watching B5 for the first time and it seems good

[Stofsk]

That's one of the reasons the series has such a strong "what now?" vibe after the story arc is done.

JMS claimed that B5 was a five-year story. When it ended, he tried doing different things in the same universe, like Crusade and Legend of the Rangers, and both failed dismally. It seems JMS was a victim of his goals as much as he succeeded at them.

He reminds me of Frank Herbert actually. JMS once claimed that he wanted to do something like Dune for TV sci-fi, in other words a heavily plotted story in a carefully constructed setting. I think he emulated him a little too closely. Like Herbert, he tried writing in the same universe he created and those 'sequels' just simply weren't that good or interesting (and in some cases were idiotic). Spoiler

When I was watching Lost Tales I had to wonder why I should care about this Londo-lite Centauri Prince who was supposed to grow up and be evil thanks to Galen the TECHNO WIZARD telling Sheridan so. A lot of the TV movies are like that too, like Thirdspace (I never watched River of Souls, even though it has Martin Sheen in it IIRC), which has this massive threat from another dimension who conveniently get sorted out by the end of the film.

None of these really add to the B5 story, they're supposed to be self-containted... and that's the problem. If it doesn't fit in with the overall story arc, which was essentially dealt with by the show, it literally doesn't matter at all. So why should we as the viewers care about it?

Heavily plotted story arcs are good, but they are also limiting in a way episodic formats aren't. There is something to be said for striking a balance between the two formats.

[Uraniun235]

The most they could do to give B5 a new lease on life is remaster it, Star Trek style. Especially since the VFX on the DVDs are especially bad, since the high resolution versions of the shots were lost or some such.

But yeah, given the quality of the various movies (mostly pretty poor, except for In The Beginning) they should really just leave it.

I can't really see that happening in the near future. Warner Bros seems to hate Babylon 5 and/or JMS for some reason.

(Part of me wonders if someone was stubbornly obsessed with making sure WB didn't end up with its own Gene Roddenberry; frankly, I bet Paramount was thrilled that Gene died when he did.)

[Bilbo]

Spoiler

I remember watching Babylon5 when it first came out and really enjoying it. Years later I rented the DDs and watched it again. It was still enjoyable but not as much. I was surprised when I watched it quickly over a couple weeks just how short the Shadow War was. There were more episodes foreshadowing the Shadows and the war then there were of actual war.

The Rangers didnt bother me much. Someone commented on a secret warrior culture walking around in uniform, well this isnt Trek where everyone wears the same issued pajamas. In B5 you saw business people, aliens, hippies, Tibetan Monks, and others all walking around B5 on a regular basis. A few guys in some goofy robe like outfit isnt likely to draw any attention.

The blowing up of B5 was lame for the reasons mentioned. I know JMS wanted to make sure that every prophey came true but he could have found a better way. Instead of saying that it no longer served a purpose they could haed decided that while not that old the heavy abuse of the station has damaged its core structure to the point of being unsafe and too expensive to repair. Instead of just abandon it and let who knows what move into the place they decide to blow it up. Still a bit lame but better than the reason he gave.

Of the movies done only "In the Beginning" and "Thirdspace" were any good and the latter was only good for the space battle porn you got with it.

The Minbari were always funny for the rather hamfisted attempt to make warrior class equal right wing extremists and religious caste meant left wing extremist. I did like in the end how Delenn pointed out that both extremes have no business being in charge and its the normal hardworking people of Minbar who should lead.

I also loved how not every member of the different races dressed and acted the same. I mean holy shit, there was was actual mention that the Narn had different religions.

[Bilbo]

The most they could do to give B5 a new lease on life is remaster it, Star Trek style. Especially since the VFX on the DVDs are especially bad, since the high resolution versions of the shots were lost or some such.

But yeah, given the quality of the various movies (mostly pretty poor, except for In The Beginning) they should really just leave it.

I can't really see that happening in the near future. Warner Bros seems to hate Babylon 5 and/or JMS for some reason.

(Part of me wonders if someone was stubbornly obsessed with making sure WB didn't end up with its own Gene Roddenberry; frankly, I bet Paramount was thrilled that Gene died when he did.)

I thought part of the problem was JMS fought really hard to minimize outside influence on his shows. His butting heads with execs is what first mutated then killed Crusade, and ended his other series Jerimiah early.

[Skylon]

The most they could do to give B5 a new lease on life is remaster it, Star Trek style. Especially since the VFX on the DVDs are especially bad, since the high resolution versions of the shots were lost or some such.

But yeah, given the quality of the various movies (mostly pretty poor, except for In The Beginning) they should really just leave it.

I can't really see that happening in the near future. Warner Bros seems to hate Babylon 5 and/or JMS for some reason.

(Part of me wonders if someone was stubbornly obsessed with making sure WB didn't end up with its own Gene Roddenberry; frankly, I bet Paramount was thrilled that Gene died when he did.)

To be fair to the Warner Execs, B5 was one of the first TV series to get the full DVD treatment. They've also given JMS more other chances than some have gotten:
- Crusade - Killed by JMS having creative clashes with the network it was airing on.
- Legend of the Rangers - Which sucked beyond suck.
- The Lost Tales - Which was pretty fucking bad too.

B5 could stand to have a visual effects rework though, and if the series has done well enough on dvd, maybe it could warrant it when the show turns 20 or 25 years old. Apparently, while the series was shot formatted for widescreen, the visual effects shots were not as a cost saving measure (and since in the late 90's nobody even had an HDTV).

BTW: Who owns the broadcast rights to the series? Is it still Sci-Fi?

[CaptainChewbacca]

I think Scifi only had the rights for 5 or 10 years, then they reverted back to TNT. Lord knows if they had them they'd show the episodes. They even do a day of firefly once a year or so.

[Darth Wong]

Part of the problem was that JMS tied up too many loose ends, and left too little unexplained. Spoiler

All of the younger species' rivalries are neatly resolved when they band together to fight the Shadow War, and this alliance appears to hold intact afterwards. The Minbari civil war neatly resolves itself and everyone is happy with the outcome. The Vorlons and Shadows disappear from the galaxy. The Centauri get their comeuppance, and Vir takes over as a new breed of peace-loving Centauri leader. The Earth civil war ends neatly, with Sheridan getting everything he wants and needs.

At this point, what's left? In real-life, after the fall of the Axis Powers in WW2, they immediately had a new conflict: the cold war between the United States and the Soviet Union. There should have been some other obvious monumental threat after the end of the Shadow War, and I think it should have been the Minbari. They were the most obvious logical candidate, for many reasons. And the resolution of the Minbari Civil War was incredibly lame; the warrior caste should have taken over and the Minbari should have become an expansionist force to be feared. Sheridan's past ties to the Minbari would severely weaken him politically, Delenn would be forced to choose between her homeland and her husband, plenty of drama to go around.

But nooooo, instead we get alien threats which pop up out of nowhere and then disappear just as fast, or lame "Shadow helper" species whose entire cultural value system seems to be "to be as creepy and evil as possible".

[Anguirus]

^ What's funny is,
Spoiler

in the original outline for the show, not only do the Shadows not go away, but they stay in the background and manipulate the warrior-caste Minbari into being the main antagonist for the series. They were the ones who were going to slag B5 in the fifth year.

[Balrog]

Spoiler

To be fair, they never exactly got a lot of screen time to really flesh their character out; the Shadows had entire seasons dedicated to themselves, versus about half of Season 5 dedicated to the Drahk & co. working to upset the ISA. They were one of two loose ends that JMS had left unresolved after B5 (the other being the Telepath War), and unfortunately one was never explored while the other was killed in infancy. Instead we got DBZ weapon controls and demons in space.

A visual effects rework is probably off in the distant future, probably during an anniversary and Blu-rays/HDTVs are far more prevalent, but it would be awesome to see episodes like "Severed Dreams" using modern computer tech.

[Darth Wong]

Spoiler

To be fair, they never exactly got a lot of screen time to really flesh their character out; the Shadows had entire seasons dedicated to themselves, versus about half of Season 5 dedicated to the Drahk & co. working to upset the ISA. They were one of two loose ends that JMS had left unresolved after B5 (the other being the Telepath War), and unfortunately one was never explored while the other was killed in infancy. Instead we got DBZ weapon controls and demons in space.

Spoiler

Their behaviour made no sense; it's no wonder JMS made no attempt to "flesh it out". If they had an ounce of sense among them, they would have remained in the shadows instead of saying "Here we are, fuck you all, we're going to fuck you up just to be evil even though we gain absolutely nothing from this action and unite you all against us". After all, nobody really knew anything about them. They could have said anything they wanted and easily avoided hostilities, so what the fuck did they gain from initiating hostilities with, well, everyone at once? Answer: nothing. They are a plot device.

[ThomasP]

^ What's funny is,
Spoiler

in the original outline for the show, not only do the Shadows not go away, but they stay in the background and manipulate the warrior-caste Minbari into being the main antagonist for the series. They were the ones who were going to slag B5 in the fifth year.

Spoiler

This would have been so much better.

Am I misremembering, or was the goal to actually have B4 come into the future after the warrior caste blew up B5, and then have the show happen there? JMS was always so wish-washy about what he'd originally intended, and I was always getting the feeling that what we saw wasn't exactly as he'd planned.

I always thought the explanation for Babylon 4 going back in time to create Valen Sinclair was a bit out there; after seeing the original first-season episode where it reappeared, I'd just assumed that the guys from the future had stolen it.

[erik_t]

Spoiler

If we're still talking about the Drakh, there's no reason to expect them to behave terribly logically. As I recall (mind I haven't seen any B5 for much of my lifetime), they were Shadow servants for approximately forever. Taking away their driving cultural force, it's no wonder that they lash out in a thoroughly asinine ZOMG manner. That said, there's also no reason to think they'd be as cohesive a bad guy as I remember them being.

[Anguirus]

Spoiler

Babylon Squared was written to be ambiguous. JMS was that savvy at least. If Sinclair had stayed on the show, then yeah, they would be pulling it into the future to fight the Shadows. Sinclair = Valen (note that Valen isn't really name-dropped until season 2) wasn't the "original" plan, but it was a pretty awesome way to keep the story together after the big cast change (in much the same way that Vader = Anakin wasn't the "original" plan but who gives a fuck).

While there is some awesomeness in the original outline, Sinclair winds up being a borderline Mary Sue, and his child with Delenn is superomgawesome. Weirdly, the Earth Alliance stays a bunch of White Hats, who only turn on Sinclair because he's framed. Also, the five-year arc actually has a huge downer ending and requires a multi-year long spinoff series in which Sinclair, Delenn, and Mary Sue Kid use Babylon 4 to bring justice to the universe. And then at the very end Earth kicks Minbari ass, Mary Sue Kid rules the galaxy, and Sinclair gets to retire.

I'd actually be willing to bet that the show we got was better. Splitting Sinclair into two characters and making Earth the bad guys were both great IMO.

[ThomasP]

Spoiler

Babylon Squared was written to be ambiguous. JMS was that savvy at least. If Sinclair had stayed on the show, then yeah, they would be pulling it into the future to fight the Shadows. Sinclair = Valen (note that Valen isn't really name-dropped until season 2) wasn't the "original" plan, but it was a pretty awesome way to keep the story together after the big cast change (in much the same way that Vader = Anakin wasn't the "original" plan but who gives a fuck).

While there is some awesomeness in the original outline, Sinclair winds up being a borderline Mary Sue, and his child with Delenn is superomgawesome. Weirdly, the Earth Alliance stays a bunch of White Hats, who only turn on Sinclair because he's framed. Also, the five-year arc actually has a huge downer ending and requires a multi-year long spinoff series in which Sinclair, Delenn, and Mary Sue Kid use Babylon 4 to bring justice to the universe. And then at the very end Earth kicks Minbari ass, Mary Sue Kid rules the galaxy, and Sinclair gets to retire.

I'd actually be willing to bet that the show we got was better. Splitting Sinclair into two characters and making Earth the bad guys were both great IMO.

Spoiler

Interesting. Some of that does sound pretty lame, yeah.

Still, the Minbari warrior caste-as-enemy would have fit right in to the now-official story, what with their civil war, even with the other changes. Not like the Shadows weren't pretty well messing with everybody by that point.

[Samuel]

Spoiler

If we're still talking about the Drakh, there's no reason to expect them to behave terribly logically. As I recall (mind I haven't seen any B5 for much of my lifetime), they were Shadow servants for approximately forever. Taking away their driving cultural force, it's no wonder that they lash out in a thoroughly asinine ZOMG manner. That said, there's also no reason to think they'd be as cohesive a bad guy as I remember them being.

Spoiler

Yeah, but there is no reason to assume that being a servant of the Shadows meant you had to be puppy killing evil. After all, the Shadows MO was to get various lesser races fighting amoung themselves. Given the Drakh didn't appear until after the war was over I am guessing their job was insuring that no one tresspassed into Shadow space, gathering intelligence, picking up operatives and the like. None of this requires them to be evil. In fact the easiest way for this to work is for the Shadows to pick a race that is technologically backward, wow them with their power and offer them protection in return for their loyalty and service. Remember that the Shadows only look intrinsically evil because the Vorlons have altered everyone so that they see the universe that way. Without that it is possible that the Shadows would appear to be... normal.

[Hotfoot]

Spoiler

If we're still talking about the Drakh, there's no reason to expect them to behave terribly logically. As I recall (mind I haven't seen any B5 for much of my lifetime), they were Shadow servants for approximately forever. Taking away their driving cultural force, it's no wonder that they lash out in a thoroughly asinine ZOMG manner. That said, there's also no reason to think they'd be as cohesive a bad guy as I remember them being.

Spoiler

Yeah, but there is no reason to assume that being a servant of the Shadows meant you had to be puppy killing evil. After all, the Shadows MO was to get various lesser races fighting amoung themselves. Given the Drakh didn't appear until after the war was over I am guessing their job was insuring that no one tresspassed into Shadow space, gathering intelligence, picking up operatives and the like. None of this requires them to be evil. In fact the easiest way for this to work is for the Shadows to pick a race that is technologically backward, wow them with their power and offer them protection in return for their loyalty and service. Remember that the Shadows only look intrinsically evil because the Vorlons have altered everyone so that they see the universe that way. Without that it is possible that the Shadows would appear to be... normal.

Oh for the love of...
Spoiler

The Drakh were pissy because as a result of the war, the Shadows destroyed their homeworld. THAT is why they are so pissed the hell off. They lashed out at everyone they saw as responsible because they didn't know or understand why the Shadows left. The Shadows left with Lorien and Za'ha'dum went on self-destruct shortly thereafter. No detailed reason was given, like, "Sorry guys, had an epiphany, see you in five million years", just..boom. You don't just go from trying to set up the downfall of dozens of stellar nations to being without your superweapon-making masters and displaced from your seat of power without being a little pissed off people. Imagine that during the cold war, boom, the national governments of the USA and USSR just up and disappear, no word, but all the spies, armies, etc. are still in play. Do hostilities just cease? I doubt it. Same thing here.

As for the Shadows and Vorlons, they're BOTH evil. They both lost the plot thousands of years ago and went batshit crazy. The Shadows manufactured wars to select out the stronger races, and the Vorlons genetically manipulated telepaths to be secret weapons against the Shadows. The Vorlons didn't alter anyone to see things their way, it's not like people were genetically altered to see thing from their perspective, because damn near everyone seems to disagree with them. They meddled, sure, and yes, they did insert themselves as angelic beings to many worlds cultures, but that's sort of because they were angelic beings of energy, and each race that viewed it saw what they wanted to see. Note that Londo didn't, and yet there are Centauri telepaths, while G'kar saw it and there are no Narn telepaths. Think about that.

But yes, both races were batshit crazy, because they both assumed that their way was right and best and the other was getting in the way of the true enlightenment of other races, and thus they engaged in their millennia-long cold war with each other. It wasn't until the issue was pressed that they started going after each other directly, and even then, they both tried to take out the allies of the other side first with the Planet Killers.

[Samuel]

Spoiler

Imagine that during the cold war, boom, the national governments of the USA and USSR just up and disappear, no word, but all the spies, armies, etc. are still in play. Do hostilities just cease? I doubt it. Same thing here.

Spoiler

Probably. After all, they have lost everything so now the groups that are weaker can kick their asses. Unless they have absolutely no self-control or intelligence they will not immediately lash out.

Spoiler

, while G'kar saw it and there are no Narn telepaths. Think about that.

There were, but they all died out/were killed.

http://worldsofjms.com/b5/governments/narn.htm
Spoiler

The Narn are the only major race without telepaths. Narn telepaths called "mind walkers" did exist until the Human Thirteenth Century, but at that time most Narn carriers of the telepath gene were wiped out by the Shadows.

[rhoenix]

Damn, this turned into a spoiler-fest.

I got disc1/3 of Season 3 yesterday, seeing the first 4 episodes. The White Star is a sexy, sexy ship, I have to admit. G'Kar is developing into a truly interesting character.

More will have to wait until I get the other disks. But so far, I really am enjoying Babylon 5 overall more than any Trek series (except maybe DS9, and now I'm seeing parallels).

[Hotfoot]

Spoiler

Probably. After all, they have lost everything so now the groups that are weaker can kick their asses. Unless they have absolutely no self-control or intelligence they will not immediately lash out.

Spoiler

Really? They know that they can no longer pull of crazy shit? I mean, they still have access to a lot of Shadow Technology, which gives them a huge leg up. Their plan to make Centauri Prime burn works pretty damn well, and they cultivated that over the course of several years. They worked in the shadows for a long time, though admittedly the assault on Earth with the modified Shadow Planet Killer was a bit stupid, but I forget the details behind that.

In the main series though, they weren't "Lashing out", they were working behind the shadows to fuck over their enemies. They were pretty slick about it for a while too.

There were, but they all died out/were killed.

Spoiler

Yes, but you see, that's the extent, the very limit to what the Vorlons did genetically to the various races. The Shadows wiped out the Vorlon touch from the Narn, but the Narn could still see Kosh's true form. Meanwhile, the Centauri had obviously been modified by the Vorlons, but Londo couldn't see him. Therefore, the "true form" sight isn't something that was genetically modified into any given race, as was implied.

[Samuel]

Conceded on appearence although that raises more questions.

As for lashing out...

Spoiler

They know that they can no longer pull of crazy shit?

Spoiler

I'm assuming they got it from the Shadows. The Shadows are now gone. They aren't going to get more of their stuff ever again and are limited to what they managed to pillage from their homeworld before it went boom.

Spoiler

Their plan to make Centauri Prime burn works pretty damn well, and they cultivated that over the course of several years.

Spoiler

Yeah, but I never really got why they did that. They managed to insure they had an ally, but one that had been devestated and weakened and was a pariah. What was the point? More choas?

Spoiler

In the main series though, they weren't "Lashing out", they were working behind the shadows to fuck over their enemies. They were pretty slick about it for a while too.

Spoiler

I was refering to immediately attacking the Mimbari and Delen.

[Anguirus]

Spoiler

Yeah, but I never really got why they did that. They managed to insure they had an ally, but one that had been devestated and weakened and was a pariah. What was the point? More choas?

1) The Drakh hate the Centauri.
2) The Drakh want a client state to hide behind that is utterly beholden to them and used as a shield against any possible reprisals.

They do manage to accomplish this, and its elaborated upon in Peter David's novel trilogy. It actually backfires...the Drakh use Centauri pawns to build a huge, advanced fleet that they intend to have the Centauri use against the ISA. Londo manages to get info about the Drakh to Vir and cover it up, and Vir helps the technomages destroy the shipyard that the Drakh are using to build planet-killers. In return, two technomages help Vir set up a resistance movement. Vir is actually leading a popular assault on the palace during the future-time events of "War Without End." Londo refuses to willingly open fire on his own people, so the Drakh set off their bombs and kill millions. Londo appears to go into a drunken stupor, but as we see in the TV episode he and G'Kar sacrifice themselves to save the day. Then Garibaldi and Vir manage to track down the Drakh who was controlling Londo and give him a PPG bath. Emperor Vir then uses the awesome ships the Drakh had built to pursue them through the galaxy. The books are worth reading for Vir's character development alone, as "Sleeping in Light" kind of made a joke about him being emperor, but in the novels he earns that shit.

[PREDATOR490]

If your at Season 3 then watching 'In the Beginning' movie should be on your list about now if you havent watched it already. Thirdspace happens somepoint later, I think Season 4 but it has no effect on the series so not a 'must see' to understand stuff later. The other films you can literally write off until the end of Season 5.
River of Souls is really boring and Call to Arms is somewhat interesting due to the Excalibur's appearance which was created just to setup the premise for the spin-off Crusade. After that you can watch The Lost Tales then the final S5 Episode 'Sleeping in Light' to finish all of B5 properly.

[rhoenix]

If your at Season 3 then watching 'In the Beginning' movie should be on your list about now if you havent watched it already. Thirdspace happens somepoint later, I think Season 4 but it has no effect on the series so not a 'must see' to understand stuff later. The other films you can literally write off until the end of Season 5.
River of Souls is really boring and Call to Arms is somewhat interesting due to the Excalibur's appearance which was created just to setup the premise for the spin-off Crusade. After that you can watch The Lost Tales then the final S5 Episode 'Sleeping in Light' to finish all of B5 properly.

Excellent, thank you. I am patiently awaiting the rest; I'm anxious to see how things unfold in S3, given the setups in previous seasons - especially now that Vir will be on the Minbari homeworld. This makes me think he might become a Ranger, and there to shank a Shadow ambassador at some point. At least, I'm hoping.

[Batman]

Other than the continuity discrepancies (which were mostly visual) I rather liked 'The Gathering' myself, but that one and 'ItB' ARE the only movies you really need to watch. Thirdspace I enjoyed for the battleporn but it had no effect whatsoever on the actual storyline, and River of Souls I hardly even remember. ActA would have been nice if anything worthwhile had ever come off it.
And WRT spinoffs not working, I think that was inevitable. As has been mentioned before, B5 was meant to be a TV novel. The story was supposed to END when the series did.
And in a just world, it would have.

As for the 'Lost Tales', they weren't...BAD as such. They were simply not FITTING. If they HADN'T been B5 tales, they might have made for entertaining SciFi TV.

[Ghost Rider]

If your at Season 3 then watching 'In the Beginning' movie should be on your list about now if you havent watched it already. Thirdspace happens somepoint later, I think Season 4 but it has no effect on the series so not a 'must see' to understand stuff later. The other films you can literally write off until the end of Season 5.
River of Souls is really boring and Call to Arms is somewhat interesting due to the Excalibur's appearance which was created just to setup the premise for the spin-off Crusade. After that you can watch The Lost Tales then the final S5 Episode 'Sleeping in Light' to finish all of B5 properly.

Excellent, thank you. I am patiently awaiting the rest; I'm anxious to see how things unfold in S3, given the setups in previous seasons - especially now that Vir will be on the Minbari homeworld. This makes me think he might become a Ranger, and there to shank a Shadow ambassador at some point. At least, I'm hoping.

Vir's future...is interesting.

The only problem of In the beginning is the sheer amount of spoilage it does. The start and end of the film pretty much reveals huge parts of the story well before you should know. It is something that watch after season 5 to get the missing holes.