Ringworld (Known Space Series)

[Theotherguy]

What do you think of this series? I've been reading the trilogy, and it seems pretty ridiculous, but the series is pretty enjoyable.

[Samuel]

Didn't we just have a testing thread? Ringworld itself is awesome- so much land area. Of course, orbitals would be a better idea, but it was built to block radiation... or just look awesome.

As always the alien psychology isn't so good, but better than earlier stories.

and it seems pretty ridiculous

What part? Aside from the luck gene, the pax, the puppeter planet, the natives taking apart the stabilizers to go into space while they still had more land to expand to and scrith there isn't anything ridiculous in the story.

[Theotherguy]

Didn't we just have a testing thread? Ringworld itself is awesome- so much land area. Of course, orbitals would be a better idea, but it was built to block radiation... or just look awesome.

As always the alien psychology isn't so good, but better than earlier stories.

and it seems pretty ridiculous

What part? Aside from the luck gene, the pax, the puppeter planet, the natives taking apart the stabilizers to go into space while they still had more land to expand to and scrith there isn't anything ridiculous in the story.

The ringworld itself is pretty well thought out, but the weird stuff Niven comes up with to get them into the situation are rather silly. I was especially irked by the luck gene, and the pak protector stuff, and "slaver stasis fields." However, he really seems to have paid attention to detail, and really worked out what these things would actually do to a society if they had them.

[starslayer]

The ringworld itself is pretty well thought out, but the weird stuff Niven comes up with to get them into the situation are rather silly. I was especially irked by the luck gene, and the pak protector stuff, and "slaver stasis fields." However, he really seems to have paid attention to detail, and really worked out what these things would actually do to a society if they had them.

Congratulations, you stumbled upon Niven's entire modus operandi. All he usually does is take a few weird and/or cool ideas or pieces of tech, and explores its implications on the world he's created. He does this - and does it well - throughout the Known Space series, and also in all of his collaborations with Pournelle. Ringworld is really just one of the best examples of his work.

[Gil Hamilton]

Also, keep in mind that Niven was the first to admit that Skrith was a handwave. He actually worked out how strong a material would have to be in order to support the construction of a Ringworld and found that no known material was remotely good enough. So he made one up and slapped on as many properties as he wanted because frankly he had already left the realm of the possible by have the Ringworld at all.

[Simon_Jester]

As I recall, a Ringworld spun for gravity around the axis of its orbit needs a tensile strength on the order of the tensile strength of the atomic nucleus- which scrith has.

There are better ways to set it up, frankly. And since the Ringworld builders had gravity generators anyway, I'm honestly not sure why they even bothered spinning for gravity.

[andrewgpaul]

Also, keep in mind that Niven was the first to admit that Skrith was a handwave. He actually worked out how strong a material would have to be in order to support the construction of a Ringworld and found that no known material was remotely good enough.

I was under the impression it was a high school physics class who worked that out, then wrote and told him.

[Gil Hamilton]

I was under the impression it was a high school physics class who worked that out, then wrote and told him.

I thought he worked it out (not a hard problem) and decided to go full bore unobtainium with it.

[Stark]

Here I thought he got his sums wrong and later editions included the 'corrections' from readers.

[andrewgpaul]

I don't think he even bothered with the sums in Ringworld. It's only in the sequels that mention of the strength of Scrith is made. That and the sediment redistribution system (added after someone pointed out at a con that all the sediment would end up at the bottom of the seas in short order, IIRC).

[Nyrath]

I was under the impression it was a high school physics class who worked that out, then wrote and told him.

Actually, I heard that the story was Larry Niven's "Neutron Star." Some students at MIT did a simulation of a close pass by a neutron star and discovered that there was no way that Niven's protagonist could survive. As it turns out, some non-obvious forces cause the spacecraft to rapidly spin.

[phred]

In the forward to one of the sequels he talks about the MIT class that did the math for the properties of Scrith, at which point he dropped any pretense of it not being total handwavium.

As I recall, a Ringworld spun for gravity around the axis of its orbit needs a tensile strength on the order of the tensile strength of the atomic nucleus- which scrith has.

There are better ways to set it up, frankly. And since the Ringworld builders had gravity generators anyway, I'm honestly not sure why they even bothered spinning for gravity.

I think it was just easier to spin it up than have powered generators to provide gravity. Also, IIRC it makes the orbiting of the shades for the day/night cycle easier.

Which is probably also complete bullshit but whatever.

[Simon_Jester]

I don't think he even bothered with the sums in Ringworld. It's only in the sequels that mention of the strength of Scrith is made. That and the sediment redistribution system (added after someone pointed out at a con that all the sediment would end up at the bottom of the seas in short order, IIRC).

Scrith was established as really strong in the first novel, but not invulnerable (there's supposed to be a meteor hole in the Ringworld where something came screaming in from outside at great speed).

I think it was just easier to spin it up than have powered generators to provide gravity. Also, IIRC it makes the orbiting of the shades for the day/night cycle easier.
Which is probably also complete bullshit but whatever.

I think Niven just got too caught up in his Big Idea.

Of course, if the Ringworld had relied on gravity generators, it's quite possible that everyone on board would have died after technology started to regress. I seem to remember some kind of bioengineered mold that ate the room temperature superconductors used by Ringworld's "floating cities," for instance.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Consider also, that the "meteor defence" was integrated into the Ringworld design also. The Pak were also without artificial gravity, and Hyperdrive. Brennan had gravity tech only because he was once a Belter. Gravity tech was introduced to humans by Kzinti, who stole it from a slave race.

In Niven's Known Space universe, Hyperdrive and Gravitic tech were derived from experiments in physics done well outside the orbital distance from the sun to Pluto. Humans, Pak, Kzinti, and by extention all Pak/Hominids didn't think that way. (Prill's folk were unaware of gravitic tech but used all available Pak tech, ergo, the Pak who built Ringworld had no gravitic tech.)

There is also a realpolitic reason Pak made Ringworld. The effort was too large for any one bloodline to do alone. How then to insure one bloodline doesn't bump off the others and take all the work for their own bloodline? To use weapons like the meteor defence against the surface would imperil the entire structure, thus insuring an uneasy truce between all Pak bloodlines.

Limitless power, MAD style of forced cooperation, safe from both invading rivals and the core explosion, and lack of any other means to generate gravity. Ringworld doesn't look so bad given the premises.

[Gil Hamilton]

I thought the Pak didn't actually build the Ringworld, but merely colonized it.

[TheLostVikings]

I think it was just easier to spin it up than have powered generators to provide gravity. Also, IIRC it makes the orbiting of the shades for the day/night cycle easier.

Which is probably also complete bullshit but whatever.

The Day/Night system in Ringworld is also pretty stupid, it would have been much more efficient to have the big pieces creating shadow for "night" to orbit retrograte compared to the ringworld itself, rather than slowly rotating slightly faster than the ringworld.

But hindsight is 20/20, it's hard to get everything right on the first try.

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

How much of Nivens last works did you read Gil?

The one where Luis Wu had to fight Teela/Protector, and Chmee stayed to make his own empire?

The one that explained WHY the Puppeteers don't use Hyperdrive? (Hint, there is a whole ecology in hyperspace, and things don't just "vanish" when traveling to close to the hyper limit, but are EATEN!)

The Psssshpok the Pak had the osmosis generator when it landed on mars, and twing was like 1st generation of scrith, that is to say tougher than it should have been if it had been just normal metal. A version of A.E. VanVogt's "ten point steel". Atomic bonds strengthened by application of outside EM forces. It was a LOT harder to cut into than the investigators thought it should be.

The Pak built Ringworld, but died out just like the ones that went to Earth. Not enough Thalium for the Tree of Life to work. Teela was not the end result of "breeding for luck". The Humans that would eventualy colonise Ringworld would be. Ringword was also going to be safe from the radiation blast from the core explosion. Scrith stopped 40% of Neutrinos! The shielding equivalent to more than 100 light years of lead!
It got even dumber too. The whole hyperlife thing was a cringe worthy POS. Niven was used up long before he stopped writing. It realy makes me wonder how little he wrote in his colaborations.

[Samuel]

I don't remember that. What book was that from?

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

The Ringworld Engineers was the one with Teela as a protector, and Chmee getting to rule "Earth". ( The Earth map in the great sea ) Luis was a reformed wirehead, and thus was able to resist the smell of Tree of life. Being too old, it would have killed him. Seeker of Truth having already died same way.


By the way, quatum 2 hyperdrive, ala Beawolf going to the core and the first trip to Ringworld was a sham. It was not any larger than regular hyperdrive, but had intentionaly been turned into a Rube Golgberg oversized contraption to fool humans and kzinti. It also attracted hyperlife predators like a bloodbank ship being torpeedoed in sharky waters. The Puppeteers have the means to hyper their 5 world cluster, but were scared shitless of hyperlife predators.
It was named Ringworld's Children. There was also Ringworld's Throne.

I didn't read the last two books, having gotten a thumbnail outline of the plot from my brother. it sounded to shitty, I didn't read it. I DID read a part of it, where Hindmost was showing Luise hyperwave pictures of hyperlife predators coming to eat a ship. Hyperlife predators hung out near suns, and usualy couldn't get to ships before the ships went normal space.

It was stated that a VERY old Pak was there, and claimed to be one of the original builders. I am sorry I can't be more specific, as the engineers one was so sucky I gave up on Niven. I am also going by both little snippets I read, and the general overview from my brother.

[Simon_Jester]

Consider also, that the "meteor defence" was integrated into the Ringworld design also. The Pak were also without artificial gravity, and Hyperdrive. Brennan had gravity tech only because he was once a Belter. Gravity tech was introduced to humans by Kzinti, who stole it from a slave race.

In Niven's Known Space universe, Hyperdrive and Gravitic tech were derived from experiments in physics done well outside the orbital distance from the sun to Pluto. Humans, Pak, Kzinti, and by extention all Pak/Hominids didn't think that way. (Prill's folk were unaware of gravitic tech but used all available Pak tech, ergo, the Pak who built Ringworld had no gravitic tech.)

So where did the floating cities (or formerly floating cities) I remember from the first book or two come from, then?

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

They were using magnetic repulsion, off of the superconductor magnets inside the scrith. Either part of the meteor defence that is always slightly active for quick power up, or a seperate system also encased in the scrith. Keep in mind that there is no gravity on Ringworld, so anti gravity would have no gravity field the counter, or repel!

Similar to repulser fields in Star Wars. Luke's land speeder did NOT use gravitic tech.

Note that in Known Space, gravitic tech (gravity polarizors) could compensate for accelleration, but produced no thrust. It could be used as a parachute or to totaly halt all all downward pull towards a gravity well, but all lifting was done with thrusters. (The Soft Weapon)

Later on as Known space tech expanded, there was reactionless thruster tech purchased from the Outsiders. It also happened during Luise Wu's life. When Luise met the Trinoc on the planet with nuetronium (that both ships mistook for a Slaver stasis storage container) in orbit that ate the trinoc's ship, neither humans nor Trinocs had reactionless thrusters.

When he traveled to Ringworld, reactionless thrusers had all but replaced newtonian thrusters. The military ships were still equipped with fusion drive, but for weapon use in addition to reactionless drive being used as primary thrust.
This was genration 1 as it induced accelleration forces that still needed gravity polarizors to keep from squishing the passengers.
Generation 2 was reactionles inerialess drive also purchased from the Outsiders by the Puppeteers. This was the drive they were using to move their 5 worlds trans galactic sublight. It was noted that the drive the Puppeters were using was perchased on a instalment plan. This means that the drive tech was REALY frakking expencive, and the Puppeteers had REALY good credit with the Outsiders.

[phred]

I think it was just easier to spin it up than have powered generators to provide gravity. Also, IIRC it makes the orbiting of the shades for the day/night cycle easier.

Which is probably also complete bullshit but whatever.

The Day/Night system in Ringworld is also pretty stupid, it would have been much more efficient to have the big pieces creating shadow for "night" to orbit retrograte compared to the ringworld itself, rather than slowly rotating slightly faster than the ringworld.

But hindsight is 20/20, it's hard to get everything right on the first try.

I thought they did? It's been a while since i read it so I might just not remember correctly

[Simon_Jester]

They were using magnetic repulsion, off of the superconductor magnets inside the scrith. Either part of the meteor defence that is always slightly active for quick power up, or a seperate system also encased in the scrith. Keep in mind that there is no gravity on Ringworld, so anti gravity would have no gravity field the counter, or repel!

Yes, but if you jump up off the surface of Ringworld, conservation of linear momentum guarantees that you'll still crash down to the ground in your own frame of reference. To keep something in the air you need to exert a constant force towards the star, and a gravity generator is as good a way to do that as any.

However, the floating cities using maglev and not generated gravity does explain why they couldn't use generated gravity on the Ringworld.

Note that in Known Space, gravitic tech (gravity polarizors) could compensate for accelleration, but produced no thrust. It could be used as a parachute or to totaly halt all all downward pull towards a gravity well, but all lifting was done with thrusters. (The Soft Weapon)

Hmm... I'm not absolutely sure your interpretation is right, but I do believe you because it sounds about right.

[Batman]

Keep in mind that there is no gravity on Ringworld, so anti gravity would have no gravity field the counter, or repel!
Similar to repulsor fields in Star Wars. Luke's land speeder did NOT use gravitic tech.

By your own words and every description of repulsors I've ever come across it most definitely did. How is something that counters or repels that gravity field directly NOT gravitic tech?

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

By repelling against the mass of the planet, with EM repulsion? There is I believe a reason they call it repulsor, not anti grav. You could use it against any large mass, but only a planet or large moon would it's use not shove the object used away. I am not realy up on my Star wars tech.
In any case I could very well be wrong about Star War repuser tech NOT being anti grav.

Are repulsors ever used as anthing but planetary* liftoff, or landings? (*small bodies with gravity included)

That was not my point. The floating cities in Ringworld did NOT use anti grav, nor could anti grav work on ringworld, as there was no gravity to anti.
Also Known Space had gravity polarizors not anti grav. It could pull, or block gravity, but not push. That was what I was driving at.