Bad design in Star Wars

[Vympel]

And here I was thinking the murmurs of disbelief in the briefing room, Wedge's complaint "that's impossible, even for a computer!" the demonstrated inability of the targeting computer to hit the target, and the fact that the only person who hit the target fired his torpedoes without its assistance and the aid of a supernatural force, was sufficient to demonstrate the extreme difficulty of the shot already.

As for 'curves' - what difference would that make? Those torpedoes didn't perform a hard turn into the exhaust port because they felt like it.

[Thanas]

What the heck? Haven't there been countless threads already about this? That the exhaust port was a trivial risk, a good tradeoff considering the enormous need for heat disposal and that the risk was negligible?

I guess ExarKun spent the last few years being disemboweled by yet another Gary Stu.

[Isolder74]

I think it's in Courtship of PRincess Leia where it is said that the Falcon has three different droid brains that actually caused the ship to argue with itself. I don't have the book onhand but it is mentioned in the Wookiepedia entries for the Falcon and Droid brains.

She mentions that Han told her that the Droid Brains bickered, then mentally voiced her suspicions that they were probably sabotaging each others' systems.

So I was correct in my assumption that 'computers' are basically just immobile droids. Perhaps in this advanced state of technology, what they consider a computer is based on size. Like how we don't call laptops, which are just mobile computers, computers anymore. For them a 'computer' is a 'Droid brain' that runs something the size of a spaceship or a city.

Well because the original computer for the Falcon wasn't able to handle all of the modifications the ship contained Han took 3 droid brains and stuck them together to make a computer that could handle all of the stuff slapped onto the ship. It's not that computers are immobile droids other then the fact that a droid brain can be modified to work as a computer.

[18-Till-I-Die]

And here I was thinking the murmurs of disbelief in the briefing room, Wedge's complaint "that's impossible, even for a computer!" the demonstrated inability of the targeting computer to hit the target, and the fact that the only person who hit the target fired his torpedoes without its assistance and the aid of a supernatural force, was sufficient to demonstrate the extreme difficulty of the shot already.

As for 'curves' - what difference would that make? Those torpedoes didn't perform a hard turn into the exhaust port because they felt like it.

Yes I was thinking the same, about Wedge's comment.

Really, we saw what happened when they tried it with JUST the computer: it didn't work. Like at all. Turns out the only way to make it really work is to have a sorcerer use his Force powers to guide the missile...something the Death Star designers could never have predicted.

[Havok]

2. There is no reason why that thing doesn't talk Basic. It already talks to people in its own language, you'd think it wouldn't be that hard to install a language package to interface with its own machine language. May be I can think that the machine language is wide-spread and engineers that deal with it know it, but it's an incredible stretch. The only good excuse I can think of is that they are old old machines whose production has stopped in favor of better ones, that can talk.

Why? Luke seems to understand binary just fine, Anakin too, so does Ahsoka, all the pilots and crew understand droid binary.

Not to mention Han, who can easily understand a droid, that seems to have a different noise pattern than R2, just fine while he was fixing the exterior of the Falcon.

[Ghost Rider]

And here I was thinking the murmurs of disbelief in the briefing room, Wedge's complaint "that's impossible, even for a computer!" the demonstrated inability of the targeting computer to hit the target, and the fact that the only person who hit the target fired his torpedoes without its assistance and the aid of a supernatural force, was sufficient to demonstrate the extreme difficulty of the shot already.

As for 'curves' - what difference would that make? Those torpedoes didn't perform a hard turn into the exhaust port because they felt like it.

Yes I was thinking the same, about Wedge's comment.

Really, we saw what happened when they tried it with JUST the computer: it didn't work. Like at all. Turns out the only way to make it really work is to have a sorcerer use his Force powers to guide the missile...something the Death Star designers could never have predicted.

The torpedo's systems did the turning. All the Force did was tell Luke when to fire.....just like the computer was trying to predict.

If Luke could guide those torpedos at that velocity and sudden shift...he would've laughed at Yoda's display with the X-Wing, let alone his lightsaber pulling ability in the beginning of ESB.

[18-Till-I-Die]

Really, is there a source of that? I'm not doubting it I'm actually curious, I just always interpreted it as a kind of telekinesis. But then that also makes sense, with their precognition and such I can imagine it can be used in a way similar to radar if needed. Was this mentioned in the novel? If so that explains it, I've never read the novel, I've just seen the movies.

[Darth Fanboy]

18, if it was up to Luke to guide the Torpedo all the way down the vent, I don't think he would have been able to pull away from the Death Star in time before his ship got trapped in the explosion.

[Thanas]

Really, is there a source of that? I'm not doubting it I'm actually curious, I just always interpreted it as a kind of telekinesis. But then that also makes sense, with their precognition and such I can imagine it can be used in a way similar to radar if needed. Was this mentioned in the novel? If so that explains it, I've never read the novel, I've just seen the movies.

There is the example of the other torpedoes fired by the squadron leader which exploded before going in. So those turned without telekinesis.

[Ghost Rider]

Really, is there a source of that? I'm not doubting it I'm actually curious, I just always interpreted it as a kind of telekinesis. But then that also makes sense, with their precognition and such I can imagine it can be used in a way similar to radar if needed. Was this mentioned in the novel? If so that explains it, I've never read the novel, I've just seen the movies.

The source is Empire Strikes Back.

Think about what I said about him having TROUBLE pulling a lightsaber out of the ice and you thinking he made nearly a 72000 G turn on two objects.

[The Original Nex]

Really, is there a source of that? I'm not doubting it I'm actually curious, I just always interpreted it as a kind of telekinesis. But then that also makes sense, with their precognition and such I can imagine it can be used in a way similar to radar if needed. Was this mentioned in the novel? If so that explains it, I've never read the novel, I've just seen the movies.

The source is Empire Strikes Back.

Think about what I said about him having TROUBLE pulling a lightsaber out of the ice and you thinking he made nearly a 72000 G turn on two objects.

How did the torpedo know when to turn into the shaft if it had no target? He turned the computer off. I agree that his lack of proficiency in TESB would suggest he'd be unable to accomplish such a feat, but how else did the torpedo do it?

[Thanas]

^How about: The torpedoes were programmed to turn after being released beforehand. They would turn after being released at a certain distance. Hence why the headset is not measuring target lock, but distance to release.

[Serafina]

^How about: The torpedoes were programmed to turn after being released beforehand. They would turn after being released at a certain distance. Hence why the headset is not measuring target lock, but distance to release.

Makes sense, especially if you consider the enormous jamming. Furthermore, the exhaust is propably not recognized by normal target lock programms.

[Batman]

Um-why not?

[FSTargetDrone]

Makes sense, especially if you consider the enormous jamming. Furthermore, the exhaust is propably not recognized by normal target lock programms.

Skip to 3:40:



They have all the details of the exhaust port's location, they know what it looks like, its size (2 meters wide) and they even have enough information to know that it is next to a larger, different port--it's all in the briefing we see.

I don't think it's a stretch to imagine that whatever the targeting/guidance systems that are used in the proton torpedoes, they can be programmed to recognize what the target looks like. In reality, that can be done with self-guided missiles today.

[JointStrikeFighter]

A target-contrast or image-recognition sensor might be able to do it, anything else would be masked by the Death Star's ECM as well as the sheer thermal output [presumably?] of the port itself.

[VF5SS]

Makes sense, especially if you consider the enormous jamming. Furthermore, the exhaust is propably not recognized by normal target lock programms.

Considering that entire sequence is just Lucas ripping off paying homage to the bomber raid in the Dam Busters I'd imagine the targeting computer with its twin vertical lines moving towards the center is directly inspired by the two pronged aiming device that showed the pilot when to release the torpedoes.

Maybe the exhaust port needed some intermittent mesh grating or something that would allow exhaust to pass through but impede or detonate any object attempting to come through it.

[Stark]

A target-contrast or image-recognition sensor might be able to do it, anything else would be masked by the Death Star's ECM as well as the sheer thermal output [presumably?] of the port itself.

It could just be inertial, or some kind of semi-intelligent 'blow up here plz' droid thing.

Mesh grates would only work on impact fused weapons, which in a cruise profile like this would be a bit silly.

[VF5SS]

Hey just make the grates out of some random Star Wars super material (or whatever they're made out of in vidjya games oh ho ho) and let the missile get stuck somewhere and burned itself out. No more blown up battlestation!

[nightmare]

Hey just make the grates out of some random Star Wars super material (or whatever they're made out of in vidjya games oh ho ho) and let the missile get stuck somewhere and burned itself out. No more blown up battlestation!

Except for, you know, the second torpedo. Or third or fourth, if their X-Wings had carried full ordnance.

[Darwin]

Hey just make the grates out of some random Star Wars super material (or whatever they're made out of in vidjya games oh ho ho) and let the missile get stuck somewhere and burned itself out. No more blown up battlestation!

Except for, you know, the second torpedo. Or third or fourth, if their X-Wings had carried full ordnance.

not as outlandish as you might think. Generally when performing ground attack, more than one pass is suicidal, as the defensive gunners know what to expect now.

And they were firing properly in pairs during the run. Considering that out of the entire attack force only two X-wings made it to the firing point, I don't think making more runs would be advisable. They didn't have time anyway.

[nightmare]

Hey just make the grates out of some random Star Wars super material (or whatever they're made out of in vidjya games oh ho ho) and let the missile get stuck somewhere and burned itself out. No more blown up battlestation!

Except for, you know, the second torpedo. Or third or fourth, if their X-Wings had carried full ordnance.

not as outlandish as you might think. Generally when performing ground attack, more than one pass is suicidal, as the defensive gunners know what to expect now.

And they were firing properly in pairs during the run. Considering that out of the entire attack force only two X-wings made it to the firing point, I don't think making more runs would be advisable. They didn't have time anyway.

We're discussing the concept of how bad the Death Star exhaust port design compromise was. The rebels might have had more fighters, and given that the single TIE squadron engaging them had dwindled, the defences were down to the remaining turbolaser turrets. Their chances may have been small, but the rebels could have improved them given time and resources. Just like the DS 2m exhaust port could have been given even more defences (although it was already thicker there). Grates, point defences, etc.

At the same time, any rebel attack would have been for naught if Tarkin had bothered to actually send out his own fighters. The question is this; was the compromise reasonable? I have to say yes, up until the point where the Death Star's plans were stolen.

[Thanas]

Considering the rebels tried to attack the DSI with a lucrehulk carrying 500+ X-wings and failed spectacularly before the DSI was even completed, I don't think one can fault the IMPs for not taking the threat of Starfighters too seriously.

[JointStrikeFighter]

A target-contrast or image-recognition sensor might be able to do it, anything else would be masked by the Death Star's ECM as well as the sheer thermal output [presumably?] of the port itself.

It could just be inertial, or some kind of semi-intelligent 'blow up here plz' droid thing.

Mesh grates would only work on impact fused weapons, which in a cruise profile like this would be a bit silly.

INS doesn't really work against moving targets. Maybe they had SPACE GPS!

[Simon_Jester]

Where, exactly, does 'has oodles of harddrive space' translate into 'the AI managing it can do whatever it wants?'

If we invent an AI, it is very likely to have recursive self-improvement capabilites: to think "I would be more efficient if I reprogrammed myself this way," actually doing that, and thus rapidly improving their capabilities. At which point it can become a threat in a variety of ways, especially if it has vastly more processing power than the minimum required to sustain human-level intelligence. Think about IG-88 in the Expanded Universe for an example.

In Star Wars, AI is a mature technology, so I suspect that most AIs are not equipped with this kind of self-improvement software. By taking away their ability to self-reprogram, or by greatly limiting that ability, you reduce the threat posed by a runaway AI. Of course, the downside is that you get robots like C3PO, who are very weak when it comes to adaptability and pattern recognition.

That's still shit security. No idiot robot could come into my office and access even personal email without uber haxx or authorisation. It seems more likely that R2 is just a haxx0r robot than the DS just habitually lets any idiot on a console know about sensitive political prisoners. His probe apparently fits codekey slots, so he's probably impersonating someone with his cyberdick.

More or less what I was getting at, though with a more interesting vocabulary.

So, if we take the conversation literally, 3PO is actually plugged-in to the ship's computer (though this isn't seen--does he have provisions to be linked via cable or some-such, say a built-in jack of some kind?) and he has some trouble with the ship's computer, wishing he had R2 around, presumably to translate (somewhat surprising, given his language library). Then again, he does say the ship has a "peculiar dialect."

A guess:

To C3PO, a programming language is just another language. The message he gets from the ship's computer is probably the equivalent of all those lines of confusing shit that flash past on the screen of your computer while it's starting up*. Moreover, some of the software is probably corrupted, unique, or otherwise screwy, so a lot of the error messages he's seeing don't make sense or have to be interpreted. Viewed through the lens of a translator droid's AI and vocabulary, that is a computer that speaks "a peculiar dialect," sort of like it's running a very heavily customized version of LINUX or something.

*At least, on my computer, which runs the UNIX-based Mac OS X.

But since 3PO doesn't have much of a technical database, R2 would probably be better at dealing with this problem than he would.

How did the torpedo know when to turn into the shaft if it had no target? He turned the computer off. I agree that his lack of proficiency in TESB would suggest he'd be unable to accomplish such a feat, but how else did the torpedo do it?

He turned off his targeting computer; the torpedoes may very well have had their own "terrain following" setup and guidance sensors. Red Leader's problem was that the X-wing's fire control released the torpedoes at the wrong moment and for some reason the torpedoes' onboard guidance couldn't compensate. Perhaps the torpedoes had a preprogrammed series of maneuvers so that they'd be able to steer their way down the exhaust pipe. In that case, if you put a torpedo on the wrong trajectory as it approaches the mouth of the pipe, it won't be able to correct because programmed to follow a specific course, not to home in on a moving target.