Federation superweapons?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-10 10:46pm

Helm wrote:I understand what you are saying Deagan, but they created it before. It's quite possible they could do it again, if they really felt they had to. Who knows what they might have hiding in secret... you never know. There could be a secret file deep inside Star Fleet data banks or in possession with Section 31 somewhere.

LIke I said, who knows. We will neve rknow. But it's rather pointless anyway, since the Fed's woul dnever use it as a super weapon.

In these debates we are supposed to stick with what they are KNOWN to have, not what they might have.

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-10 10:47pm

Fair enough. Then they wouldn't have it then.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-02-11 12:17am

The thalaron radiation projector would have promise, depending on how well it penetrates shields. A whole ship devoted to it might be overkill: a more economical solution might be some form of modified torpedo casing with a thalaron emitter for a warhead. Good if nothing else for eliminating pesky Borg and Founder infestations.

Whether or not the subspace weapon from Insurrection qualifies, I don't know. Based on the comment that they were banned for their unpredictability and that the crew seemed concerned with closing the tear, perhaps the tear can continue expanding?

Omega particles would be another. I have not seen the episode myself so I don't know enough to comment on them.

It's not exactly glamorous, but the Feds should be able to build nuclear weapons in the gigaton range. Enough of those would definitely be effective in devastating the surface of a planet..

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-11 12:27am

Yeah. The Fed's could have more weapons of mass destruction, or super weapons, and perhaps better weapons, if they didn't devote all their research into just science and exploration, the such. Oh well, who knows. Can't assume, can only know.

Laird · Post by **Laird** » 2003-02-11 02:26am

I don't know if this counts as "Superweapon" but what about Biogenic weapons?

Man this ben tardcake is really hmm...lame? sorry best I could think of at such a late hour,hope he's banned we don't need a warsies version of darkstar do we?*Shudders!*

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-11 02:31am

Hrm. Yeah, you could. But most of that stuff was with the Cardassians, not the Feds.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-11 02:34am

beyond hope wrote:The thalaron radiation projector would have promise, depending on how well it penetrates shields. A whole ship devoted to it might be overkill: a more economical solution might be some form of modified torpedo casing with a thalaron emitter for a warhead. Good if nothing else for eliminating pesky Borg and Founder infestations.

A counter-measure would be quickly devised for that toy. It undoubtedly penetrates the shields for the simple reason that they haven't encountered it before. One of the Prime Laws of Star Trek is that their shields are always useless against anything new. Thick heavy-metal armour would probably block it just fine (perhaps a refresher course on the nature of radiation is necessary?)

Whether or not the subspace weapon from Insurrection qualifies, I don't know. Based on the comment that they were banned for their unpredictability and that the crew seemed concerned with closing the tear, perhaps the tear can continue expanding?

Assuming it does any harm to a non-subspace vessel. ST6 comes to mind as proof that subspace phenomena have massive effects on ST vessels from light-years away while causing only mild environmental damage on planets parked right next to the blast.

Omega particles would be another. I have not seen the episode myself so I don't know enough to comment on them.

The facility in which many of them detonated was still there, albeit damaged. It's obviously not as powerful as some would pretend.

It's not exactly glamorous, but the Feds should be able to build nuclear weapons in the gigaton range. Enough of those would definitely be effective in devastating the surface of a planet..

They would be physically huge, however.

The biggest Fed problem with superweapons is the delivery system, ie- the ships. It's like using a rowboat to deliver a WMD to your enemy when he has ICBM's.

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2003-02-11 03:28am

Darth Wong wrote: The biggest Fed problem with superweapons is the delivery system, ie- the ships. It's like using a rowboat to deliver a WMD to your enemy when he has ICBM's.

Not to mention Federation holier than thou mentality regarding the USE of those weapons. Similar to the New Republic's/Galactic Alliance's unwillingness to use Alpha Red in order to defeat the Vong, put someone like Picard behind the trigger of said WMD and rater than seeing a little red button go "push" we'll hear a bunch of rhetoric where (insert Peacenik Fed Here) claims he would be a murderer if he used the WMD.

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-11 04:00am

Darth Wong wrote: Assuming it does any harm to a non-subspace vessel. ST6 comes to mind as proof that subspace phenomena have massive effects on ST vessels from light-years away while causing only mild environmental damage on planets parked right next to the blast.

Wasn't only one half of Praxis destroyed? Isn't it possible that Excelsior was on the that side was blasted apart and Qo'noS on the opposite, the side not blasted apart? Wouldn't that explain why Qo'noS didn't suffer massive damage?

Helm · Post by **Helm** » 2003-02-11 04:13am

Kamakazie Sith wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Assuming it does any harm to a non-subspace vessel. ST6 comes to mind as proof that subspace phenomena have massive effects on ST vessels from light-years away while causing only mild environmental damage on planets parked right next to the blast.
Wasn't only one half of Praxis destroyed? Isn't it possible that Excelsior was on the that side was blasted apart and Qo'noS on the opposite, the side not blasted apart? Wouldn't that explain why Qo'noS didn't suffer massive damage?

I consider a planet that would lose it's supply of oxygen in 50 earth years, and a empire that would have to sign a peace treaty and end hostilities to combat such a tragedy rather serious, not just mild. However, I guess it is mild considering the planet was still intact (Qo'Nos that is).

As for the explosion being on the other side, and what not, the film I believe showed the shockwave going 360 degrees, not just in 180 degrees. I could be wrong, been awhile since I watched ST6.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-02-11 05:35am

The Enterprise had the schematics for the Genesis device in ST II and it survived. Besides it propably got them from Starfleet in the first place and it would have been pretty weird for the Marcus's to work all that time on the Genesis device and never report anything of their work to the UFP or Starfleet, especially since Starfleet was involved in the project.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-11 12:00pm

Sir Sirius wrote:The Enterprise had the schematics for the Genesis device in ST II and it survived. Besides it propably got them from Starfleet in the first place and it would have been pretty weird for the Marcus's to work all that time on the Genesis device and never report anything of their work to the UFP or Starfleet, especially since Starfleet was involved in the project.

Incorrect. The schematics were erased from the Regula One space station computers. The only copy of the Genesis information was contained in the device itself, which wa beamed onto the Reliant and destroyed in the explosion. The only thing the Enterprise had was a briefing on what the technology was supposed to do.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-11 12:28pm

Helm wrote:As for the explosion being on the other side, and what not, the film I believe showed the shockwave going 360 degrees, not just in 180 degrees. I could be wrong, been awhile since I watched ST6.

Yes, it was 360 degrees.

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2003-02-11 12:35pm

All but one of the project scientists were killed. The test-station computers were wiped to prevent the design specs for the Genesis Device from falling into Khan Singh's hands.

Not all the scientists we're killed. The majority were on leave off the station, thats why so few where there to meet Khan.

According to the novel it was wiped (or downloaded I can't remember which) & replaced with a computer game.

Mind you, if it was downloaded it may have been transported down to Regular with Carol, David & that guy who got vapourised...

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-11 12:46pm

DocHorror wrote:Not all the scientists we're killed. The majority were on leave off the station, thats why so few where there to meet Khan.

but non of them know how David solved "certain problems that couldn't be solved any other way"

According to the novel it was wiped (or downloaded I can't remember which) & replaced with a computer game.

Mind you, if it was downloaded it may have been transported down to Regular with Carol, David & that guy who got vapourised...

All this really doesn't matter since both the Regula Space Station and planetoid were undoutably destroyed when Genesis detonated in the near by Mutara nebula.

DocHorror · Post by **DocHorror** » 2003-02-11 12:51pm

DocHorror wrote:
Not all the scientists we're killed. The majority were on leave off the station, thats why so few where there to meet Khan.
but non of them know how David solved "certain problems that couldn't be solved any other way"
Quote:
According to the novel it was wiped (or downloaded I can't remember which) & replaced with a computer game.

Mind you, if it was downloaded it may have been transported down to Regular with Carol, David & that guy who got vapourised...
All this really doesn't matter since both the Regula Space Station and planetoid were undoutably destroyed when Genesis detonated in the near by Mutara nebula.

Indeed. They were awful close to the detonation point...galactically speaking of course...

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-11 01:07pm

DocHorror wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:
DocHorror wrote:
Not all the scientists we're killed. The majority were on leave off the station, thats why so few where there to meet Khan.

but non of them know how David solved "certain problems that couldn't be solved any other way"
According to the novel it was wiped (or downloaded I can't remember which) & replaced with a computer game.

Mind you, if it was downloaded it may have been transported down to Regular with Carol, David & that guy who got vapourised...

All this really doesn't matter since both the Regula Space Station and planetoid were undoutably destroyed when Genesis detonated in the near by Mutara nebula.
Indeed. They were awful close to the detonation point...galactically speaking of course...

A few minutes away at sublight speeds in heavily damaged ships. The E-nil could make less than 4000 km in about 3-4 minutes as they were trying to get away from the Reliant. This works out to an average speed of ~20 km/sec and acceleration of 300 m/s^2.

They wewen't that far away even on planetary scales.

Typhonis 1 · Post by **Typhonis 1** » 2003-02-11 01:17pm

Which brings up an interesting point since they were in the Nebula and shields were useless .Could shields be effective VS Genesis?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-11 01:26pm

Typhonis 1 wrote:Which brings up an interesting point since they were in the Nebula and shields were useless .Could shields be effective VS Genesis?

Probably. After all, the Genesis Effect fits every known characteristic of the transporter effect, and we know THAT is stymied by shields. Name one other technology known to them which could accomplish any of the things it did.

Sir Sirius · Post by **Sir Sirius** » 2003-02-11 02:53pm

Darth Servo wrote:
DocHorror wrote:Not all the scientists we're killed. The majority were on leave off the station, thats why so few where there to meet Khan.
but non of them know how David solved "certain problems that couldn't be solved any other way"

David told Saavik that he used protomatter.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2003-02-11 03:22pm

Sir Sirius wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:
DocHorror wrote:Not all the scientists we're killed. The majority were on leave off the station, thats why so few where there to meet Khan.
but non of them know how David solved "certain problems that couldn't be solved any other way"
David told Saavik that he used protomatter.

She wasn't one of the Genesis scientists. Does anyone know if she ever left Vulcan after ST3?

Kamakazie Sith · Post by **Kamakazie Sith** » 2003-02-11 03:46pm

Darth Servo wrote:
Sir Sirius wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:but non of them know how David solved "certain problems that couldn't be solved any other way"
David told Saavik that he used protomatter.
She wasn't one of the Genesis scientists. Does anyone know if she ever left Vulcan after ST3?

She is a Starfleet officer, so I would assume that she has.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2003-02-11 03:51pm

Sir Sirius wrote:
Darth Servo wrote:
DocHorror wrote:Not all the scientists we're killed. The majority were on leave off the station, thats why so few where there to meet Khan.
but non of them know how David solved "certain problems that couldn't be solved any other way"
David told Saavik that he used protomatter.

I doubt that a single sentence would allow her to duplicate all of his work.

Admiral Johnason · Post by **Admiral Johnason** » 2003-02-11 03:59pm

Carol might have known. First, she is the project leader. Second, she is hi mother. Third, He didn't say that he was the only one with this information.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2003-02-11 07:54pm

Darth Wong wrote:
beyond hope wrote:The thalaron radiation projector would have promise, depending on how well it penetrates shields. A whole ship devoted to it might be overkill: a more economical solution might be some form of modified torpedo casing with a thalaron emitter for a warhead. Good if nothing else for eliminating pesky Borg and Founder infestations.
A counter-measure would be quickly devised for that toy. It undoubtedly penetrates the shields for the simple reason that they haven't encountered it before. One of the Prime Laws of Star Trek is that their shields are always useless against anything new. Thick heavy-metal armour would probably block it just fine (perhaps a refresher course on the nature of radiation is necessary?)
I wasn't really thinking of the Empire as the target when I was writing, just speculating on possibilities. Mounting heavy armor on your ships almost seems taboo in ST (they remind me more of a sportfishing boat with a fiberglass hull rather than an actual warship.) Against the Empire, I'd see thalaron weapons limited to either a "scorched earth" policy of ruining the ecosystems of planets, or else terrorist strikes against the civilian populations of worlds that have submitted to the Empire.

Whether or not the subspace weapon from Insurrection qualifies, I don't know. Based on the comment that they were banned for their unpredictability and that the crew seemed concerned with closing the tear, perhaps the tear can continue expanding?
Assuming it does any harm to a non-subspace vessel. ST6 comes to mind as proof that subspace phenomena have massive effects on ST vessels from light-years away while causing only mild environmental damage on planets parked right next to the blast.
Conceded.

Omega particles would be another. I have not seen the episode myself so I don't know enough to comment on them.
The facility in which many of them detonated was still there, albeit damaged. It's obviously not as powerful as some would pretend.
That was why I asked, I've never seen the episode they cropped up in myself, only heard them argued about.

It's not exactly glamorous, but the Feds should be able to build nuclear weapons in the gigaton range. Enough of those would definitely be effective in devastating the surface of a planet..
They would be physically huge, however.
I had the old "gigaton mine" proposals in mind when I was thinking about this. Scaling up from the Tsar Bomba, I get a weight of about 300 tons for a 1 gigaton nuke. I'm not sure of the dimensions (320 cubic meters was what i came up with) but what I had in mind was something like an unmanned Defiant or Oberth gutted out on the inside to accomidate the bomb. Smaller 100 megaton versions (at the Tsar Bomba's dimensions of 8m x 2m and 27 tons) could be made and deployed from the shuttle bay, or maybe be mounted externally on the ship.

The biggest Fed problem with superweapons is the delivery system, ie- the ships. It's like using a rowboat to deliver a WMD to your enemy when he has ICBM's.

Two solutions to that occur to me. The first would be terror attacks using non-military ships. Of course, it will only be possible if the Empire allows continued civilian shipping into their occupied areas from the outside. The other option would be warp-capable missiles like the Cardassian juggernaut, and lots of them (forgoing new shipbuilding completely as the Federation wouldn't be taking back territory they lost to the Empire any time soon.) Depending on how expensive phase cloaks are, maybe have the things cloaked until just before they reach the target as well.