Bad design in Star Wars

[Serafina]

I love how ExarKun just ignored my reply which basically showed that the Rebels tried a massive starfighter attack of 500+ X-wings and a lucrehulk carrier against an unfinished DSI and still failed massively.

But clearly, after a demonstrated failure against an unfinished target, the Imps were supposed to give a lot of thought about the danger of starfighter attacks.

I didn't see your reply. When did that battle happen? Is that on Director's cut?

I am not going to reply to the rest of your ramblings as I will not intrude on the pleasures of others, but the attack happened in 0 BBY, the same year the DS was finished. You can read about it here with further references.

In short, a rebel attack of hundreds of fighters failed against an unfinished DS. Clearly they were supposed to care about the possibilites of an attack made with a fraction of that strength...when an attack failed that utilized way stronger numbers.

Clearly, they did not know about Conservation Of Ninjutsu .

[Darwin]

The turn we see the torps made is very wide, there is no way they could maneuver inside the shaft.

exhaust port=2 meters

apparent radius of torpedo turn by trails=<1.5 meters (conservatively)

exactly how tight does the turn have to be for you to stop considering it wide? The exhaust tube would have to have hairpins (which would trap heat) to have even a thought of stopping things that can make precision 72000+gee turns. On top of that, they're probably able to tolerate some bumping and sliding before exploding at their pre-programmed target.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

That's funny, I could have sworn that the torps make a right angle turn within about six feet or so, while traveling at some insane speed. Its not that wide a turn.

And while I'm at it, you think that the Rebels should have used the fighters they had on hand (all thirty of them) to evacuate, knowing that if the Death Star is not destroyed it is in fact game over, as no planetary government would support them, given that the Empire has just demonstrated that it is both able and willing to destroy whole planets for disloyalty, and you're calling Hav retarded?

Your example of Bin Laden and Al Quaida is invalid, as the U.S. never did anything comprable to the destruction of Alderaan in persuit of them. I don't think Al Quaida would get much government support if we'd, say, carpet nuked Afganistan to get at them, weather Bin Laden escaped or not.*

The exaust port may be a design flaw, but its not as bad as you're making it out to be, and its certainly not an easily exploitable one. I mean, we're talking about a two meter opening on an artificial moon a hundred and sixty kilometers wide, that the Rebels wouldn't have even known was there if they hadn't gotten their hands on a detailed technical readout of the station.

Even knowing that its there, the only pilot who was confident in his ability to hit it was Luke, who, despite being an excellent pilot, is at that point as green as grass, with a combat record that stretches back as far as his trip from the Death Star to Yavin 4, so clearly he knows what he's talking about and not just being an overconfident kid.




*I'm not saying that this should have been done, or that the U.S. could have done it with impunity, I'm just using it as an example of something comparable to the destruction of Alderaan, adjusted for scale.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Damn, Darwin beat me to it.

[Havok]

That's not the point. When you design a station the size of a moon, you make sure it is hard to destroy by a single fighter.

Right, because single one man fighters are ALWAYS going around blowing up moon sized objects. I mean, that is a common problem. The Empire really should have focused on stopping a single fighter.

Man, where the fuck do you come up with this bullshit.

And in all your dumbass rantings, did it not once occur to you that no one actually knew about the secondary exhaust port? Other than whatever computer or engineer designed it, no one knew about it. Even the Imperials didn't know... "We've analyzed their attack sir, and there is a danger."

As for it being a design flaw, I'm not an engineer, but it seems like designing and building a straight exhaust port that is only two meters wide that is kilometers long, makes a hell of a lot more sense than putting unnecessary bends and curves in it. Even then, the designers had enough forethought to ray shield it specifically. Clearly, NO ONE, either engineer or military, felt that a projectile attack had any real hope of success, if it could even be tried. And as has been pointed out numerous times, it literally took a supernatural Force to make the shot successful.

And of course, we only have your say so that the torpedoes couldn't make the necessary maneuvers to make it down the exhaust shaft if there had been turns.
In fact, we can't even say for certain that the shaft DIDN'T have any turns in it. The simulation we see of the shaft and torpedo hit is obviously not to scale or in any way detailed, but hey, why actually watch the movies.

Yeah sorry dillhole, a design 'flaw' it is not.

It took me 5 minutes to attempt to recoup, by the way of deep concentration, the IQ I lost by reading this. I'm not sure it worked.
I didn't want to be mean so I didn't respond to the first post you made, but since you're being an arrogant douche bag, I'll strip your comment down into bits, and frankly, you're an embarrassment to your "side" in this argument cause your shit is so stupid it took me half an hour to decide whether to waste my life responding to this shit:

1. No one knew about the exhaust port except the computer or engineer who designed it

That's why it's not a design flaw? Holly Shit!!

Wow. You are fucking stupid. There is a difference between a flaw i.e. something that is broken or doesn't work, and something designed that obviously works. Or are you going to say that the exhaust port doesn't work now? That still doesn't address my point that it was not a known fact that the port was even there and it took stolen plans to fucking find it. Aside from that, again it is not a DESIGN FLAW because it works exactly as it is supposed to. Can your Yellow Bus mind comprehend that?

Who do you think designed it but an engineering team? A team of engineers who should have discussed it, then taken it to their supervisor, then may be to a manager who is in charge of designing the reactor, then.....

Quite the cherry picker aren't you.

Even then, the designers had enough forethought to ray shield it specifically. Clearly, NO ONE, either engineer or military, felt that a projectile attack had any real hope of success, if it could even be tried.

We'll just pretend like you didn't see that part of my response, just like you pretend you have actually have some intelligence.

2. As for it being a design flaw, I'm not an engineer, but it seems like designing and building a straight exhaust port that is only two meters wide that is kilometers long, makes a hell of a lot more sense than putting unnecessary bends and curves in it.
Of course you're not. Yeah, who needs curves, lets just make it easy for someone to drop a fucking torpedo down to a highly volatile reactor. While we're at it, lets expose the fuel tanks at a gas station so that some tool can throw down a cigarette butt. It will be easier to refuel and, I'm not an engineer, but it seems like it makes hell of a lot of more sense than the way it is now. Who needs unnecessary safety precautions?

Guess you missed the part where it was ray shielded? I take it you also missed the part where it is an EXHAUST port. You know the thing you use to expel dangerous fumes/gases/etc., but hey, lets make it as complicated a route as possible so that there is a better chance of what we want OUT getting stuck or backed up and causing problems.

3. And as has been pointed out numerous times, it literally took a supernatural Force to make the shot successful.
No it didn't. They felt they could do it anyways, no one knew about Luke's force. Why would it be hard to shoot a torpedo down a straight fucking shaft? If they felt they could not do it without supernatural powers, they would have packed up whatever bags they could get in time and left.

Holy shit, you must be the fucking idiot that wrote the article. YES IT DID. Or did you miss the part where the computer on the first ship couldn't make the shot? The part where the entire Rebel pilot meeting was aghast of the mission they were just handed. The part where Luke TURNED OFF HIS COMPUTER and USED THE FORCE to make the shot? Fuck, you are just pathetically fucking dumb.
And right, the Rebels are just going to pack up their bags and let the space station that destroys entire planets in one shot just cruise along without trying to stop it, because that is what freedom fighters do. Just give up.

4. In fact, we can't even say for certain that the shaft DIDN'T have any turns in it. The simulation we see of the shaft and torpedo hit is obviously not to scale or in any way detailed, but hey, why actually watch the movies.
It's not shown, but fuck it, lets assume there are turns all the way down? Retarded

So what you are saying is that you are so fucking stupid that you think that that image was an exact representation of the shaft, even though in the very SAME scene, we see the schematics zoom in to show deeper and deeper detail? You did notice that in that screen shot that the super laser was not in the correct position? Were you surprised when the actual explosion didn't look like the briefing room simulated 12 pixel blinking explosion?

5. And of course, we only have your say so that the torpedoes couldn't make the necessary maneuvers to make it down the exhaust shaft if there had been turns.
My say is common sense, your say is fanboyism because you're butt hurt that someone in your beloved universe is a retard. A torpedo traveling that fast can't make tight turns in time.

Uh... so you admit it is just your say so and you have no actual proof that the torps could not make the necessary turns? Oh and a torpedo traveling that fast can't make tight turns in time? Then how did the torpedo get into the shaft in the first place you fucking moron. IT IS RIGHT THERE ON SCREEN. Why are you this fucking stupid? Are your parents brother and sister or something?

6. And "dillhole"? wow

I have to get creative with morons like you, otherwise I run out of insults.

It was intentional? If Tarkin goes rogue you need a way to take care of him. Preferably after he has toasted some worlds.

Knowing Emperor, it could be.

It is hilarious that you actually agree with the dumbest thing said in this thread that didn't come from your tiny little mind.

Yes there is, it's in the novel. They found it insane. If you can't figure that Wedge's comment is meant to give voice to that dissatisfaction, then that's your own issue.

Garbage. Wedge is a combat flyer, Luke's a bush pilot with no combat experience whatsoever. Your subjective idea that he's a 'wuss' mean absolutely nothing as to the validity of what he was saying.

This is simply "ignore what the movie is clearly telegraphing to the audience" territory. I guess Obi-Wan was just exhorting Luke to turn off the targeting computer and use the force because he's an idiot?

Based on what? You've presented no evidence of this. All the evidence points in the exact opposite direction, in fact.


That's immaterial. You're trying to make out it's some sort of really obvious glaring weakness, and it just isn't. Your attempts to argue otherwise fly in the face of the entire movie.

Frankly, I don't care about the novel.

Yeah sorry douche, that doesn't fly here and you have been a member long enough to know that. Unless the movies directly contradict the novelizations, they are absolute canon.

Just because he's a combat flier doesn't mean he's not pessimistic or a wuss. And that's bullshit about Luke, he's fucking superb, even Vader -the best pilot in the galaxy TM- is impressed.

It also doesn't mean he isn't correct... OH and guess what... he was right you fucking sad sack.

What's the opposite direction exactly? That Luke guided the misseles by himself? My evidence that he didn't is the fact that he can't pull a lightsaber out of snow some time later, and you expect me to believe he guides those missiles? He obviously uses the force to tell him when to release pre-programmed torpedos, it can be nothing else.

Holy fucking shit, can you try not to rip off Ghost Rider quite so hard in the same thread he posts in.

Oh, yeah, it's impossible to monitor and diagnose a complex technological system because you say so.

*looks at computer in front of me*

OH WAIT! I hear 'engine fail' systems are incredibly basic 'trip sensor to start light' stuff, but that engine management computers are complex enough to control almost every function of the engine and output it to a logger. But it's impossible in the far future of FTL-science, EVEN THOUGH THE FALCON KNEW WHAT WAS WRONG. A simple text popup on a monitor would have communicated the information you stupidly assert is impossible to gather.

Ah, the good old far future FTL science argument, so it must be true.

Ah, the good old I don't have an intelligent response so I will attempt to deflect it with a failed attempt at sarcasm non-argument.

No, not really. What is the Death Star made for? Overwhelming power projection and intimidation factors. What is a US Super Carrier for? Overwhelming power projection and intimidation. It's the reason every time the US has a major diplomatic situation where they need someone to back down, we park a carrier just outside their coastal waters or beyond range of any AShM's they may have. This still ignores the fact that you haven't shown how my analogy is incorrect.

What's the power ratio of super carrier to fighter, and death star to fighter? I don't care what their role is, death star is clearly in a different class to a carrier, you're analogy would only be correct if you were comparing a carrier to a star destoryer.

And yet in the very same post, you compare the Death Star to a Gas Station.
I mean, are you being this stupid on purpose? Are you actually trying? This is quality fucking stuff.

I love how ExarKun just ignored my reply which basically showed that the Rebels tried a massive starfighter attack of 500+ X-wings and a lucrehulk carrier against an unfinished DSI and still failed massively.

But clearly, after a demonstrated failure against an unfinished target, the Imps were supposed to give a lot of thought about the danger of starfighter attacks.

I didn't see your reply. When did that battle happen? Is that on Director's cut?

Really... again? The EU is part of Star Wars canon whether you like it or not you fucking idiot. If you are ignorant of it, like you clearly are of the movies, then shut your fucking mouth and concede the point. Or use that little peanut you call a brain and get up to speed.

Nonsense. If you watch the scenes inside the Rebel base, it's quite obvious that they're nervous as hell. Why would they be nervous if they expected the X-Wing gambit to work reliably?

And if they had the choice to evacuate before the Death Star could blow up the planet, why the hell didn't they do it anyway and send the X-Wings in, instead of just sitting there while the Death Star moved into firing position? They already knew the Death Star had plenty of TIE fighters and shit, so they had to know that their plan might fail.

Even if you thought your X-Wing plan had a 99% chance of working or whatever, you'd have to be a complete fool to just sit there and do nothing instead of boarding a transport and commanding the battle from safely out of superlaser range.

It was hard to destroy with fighters; you will notice that fighters actually had to defy the laws of physics using a supernatural force to destroy it.

The Death Star was armored and shielded such that no conventional fighter attack could possibly have destroyed, or even seriously threatened it. All they could do was shoot up the surface. Only by having the exact blueprints, analyzing them carefully, and launching what they had to know was a suicide mission did they even get close to succeeding. Even then, they had to use magic.

Wait, what? Why is an amateur who thinks he can do it to be trusted over a professional who thinks his tools aren't up to it?

Why would a torpedo that can make one turn be unable to make several? That makes no sense.

They're nervous because it's battle time, and the odds are against them. No body goes into combat with a big smile on their face.

They aren't just nervous, they don't think that the plan is going to work... at all. Do you really have to have everything spelled out for you like a child?

Your evacuation argument works for you and against you. May be transports needed longer time to prepare to leave. They could have, however, escaped on the fighters. If this mission was so impossible, why didn't they just evacuate on the fighters they had, as long as the leadership is alive, the Rebellion will stay alive. As long as ibn Laden is alive al qaida is alive, it doesn't matter how many low level terrorists US kills or training camps destroy. They had a choice:

1. Leave on those fighters and survive to fight another day
2. Fight with those fighters and win.
If it was 1 in a million chance, they would have picked option 1.

No you fucking imbecile, they had to attack because they were only going to get one shot, no matter how slim, to exploit the weakness they found. They couldn't just let the DS go on to pick off every planet that supported the Rebellion. Not to mention the fact that if the DS survived, there would be NO more rebellion to speak of.

What laws of physics did fighters defy? They didn't know Luke could use the force, and they still went with option 1 from the above. They felt the computers can do it. Hard but they could do it in a few runs.

It doesn't matter if Luke is an amateur, he's a superb pilot as shown. I'd trust his opinion over Wedge.

Of course you would, because you are fucking stupid. LUKE WAS WRONG. Wedge was correct. The computer couldn't hit it.

That torpedo has a pretty wide angle of turn. If you put the zig zag patterns close together, they won't have enough time to turn when traveling at such speed, it's pretty simple.

Holy fucking... The torps made practically a stop on a dime turn just to get into the shaft in what looks to be less than the two meter opening of the shaft itself. How did you get to be this stupid. It is amazing.

Addendum:

Here is a cutaway taken from the main site's TL commentaries section:



Can anyone find the ICS cutaway of the Death Star (or is this also from the ICS?)? Squint and you'll see that this cutaway shows the shaft (to the upper left) going nowhere near the station's core, cutting through many decks at an angle. The reactor is above the equator of the station, roughly centered between the pole and the equator, so the shaft doesn't travel to the core itself. The shaft in the image shown here clearly conflicts with the simplified briefing room presentation.

The shaft is also obviously not within the equator, so that's either another shaft, or the diagram shown here is way off.

Is that a screen shot from the movie itself? I think I remember a scene where Dodona shows the torpedo flying down the shaft straight to the reactor.

I think I remember that the X-Wing that dropped it's pixel looked like a mouse pointer. What's that you say? That wasn't an accurate depiction? NONSENSE! It was on screen!!!!11!1

Apparently, you do need everything spelled out for you.

[Thanas]

And Havok provides the delicious smackdown as expected.

[Vympel]

Thankfully Havok has done all the grunt work.

The novelization quote (you know, the novel with "by George Lucas" on it):-

Mutterings of disbelief ran through the room. The more experienced the pilot, the greater his expressed disbelief.

Frankly, I don't care about the novel.

Continue this behavior and you will be disciplined. That it directly contradicts your line of BS is not a valid reason for you to ignore it.

Just because he's a combat flier doesn't mean he's not pessimistic or a wuss.

Neither of which have fuck all to do with the point. Your "oh he's a wuss" is - for lack of a better way of putting it - a pure ad hominem, and a poor excuse to dismiss his judgment, which as Havok noted - was correct.

And that's bullshit about Luke, he's fucking superb, even Vader -the best pilot in the galaxy TM- is impressed.

The only thing Vader was impressed by was how strong the Force was with Luke. This doesn't make Luke's brash and idiotic attempt to belittle the magnitude of the task in a room full of experienced fliers anything other than just that.

What's the opposite direction exactly? That Luke guided the misseles by himself?

No, idiot. You made the claim that:-

May be because he can feel it, he's reaction is faster, so he'll make more hits than someone using a computer, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be done without force.

This is not a fact. You have no basis for this claim in the evidence whatsoever. Every single piece of evidence from the film, from dialog to visuals, indicates that this was an impossible task. The only way your idiotic statement could be true would be if you defined one in a million as being anything other than impossible odds.

[Simon_Jester]

So if the torpedo is supposed to make a 70,000g turn to ENTER the tube, and they have complete specs of the tube, why would corners stop it? Surely the weapon would be programmed to follow the required course, within it's ludicrous turning capability.

Ask erik_t.
_____

Yes there is, it's in the novel. They found it insane. If you can't figure that Wedge's comment is meant to give voice to that dissatisfaction, then that's your own issue.

Garbage. Wedge is a combat flyer, Luke's a bush pilot with no combat experience whatsoever. Your subjective idea that he's a 'wuss' mean absolutely nothing as to the validity of what he was saying...

Just because he's a combat flier doesn't mean he's not pessimistic or a wuss. And that's bullshit about Luke, he's fucking superb, even Vader -the best pilot in the galaxy TM- is impressed.

And you missed something critical there. Luke may have Force-fueled reflexes that make him a great pilot, but that doesn't mean he knows jack about proton torpedoes or X-wing targeting computers. Wedge, on the other hand, has been flying X-Wings for some time.

And so they're saying different things. Luke is saying "I can hit a two-meter target in my bush plane back home." Wedge is saying "The avionics on my fighter aren't precise enough to hit a two-meter target (under combat conditions)." Even if Luke is right, that doesn't mean Wedge is wrong. The problem is that Luke doesn't realize that there's a problem because he:
-Doesn't know the difference between an X-wing and whatever the hell random thing he flies back home
-Doesn't know the difference between flying in combat and flying in the middle of a desert with nothing to bother you
-Has the ridiculous self-confidence of a teenager.

Thus, Luke's comment that he can hit two-meter targets under some different conditions does not override Wedge's assessment of what his fighter can do in combat.
_______

They're nervous because it's battle time, and the odds are against them. No body goes into combat with a big smile on their face.

Yes, because they're not sure the plan will work, because even knowing exactly how to kill the Death Star with a proton torpedo, they're not sure they can do it. The Death Star's defenses are strong enough that even someone who knows exactly how to exploit one of the few remotely useful weaknesses in the design isn't doing it reliably. Thus, I'm inclined to say that the exhaust port was not a good example of bad design. The defenses already in place could easily have been good enough, and would have been good enough had it not been for the attackers' use of supernatural powers.

Your evacuation argument works for you and against you. May be transports needed longer time to prepare to leave. They could have, however, escaped on the fighters. If this mission was so impossible, why didn't they just evacuate on the fighters they had, as long as the leadership is alive, the Rebellion will stay alive. As long as ibn Laden is alive al qaida is alive, it doesn't matter how many low level terrorists US kills or training camps destroy. They had a choice:

1. Leave on those fighters and survive to fight another day
2. Fight with those fighters and win.
If it was 1 in a million chance, they would have picked option 1.

Point the first: you can't accomplish much of an evacuation in two dozen X-Wings. I'm not jsut talking about the leaders here, I'm talking about the whole base. Remember what happened on Hoth? The Rebels were pulling out all kinds of equipment and personnel on transports; some of their senior people were on the last ship to make it out, the Millenium Falcon. That's what it looks like when the Rebel Alliance is evacuating a base that's about to be destroyed.

My point is that we see none of this at Yavin. The naive interpretation is that they're not running because there's nothing to worry about; the X-Wings will surely kill the Death Star before it blows up the rebel base. But that's absurd, because as we can see there were plenty of reasons to worry about the attack failing: the torpedoes might not go into the shaft, the X-Wings might all be shot down by the Death Star's fighters, they might not reach the target in time to save the base, whatever.

The smarter interpretation is that they need more time to prepare for evacuation. The only thing they can run with is the fighters, and they're not just going to pull out a few leaders without trying to take people and equipment with them. I can think of several reasons to do that. For one, the people on Yavin aren't really the key leaders of the Rebellion so far as we know. There's Leia, and there's that general guy, but the Rebellion can continue to exist without them. Therefore, trying to use the fighters to protect the base itself probably makes more sense than using the same fighters to protect a few dozen people from the base. For another, the Rebel Alliance is exactly the kind of group that will refuse to leave the grunts to get vaporized while the leaders bail out. For yet another, to escape in the fighters they'd have to know how to fly them, and as far as I can tell they don't.

What laws of physics did fighters defy? They didn't know Luke could use the force, and they still went with option 1 from the above. They felt the computers can do it. Hard but they could do it in a few runs.

They felt the computers could, not that they would. It's not clear how likely the plan is to succeed. Obviously it had a good enough chance of success that it was worth risking the fighters against the Death Star rather than trying to save them from the general destruction of the base. But since the base itself was very valuable, that doesn't prove much. I'd have risked the fighters even if I only had, say, a 10% chance of saving the base. Less than that, even.

But without Luke's use of the Force, we have no reason to assume that the X-Wing gambit was likely to succeed, only that it had a good enough chance to be better than sitting there and waiting to be disintegrated. And "gives you a good enough chance that it's better than doing nothing, if and only if you have the exact blueprints of the target" isn't a very serious design weakness.
_________

It doesn't matter if Luke is an amateur, he's a superb pilot as shown. I'd trust his opinion over Wedge.

Take two men. One of them has flown around in a Cessna a lot, he's quite good in his Cessna, and he's 18. The other is several years older and has extensive experience flying F-16 fighter jets. The second man tells you that an F-16 cannot drop a JDAM guided bomb with a precision of less than one meter. The first man disagrees. Who do you believe?

[Isolder74]

Did you not watch the movie Vader doesn't say about Luke "This guy piloting is impressive" He says "The Force is strong with this one."

Vader wasn't commenting on Luke's ability to pilot but on the fact that the Force it allowing him to sense when Vader is locking onto him and then he reacts making the lock fail.

[FSTargetDrone]

<image snipped>

exhaust port=2 meters

apparent radius of torpedo turn by trails=<1.5 meters (conservatively)

exactly how tight does the turn have to be for you to stop considering it wide? The exhaust tube would have to have hairpins (which would trap heat) to have even a thought of stopping things that can make precision 72000+gee turns. On top of that, they're probably able to tolerate some bumping and sliding before exploding at their pre-programmed target.

It should be noted, this image, apparently a CGI rendering, seems to be from the Behind The Magic CD and does not show exactly what is seen in the movie. The torpedoes seen in the film exhibit more "flaring" and the details of the shaft and surrounding surface are slightly different. The trail coming from the torpedoes in this image is more defined in the image, as compared to that seen in the film.

Addendum:

Here is a cutaway taken from the main site's TL commentaries section:

<image snipped because it's been seen 2 or 3 times already>

Can anyone find the ICS cutaway of the Death Star (or is this also from the ICS?)? Squint and you'll see that this cutaway shows the shaft (to the upper left) going nowhere near the station's core, cutting through many decks at an angle. The reactor is above the equator of the station, roughly centered between the pole and the equator, so the shaft doesn't travel to the core itself. The shaft in the image shown here clearly conflicts with the simplified briefing room presentation.

The shaft is also obviously not within the equator, so that's either another shaft, or the diagram shown here is way off.

Is that a screen shot from the movie itself?

No, it seems to be from the Incredible Cross Sections book and can be found in the Turbolaser Commentaries "Turbolaser Firepower" section hosted on the main site here. Look for "Cross-section of Death Star " towards the bottom, where the image is linked.

I think I remember a scene where Dodona shows the torpedo flying down the shaft straight to the reactor.

I've linked to 2 different video clips in the last few pages here. The start of Dodonna's briefing can be seen about halfway down on Page 6 at about the 3:40 mark.

[Darth Tanner]

Every single piece of evidence from the film, from dialog to visuals, indicates that this was an impossible task.

Just to nit pick but both the Rebellion and the Empire thought there was a realistic if statistically minimal chance of achieving the hit without the force. Unless the Imperial officer who wants to get Tarkin's evacuation ship ready knows Luke has mystical powers and factored that into his analysis.

http://www.theforce.net/swtc/Pix/cards/wide/anhtorp.jpg

From that the run that missed was only 3 or so meters out, if the Rebels were able to make further runs their chance of getting the torpedoes down there are not that ridiculously high to be ignorable. Obviously by the time Luke is making his run the rebels have run out of time to make any further runs with most of their force being annihilated but the fact remains that 3 meters isn't a comfortable zone of error for the Empire to be relying on. And that's assuming the attack is launched by fighters, something like a torpedo sphere could saturate the area in torpedoes and guarantee that at least one makes it down the exhaust.

I'm not saying that I agree that the exhaust port is a major design flaw, after all to exploit it you not only need to steal the plans in the first place but deploy a major force to execute repeat runs. Which brings on the problem that a major force would have resulted in the Empire taking the threat seriously and launching their own fighter screen rather than just Darth Vaders personal squadron launching on his own initiative.

[straps on flame retardant material in expectation of slapdown]

The fact that they can resolve the weakness in the design for the second Death Star does reveal that some work around is possible without sacrificing exhaust capability.

Does the Rebel attack in the Death Star novel know about the exhaust port? If not what actually does the attack involve other than a test fire of the super laser to destroy the carrier. Did the Rebels really intend to send a single converted carrier freighter against a moon sized battle station in a straight slugging match?

[Darwin]

It should be noted, this image, apparently a CGI rendering, seems to be from the Behind The Magic CD and does not show exactly what is seen in the movie. The torpedoes seen in the film exhibit more "flaring" and the details of the shaft and surrounding surface are slightly different. The trail coming from the torpedoes in this image is more defined in the image, as compared to that seen in the film.

Is the torpedo cornering scene different in the SE version shown compared to the original/remastered? Not that it matters much, I'm mainly curious. Either way they're being shown to make an incredibly tight turn.

[Stark]

In the old versions there isn't really a cone/warhead thing, it's just a pink blob. It still went from 'horizontal' to 'straight down' the same way, though.

[Batman]

Every single piece of evidence from the film, from dialog to visuals, indicates that this was an impossible task.

Just to nit pick but both the Rebellion and the Empire thought there was a realistic if statistically minimal chance of achieving the hit

Emphasis bolded. Yes, it WAS theoretically possible, but evidently (Exar Kuns jabbering notwithstanding) everybody but Luke (who again despite Exar Kuns jabbering didn't know shit about the problem) thought the task all but impossible.

picture
From that the run that missed was only 3 or so meters out, if the Rebels were able to make further runs their chance of getting the torpedoes down there are not that ridiculously high to be ignorable.

I suspect you meant ridiculously LOW and frankly that doesn't follow. All it means is that their targeting computers are ALMOST good enough to hit the shaft. It doesn't mean they'll get any closer or even hit it on subsequent runs (for which as you point out they didn't have the time-or ships).

but the fact remains that 3 meters isn't a comfortable zone of error for the Empire to be relying on.

Which they knew AFTER the DS1 was destroyed. And we still don't know if there ever was a chance for the fighter's targeting computers to ever land a hit at ALL other than by blind luck. Yes, +/- 3m will EVENTUALLY get you a hit if you fire enough torpedoes but that's an awful lot of fighters you'll have to send down that trench

And that's assuming the attack is launched by fighters, something like a torpedo sphere could saturate the area in torpedoes and guarantee that at least one makes it down the exhaust.

Torpedo sphere? Big? Ponderous? Perfect target for the DS1s defenses which were designed to deal with capital ships? The reason the Rebels used fighters was because they were small enough to get through the defenses. A torpedo sphere is just a kill waiting to happen.

Oh, and @Simon_Jester:That random thing Luke flew back home was a T-16 Skyhopper

[Stark]

How does 'fighter penetrate screen and fly down lightly defended trench to release torpedo at short range to enter port' = 'torpedo sphere spams torpedoes from miles away which = instant kill lol'? Some people are just dumb.

[Serafina]

Ah, the good, old T-16.

Sure, it had controlls similar to an X-wing - but that says squat about its maneuverability, performance etc.

It has a mere maximum speed of 1200 kph. Since it was a repulsorcraft, it is possibly capable of very low speeds or even hovering.

But, sure, keep on claiming that flying an subsonic aircraft (with similar performance to an helicopter) under non-combat conditions makes you an expert on hight-ecm combat conditions in an hypersonic spacecraft.

[Stofsk]

Thankfully Havok has done all the grunt work.

The novelization quote (you know, the novel with "by George Lucas" on it):

FYI, it was actually written by Alan Dean Foster.

Mutterings of disbelief ran through the room. The more experienced the pilot, the greater his expressed disbelief.

Yes, and yet General Dodonna is what, an inexperienced nobody? Disbelief also != impossible task.

The only thing Vader was impressed by was how strong the Force was with Luke. This doesn't make Luke's brash and idiotic attempt to belittle the magnitude of the task in a room full of experienced fliers anything other than just that.

I don't see what's so idiotic about it. Especially considering he ended up bulls-eying the target anyway.

Brash, yes. But it isn't that outrageous for a pilot to be brash.

May be because he can feel it, he's reaction is faster, so he'll make more hits than someone using a computer, but that doesn't change the fact that it can be done without force.

This is not a fact. You have no basis for this claim in the evidence whatsoever. Every single piece of evidence from the film, from dialog to visuals, indicates that this was an impossible task. The only way your idiotic statement could be true would be if you defined one in a million as being anything other than impossible odds.

If it was impossible to accomplish, then why did General Dodonna proceed with the plan? If it couldn't be done, he should have ordered an evacuation of Yavin Base. But he didn't, and Red Leader's strike came close. What might have happened if those Y-wings had gotten a chance to launch their payload?

[Stark]

You know officiers don't communicate 'this is a suicide mission' during briefings, right? This is seen when Dodonna totally ignores the wave of disbelief around the mission and remains calm and continues. Whatever feelings he might have thought of the plan, briefing pilots is not the place to express them.

[Darwin]

If it was impossible to accomplish, then why did General Dodonna proceed with the plan? If it couldn't be done, he should have ordered an evacuation of Yavin Base. But he didn't, and Red Leader's strike came close. What might have happened if those Y-wings had gotten a chance to launch their payload?

The Y-wings probably had better targeting for ordnance, as they were the primary strike force with X-Wings providing cover.
Why did Dodonna proceed with the plan? Cause the Rebellion was fucked if that battlestation stayed operational and this was their best shot at taking it down, even if it was an outside impossibility.

[Wyrm]

No, certainly not. The relevant concern, which you've already independently deduced, is that any features on the order of meters will be swamped by features on the order of tens of kilometers.

You know, I'm curious: which dimensionless number characterizes that? Because one would think that the change in momentum needed for the fluid to go around a sharp kink would cause an excess pressure drop.

I categorically reject the idea that proton torpedos utilize a heretofore-unseen propulsion technology that is independently at odds with the most fundamental of physical laws, unless there is absolutely no way around it. As far as I'm concerned, there's nowhere near enough hard evidence to force us to disregard conservation of momentum. We don't know how the system works, but it is and must be a reaction-based thruster.

Like the Death Star itself used as reaction mass, perhaps, like a set of virtual tires? Bingo! As much delta-V as you want, provided you have the juice.

[Simon_Jester]

From that the run that missed was only 3 or so meters out, if the Rebels were able to make further runs their chance of getting the torpedoes down there are not that ridiculously high to be ignorable. Obviously by the time Luke is making his run the rebels have run out of time to make any further runs with most of their force being annihilated but the fact remains that 3 meters isn't a comfortable zone of error for the Empire to be relying on.

True. But to get a torpedo into the vent at all, you need to overcome some very significant defenses: the Death Star's fighters and surface batteries. Against any enemy who doesn't already know to aim for the port, the port is an insignificant weakness. Against an enemy who does, it's still a very difficult weakness to exploit.

And that's assuming the attack is launched by fighters, something like a torpedo sphere could saturate the area in torpedoes and guarantee that at least one makes it down the exhaust.

Though a torpedo sphere or other capital-class warship would have to float around at long range and make itself a target for the surface guns, which would limit their effectiveness. It would be hard for anything but fighters to take the shot, because only fighters can use the Death Star's own structural features for cover while moving into position.

I'm not saying that I agree that the exhaust port is a major design flaw, after all to exploit it you not only need to steal the plans in the first place but deploy a major force to execute repeat runs. Which brings on the problem that a major force would have resulted in the Empire taking the threat seriously and launching their own fighter screen rather than just Darth Vaders personal squadron launching on his own initiative...
The fact that they can resolve the weakness in the design for the second Death Star does reveal that some work around is possible without sacrificing exhaust capability.

Agreed.

Does the Rebel attack in the Death Star novel know about the exhaust port? If not what actually does the attack involve other than a test fire of the super laser to destroy the carrier. Did the Rebels really intend to send a single converted carrier freighter against a moon sized battle station in a straight slugging match?

I think they were hoping that the battle station would be powered down to the point where it could be destroyed by normal means, sort of like they were hoping with the DS-II at Endor. Bad luck for them that construction was nearly complete, allowing Tarkin to demonstrate "the firepower of this fully armed and operational battle station..."

Personally, I have a few qualms about that attack, not least because it strongly implies that the Rebels have a LOT more X-Wings than I would expect. I wouldn't use it to support my own arguments because while I'll accept that it's canon in the very formalistic system of canon used in Star Wars, I don't like it, because I think it at least implies contradictions with other bits of canon.
________

From that the run that missed was only 3 or so meters out, if the Rebels were able to make further runs their chance of getting the torpedoes down there are not that ridiculously high to be ignorable.

I suspect you meant ridiculously LOW and frankly that doesn't follow. All it means is that their targeting computers are ALMOST good enough to hit the shaft. It doesn't mean they'll get any closer or even hit it on subsequent runs (for which as you point out they didn't have the time-or ships).

I'm going to have to agree with Tanner. Unless Red Leader got ridiculously lucky, the circular error probable on torpedoes fired at the exhaust port would be something like a few meters. If so, Red Leader had a real chance (if only something like one in five or one in ten) of getting the torpedo into a shaft of about four square meters.

The fact that they could get that close means that either Red Leader was insanely lucky, insanely good, or that Rebel targeting computers can aim torpedoes at the exhaust port with a circular error probable of no more than a few meters... in which case they had a reasonable chance of making the shot. Not a high probability, but given the stakes they were gambling for, definitely high enough to make it worthwhile.

Oh, and @Simon_Jester:That random thing Luke flew back home was a T-16 Skyhopper

Thanks. I would have remembered if I'd thought about it for a minute, but I didn't really care because it doesn't make much difference. [shrug]

[Vympel]

FYI, it was actually written by Alan Dean Foster.

I know that, and it's irrelevant. George Lucas appended his name to it, it means he wrote it.

Yes, and yet General Dodonna is what, an inexperienced nobody? Disbelief also != impossible task.

That quote was never intended to convey that it was an impossible task alone, it was posted to refute Exar Kun's silly bullshit about 'we don't know what the pilots were muttering about'. As for General Dodonna, refer to Stark.

I don't see what's so idiotic about it.

You mean apart from the fact that he's never flown an X-Wing, has never fired a proton torpedo, has never used a targeting computer, and has never flown in combat (i.e. high ECM and enemy fire environment)?

No, it's not idiotic at all.

He's speaking from total ignorance. Simply because he ends up hitting the target anyway doesn't make his comments about the targeting computer any less ignorant.

Especially considering he ended up bulls-eying the target anyway

Which had nothing to do with the targeting computer, which is what he was responding to Wedge about.

If it was impossible to accomplish, then why did General Dodonna proceed with the plan? If it couldn't be done, he should have ordered an evacuation of Yavin Base. But he didn't, and Red Leader's strike came close. What might have happened if those Y-wings had gotten a chance to launch their payload?

I imagine they'd miss. I loathe these attempts to make out like anyone could've realistically landed a hit against the exhaust port when all indications are that the targeting computers weren't up to the task, and you've got a force ghost outright telling Luke to forget the targeting computer. It flies in the face of the entire spirit of the film, and has no factual support apart from vague appeals to 'oh well why'd the Rebels try it', as if the destruction of the Death Star no matter the cost was somehow not a prime objective of the Rebellion.

Re: a point about circular error probable. Simply because given enough tries a torpedo (or both) would eventually enter the area of the exhaust port doesn't necessarily mean they'd travel all the way down. The entry angle could still be 'wrong' enough for them to detonate without a precise hit.

The Y-wings probably had better targeting for ordnance, as they were the primary strike force with X-Wings providing cover.

They did - the OT ICS says they had 'slightly' better targeting (due to having 'binocular' sensors on either engine nacelle, as opposed to the single in the X-Wing's nose), which is why they were the primary attack craft.

[erik_t]

No, certainly not. The relevant concern, which you've already independently deduced, is that any features on the order of meters will be swamped by features on the order of tens of kilometers.

You know, I'm curious: which dimensionless number characterizes that? Because one would think that the change in momentum needed for the fluid to go around a sharp kink would cause an excess pressure drop.

One might reasonably consider the duct to be an example of Poiseuille flow (note that this is a laminar analysis, while the flow in the duct would likely be turbulent and therefore experience a high pressure drop just from the straight duct). A well-designed sharp* corner might experience a pressure drop of 15% of the average dynamic pressure. Working through the equations, we might find the following ratio between bend pressure drop and total pressure drop:



Where N is the number of sharp* bends we desire, u_bar is the required average velocity, v (nu) is the kinematic viscosity and L the length of the tube. Assuming 10 bends, 7.5m/s air at 1500K, we might find that the ten (!) bends only contribute about 10% of the total pressure loss. This is, again, a substantial overestimate due to the assumption of laminar flow.


* sharp for our purposes; a maneuvering torpedo would care little about a several-cm corner radius vs one that is mathematically sharp

I categorically reject the idea that proton torpedos utilize a heretofore-unseen propulsion technology that is independently at odds with the most fundamental of physical laws, unless there is absolutely no way around it. As far as I'm concerned, there's nowhere near enough hard evidence to force us to disregard conservation of momentum. We don't know how the system works, but it is and must be a reaction-based thruster.

Like the Death Star itself used as reaction mass, perhaps, like a set of virtual tires? Bingo! As much delta-V as you want, provided you have the juice.[/quote]Yes, I addressed this on the previous page. "Provided you have the juice" is a pretty big assumption for a disposable item, of course. No fancy reactors here, not if you want a torpedo that costs less than a fighter...

[Wyrm]

One might reasonably consider the duct to be an example of Poiseuille flow (note that this is a laminar analysis, while the flow in the duct would likely be turbulent and therefore experience a high pressure drop just from the straight duct). A well-designed sharp* corner might experience a pressure drop of 15% of the average dynamic pressure.

Fifteen percent sounds like a large drop.

Working through the equations,

Which ones?

we might find the following ratio between bend pressure drop and total pressure drop:

http://tiny.cc/b3saCY

The image doesn't show at the time I write this. Please stick to Unicode for your notation.

Where N is the number of sharp* bends we desire, u_bar is the required average velocity, v (nu) is the kinematic viscosity and L the length of the tube. Assuming 10 bends, 7.5m/s air at 1500K, we might find that the ten (!) bends only contribute about 10% of the total pressure loss. This is, again, a substantial overestimate due to the assumption of laminar flow.

None of this answers why "any features on the order of meters will be swamped by features on the order of tens of kilometers". How does the fluid know that it's traveling down a pipe that is ~80 kilometers long?

Yes, I addressed this on the previous page. "Provided you have the juice" is a pretty big assumption for a disposable item, of course. No fancy reactors here, not if you want a torpedo that costs less than a fighter...

Is any amount down to 0 J for each turn enough? See, turning on a perfect circle actually costs no energy intrinsically. This is because the force is perpendicular to the displacement at all times. As anyone who knows basic physics knows, energy is only exchanged when the force is applied parallel to the displacement.

[Simon_Jester]

I imagine they'd miss. I loathe these attempts to make out like anyone could've realistically landed a hit against the exhaust port when all indications are that the targeting computers weren't up to the task, and you've got a force ghost outright telling Luke to forget the targeting computer. It flies in the face of the entire spirit of the film, and has no factual support apart from vague appeals to 'oh well why'd the Rebels try it', as if the destruction of the Death Star no matter the cost was somehow not a prime objective of the Rebellion.

My guess is that the Rebels had a chance of having it work using the targeting computer (say, something like 5 or 10% per torpedo run), enough that the attack actually made sense and wasn't just an intriguing way to lose fighters.. Which, when Luke is the only guy left with any chance of making the shot, is not good enough, so that Luke has no viable option but to "trust the Force" to tell him when to push the button.

Re: a point about circular error probable. Simply because given enough tries a torpedo (or both) would eventually enter the area of the exhaust port doesn't necessarily mean they'd travel all the way down. The entry angle could still be 'wrong' enough for them to detonate without a precise hit.

It's true that there is also a circular error probable in angle-space*, but given the flight profile there are sharp limits on what angles the torpedo can possibly be coming from. If the torpedo has even slight ability to guide itself by terrain rather than just making preprogrammed turns, the real problem is going to be getting it in the shaft in the first place more than getting it in at the right angle.

Is any amount down to 0 J for each turn enough? See, turning on a perfect circle actually costs no energy intrinsically. This is because the force is perpendicular to the displacement at all times. As anyone who knows basic physics knows, energy is only exchanged when the force is applied parallel to the displacement.

Technically true, but most viable methods we know for making an object push itself to one side or the other still require you to expend energy. Do you use magnets? In the Death Star's frame the torpedo is now a moving magnetized object that creates eddy currents in the shaft; the torpedo must supply the energy to start and stop the currents. Do you use rocket engines? You must expend fuel and energy to create the exhaust plume. The list goes on.

Now, you can set up systems using purely conservative forces that burn no energy to maintain a stable orbit... but that isn't the problem the torpedo is trying to solve.