Potential theory on Borg KE Shielding...

[Robert Walper]

Robert Walper, that was probably the stupidest thing you could have said. It basically makes your entire argument totally void.

If you're not going to debate in terms of science, then shut the fuck up and go play tennis or something.

Why not simply not read any of my arguements since my approach bothers you? Apparently you are willing to expend effort to read and critize something you don't like. Waste of time in my opinion, so don't go flaming me because you don't like what I say. I do not flame someone because I don't like what they have to say. I either ignore it, or attempt to debate it civilized with the knowledge nothing is really being done, but its fun.

[Robert Walper]

Walper, I liked your original theory, but I don't think that it is very likely. It is in clear violation of Occam's Razor (you continuously add more terms to the mess, rather than just eliminating the original term you added to solve the problem). The simplest explanation, here, is that the Borg have not equipped their combat drones with KE shields because they cannot. This may be because of an energy problem, or because of some other technical problem that the Borg have in implementing the KE shielding, but it appears relatively clear that your theory, while original and creative and somewhat thought provoking, fails to explain everything correctly.

Do you think the theory is virtually unworkable, or that other examples must be addressed before it could be accepted as a reasonable, but not proven, theory?

[Master of Ossus]

The problem here is that I don't see that any theory is workable. It is just inconsistent that the Borg have not equipped combat drones with KE shields. I think that the only explanation (which is weak) is that they have been unable to for technical reasons.

I just don't think that any theory can fully explain the Borg's vulnerabilities to certain weapons and not to others, etc. Not that yours was not a good effort, but I don't see how any theory can successfully explain everything on this issue.

[Robert Walper]

The problem here is that I don't see that any theory is workable. It is just inconsistent that the Borg have not equipped combat drones with KE shields. I think that the only explanation (which is weak) is that they have been unable to for technical reasons.

I just don't think that any theory can fully explain the Borg's vulnerabilities to certain weapons and not to others, etc. Not that yours was not a good effort, but I don't see how any theory can successfully explain everything on this issue.

Perhaps you're right. From my perspective, the question is really still up in the air. The only thing I'm trying to do is see if reasoning examples and my theory can make one lean in the direction "Well, it certainly is possible, perhaps even likely."

[NecronLord]

Well you probably can elimintate momentum if your technology is sufficiently advanced, But the feds have never demonstrated that ability. Indeed the fact that they can play fed tennis while at warp shows that the interial dampeners simply conserve reletive momentum with the ship, Ie apply forces. Merely because they are called intertial damperners does not mean that they are an intertia removal feild, by that logic the transporters should be called the "rip you apart and put you back togeter device."

[Ted C]

Hey, Ted, have you seen the DS9 episode where Quark was shot by an energy weapon at close range and blasted across his entire bar? Energy weapons seem to have KE effects quite often. I'm sure you'd agree on seeing many inicidents where victims of phasers and other energy weapons are hurled off their feet or knocked over.

You'll note, however, that there is no sign of recoil in the weapon itself. This means that the beam is not actually carrying significant momentum, and the force is somehow being generated after the beam contacts the target. Mike has a hypothesis for that on his phaser page.

What if the Borg apply inertia dampeners on their drones to compensate for momentum. After all, we do see Borg recoil from hits on their shields from energy weapon, like scenes in ST: First Contact.

And in "Deja Q" and "Best of Both Worlds" we saw phaser beams have no effect whatsoever through the Borg shields. I don't even recall the incident your describing in First Contact.

Unless it as well employed some type of technology commonly referred to as "inertia dampeners".

You're eager to pile the technological capabilities into that little communicator, aren't you...

I find it hard to believe Worf could access forcefield generators on the holodeck system when simply turning the program off was beyond his capability.

The program that allowed holodeck control was corrupted, but most of the ship's other systems were still working fine. They still had life support, sensors, navigation, turbolifts, doors, etc. No reason to think the security fields were out of order.

He utilized the communicator as a power source, but apparently built the device using components salvaged from holodeck materials.

Let's face it, we have little idea what he really did, but the laws of physics don't support that little combadge operating as the source of a force field that could deflect bullets without the wearer so much as twitching.

[Singular Quartet]

He utilized the communicator as a power source, but apparently built the device using components salvaged from holodeck materials.

Let's face it, we have little idea what he really did, but the laws of physics don't support that little combadge operating as the source of a force field that could deflect bullets without the wearer so much as twitching.

Ted, I was under the assumption that holographic bullets were just holograms and forcefeilds, and thus didn't have mass... Or perhaps Warf used the communicator to hack the holomatrix and have a holographic forcefeild projected(Do you know of a better way to defelct holographic bullets)

However, judging from this, I would be able to clean house against the borg using only <Blade of the Immortal Refrence>Uruma's ondeko-bachi(Imagine a really big meatcleaver) or Anotsu's Habutsuchi(either one will do, but the axe-thingy is preferable)</Blade of the Immortal Refrence>

[Master of Ossus]

The holodeck utilizes real objects, whenever possible. It would have to utilize real bullets, because of the potential for weapons to be carried off of the holodeck (it would also have to use real guns). The holodeck's usage of real objects (as opposed to holographic projections) has been demonstrated on numerous occasions, for instance when Wesley falls into a pool and is still wet well after he leaves the holodeck, or when Bashir and O'Brien consistently take costumes off of the holodeck.

[Zoink]

The simplest explanation, here, is that the Borg have not equipped their combat drones with KE shields because they cannot.

Occams razor gives the most likely or prefered theory, the one you should investigate before looking at others. It doesn't mean that this *IS* the reason why. You can use Occam's razor to say that your theory is more likely than his, but you can't use it (by itself) to invalidate someones theory.

If I'm the only one in a room with a dead body, the police will investigate me first, doesn't mean I did it though.

Maybe after a millinia of assimilation, the number of saved drones didn't warrant the cost of mass producing KE shielding.

I certainly wouldn't use the same reasoning explain why borg drones aren't equipped with energy weapons: they cannot.

[Master of Ossus]

I already dealt with all of this. Walper did not investigate the possibility that the Borg cannot create KE shields on a drone for drone level first, even though it is the simplest explanation (by far). His new theory then added numerous terms to the problem, in clear violation of Occam's Razor.

Remember that only combat drones need to be equipped with KE shields, and that we have actually seen almost as many Borg downed to KE weapons than phaser fire. The resources required to build a system similar to Worf's KE shield from "Fistfull..." is insignificant next to the resources required to construct/assimilate a drone. It is inconceivable that they would not have provided their drones with KE shields before, unless they could not have done so for technical reasons. The cost:benefit ratio is far too small to justify their lack of interest in the project.

[Zoink]

The holodeck utilizes real objects, whenever possible. It would have to utilize real bullets, because of the potential for weapons to be carried off of the holodeck (it would also have to use real guns). The holodeck's usage of real objects (as opposed to holographic projections) has been demonstrated on numerous occasions, for instance when Wesley falls into a pool and is still wet well after he leaves the holodeck, or when Bashir and O'Brien consistently take costumes off of the holodeck.

I don't follow. If you wanted to prevent dangerous weapons from leaving the holodeck, wouldn't they be made from holograms?

Wouldn't the *easiest* way to make a "safety-protocol-compliant" gun be to have a hard-holographic gun with intangible bullets? Then, to turn safety protocols off, make the bullets "hard"?

Given that holodecks can make holographic material: It seems rather involved to make a real gun, fire real bullets, then have somekind of dematterializing beam eliminate the bullet before it kills someone. Not a very fail-safe design.... of course it is Trek-like to have things this way

It is inconceivable that they would not have provided their drones with KE shields before, unless they could not have done so for technical reasons. The cost:benefit ratio is far too small to justify their lack of interest in the project.

I pretty much agree with you, the borg should have KE shielding if they CAN do it. Possibly: KE shields interfere with their other shields, which are more important.

I also think drones should have an energy weapon (at least for stun). Because even IF they can't build KE shields, an offensive solution can be as effective as a defensive one. A wide-beam stun weapon would effectively counter a machine-gun wielding soldier or a Jackie Chan supersoldier (at least, more so than that zombie walking "ooo! I'm gonna stick you" attack they use).

But to defend my less-than-perfect explanation: If the borg have 5 trillion drones (argument's sake only!), and the number of drones saved last year by having KE shielding was 1024, then maybe 5 trillion simple KE shields is too costly because the borg don't care about 1024 drones.

[Ted C]

Ted, I was under the assumption that holographic bullets were just holograms and forcefeilds, and thus didn't have mass... Or perhaps Warf used the communicator to hack the holomatrix and have a holographic forcefeild projected(Do you know of a better way to defelct holographic bullets)

There are some indications that, with the safety systems deactivated (and they're invariably the first things to fail on the holodeck... the things are deathtraps), the holodeck replicates dangerous objects instead of simply projecting an image. I was actually giving the device some "benefit of the doubt" when assuming it had to somehow handle the momentum of a genuine bullet.

[Darth Wong]

Remember: conclusions are supposed to come after analysis, not before. We can see that Worf is not subjected to any noticeable impulse from the bullets. Therefore, we are observing a low momentum-exchange situation. Any rational theory should seek to explain that observation using only the minimum number of necessary and observable terms.

Walper is doing the opposite: he starts with a theory (that it was a high momentum-exchange scenario), finds that its predictions do not fit observation, and then invents extra mechanisms (inertia elimination) without a shred of support in dialogue or observation in order to force the data to fit his theory.

This is not a matter of physics knowledge, or (as Walper tries to claim) unfairly altering Trek to force it into known physics; the "no momentum" explanation does not alter Trek canon at all, nor does it introduce extra terms into the equation. It is a matter of basic rational, objective method, which Walper has never been able to grasp.

[Ted C]

The holodeck utilizes real objects, whenever possible. It would have to utilize real bullets, because of the potential for weapons to be carried off of the holodeck (it would also have to use real guns). The holodeck's usage of real objects (as opposed to holographic projections) has been demonstrated on numerous occasions, for instance when Wesley falls into a pool and is still wet well after he leaves the holodeck, or when Bashir and O'Brien consistently take costumes off of the holodeck.

[Master of Ossus]

Are you disagreeing with me, again, or agreeing with me and changing your position on the matter? Weapons can be replicated either in the holodeck or in personal replicators (like the ones found in peoples' quarters in DS9, TNG, VOY). This was demonstrated when Ezri's friend died, and Odo & co. were chasing a man for accessing the replicator files for the type of rifle used. Since I find it unlikely that personal replicators could be used to make components for weapons without automatically registering the said weapon with station security, I find it likely that the said weapon was constructed on the holodeck. Odo was able to find out about it, he just appeared to have a harder time of tracking the weapon than he should have if he had just needed to do a search of some records in the station's security registry.

[Ted C]

Are you disagreeing with me, again, or agreeing with me and changing your position on the matter? Weapons can be replicated either in the holodeck or in personal replicators (like the ones found in peoples' quarters in DS9, TNG, VOY). This was demonstrated when Ezri's friend died, and Odo & co. were chasing a man for accessing the replicator files for the type of rifle used. Since I find it unlikely that personal replicators could be used to make components for weapons without automatically registering the said weapon with station security, I find it likely that the said weapon was constructed on the holodeck. Odo was able to find out about it, he just appeared to have a harder time of tracking the weapon than he should have if he had just needed to do a search of some records in the station's security registry.

Actually, I was, for the most part, agreeing, but I a transfer error caused my submission to go bad. I was just pointing out the small caveat that costumes aren't usually part of the holodeck illusion; users typically dress appropriately before they enter. Holodecks must replicate numerous things in the environment though, especially food items.

[omegaLancer]

If Force fields ( at least the star trek kind) cannot negate the momentum of physical object, one would wonder why the Borg have not adapted a form of battle armor. It would be nothing to for the Borg to clad themselve in a hi tech material that would protect them from physical blows, and redistribute the force over the borg entire body than one small area..

The borg drone could be knock down by suffecient force, but not cripple or killed... They still have their force fields against energy attacks. Humm maybe the Borg are not that advance after all...

[Patrick Ogaard]

There is at least one canon cannon in the otherwise rather abominable ST:Voyager. Specifically, it's mentioned and demonstrated in the Voyager episode in which 7 of 9, encouraged by the EMH, works herself into hysterical accusations regarding "recovered" memories and drives a blameless arms merchant to his death.

The weapon is a so-called isokinetic cannon (again with the all-important iso prefix, and I'm sure the more powerful version would be the quantum isokinetic cannon). It blasted a very large, very neat hole into a floating target made of several meters' thickness of monotanium (or some other -tanium). Voyager did not apparently acquire the weapon, but it does seem like an almost ideal anti-starship weapon, especially an anti-cube weapon. Maybe someone in the Delta Quadrant was thinking actual thoughts about how to defeat the Borg without resorting to complex metastable subterfuge and legerdemain.

[Singular Quartet]

The holodeck utilizes real objects, whenever possible. It would have to utilize real bullets, because of the potential for weapons to be carried off of the holodeck (it would also have to use real guns). The holodeck's usage of real objects (as opposed to holographic projections) has been demonstrated on numerous occasions, for instance when Wesley falls into a pool and is still wet well after he leaves the holodeck, or when Bashir and O'Brien consistently take costumes off of the holodeck.

Bashir and O`brien take costumes off of the holodeck I'' grant that, but they also take them onto the holodeck! As to Wesley being wet... <insert witty and insulting comment about his sexuality here>

We don't know about its use of real objects. For one thing, using real objects would be a flamboyant waste of energy.

[Master of Ossus]

We don't know about its use of real objects. For one thing, using real objects would be a flamboyant waste of energy.

I agree. It's a flamboyant use of energy that is seriously wasteful, but there was clearly real water on the holodeck, and the little replicators they have in people's quarters are not big enough to create a rifle. Since shipments from Earth are unusual on DS9, and since O'Brien and Bashir seem to have a tremendous wardrobe to choose from, including little toy soldiers and a large model of the Alamo, I think it would be more likely that they are building those on the holodeck than ordering them through LL Bean, or whatever catalogues they have in the 24th century. I also find it unlikely the Keiko would be able to manufacture all of them for her husband and his friend, and I don't think that the Bajorans would be manufacturing things like that, especially since everyone else finds their holosuite programs funny (and probably does not use similar programs).