I think one of the B stations "just blew up" or something, it was an accident or negligence or something. If I remember right it happened before it started, but that doesn't make as much sense to me; seems to me like the best time for it to really fuck up would be when they're spinning thousands of tons of metal for the first time. But then, B5 also has volatile fusion reactors, so *shrug*
I never honestly thought about this. Now I have this hilarious image in my head of them trying to justify the budget for number 2, 3, 4 and 5. It won't explode this time
After 1,2, and 3 just exploded, and the 4th just got itself vanished, it does seem amusing that B5 was ever even planned, let alone built. Fifth time's the charm, I guess.
That's why the Minbari had to cough up the dough for it- Earth wouldn't do it. And why they got to pick Sinclair.
I think one of the B stations "just blew up" or something, it was an accident or negligence or something. If I remember right it happened before it started, but that doesn't make as much sense to me; seems to me like the best time for it to really fuck up would be when they're spinning thousands of tons of metal for the first time. But then, B5 also has volatile fusion reactors, so *shrug*
I never honestly thought about this. Now I have this hilarious image in my head of them trying to justify the budget for number 2, 3, 4 and 5. It won't explode this time
After 1,2, and 3 just exploded, and the 4th just got itself vanished, it does seem amusing that B5 was ever even planned, let alone built. Fifth time's the charm, I guess.
The Minbari did co-finance B5, plus president Santiago had a hard-on for the Babylon project.
So I stare wistfully at the Lightning for a couple of minutes. Two missiles, sharply raked razor-thin wings, a huge, pregnant belly full of fuel, and the two screamingly powerful engines that once rammed it from a cold start to a thousand miles per hour in under a minute. Life would be so much easier if our adverseries could be dealt with by supersonic death on wings - but alas, Human resources aren't so easily defeated.
Wasn't the deck dissapearing episode in season 5? I remember there being one where some race wants to perform some ceremony, but to do it it has to be a possession of thier homeworld so they are loaned it? Didn't it also have people coming back from the dead as a result?
Overall, I'll say the series was enjoyable (I don't think I've seen it since TNT and I think UPN stopped showing it). There were some rather strange episodes (time travel ones), and some rather good ones (those involving the whole Narn-Centauri arc). In general I agree with Stofsk, about the show being in some respects opposite of Star Trek TNG+ being rather refreshing as a viewer. I also liked the fact that they had sections on the stations where the atmosphere was for aliens and that some aliens wore environment suits, unlike Trek (and even to some degree the Wars movies) where every alien barring the Breen seems to breath a standard nitrogen oxygen atmosphere. Granted I don't really know (or care) how scientifically plausible breathing a non earth like atmosphere would be, but its better than most where the only readily apparentness of alien physiology is different colored blood.
Part of it is mentioned in the episode where Sinclair is investigated for being a traitor (that the Minbari picked him specifically), and various other places.
fgalkin wrote:Part of it is mentioned in the episode where Sinclair is investigated for being a traitor (that the Minbari picked him specifically), and various other places.
Interesting. Very interesting. This actually explains quite a bit, thank you.
I've ten thousand other questions about the series right now, seeing as I'm still only on s2e13, but I'm sure most of them will be answered in time.
One semi-nonspoiler question though - is it ever revealed what Kosh's purpose, or reason for staying on Babylon 5?
Wing Commander MAD wrote:Wasn't the deck dissapearing episode in season 5? I remember there being one where some race wants to perform some ceremony, but to do it it has to be a possession of thier homeworld so they are loaned it? Didn't it also have people coming back from the dead as a result?
No, that's "Day of the Dead" where the Brakiri rent out a section of B5 and then suddenly ghosts! "Grey 17 is Missing" is from season 3, and IIRC even JMS thought it sucked and wished it had been rewritten.
One semi-nonspoiler question though - is it ever revealed what Kosh's purpose, or reason for staying on Babylon 5?
[Kosh]Yes[/Kosh]
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
B5 was my favorite show when I was a teenager. As somebody that had previously only been exposed to Trek, and before I really got into written SF, it was a nice change of pace. And of course I can't forget that much of my enjoyment was from the Big Space Opera Plot and starship battles that really came to a head in S3-4.
It's been years since I've seen any of it, so I may be looking on it with rose-colored fanboy glasses. In retrospect, I think that the Londo/G'Kar arc was probably the most enjoyable element of the series for me.
All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain...
fgalkin wrote:Part of it is mentioned in the episode where Sinclair is investigated for being a traitor (that the Minbari picked him specifically), and various other places.
Interesting. Very interesting. This actually explains quite a bit, thank you.
Yeah, and then Clarke replaced him with Sheridan the Starkiller. An enormous "fuck you" to the Minbari, which puts their reaction into proper perspective.
fgalkin wrote:Yeah, and then Clarke replaced him with Sheridan the Starkiller. An enormous "fuck you" to the Minbari, which puts their reaction into proper perspective.
Yes, it does - it also gives the impression that the EA is attempting to destabilize relations with the Minbari, which...I'm unsure as to the benefit.
Stark wrote:Well a lot of people in Earthdome think that if the Earth-Minbari war was fought today, the result would have been very different.
Ten years would turn what amounted to a brutal mugging (that was only stopped because of that whole "lol humans have minbari souls" thing) into...what, a stalemate?
I'd love to see some more evidence that the EA has seriously upgunned during that time, but I haven't seen any evidence of it, besides the Doctor's General of a father adding more and better guns to B5 itself - but nothing was mentioned about the fighter wings, which appear to be the exact same as they were during the Earth-Minbari war.
Stark wrote:Well a lot of people in Earthdome think that if the Earth-Minbari war was fought today, the result would have been very different.
Ten years would turn what amounted to a brutal mugging (that was only stopped because of that whole "lol humans have minbari souls" thing) into...what, a stalemate?
Likely not even that.
The Minbari would likely have still steamrolled Earth.
I'd love to see some more evidence that the EA has seriously upgunned during that time, but I haven't seen any evidence of it, besides the Doctor's General of a father adding more and better guns to B5 itself - but nothing was mentioned about the fighter wings, which appear to be the exact same as they were during the Earth-Minbari war.
You really won't, unless some of the S4 stuff is any measure of "upgunning".
And even then...
I won't spoil it
All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain...
Actually, B5's time travel stuff is pretty good. It has lots of surprises and generally keeps with what happened in previous episodes, and explains a bit. It's some of their better stuff.
I like how the most sensible person on the whole show is not the Know-it-all humans, the religious nutbar space elves... but the violent, angry beligerent Ambassador J'Kar from Season 1, who then becomes a lot more developed. His interplay and relationship with Londo is something really great about that show.
The War though was such a non-event. Only ten thousand people died for the 'greatest' war in the last few decades previous.
Stark wrote:Well a lot of people in Earthdome think that if the Earth-Minbari war was fought today, the result would have been very different.
Ten years would turn what amounted to a brutal mugging (that was only stopped because of that whole "lol humans have minbari souls" thing) into...what, a stalemate?
I'd love to see some more evidence that the EA has seriously upgunned during that time, but I haven't seen any evidence of it, besides the Doctor's General of a father adding more and better guns to B5 itself - but nothing was mentioned about the fighter wings, which appear to be the exact same as they were during the Earth-Minbari war.
Stark is pumping you up for season 3 - there's what Clark's faction thinks (or thinks it thinks) and then there is reality.
Anyhow, you're just at the beginning of the best part of the show, second part of season 2, season 3 and season 4 represent the best of the show - it weaves a unique tapestry of characters in an unprecedented politically-aware background (well, maybe Battlestar managed to repeat the feat recently - before the lol magic phase). Its really an unique treat for a discerning sci-fi viewer .
As for the earlier complaint that B5 is just a diplomatic post - its not. B5 is also a commerce hub as well as the business in general hub for companies operating in the outer rim (remember Sakai and numerous agreements made on screen for direct shipment of goods not involving B5 directly) - that alone would probably be almost enough on its own. Combine that with an diplomatic post that is essentially the UN in space with even more relevance then the real thing (seriously, look at the profile of ambassadors sent - almost all the races are sending people that could potentially be their next leader - well, except the Gaim who send purpose made diplomats - its a top prestigious posting for the political elite of almost all participants) and you get a excellent reason for the existence of B5.
Netko wrote:As for the earlier complaint that B5 is just a diplomatic post - its not. B5 is also a commerce hub as well as the business in general hub for companies operating in the outer rim (remember Sakai and numerous agreements made on screen for direct shipment of goods not involving B5 directly) - that alone would probably be almost enough on its own.
Actually, my complaint is directed at JMS's weird shit more than anything. Spoiler
Remember in the finale "Sleeping in Light" B5 is destroyed, and JMS claims this is because within 20 years after the events of the show B5 diminishes severely in importance. It no longer has a place as a diplomatic outpost nor does it serve as a trade hub. It's hard to imagine trade routes just drying up, in real life geography affects things like trade routes, sea lines of communication, and so on, and geography doesn't change in any noticeable way - this would be true of space as well. Maybe a particular trade company loses a licence, but that doesn't mean new companies travel in a different way, if B5 sits on a nexus point that allows ships to travel from A-B quickly and be resupplied during their journey, this doesn't magically disappear just because JMS says so.
So ok it was more than a diplomatic outpost, I agree with that - so why blow it up? It's a fucking stupid way to end the show IMO, and it's like JMS thinks B5 is nothing but a diplomatic post, when it's large enough and has enough people living on it that it amounts to a city in space.
Combine that with an diplomatic post that is essentially the UN in space with even more relevance then the real thing (seriously, look at the profile of ambassadors sent - almost all the races are sending people that could potentially be their next leader - well, except the Gaim who send purpose made diplomats - its a top prestigious posting for the political elite of almost all participants) and you get a excellent reason for the existence of B5.
Spoiler
Not everyone took B5 seriously - the Centauri sent Londo, who was something of a joke. He felt that the post was almost an insult, but took it anyway probably because his prospects weren't all that great pre-B5. Interesting facet for his character given how he ends up as Emperor of the Centauri Republic.
Since its also no longer a diplomatic station no one wants to maintain it. Isn't b5 a net importer of supplies? Once they were cut off from the Earth Alliance they had to negotiate with the black market to maintain the station. Once its turned back over to the Earth Alliance it probably got trashed in a Base Closure program or something since the Interstellar Alliance is taking care of its main goal.
Since its also no longer a diplomatic station no one wants to maintain it. Isn't b5 a net importer of supplies? Once they were cut off from the Earth Alliance they had to negotiate with the black market to maintain the station. Once its turned back over to the Earth Alliance it probably got trashed in a Base Closure program or something since the Interstellar Alliance is taking care of its main goal.
Spoiler
That's part of the reason why it sucks. If it's just a diplomatic station, it's too big and too heavily populated. If it's more than a diplomatic station, there's no justification for destroying it. B5 being maintenance heavy is a lot like saying a city is maintenance heavy. It sitting on trade routes and giving ships and freighters a port where they can conduct business is something that would bring in huge amounts of revenue, and its something that B5 had to rely on when Sheridan seceded it from the EA. I don't recall any negotiations with the black market, the regular market was what sustained B5 during those years, and I don't see how this situation would drastically change in a mere 20 years to the point where B5 could no longer be maintained and had to be destroyed.
Really it's just shit writing and one aspect of B5 I was never satisfied with.
Wing Commander MAD wrote:Wasn't the deck dissapearing episode in season 5? I remember there being one where some race wants to perform some ceremony, but to do it it has to be a possession of thier homeworld so they are loaned it? Didn't it also have people coming back from the dead as a result?
Day of the Dead was a season 5 episode, yes (Written by Neil Gaiman, in fact), but the deck didn't disappear, they just set up some kind of forcefield to seal it off. Grey 17 is Missing, which is the episode people were talking about earlier on, is near the end of season 3, and mostly suffers from having an unconvincing rubber suit monster.
Since its also no longer a diplomatic station no one wants to maintain it. Isn't b5 a net importer of supplies? Once they were cut off from the Earth Alliance they had to negotiate with the black market to maintain the station. Once its turned back over to the Earth Alliance it probably got trashed in a Base Closure program or something since the Interstellar Alliance is taking care of its main goal.
Spoiler
That's part of the reason why it sucks. If it's just a diplomatic station, it's too big and too heavily populated. If it's more than a diplomatic station, there's no justification for destroying it. B5 being maintenance heavy is a lot like saying a city is maintenance heavy. It sitting on trade routes and giving ships and freighters a port where they can conduct business is something that would bring in huge amounts of revenue, and its something that B5 had to rely on when Sheridan seceded it from the EA. I don't recall any negotiations with the black market, the regular market was what sustained B5 during those years, and I don't see how this situation would drastically change in a mere 20 years to the point where B5 could no longer be maintained and had to be destroyed.
Really it's just shit writing and one aspect of B5 I was never satisfied with.
It isn't just physical geography in B5. Travel depended heavily on jump-gates being installed, so maybe at the time B5 was one of the few viable jump-gates people could use to get to where they were going. It's feasible in 20 years that more jump-gates would have been built, diminishing the need to use the one around B5.
"It's you Americans. There's something about nipples you hate. If this were Germany, we'd be romping around naked on the stage here."
Stofsk wrote:Oh certainly; I guess I felt JMS dropped the ball by showing the Worker caste as nothing but the Minbari forgotten caste. These guys should have had more of a role, but instead he focused on Delenn and her crazy Religious caste guys, and the various crazier Warrior caste guys. You just know that the Workers are sitting in the middle going "Gee, these guys are a pack of fucking lunatics... and the chicken soup machine is playing up, gotta remember to fix it."
Spoiler
Well, in the end they do come out ahead when the Minbari society restructures so they have a perpetual majority on the Grey Council.
-A.L.
"Nothing in this world can take the place of persistence...Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent. The slogan 'press on' has solved and always will solve the problems of the human race." - Calvin Coolidge
"If you're falling off a cliff you may as well try to fly, you've got nothing to lose." - John Sheridan (Babylon 5)
"Sometimes you got to roll the hard six." - William Adama (Battlestar Galactica)
With regards to B5's diminished importance in 20 years, keep in mind that many of the races were having perpetual border wars before the ISA. It actually made sense to go out of your way into neutral territory in order to trade with people. Eventually, travel becomes easier and nobody has any particular reason to go to the Epsilon system.
It's a poetic cheat, sure, but it's not THAT bad.
"I spit on metaphysics, sir."
"I pity the woman you marry." -Liberty
This is the guy they want to use to win over "young people?" Are they completely daft? I'd rather vote for a pile of shit than a Jesus freak social regressive.
Here's hoping that his political career goes down in flames and, hopefully, a hilarious gay sex scandal. -Tanasinn
You can't expect sodomy to ruin every conservative politician in this country. -Battlehymn Republic
Stark wrote:Well a lot of people in Earthdome think that if the Earth-Minbari war was fought today, the result would have been very different.
Ten years would turn what amounted to a brutal mugging (that was only stopped because of that whole "lol humans have minbari souls" thing) into...what, a stalemate?
I'd love to see some more evidence that the EA has seriously upgunned during that time, but I haven't seen any evidence of it, besides the Doctor's General of a father adding more and better guns to B5 itself - but nothing was mentioned about the fighter wings, which appear to be the exact same as they were during the Earth-Minbari war.
Well, B5 won't be fighting any wars any time soon, given that it's a diplomatic outpost in neutral territory with a bunch of alien ambassadors on board, right? Right?
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