Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

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Lord MJ
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Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Lord MJ »

I'm starting to think that the US is screwed due to two irreconcilable ideological camps within this country.

One of which simply can't be reasoned with. Take these two statements for instance
No one should die because they cannot afford health care, and no one should go broke because they get sick.
Conservative Counter:
No one should be legislated into poverty because other people cannot afford healthcare, and no one should go broke because someone else got sick.
How can there be any progress with two views completely at odds with each other. I mean how can you convince the conservative side of the merits of UHC when they view it as an assault against them.

One could say that the dems should just ignore the other side and push their agenda. But then when the conservatives get back into power they won't hesitate to do the same.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

Lord MJ wrote:How can there be any progress with two views completely at odds with each other. I mean how can you convince the conservative side of the merits of UHC when they view it as an assault against them.
You can't; on the whole they are either beyond reason, or they simply don't care because THEY aren't suffering. Either they hold as an article of faith that Government Is Always Bad, or they just don't care about the welfare of the country as a whole, so they don't really care what the actual merits of UHC are.
Lord MJ wrote:One could say that the dems should just ignore the other side and push their agenda. But then when the conservatives get back into power they won't hesitate to do the same.
But as they've demonstrated when they WERE in power that's exactly what they will do anyway. There's really no point in trying to meet the Republicans halfway, or in showing restraint in hopes that they will return the favor. They don't compromise, and they will run roughshod over the Democrats if they can regardless of how the Democrats treat them.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Edi »

The American right wing has long been in loony la-la-land, so the only way to make actual progress is simply push them aside and ignore their screeching. They always whine, whether they are in power or out and have absolutely no intention of even trying to cooperate on any issues. So fuck them. They are as powerful as they are only because they are given that much power willingly by spineless, incompetent political opponents.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Einhander Sn0m4n »

If we ignore them, they'll resort to knives and clubs, then guns and bombs; in which case we PROSECUTE the ever-fucking shit out of the bastards however many times they break the 'no killing/maiming/stealing/etc from your neighbor because he's a damn dirty $MINORITY$' hate crime laws.

Every. Fucking. Time. It's unfortunate that there will be at least a dozen iterations of this shit with the way our corporate and Republican leaders are encouraging it, but we have to squash these fuckheads flat EVERY. FUCKING. TIME they do it.

Prosecute the people inciting this hatred under the RICO and Patriot Acts as well. It's time to drop the motherfucking Banhammer on their asses!
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by MarshalPurnell »

Partisans rarely have any rigorous intellectual views to begin with. People overwhelming look for positions that accord with their pre-existing biases and then try to rationalize those positions later. They receive neurochemical "rewards" for actively ignoring contradictions within their views, and the passionate attachment to a cause has been a staple of human psychology roughly forever. It feels good to be in solidarity with other right-thinking people violently opposing the designs of the wicked people who reject your own views. Politics becomes the ultimate exercise in group bonding by setting out stark divisions between "us" and "them" which becomes the entire point of political involvement for most people. After all, being informed and rational about politics makes no economic sense since the marginal value of a vote is worthless, so people will almost inevitably go completely irrational since it does offer something.

The overwhelming majority of people opposed to UHC are neither mouth-breathing retards nor sociopaths. They believe it represents something which they must be mortally opposed to; they do not see a program with pluses and benefits, but rather a key symbol of everything their political enemies hope to accomplish. Since they typically see the "liberal" program in terms of creating a softer, gentler version of the USSR or of draining away the productive classes of the country to favor ill-advised welfare programs, they see opposition to universal health care as a matter of life and death. The problems of the present system are obscured by their partisan commitment, and they are probably being doped by their own brains to ignore the issue entirely. Perhaps they sincerely believe that some other course of reform maintaining their prized virtue of "freedom" from government control is possible, and do not recognize at all the way they are subordinated to corporate control. That they are misguided, though, does not make them evil, and only a very tiny minority would even think of resorting to violence.

Of course one might be justified in calling these people weak-minded fools. Weak-minded fools make up the majority of any population, overwhelmingly so. I question how many people on the other side of the debate are there because they have any understanding of the facts of how health care works here, compared to how it works in other countries. And that is why this debate about health care in America has been the most retarded public debate about a political issue since... well, quite some time. Obama sitting back and letting his supporters handle things has proven to be a catastrophic failure of judgment, and he either needs to get out and lead opinion or just drop the matter before the health care bill gets "compromised" into an even bigger clusterfuck of the average American thanks to mandatory coverage without a public option.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Col. Crackpot »

Lord of the Abyss wrote: You can't; on the whole they are either beyond reason, or they simply don't care because THEY aren't suffering. Either they hold as an article of faith that Government Is Always Bad, or they just don't care about the welfare of the country as a whole, so they don't really care what the actual merits of UHC are.
For me it is a matter of "the government fucks everything up". Lets look at FedGov's track record as of late:

War on Terror: clusterfuck
War on Drugs: clusterfuck
Immigration Reform: clusterfuck
Education Reform: clusterfuck
Bank Bailout: CLUSTERFUCK
Auto Bailout: CLUSTERFUCK
Iraq: Biblical Clusterfuck

pretty much every major initiative the government has undertaken in the past four decades has been a turd. Now the 70- 80% of the population that has decent heath care access is being asked to roll the dice and trust the federal government to do something right for a change. Not only that but we have to hold our noses and do it on an advanced timetable set by the white house? Shit No! Slow down, do this right and ignore the idiots on both sides beating the crap out of their strawmen.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Duckie »

Are you retarded or do you just play one on TV? Nobody is asking you to risk your oh-so-precious private insurance on somebody else, you selfish pig. Show me where in the law it says "If insurance reform doesn't work, private companies are required to dismantle themselves." Show me where even the most radical of options threatens the insurance industry. Hint: It doesn't, it never will, and the insurance lobby made sure on day one by killing single payer there was never a threat to its dominance.

But, no, it's just "I have mine, fuck the poor." as usual from conservatives who don't give a shit about human beings cloaked in supposed common sense that actually boils down to "poor and minorities shouldn't get healthcare if it could potentially harm mine, or even if it wouldn't".
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Samuel »

Col. Crackpot wrote:
Lord of the Abyss wrote: You can't; on the whole they are either beyond reason, or they simply don't care because THEY aren't suffering. Either they hold as an article of faith that Government Is Always Bad, or they just don't care about the welfare of the country as a whole, so they don't really care what the actual merits of UHC are.
For me it is a matter of "the government fucks everything up". Lets look at FedGov's track record as of late:

War on Terror: clusterfuck
War on Drugs: clusterfuck
Immigration Reform: clusterfuck
Education Reform: clusterfuck
Bank Bailout: CLUSTERFUCK
Auto Bailout: CLUSTERFUCK
Iraq: Biblical Clusterfuck
You do realize there are things the federal government does right? In fact the US has reformed education and immigration successfully before. It is just possible that we are doing it wrong- I hear there are countries that have managed to handle drugs and terrorism successfully.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Col. Crackpot »

Duckie wrote:Are you retarded or do you just play one on TV? Nobody is asking you to risk your oh-so-precious private insurance on somebody else, you selfish pig. Show me where in the law it says "If insurance reform doesn't work, private companies are required to dismantle themselves."

But, no, it's just "I have mine, fuck the poor." as usual from conservatives who don't give a shit about human beings. Sociopathy is a virtue!

What lovely reading comprehension skills you have... Why don't you address my actual points instead of making up what you want my points to be.

Not wanting my money wasted on ineffective crap and not wanting to help the poor are two different things. STOP. read what i actually wrote. think. reply.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by ray245 »

Col. Crackpot wrote:
Duckie wrote:Are you retarded or do you just play one on TV? Nobody is asking you to risk your oh-so-precious private insurance on somebody else, you selfish pig. Show me where in the law it says "If insurance reform doesn't work, private companies are required to dismantle themselves."

But, no, it's just "I have mine, fuck the poor." as usual from conservatives who don't give a shit about human beings. Sociopathy is a virtue!

What lovely reading comprehension skills you have... Why don't you address my actual points instead of making up what you want my points to be.

Not wanting my money wasted on ineffective crap and not wanting to help the poor are two different things. STOP. read what i actually wrote. think. reply.
Ok, I'm confused. Are you for UHC or against UHC?
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Col. Crackpot »

Samuel wrote: You do realize there are things the federal government does right? In fact the US has reformed education and immigration successfully before. It is just possible that we are doing it wrong- I hear there are countries that have managed to handle drugs and terrorism successfully.
Oh i'm sure there are. I'm willing to bet the success stories are the results of long processes completed over periods of years to ensuring proper implementation. Not something that is ramrodded through congress in time to appease the masses before the midterm elections.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Duckie »

I read what you wrote. Let's let everyone else do it, in case they skimmed. Here's the important passage:
Now the 70- 80% of the population that has decent heath care access is being asked to roll the dice and trust the federal government to do something right for a change.
Translation: Now the 70-80% of the population (non-poor) that has decent health care (incorrect, the amount with decent healthcare is far less, but we'll ignore that) are being asked to roll the dice (risk something) and trust the federal government to do something right (win the die roll: aka keep the non-poor peoples' insurances from bottoming out) for a change.

You don't give a shit about people who don't have insurance and it's quite obvious from your own words, that you're scandalised the US government would dare risk the insurance of people who have insurance on those who don't*. A false dilemma, but even if it were true it proves you to be a completely mercenary prick with no regard for other human beings. Don't feed me shit and tell me it's caramel just because the colours look alike.

*Risk Pooling and Prosperity Sharing: This is known as the very definition of the social contract that goes behind everything from social security to public works to even the existence of a government

So hey, fuck you. You can cloak yourself in whatever you want, but everyone else sees that underneath you're naked. Or maybe you're just inarticulate and actually meant something completely different from what you wrote. I can sympathise if that's the case.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Col. Crackpot »

ray245 wrote: Ok, I'm confused. Are you for UHC or against UHC?
I'm in favor of government insurance ONLY for those who are unemployed or disabled. Mandating that all employers (within reason) offer insurance and regulating health insurance providers like banks (like back when that actually meant something). Coverage for pre existing conditions... mandatory wellness programs... yadda yadda yadda. Those on government medical would have to actively seek employment, enroll in education or volunteer in government approved programs so long as they physically able to do so.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

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Col. Crackpot wrote:
ray245 wrote: Ok, I'm confused. Are you for UHC or against UHC?
I'm in favor of government insurance ONLY for those who are unemployed or disabled. Mandating that all employers (within reason) offer insurance and regulating health insurance providers like banks (like back when that actually meant something). Coverage for pre existing conditions... mandatory wellness programs... yadda yadda yadda. Those on government medical would have to actively seek employment, enroll in education or volunteer in government approved programs so long as they physically able to do so.
Why not just adopt universal health care instead of creating dozens of different programs that is aimed to solve the same issue?

Here you are, complaining against government's efficiency, yet you are essentially proposing for an solution that would increase government's inefficiency.
Humans are such funny creatures. We are selfish about selflessness, yet we can love something so much that we can hate something.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Col. Crackpot »

Duckie wrote:I read what you wrote. Let's let everyone else do it, in case they skimmed. Here's the important passage:
Now the 70- 80% of the population that has decent heath care access is being asked to roll the dice and trust the federal government to do something right for a change.
Translation: Now the 70-80% of the population (non-poor) that has decent health care (incorrect, the amount with decent healthcare is far less, but we'll ignore that) are being asked to roll the dice (risk something) and trust the federal government to do something right (win the die roll: aka keep the non-poor peoples' insurances from bottoming out) for a change.

You don't give a shit about people who don't have insurance and it's quite obvious from your own words, that you're scandalised the US government would dare risk the insurance of people who have insurance on those who don't*. A false dilemma, but even if it were true it proves you to be a completely mercenary prick with no regard for other human beings. Don't feed me shit and tell me it's caramel just because the colours look alike.

*Risk Pooling and Prosperity Sharing: This is known as the very definition of the social contract that goes behind everything from social security to public works to even the existence of a government

So hey, fuck you. You can cloak yourself in whatever you want, but everyone else sees that underneath you're naked. Or maybe you're just inarticulate and actually meant something completely different from what you wrote. I can sympathise if that's the case.
NOWHERE did i present a false dilemma by stating that private care is being put as risk. I expressed my concern that a rushed US Government Health Care would be a boondogle of a money pit. It is logical to infer this as all of the major inititives (listed above) that were rushed into action by FedGov have been giant clusterfucks.

calm the fuck down duckshit
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

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Gee, dissect that quoted passage for me in a suitable method then, using that interpretation. What does "roll the dice" in the context of "the 70-80% of america which has decent healthcare" mean with regards to the US Congress's actions? I'll stop calling bullshit when you explain what tortured reading of those words can produce what you just claimed. Cause no matter what, it sure as hell sounds like "Fuck doing anything, 70-80% already have healthcare so we can just sit with our thumbs up our asses rather than potentially do something that could possibly hurt those precious and delicate insurance-owning people in the future."
Last edited by Duckie on 2009-09-05 12:15pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

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ray245 wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:
ray245 wrote: Ok, I'm confused. Are you for UHC or against UHC?
I'm in favor of government insurance ONLY for those who are unemployed or disabled. Mandating that all employers (within reason) offer insurance and regulating health insurance providers like banks (like back when that actually meant something). Coverage for pre existing conditions... mandatory wellness programs... yadda yadda yadda. Those on government medical would have to actively seek employment, enroll in education or volunteer in government approved programs so long as they physically able to do so.
Why not just adopt universal health care instead of creating dozens of different programs that is aimed to solve the same issue?

Here you are, complaining against government's efficiency, yet you are essentially proposing for an solution that would increase government's inefficiency.
Huh? This would reduce the scale (COST) of the program by an order of magnitude. The state of Rhode Island RIte Care/ RIte Share program does much of this now. It would need some major tweaking to be rolled out on the national level.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

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Duckie wrote:Gee, dissect that quoted passage for me in a suitable method then, using that interpretation. What does "roll the dice" in the context of "the 70-80% of america which has decent healthcare" mean with regards to the US Congress's actions? I'll stop calling bullshit when you explain what tortured reading of those words can produce what you just claimed.

$$$
How much of my money will be wasted by this taht could be better spent elsewhere

See... you provided a clear example of the lack oflogic in this debate. Someone says something somewhat left of center or right of center and the wing bats from the opposite camp screech like vultures and attack.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

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Col. Crackpot wrote:
Duckie wrote:Gee, dissect that quoted passage for me in a suitable method then, using that interpretation. What does "roll the dice" in the context of "the 70-80% of america which has decent healthcare" mean with regards to the US Congress's actions? I'll stop calling bullshit when you explain what tortured reading of those words can produce what you just claimed.

$$$
How much of my money will be wasted by this taht could be better spent elsewhere

See... you provided a clear example of the lack oflogic in this debate. Someone says something somewhat left of center or right of center and the wing bats from the opposite camp screech like vultures and attack.
How much of your money would be wasted by health care reform that could be better spent on... what? Yourself? Some other project that isn't benefiting the uninsured? Man, that's a totally different interpretation than what I gave for your opinions on health care reform. Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! Ideo precor te futuere se.

:roll:

Are you going to try again or just keep digging in hopes that your attempt to not look like my description will hold weight when you reach the antipodes?
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

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Col. Crackpot wrote:
ray245 wrote: Ok, I'm confused. Are you for UHC or against UHC?
I'm in favor of government insurance ONLY for those who are unemployed or disabled. Mandating that all employers (within reason) offer insurance and regulating health insurance providers like banks (like back when that actually meant something). Coverage for pre existing conditions... mandatory wellness programs... yadda yadda yadda. Those on government medical would have to actively seek employment, enroll in education or volunteer in government approved programs so long as they physically able to do so.
Highlighting mine

So...you are against health care for people with pre-existing conditions?

You know what that is? It is FUCKING MORONIC!

People with pre-existing conditions are those who need health care the MOST. What is your justification to deny it to them?
Because it costs money? Are they worth less than a healthy person?
Because it is their fault? Can you proove that ridicoulos assumption?


Oh, and
Mandating that all employers (within reason) offer insurance
.
So, people with bad jobs won't have health care - what a great and enlightened system.
You know, private companies LOVE exploiting loopholes.
Just tell me, what is your "reasonable limit"?
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Nova Andromeda »

Col. Crackpot wrote:For me it is a matter of "the government fucks everything up". Lets look at FedGov's track record as of late:

War on Terror: clusterfuck Conservative agenda
War on Drugs: clusterfuck Conservative agenda
Immigration Reform: clusterfuck Conservative agenda
Education Reform: clusterfuck Conservative agenda
Bank Bailout: CLUSTERFUCK Conservative agenda / Idiotic Democrats
Auto Bailout: CLUSTERFUCK Caused by conservative agenda
Iraq: Biblical Clusterfuck Conservative agenda
Edits are mine. I find it interesting that all of the things mentioned are either part of the conservative agenda, dreamed up and run by conservatives, or necessitated by the conservative agenda (auto bailout). In fact, the one thing that isn't quite so bad (minus the illegality) is the auto bailout and even that was necessitated by the conservative agenda of no regulation, big trucks, and short term planning.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Nova Andromeda »

Lord MJ wrote:I'm starting to think that the US is screwed due to two irreconcilable ideological camps within this country.

One of which simply can't be reasoned with. Take these two statements for instance
How can there be any progress with two views completely at odds with each other. I mean how can you convince the conservative side of the merits of UHC when they view it as an assault against them.

One could say that the dems should just ignore the other side and push their agenda. But then when the conservatives get back into power they won't hesitate to do the same.
I propose that the liberal states enact the progressive agenda on their own while the impass creates gridlock on the federal level:
[Proposal] New progressive strategy for US politics
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Col. Crackpot »

Serafina wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:
ray245 wrote: Ok, I'm confused. Are you for UHC or against UHC?
I'm in favor of government insurance ONLY for those who are unemployed or disabled. Mandating that all employers (within reason) offer insurance and regulating health insurance providers like banks (like back when that actually meant something). Coverage for pre existing conditions... mandatory wellness programs... yadda yadda yadda. Those on government medical would have to actively seek employment, enroll in education or volunteer in government approved programs so long as they physically able to do so.
Highlighting mine

So...you are against health care for people with pre-existing conditions?

You know what that is? It is FUCKING MORONIC!

People with pre-existing conditions are those who need health care the MOST. What is your justification to deny it to them?
Because it costs money? Are they worth less than a healthy person?
Because it is their fault? Can you proove that ridicoulos assumption?


Oh, and
Mandating that all employers (within reason) offer insurance
.
So, people with bad jobs won't have health care - what a great and enlightened system.
You know, private companies LOVE exploiting loopholes.
Just tell me, what is your "reasonable limit"?
first off, wtf is up with the lack of reading comprehension?

secondly Rome wasn't built in a day, you can't flip a switch and BOOM heath care.
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Serafina »

Col. Crackpot wrote:

first off, wtf is up with the lack of reading comprehension?
What's up with your lack of writing skill?
Coverage for pre existing conditions... mandatory wellness programs... yadda yadda yadda.
is hardly a conclusive sentence - so do not tell me that i misunderstood it, because there hardly IS anything to undertand.
Col. Crackpot wrote:secondly Rome wasn't built in a day, you can't flip a switch and BOOM heath care.
Fail.

If you have the political WILL to do it, you can do it within weeks or months.
Pass a law. Organise the bureaucracy. BOOM - health care.

All you need to "build" are bureaucratic structures, and those need weeks or months to implement - not years.

Obama is just too wimpy, caring about too many opposing views, rather than going straight at the issue.
But at least he TRIES.

Now, stop evading the question:

Do you think people with preexisting conditions should receive healthcare or not?
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Re: Two Polarized Ideological Views in America

Post by Col. Crackpot »

Serafina wrote:
Col. Crackpot wrote:

first off, wtf is up with the lack of reading comprehension?
What's up with your lack of writing skill?
Coverage for pre existing conditions... mandatory wellness programs... yadda yadda yadda.
is hardly a conclusive sentence - so do not tell me that i misunderstood it, because there hardly IS anything to undertand.
Col. Crackpot wrote:secondly Rome wasn't built in a day, you can't flip a switch and BOOM heath care.
Fail.

If you have the political WILL to do it, you can do it within weeks or months.
Pass a law. Organise the bureaucracy. BOOM - health care.

All you need to "build" are bureaucratic structures, and those need weeks or months to implement - not years.

Obama is just too wimpy, caring about too many opposing views, rather than going straight at the issue.
But at least he TRIES.

Now, stop evading the question:

Do you think people with preexisting conditions should receive healthcare or not?
for the third time yes, absolutely they should receive coverage. I thought i was pretty clear in listing what I felt should be done.

The difference between you an I is that I believe that the system can be reformed without me taking it up the ass every week to pay for it. While I will happily pay a little extra to keep the raft afloat, and I recognize the need for timely, yet measured and sustained reform, what i don't buy is the "Anything less than full UHC is fucking the poor" rhetoric. Lets get done what we can get done now, help the millions of people we can help now, and keep the ball moving gradually. Measured and Sustained reform focused on continuous improvement.

thank you yet again for showing how right of center and left of center ideas are attacked by the wingbats and strawmanned into oblivion. What a delightful microcosm of of national heath care debate.
"This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we’ll be lucky to live through it.” -Tom Clancy
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