I remember right it happened before it started, but that doesn't make as much sense to me; seems to me like the best time for it to really fuck up would be when they're spinning thousands of tons of metal for the first time. But then, B5 also has volatile fusion reactors, so *shrug*

I never honestly thought about this. Now I have this hilarious image in my head of them trying to justify the budget for number 2, 3, 4 and 5. It won't explode this time

After 1,2, and 3 just exploded, and the 4th just got itself vanished, it does seem amusing that B5 was ever even planned, let alone built. Fifth time's the charm, I guess.

[Zed Snardbody]

I've got transfer orders for you!

Neat, where to?

Babylon 5!

Fuck.....But I don't want to explode!

Maybe you'll just vanish.

[Vympel]

I'm moving this to OSF because I like it.