Disney buys Marvel

[une]

So for someone unfamiliar with the comics industry, what exactly is its business model, and how/why is it so fucked up?

The American comic book industry is odd, because it doesn't work like anything else in magazine publishing.

For one, comics rely heavily on the direct market to turn a profit. The direct market is another word for comic book stores. The direct market is special because all products sold on the direct market are non returnable. Usually in magazine publishing any unsold materials get returned to the publisher for a refund, but comics sold through the direct market cannot be returned. Comic book publishers like this because it's a for sure sale, but this practice has helped to significantly shrink the customer base because comic book stores by their nature only sell to people who are already comic fans. They do nothing to attract new readers.

Another thing is that the ratio of ads to content is very low compared to most magazines. Usually in magazine publishing most of the profit is made from selling ads, in fact many magazine publishers sell their product at a loss in order to increase their circulation numbers, but in American comics most of the profit is made from single copy sales. This is why comics are so expensive.

That's a very basic overview of the two things that are weird with the comics business model. I'm sure other people can chime in and tell you some of the other odd things with the industry.

[Havok]

IIRC the direct market, was the last big change in the way comics are distributed and that was in the late 70's or something.

[RedImperator]

So the comic book publishers won't accept returns of unsold books? That would certainly explain why I never see comics in the magazine section of bookstores or on newsstands. Which now that I think about it, is odd, because I'm sure plenty of people would pick up a copy of Superman or Batman or something on impulse. I probably would, at least once in a while.

[Stark]

That's the thing yeah; the way their model works they really can't position comics as 'regular' stuff - they remain niche for fat nerds (even the not superhero ones) because they don't get regular exposure. Their insistence on 'issues' instead of 'books' doesn't help either - people might pick up a complete story or TPB, but once they pick up a comic and realise it makes no sense without 3 other comics from two other titles separated by months, they've lost the mainstream audience.

I've been surprised the sort of people who are happy to read 'comics' when they're gathered, complete, not full of ads and not in comicbooks stores. My Wall 'o Absolute Editions is popular, even outside the nerdsphere, but normal people would never buy Batman Discotechque edition vol 3 #224 which continues on from Tales of Bat-Man vol6 #11a.

This audience selection is also why comics in general remain inane bullshit - their audience is inane idiots, and a wider audeince is difficult to capture without lots of press for a book (like Sandman for instance). It's vicious circles within vicious circles, with fat nerds at every level.

[Enigma]

So the comic book publishers won't accept returns of unsold books? That would certainly explain why I never see comics in the magazine section of bookstores or on newsstands. Which now that I think about it, is odd, because I'm sure plenty of people would pick up a copy of Superman or Batman or something on impulse. I probably would, at least once in a while.

Actually, I have personally seen comic books sold in Chapters bookstores and in several convenience\grocery stores. Crappy selection but they do sell them.

[Havok]

So the comic book publishers won't accept returns of unsold books? That would certainly explain why I never see comics in the magazine section of bookstores or on newsstands. Which now that I think about it, is odd, because I'm sure plenty of people would pick up a copy of Superman or Batman or something on impulse. I probably would, at least once in a while.

Not completely. There is still non direct market issues that are sold in grocery stores and places like Barnes and Nobles. The difference is on the cover, or at least it use to be, where the direct market versions have a picture or something down in the corner where the UPC code goes on the non direct market versions.

It is only the direct market, i.e. comic book shop versions, that can't be returned.

Thinking while I type this... I'm not sure when the last time I saw a comic book in a supermarket or grocery store was. I know B&N has comics, but I never noticed if they still have the UPC codes. Direct may indeed be the only way comics come now, even for the non comic shops.

[Havok]

That's the thing yeah; the way their model works they really can't position comics as 'regular' stuff - they remain niche for fat nerds (even the not superhero ones) because they don't get regular exposure. Their insistence on 'issues' instead of 'books' doesn't help either - people might pick up a complete story or TPB, but once they pick up a comic and realise it makes no sense without 3 other comics from two other titles separated by months, they've lost the mainstream audience.

I've been surprised the sort of people who are happy to read 'comics' when they're gathered, complete, not full of ads and not in comicbooks stores. My Wall 'o Absolute Editions is popular, even outside the nerdsphere, but normal people would never buy Batman Discotechque edition vol 3 #224 which continues on from Tales of Bat-Man vol6 #11a.

This audience selection is also why comics in general remain inane bullshit - their audience is inane idiots, and a wider audeince is difficult to capture without lots of press for a book (like Sandman for instance). It's vicious circles within vicious circles, with fat nerds at every level.

I disagree with quite a bit of this. Comics being distributed the old way, like magazines, almost completely killed the industry and that was when they had the broader scope of exposure you and Red are talking about. As I said, the direct market is actually what rejuvenated the comics industry when it came along, because in reality, no, most people didn't just pick up a random issue of Superman to check out.

It also allowed Bat-Man Dark Knight of Doom Issue 76 to actually be seen along with The Pedophile and the Boy Wonder Annual 2, and what ever other issues went along with it, so that you could actually purchase the entire story all at once.

On top of that, the physical issues themselves, were not treated like shit and stayed in good condition, unlike the magazine twirly racks.

AND you were able to have issues pulled for you, like a subscription, since that wasn't always an option to get, (I still think DC doesn't do direct mail subscriptions) by the staff that was just as nerdy as you and didn't look down on you for wasting your money on silly kids books.

Speaking of kids. Despite what we would all wish, the average comic books are for children. So audience selection isn't really an issue. That fatty nerds, like myself, still get them into their 30s isn't the fault of the industry targeting us. In fact that we refused to give up our comics is what has forced the industry to cater to the 20 and 30 and 40 somethings that still read comics and who demand more mature stories.

[Stark]

The pressure on spinning out more titles and then tying those titles together (in an attempt to trap people into reading multiple books) is odious regardless of whether it's aimed at kids or not. Even stupid superhero comics have good stories, but the way they're presented makes them very inaccessible to non fat nerds (frankly, it's almost impossible for a normal person to even know what 'comes next' in the current event-obsessed industry).

I remember some years ago hearing that the big two were actually somewhat hostile to TPB collections, since it undermined their stupid monthly model. Is there any basis to this? Most of the human race would never buy a comic that WASN'T a TPB.

The way comics are even sold at comic stores is dumb (from a normal person perspective, not a normal comic person perspective) going by comic stores in Brisbane. Needs more unique covers!

As for your last point... most nerds who still read Superman Punches A Guy in their 30s DON'T demand more mature stories. Just look at any JME + Steve Talk About Comics thread in FAN.

[Havok]

To be fair, the 'Big Event' is a product of the last 15 years or so, but I agree that is something that is hurting the industry, well at least the big two, far more than it is helping. I can't even keep track of what is coming next in the stories I follow and I need a fucking checklist, which is usually supplied in certain issues. And now every story arc has to have a name before hand and is on the cover, which is just fucking annoying.

Yeah the TPB thing did piss off the big two IIRC. They were pretty resistant to it, but I think they have fully embraced it now.

[Stark]

For sure, but the impression I have (as someone who's only been reading 'comics' for about 5 years) was that the event thing is a marketing ploy that's key to their business model now (ie forcing you to buy Wonder Woman etc).

The idea that TPBs are a bad thing is bizarre to me; who the fuck wants piles of loose issues bound by monkeys?

Oh right; nerds. Not people who want somethign to read on the train.

[Ghost Rider]

Barring the insane vicious circle that comics are with fans...here's the most inane problem, distribution.

Comics are all distributed under ONE company...well there are smaller ones but they are akin saying that your local mom and pop burger joint competes with McDonalds on the global scale. Because of this distribution control, Diamond, essentially dictates the market. The Big Two buy up ad space to sell to comic book store owners more then comic book fans. Thus a comic literally lives and dies on ad space. But because of the rising costs of a comic book versus other entertainment...it generally fails to make as much as it used to in the glorious speculator market of the 90's.

What does Disney bring? A larger capital base, but that depends on whether Marvel will have any real access or is it just a way for Disney to relaunch Carl Barks' dreams.

As for why the comic industry grudgingly went along with trades? They cost more to produce and can only be sold at a slight profit.

[Havok]

There is no balance between collecting and reading.
Once the companies realized that the fan base would buy the issues to keep boxed up in mylar AND will buy the TPB to actually read, they realized it was a goldmine, and as you have pointed out, it allows the non nerds to get into comic easier further expanding the fan base.

So the idea that TPBs are bizarre or only the purview of Sin City and Watchmen, has been dead for some time now.

[Stark]

Amusingly, TPBs are massively marked up in AU (like all comic products), with the cheapest being about 40AUD (or 35USD).

[une]

That's the thing yeah; the way their model works they really can't position comics as 'regular' stuff - they remain niche for fat nerds (even the not superhero ones) because they don't get regular exposure. Their insistence on 'issues' instead of 'books' doesn't help either - people might pick up a complete story or TPB, but once they pick up a comic and realise it makes no sense without 3 other comics from two other titles separated by months, they've lost the mainstream audience.

I've been surprised the sort of people who are happy to read 'comics' when they're gathered, complete, not full of ads and not in comicbooks stores. My Wall 'o Absolute Editions is popular, even outside the nerdsphere, but normal people would never buy Batman Discotechque edition vol 3 #224 which continues on from Tales of Bat-Man vol6 #11a.

This audience selection is also why comics in general remain inane bullshit - their audience is inane idiots, and a wider audeince is difficult to capture without lots of press for a book (like Sandman for instance). It's vicious circles within vicious circles, with fat nerds at every level.

I disagree with quite a bit of this. Comics being distributed the old way, like magazines, almost completely killed the industry and that was when they had the broader scope of exposure you and Red are talking about. As I said, the direct market is actually what rejuvenated the comics industry when it came along, because in reality, no, most people didn't just pick up a random issue of Superman to check out.

It also allowed Bat-Man Dark Knight of Doom Issue 76 to actually be seen along with The Pedophile and the Boy Wonder Annual 2, and what ever other issues went along with it, so that you could actually purchase the entire story all at once.

On top of that, the physical issues themselves, were not treated like shit and stayed in good condition, unlike the magazine twirly racks.

AND you were able to have issues pulled for you, like a subscription, since that wasn't always an option to get, (I still think DC doesn't do direct mail subscriptions) by the staff that was just as nerdy as you and didn't look down on you for wasting your money on silly kids books.

Speaking of kids. Despite what we would all wish, the average comic books are for children. So audience selection isn't really an issue. That fatty nerds, like myself, still get them into their 30s isn't the fault of the industry targeting us. In fact that we refused to give up our comics is what has forced the industry to cater to the 20 and 30 and 40 somethings that still read comics and who demand more mature stories.

The direct market did do a lot to save comics in when it was created, but I'm not sure if it was the best option.

One of the big problems with comics back in the 70's was that they were too cheap. Newsstands and other distributers made more money selling an issue of Playboy than they did selling an issue of a comic. Because of this newsstands had no incentive to stock comics and stopped selling them. This, along with some other factors, caused the sales of comics to shrink down to the point where the industry was in serious danger of collapsing.

The direct market was definitely able to give comic book publishers a safe haven to sell their comics and for sure source of income, but there might have been another way. Maybe, if the direct market had not come along, comic companies would have paid attention to what distributors were saying and changed the format of their comics into something a little more profitable for the newsstands.

Perhaps they would have switched to a large anthology style magazine, like Shonen Jump or 2000 AD. Basically, something more expensive than a standard sized comic, but much more attractive to newsstand distributors.

[Stofsk]

Amusingly, TPBs are massively marked up in AU (like all comic products), with the cheapest being about 40AUD (or 35USD).

Really? Wow. How many comic book stores do you have in Brisbane? I ask because when I've visited Sydney and went into what appears to be the only comic book store in the CBD there, I noticed right away that the prices are higher than they are down here in Melbourne. But we have quite a few comic book stores, so perhaps the competition between them keeps the prices lower than in say Sydney (or Brisbane).

They're still high though. I've seen oversized hard cover TPBs sell for $35AUD. (I bought a couple) From what I've noticed, TPBs softcovers have been selling anywhere between over $20 to $30. The combination of woeful stories with high prices is one of the reasons I think comics are stagnating.

[Stark]

I can think of 3 in the CDB, but they're all pretty low-rent affairs (one clearly being two fat guys in a loft). Borders is amusingly even more overpriced here, charging perhaps $220 for Absolute Sandman, when it's 67USD on Amazon. It is seriously cheaper to buy online and get the fastest shipping than buying at a store here.

Hell, the Conan TPBs I bought cost like $7 online. The Losers was about $16USD online, or $35-$40 in a shop (they're smaller 6-issue ones too).

[Uraniun235]

What does Disney bring? A larger capital base, but that depends on whether Marvel will have any real access or is it just a way for Disney to relaunch Carl Barks' dreams.

When I was a kid I was all over those Disney comics. Scrooge McDuck was is hell of rad.

[Gandalf]

The DC TPBs I've bought at conventions have cost me $20-$30.

Presumably, they're marked down a little to grab the casual observers. Therefore, I wait and buy them at that glorious annual event.

[Havok]

That's the thing yeah; the way their model works they really can't position comics as 'regular' stuff - they remain niche for fat nerds (even the not superhero ones) because they don't get regular exposure. Their insistence on 'issues' instead of 'books' doesn't help either - people might pick up a complete story or TPB, but once they pick up a comic and realise it makes no sense without 3 other comics from two other titles separated by months, they've lost the mainstream audience.

I've been surprised the sort of people who are happy to read 'comics' when they're gathered, complete, not full of ads and not in comicbooks stores. My Wall 'o Absolute Editions is popular, even outside the nerdsphere, but normal people would never buy Batman Discotechque edition vol 3 #224 which continues on from Tales of Bat-Man vol6 #11a.

This audience selection is also why comics in general remain inane bullshit - their audience is inane idiots, and a wider audeince is difficult to capture without lots of press for a book (like Sandman for instance). It's vicious circles within vicious circles, with fat nerds at every level.

I disagree with quite a bit of this. Comics being distributed the old way, like magazines, almost completely killed the industry and that was when they had the broader scope of exposure you and Red are talking about. As I said, the direct market is actually what rejuvenated the comics industry when it came along, because in reality, no, most people didn't just pick up a random issue of Superman to check out.

It also allowed Bat-Man Dark Knight of Doom Issue 76 to actually be seen along with The Pedophile and the Boy Wonder Annual 2, and what ever other issues went along with it, so that you could actually purchase the entire story all at once.

On top of that, the physical issues themselves, were not treated like shit and stayed in good condition, unlike the magazine twirly racks.

AND you were able to have issues pulled for you, like a subscription, since that wasn't always an option to get, (I still think DC doesn't do direct mail subscriptions) by the staff that was just as nerdy as you and didn't look down on you for wasting your money on silly kids books.

Speaking of kids. Despite what we would all wish, the average comic books are for children. So audience selection isn't really an issue. That fatty nerds, like myself, still get them into their 30s isn't the fault of the industry targeting us. In fact that we refused to give up our comics is what has forced the industry to cater to the 20 and 30 and 40 somethings that still read comics and who demand more mature stories.

The direct market did do a lot to save comics in when it was created, but I'm not sure if it was the best option.

One of the big problems with comics back in the 70's was that they were too cheap. Newsstands and other distributers made more money selling an issue of Playboy than they did selling an issue of a comic. Because of this newsstands had no incentive to stock comics and stopped selling them. This, along with some other factors, caused the sales of comics to shrink down to the point where the industry was in serious danger of collapsing.

The direct market was definitely able to give comic book publishers a safe haven to sell their comics and for sure source of income, but there might have been another way. Maybe, if the direct market had not come along, comic companies would have paid attention to what distributors were saying and changed the format of their comics into something a little more profitable for the newsstands.

Perhaps they would have switched to a large anthology style magazine, like Shonen Jump or 2000 AD. Basically, something more expensive than a standard sized comic, but much more attractive to newsstand distributors.

That wouldn't have been a bad idea, but at that point, comics were still pretty much purchased by kids and teenagers. Making a bigger format would have been great, but the cost of a larger book for kids with only quarters to spend probably wasn't the best way to go.

[Lonestar]

Amusingly, TPBs are massively marked up in AU (like all comic products), with the cheapest being about 40AUD (or 35USD).

Jesus Christ, are you serious? In the States you would only reach those prices if (1)it's a big honkin' TPB or (2)It's a TPB that had a relatively short print run.

[Vendetta]

That wouldn't have been a bad idea, but at that point, comics were still pretty much purchased by kids and teenagers. Making a bigger format would have been great, but the cost of a larger book for kids with only quarters to spend probably wasn't the best way to go.

If they wanted to print at the quality they do now, they couldn't move to a phonebook model.

In order to do that, they'd have to print like Weekly Shonen Jump does, on cheapass paper, mostly black and white except for a few attract pages. (Weekly Shonen Jump averages around 240 yen, which is about $2.60, for a phonebook a couple of hundred pages thick with ten or so different stories in, it shifts around 2.7 million copies weekly)

[Oskuro]

For an interesting (and amusing) overview of some of the worst practices of the comic industry, I recommend watching Atop The 4th Wall, especially the Countdown episodes.

I'm not very knowdledgeable about the industry, and Linkara's series is really interesting as it highlights many things I had missed by virtue of not reading comics regularly. So yeah, self-proclaimed non-comic-reading-fat-nerds can also learn about these things now!

[VF5SS]

You probably just want to watch the Countdown Prologue if you want to get the gist of what Linkara hates about the industry. He's a pretty good insider with some typical nerd hang ups like continuity.

[Vendetta]

Linkara sounds like such a comic book nerd. If you imagined beforehand what the arch comicbook nerd sounded like, you'd have imagined Linkara.

I very much suspects that he is one of those people that decries and hates the industry but continues to fluff up it's diseased erection by fellating it every month when it oozes something new out. There isn't a single creator owned or independent comic in all of his reviews, as I recall, they're all the latest wankers in tights books.

[mr friendly guy]

Amusingly, TPBs are massively marked up in AU (like all comic products), with the cheapest being about 40AUD (or 35USD).

Really? Wow. How many comic book stores do you have in Brisbane? I ask because when I've visited Sydney and went into what appears to be the only comic book store in the CBD there, I noticed right away that the prices are higher than they are down here in Melbourne. But we have quite a few comic book stores, so perhaps the competition between them keeps the prices lower than in say Sydney (or Brisbane).

They're still high though. I've seen oversized hard cover TPBs sell for $35AUD. (I bought a couple) From what I've noticed, TPBs softcovers have been selling anywhere between over $20 to $30. The combination of woeful stories with high prices is one of the reasons I think comics are stagnating.

$30-$40 AUD is what I find in Perth as well, although AFAIK we only have 2 major stores in the CBD, and one of them is not a specifically comic store per se, but mainly sells "geeky" collectables like lightsabers, Star Trek toys etc.

These days since I am lazy I just buy off ebay.