With regards to B5's diminished importance in 20 years, keep in mind that many of the races were having perpetual border wars before the ISA. It actually made sense to go out of your way into neutral territory in order to trade with people. Eventually, travel becomes easier and nobody has any particular reason to go to the Epsilon system.
It's a poetic cheat, sure, but it's not THAT bad.
Spoiler
No reason except the incredibly powerful alien energy weapons/time travel/whatever else devices down on Epsilon III
Which aren't exactly welcoming them with open arms, are they? Shadows are one thing, now the war is over, and the ISA can take a hike when it comes to Draal and his cache of tech.
The Centauri Ambassador's assistant Vir I like more every episode - his beginning scene in s2e16 where he met Mr. Morton (the semi-official Shadow ambassador), and when asked what it is he wanted, replied cheerfully (and I'm paraphrasing - but damn this made me laugh): "What I want is to live long enough to see you beheaded and your lifeless head stuck on a pike on our Centauri homeworld as a warning toward those who are dangerous with their favors. Every day, I would walk up to your lifeless head, and wave. Just like this!" (as he waggles his fingers with a grin)
The way he made that same wave goodbye was utterly priceless.
So far, growing more impressed with this show - the character writing, the acting, and the plot threading.
Stark wrote:Well a lot of people in Earthdome think that if the Earth-Minbari war was fought today, the result would have been very different.
Ten years would turn what amounted to a brutal mugging (that was only stopped because of that whole "lol humans have minbari souls" thing) into...what, a stalemate?
I'd love to see some more evidence that the EA has seriously upgunned during that time, but I haven't seen any evidence of it, besides the Doctor's General of a father adding more and better guns to B5 itself - but nothing was mentioned about the fighter wings, which appear to be the exact same as they were during the Earth-Minbari war.
The only evidence that I recall is Sheriden mentioning they had new scanners developed, but B5 wasn't stocking them. This was in the first episode that Sheriden appeared in, so thats how he knew the Minbari renegades had their stealth turned off, ie they were still using old scanners but could detect Minbari ships. Whether the new scanners could detect them is another matter altogether.
Moreover, only Earthdome seemed to think they would be a match for the Minbari. In one episode Sheriden mentioned he didn't think they would match the Centauri and queried Earth force's ability to match the Narn Spoiler
(obvious this occurred before the Narn Centauri war)
.
Never apologise for being a geek, because they won't apologise to you for being an arsehole. John Barrowman - 22 June 2014 Perth Supernova.
Countries I have been to - 14.
Australia, Canada, China, Colombia, Denmark, Ecuador, Finland, Germany, Malaysia, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore, Sweden, USA.
Always on the lookout for more nice places to visit.
rhoenix wrote:Still on Season 2, now I'm onto e19.
Oh, man, if you like it so far, you're in for a treat. Starting with the next episode, the show goes on a winning streak of sheer AWESOME up until the middle of season 4, that blows everything you've seen so far out of the water.
Keep the comments coming, it's almost like watching the show all over again for the first time
fgalkin wrote:Oh, man, if you like it so far, you're in for a treat. Starting with the next episode, the show goes on a winning streak of sheer AWESOME up until the middle of season 4, that blows everything you've seen so far out of the water.
Very, very awesome.
I do appreciate the answers (and the replies to my "oooh! shiny!" enthusiasm) - I am grateful to those who suggested B5 to me in the first place. I see Hulu only has up through Season 2, so I'll get the rest through Netflix.
This really was what I was looking for in a good scifi series - plots that span multiple episodes (and seasons, from what I keep hearing), and rather good characterization. It really is refreshing. Not to mention being a source of good inspiration for my own writing.
Also, I think it's really funny how the EA has the worst-looking ships.
Samuel wrote:All the seasons. I heard they wrote out the whole series in advance.
That seriously is awesome. Hilarious too, considering the random "wtf?" moments, but awesome overall.
Also - if Kosh is the last of the old ones (or whoever), that therefore makes the Vorlon...what, a completely made-up race? If all the EA survey ships that entered Vorlon space were all never heard from again, were they rolled up and smoked by (presumably) automated defenses, or did Kosh hire them all to wash his ship, or what?
fgalkin wrote:Huh? What made you think he's the only Vorlon in existence? We've seen other Vorlon ships- in the pilot movie and the Deathwalker episode.
Vorlons being last of the old ones=! Kosh being the only Vorlon in existence
Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin
AHA. That makes more sense. I got this from the episode where Sherridan tosses Mr. Morton into the brig and rantingly questions him about his wife's death - Delenn and Kosh basically pull Sherridan aside and tell him "let him go or ugly shit will jump off, and way before we're ready" - it was during the talk that it was implied that Kosh was the last one - but the Vorlons being the last of the Old Ones makes more sense.
Also...does the show ever go into the origin of the Shadows, or are they basically the galaxy's original trolls, screwing with everyone else because they think its hilarious?
rhoenix wrote:Still on Season 2, now I'm onto e19.
The Centauri Ambassador's assistant Vir I like more every episode - his beginning scene in s2e16 where he met Mr. Morton (the semi-official Shadow ambassador), and when asked what it is he wanted, replied cheerfully (and I'm paraphrasing - but damn this made me laugh): "What I want is to live long enough to see you beheaded and your lifeless head stuck on a pike on our Centauri homeworld as a warning toward those who are dangerous with their favors. Every day, I would walk up to your lifeless head, and wave. Just like this!" (as he waggles his fingers with a grin)
The way he made that same wave goodbye was utterly priceless.
Remember that scene. Remember it well, that's all I'm gonna say.
As for the EA's sabre-rattling in s2, that's ALL it was (and some of the reasons for WHY it was doing it will unfold as the series continues).
They would have been just as helpless against the Minbari as they were during the war.
Spoiler
A sizeable Task Force sent to take back B5 after they declared independence turned tail and ran in the face of 3 Minbari Warcruisers in 'Severed Dreams'
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Batman wrote:Remember that scene. Remember it well, that's all I'm gonna say.
Honestly, I laughed my ass off enough at the scene to watch it again immediately afterward - so, I doubt I'll forget it anytime soon. Heh.
Batman wrote:As for the EA's sabre-rattling in s2, that's ALL it was (and some of the reasons for WHY it was doing it will unfold as the series continues).
They would have been just as helpless against the Minbari as they were during the war.
Somehow, that doesn't surprise me. I will be patient to see why exactly they were doing the desperate saber-rattling, because right now it seems monumentally stupid to parade paper tigers around when things are so...volatile.
Batman wrote:
As for the EA's sabre-rattling in s2, that's ALL it was (and some of the reasons for WHY it was doing it will unfold as the series continues).
They would have been just as helpless against the Minbari as they were during the war.
Spoiler
A sizeable Task Force sent to take back B5 after they declared independence turned tail and ran in the face of 3 Minbari Warcruisers in 'Severed Dreams'
Spoiler
Yeah, and in the episode immediately after EA sympathizers within B5 hatch a plan to try to get the Minbari warships to leave so their forces can come back.
'Ai! ai!' wailed Legolas. 'A Balrog! A Balrog is come!'
Gimli stared with wide eyes. 'Durin's Bane!' he cried, and letting his axe fall he covered his face.
'A Balrog,' muttered Gandalf. 'Now I understand.' He faltered and leaned heavily on his staff. 'What an evil fortune! And I am already weary.'
- J.R.R Tolkien, The Fellowship of the Ring
Batman wrote:Remember that scene. Remember it well, that's all I'm gonna say.
Honestly, I laughed my ass off enough at the scene to watch it again immediately afterward - so, I doubt I'll forget it anytime soon. Heh.
Batman wrote:As for the EA's sabre-rattling in s2, that's ALL it was (and some of the reasons for WHY it was doing it will unfold as the series continues).
They would have been just as helpless against the Minbari as they were during the war.
Somehow, that doesn't surprise me. I will be patient to see why exactly they were doing the desperate saber-rattling, because right now it seems monumentally stupid to parade paper tigers around when things are so...volatile.
To stir up the people back home. Consider the recent case of Ajmadinejad. JMS was generally good when it came to that sort of thing. Plus, well, you'll see fairly soon.
Very interesting - seeing the undertones that harken back to present day are rather poignant so far.
I will be patient to find out what the rest of the series brings, and will happily inform the Internet of my thoughts when I finish s2e19 and subsequent episodes.
A sizeable Task Force sent to take back B5 after they declared independence turned tail and ran in the face of 3 Minbari Warcruisers in 'Severed Dreams'
Spoiler
Yeah, and in the episode immediately after EA sympathizers within B5 hatch a plan to try to get the Minbari warships to leave so their forces can come back.
Spoiler
Which sort of means they thought they DIDN'T have the means to take back the station by force while the Minbari were there, which was sort of the point?
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
I watched B5 briefly when it was still on TV and mistakenly decided it was garbage because I caught it well after it had started. Much later I decided to rewatch it after stumbling across a B5 mod for IW2 that got me interested and quickly liked it. I kinda disliked the first season since I already knew a few of the cast were going to vanish and I prefer Sheridan. I'm distinctly fond of Sheridan's speach he gives just before the 'big' showdown in 'The Long Night'.
As for the Vorlons and Shadows, I liked the story but unfortunatly B5 really falls down due to it's special effects which are certainly not aging well. The several attempts to try and continue the series have been woeful disappointments. I seem to recall they wanted to try and bring it back but JMS said it couldnt be done since so many of the original cast actors are dead or unavailable.
The EA didnt have any chance taking the Minbari on alone and their equipment was always shit for the most part. Spoiler
However, the EA was shown to be developing new weapons which resulted in those Omega Destroyer / Shadow Hybrids so eventually they might have been able to take the Minbari.
I figured the Shadow's were merely setting Earth up to get fucked so they could attempt to subvert Earth like they tried to do with the Centauri through Londo.
I liked the appearances from Mr. Bester but the telepath plot line really goes to shit with Lyta's antics but the series was kinda trailing for stuff to do after all the big fights have been done. They seemed to want to try and show the Telepath situation in B5's Spinoff but that got rightly cancelled before it even started for being a pile of garbage.
I think my favourite thing about B5 is the intro sequence. It changes between each season and does an interesting way of developing along with the series as season events go by. I found the music of B5 fitting as well.
Clarke's government isn't completely insane. They do have reason to believe they might do better next time.
Spoiler
Given the construction time necessary to build big ships, the Warlocks have to at least be in the concept stage and they undoubtedly have been given promises of dubious value from Morden. After the Mimbari are clearly Vorlon pawn/proteges and Clarke et. al. would make excellent proxies for the Shadow.
The Excellent Prismatic Spray. For when you absolutely, positively must kill a motherfucker. Accept no substitutions. Contact a magician of the later Aeons for details. Some conditions may apply.
Which sort of means they thought they DIDN'T have the means to take back the station by force while the Minbari were there, which was sort of the point?
Spoiler
That's rather an oversimplification. It's not all about "hey can we knock out this local Minbari task force", there's also the very troubling issue of "hey can we take on the whole Minbari fleet after we destroy three of their premier warships in an unwarranted attack?".
That said, the Earthforce reinforcements that showed up right after the first wave was defeated was probably insufficient to taking on three heavy cruisers and the White Star.
mr friendly guy wrote:Moreover, only Earthdome seemed to think they would be a match for the Minbari. In one episode Sheriden mentioned he didn't think they would match the Centauri and queried Earth force's ability to match the Narn
I don't think it was so much Earthdome as it was the right-wing elements of EA politics. Interestingly there's a bit of a spectrum there, ranging from "well, they might have beat us then, but now we've got new toys and we have experience from the first war, we'd totally do better in a rematch!" all the way to "we would have won if it weren't for fucking xenophile traitors".
"There is no "taboo" on using nuclear weapons." -Julhelm
What is Project Zohar? "On a serious note (well not really) I did sometimes jump in and rate nBSG episodes a '5' before the episode even aired or I saw it."- RogueIce explaining that episode ratings on SDN tv show threads are bunk
Which sort of means they thought they DIDN'T have the means to take back the station by force while the Minbari were there, which was sort of the point?
Spoiler
That's rather an oversimplification. It's not all about "hey can we knock out this local Minbari task force", there's also the very troubling issue of "hey can we take on the whole Minbari fleet after we destroy three of their premier warships in an unwarranted attack?".
Which would still mean they're just as outgunned as they were during the war.
That said, the Earthforce reinforcements that showed up right after the first wave was defeated was probably insufficient to taking on three heavy cruisers and the White Star.[/spoiler]
Spoiler
There was no WhiteStar around. It was three cruisers and Delenn's shuttle.
'Next time I let Superman take charge, just hit me. Real hard.'
'You're a princess from a society of immortal warriors. I'm a rich kid with issues. Lots of issues.'
'No. No dating for the Batman. It might cut into your brooding time.'
'Tactically we have multiple objectives. So we need to split into teams.'-'Dibs on the Amazon!'
'Hey, we both have a Martian's phone number on our speed dial. I think I deserve the benefit of the doubt.'
'You know, for a guy with like 50 different kinds of vision, you sure are blind.'
Watch that episode again, Batman. I am 99.9% certain that you're wrong.
EDIT: Make that 100% certain.
ThomasP wrote:Spoiler
I always thought it was Delenn's kick-ass speech that scared them off more than the warcruisers themselves
How did it go? Something about only one EarthForce captain has ever defeated a Minbari warship, and he was behind her?
Spoiler
"Only one human captain has ever survived battle with the Minbari fleet. He is behind me, you are in front of me. If you value your lives, be somewhere else."
