Finally saw all of season 5 SG-1 Atlantis

[dragon]

Well I finally got to see the last season of Atlantis, checked it out form the library. Not bad especailly Vegas was kind of niffty, but the series final Enemy at The Gates was so full of plot holes it wasn't funny. Kind of sucks that the series ended but bad rating tend to do that. Granted at least McKay finally got a girl.

Edit question. When Rodney in Vegas mentioned alternate verse and mentioned whom he ran into, is that the episode with the time-space bridge and exotic particles? If so I thought in that episode the Rodney said he worked with a super smart Sheppard.

[Chris OFarrell]

Repeat after me.

There IS no Enemy at the Gates.

It gets easier and easier each time you say it.

[Vympel]

Indeed, I have never heard of this "Enemy at the Gates". I have nightmarish visions of advanced human starfighters equipped with the greatest technology in the world demonstrating less combat capability than a Soviet, 1980s era MiG-29.

[dragon]

Good at least I wasn't the only one hallucinating.

[Old Plympto]

The best part of season 5 is Bill Nye, Science Guy bitchslapping Dave Foley.

"MAN UP!"

[NecronLord]

Indeed, I have never heard of this "Enemy at the Gates". I have nightmarish visions of advanced human starfighters equipped with the greatest technology in the world demonstrating less combat capability than a Soviet, 1980s era MiG-29.

Eh. I've no problem with that. A Death Glider's propulsion system is superior (thirty two thousand Gs in open space, vs a rocket that has trouble making orbit if you add a few tonnes extra) but they still blow chunks in atmosphere. I don't see why a F-302 should get a free pass and be badass there.

And well, a 302 is much less aerodynamic than a Mig 29. It might be able to make orbit - but only with its bigass tail rocket, which isn't something they seem to use in combat.

[Batman]

Indeed, I have never heard of this "Enemy at the Gates". I have nightmarish visions of advanced human starfighters equipped with the greatest technology in the world demonstrating less combat capability than a Soviet, 1980s era MiG-29.

Eh. I've no problem with that. A Death Glider's propulsion system is superior (thirty two thousand Gs in open space, vs a rocket that has trouble making orbit if you add a few tonnes extra)

Um-that was because they couldn't extend the AMRE field to include the gate, something the Death Gliders wouldn't be suffering from. It's not a fair measure of a 302's acceleration capacities.

but they still blow chunks in atmosphere. I don't see why a F-302 should get a free pass and be badass there.
And well, a 302 is much less aerodynamic than a Mig 29. It might be able to make orbit - but only with its bigass tail rocket, which isn't something they seem to use in combat.

Problem is even without the tail rocket the 302 has much better acceleration than a modern airplane and thanks to inertial compensators better maneuverability (no worrying about the pilot blacking out) and thus SHOULD do better than a MiG-29. I'm with Vampel on this. A wing of F-16s would have gone through those Wraith Darts like they weren't there. Darts have fallen to small arms fire.

[Vympel]

My main problem with the F-302s performance was how ineffective and shit their weapons were. In particular, if they had been equipped with AIM-9X AAMs - or R-73s, like aforesaid MiG-29s- or any of the many modern off-boresight vectored thrust AAMs we have in widespread service, they would've destroyed those Darts in moments, instead, we were treated to archaic nonsense where they tried to use their guns to take them out - and worse, the guns - which are supposed to be rail guns - sucked. An M61 or GSh-301 would've ripped those things to shred in a burst- instead we get railguns = blaster bolts. Pathetic.

And let's not even get into how their AIM-120s were fired at spitting distance- and somehow all shot down by the Wraith darts in the opening salvo. Because you know, tiny missiles flying far faster than an F-302 are easy targets compared to an actual F-302

EDIT: and finally, there's the ultimate contrivance - there are no SAMs and no interceptors anywhere near the Ancient weapons platform. At all.

[NecronLord]

Um-that was because they couldn't extend the AMRE field to include the gate, something the Death Gliders wouldn't be suffering from. It's not a fair measure of a 302's acceleration capacities.

You just made that up.

SAM
The engines were designed for a craft
with a Alien Inertial dampening system
the effectually reduced it's overall
mass.

JACK
Yes, and??


SAM
Well, you'll be carrying a very heavy
load .


SAM
The gate ways 64,000 pounds, Sir.


JACK
That's heavy.


SAM
And you'll need to reach an altitude
exceeding 180 kilometers ...


JACK
... At minimum escape velocity before
I release the gate, or it'll fall back
to Earth ... I know, I know.


SAM
Well, based on the X-302 's fuel burn
capacity, even a full burn won't do
it, which means the other engines will
have to get you part ways up, hauling
something that weighs 6 times greater
than it was designed to carry.

It can't make orbit carrying six times its intended cargo weight - nothing about getting the mass reduction field around the gate or any such nonsense is mentioned. It sure as fuck can't do thirty thousand gravities sustained flight like goa'uld capital ships and gliders can. The goa'uld sublight engines are so grossly superior, they're practically cockslapping them. If goa'uld have to manouver like molasses in atmosphere, I don't see why 302s should be any better.

My main problem with the F-302s performance was how ineffective and shit their weapons were. In particular, if they had been equipped with AIM-9X AAMs - or R-73s, like aforesaid MiG-29s- or any of the many modern off-boresight vectored thrust AAMs we have in widespread service, they would've destroyed those Darts in moments, instead, we were treated to archaic nonsense where they tried to use their guns to take them out - and worse, the guns - which are supposed to be rail guns - sucked. An M61 or GSh-301 would've ripped those things to shred in a burst- instead we get railguns = blaster bolts. Pathetic.

And let's not even get into how their AIM-120s were fired at spitting distance- and somehow all shot down by the Wraith darts in the opening salvo. Because you know, tiny missiles flying far faster than an F-302 are easy targets compared to an actual F-302

Ah, yes, the weapons were quite embarassing.

But then, after four whole seasons of their getting raped, I was cheering for the wraith all throughout Enemy at the Gates anyway.

Though it would have made rather more sense if they'd just sent down, say, a thousand darts, that materialised some kind of nukes over Area 51 and destroyed the whole area. But they had to get their star wars on and have a ww2 dogfight. Honestly, using a thousand darts (and, le gasp, anti-fighter missiles for the Wraith; there's really no reason they shouldn't have them) would have been more entertaining, too. In an "Earth has a few dozen 302s, tops. They all die, culling of the continental US begins" way.

Of course, they still had to have status-quo survive, with magically cloaking the city when it lands in frakking San Fansisco bay. Because it's not as if they've previously established that the cloak and shield can't run simultaneously and the shield is on for landings - oh wait. They didn't even put in a reaction shot of UFO guys around the Area 51 exclusion zone gaping at the fight; because of course, it's not like people would notice darts over the most infamous UFO site in the world...

EDIT: and finally, there's the ultimate contrivance - there are no SAMs and no interceptors anywhere near the Ancient weapons platform. At all.

Ffft. The ultimate contrivance is that they moved the fucking thing for a totally stupid reason. It was rather safer under a mile of ice in a facility with a Lantean shield generator powered by a ZPM with unknown thousands of drones ready to defend it.

[Batman]

Odd. I DO seem to remember something about the problem being they couldn't extend the inertial dampening field far enough to include the gate.
Very well, point naturally withdrawn, especially as it's been a long time since I saw that episode and never saw it in the original anyway.
Still doesn't excuse the sad performance of the 302s (or the complete absence of any OTHER defenses as Vympel mentioned).

[CaptJodan]

Ffft. The ultimate contrivance is that they moved the fucking thing for a totally stupid reason. It was rather safer under a mile of ice in a facility with a Lantean shield generator powered by a ZPM with unknown thousands of drones ready to defend it.

They moved it for a reason I can't even understand or believe. All the contributing, involved countries got together and said the chair violated the Antartic non-proliferation treaty, so....all these countries agree that the US should have it? How is it in anyone elses best interests to give away access to the chair to the US who has all the technology anyway? Were other countries even at this meeting?

Because it's not as if they've previously established that the cloak and shield can't run simultaneously and the shield is on for landings - oh wait.

To be fair, the shield was off when they showed a shot of the city flying though atmopshere. I assume that the shield had taken damage and they couldn't keep it up any longer after reentry. But then how did they reactivate it for the cloak? Hey, anyone's guess. Maybe it was off so they could switch it over to cloak. And we have seen them fly up to a certain altitude with the shield off before, so perhaps that's what they were doing here.

There, my one and only defense of this episode.

Personally, I always get a kick out of missile respawn from Shepherds 302. Goes down to 1 missile in the dogfight, gets 2 more when he goes up to space. That's a new level of character shielding.

*Forgive any spelling errors. I'm on a work computer that seems not to have either Firefox or the most basic Word-style program on it with spell-checking software.

[Batman]

Oh please. Missile respawn is as old as missile-armed fighter movies. Top Gun? Iron Eagle?

[Oskuro]

What are you talking about? They obviously pick up ammo power-ups left behind by defeated enemies.

[NecronLord]

Didn't you know? 302s come with a custom asgard beam. They lock onto a missile in storage, and beam it up.

Seriously, though. I enjoyed Enemy at the Gates - it had a number of flaws, but it was nice to see the Wraith as a threat again, rather than helpless shmoes that get whupped by invincible Tau'ri ships.

[PeZook]

You know, I always wondered how it was at all possible for the Ancients to lose a war agains the Wraith. Yeah, sure: the Wraith had numbers on their side. Doesn't matter much when the enemy can just show up and wipe out your industry literally at will, and even magic sci-fi bioships need places to grow and food/energy.

[Zac Naloen]

You know, I always wondered how it was at all possible for the Ancients to lose a war agains the Wraith. Yeah, sure: the Wraith had numbers on their side. Doesn't matter much when the enemy can just show up and wipe out your industry literally at will, and even magic sci-fi bioships need places to grow and food/energy.

The ancients were careless and let the wraith get hold of ZPM's all over the shop, they cloned massive armies and built super hives like we saw.


Then the ZPM's got all used up.


That's mostly supposition, but I do seem to recall it being implied if not outright stated by Todd.

[CaptJodan]

Didn't you know? 302s come with a custom asgard beam. They lock onto a missile in storage, and beam it up.

Admitted fan of Asgard tech, but even I wouldn't go that far.

Seriously, though. I enjoyed Enemy at the Gates - it had a number of flaws, but it was nice to see the Wraith as a threat again, rather than helpless shmoes that get whupped by invincible Tau'ri ships.

Thing is, the way they initially conceived the Wraith, I always felt Earth should mop them up. The Wraith, as designed, were a bad idea from the beginning. Relatively weak, bio-tech ships with no shields, limited transporting ability, and an MO that screamed "us or them", therefore limited moral ambiguity on the Atlantis team doing everything in their power to wipe the Wraith out (this is somewhat offset later by the retro-virus treatment). The Ancients losing to them, as stated, was highly stupid, but understandable given their annoying overconfidence and superiority complex. But having a competent military organization with the right tools losing to them is even dumber. If not completely wiped out, the show should have at least demonstrated a more robust campaign of hunting the Wraith down than we ever saw. The irony is, we DID see a campaign (for one episode) to hunt down the Asurans using a considerable portion of Earth's resources to do it (and while I don't like how easily the Asurans went down, the episode did show that Earth was capable of mounting an offensive campaign against a threatening adversary). Worse, the Wraith weren't a united threat (later), but were highly fractured, making them an even weaker foe, and thus easier to take down in the long run.

I pretty much hated this episode for the exact same reason you liked it, and why I was frustrated through a lot of Atlantis' run. I really didn't have a problem with the ZPMed super-hive, per say. It showed innovation and creativity on the part of the Wraith, and it did make them a greater threat than the majority of the rest of the show. But I despise the gross incompetence of our heroes in order to make the Wraith that greater threat they need to be. At least half of the success that the Wraith had in EatG resulted from stupid decisions on the part of Earth, not from any intelligent decisions from the Wraith. That's not a good or compelling villain.

[Crazedwraith]

A felt the big problem with the wraith was the lack of individuality among them. Ask anybody who their favourite Wraith was and the answer in most cases is going to be: Todd because in the end, he was the only wraith with a distinct personality. No distinict personality = not that great a villain.

Tangentially; I think season 5 was pretty damn weak. Too much reliance of MacKay and Keller to carry the season. The constant splitting up of the main characters. Joe Flannigan's supposed to be the big star of the show but the only time he really got the flex his acting muscles was Vegas and that was in an AU.

In the end I think 'Search & Rescue' had to be my favourite and for the most part that because of Ford's couple of seconds cameo.

[Darksider]

In the end I think 'Search & Rescue' had to be my favourite and for the most part that because of Ford's couple of seconds cameo.

Erm, What?

[NecronLord]

Thing is, the way they initially conceived the Wraith, I always felt Earth should mop them up. The Wraith, as designed, were a bad idea from the beginning. Relatively weak, bio-tech ships with no shields, limited transporting ability, and an MO that screamed "us or them", therefore limited moral ambiguity on the Atlantis team doing everything in their power to wipe the Wraith out (this is somewhat offset later by the retro-virus treatment).

You know how to stop that? No intergalactic hyperdrive for the Tau'ri. There. Wraith are basically unbeatable.

It became stupid when a single 304 took on an entire Wraith fleet of twelve hives and their escorts, and didn't immediately succumb to a simultaneous barrage.

The Ancients losing to them, as stated, was highly stupid, but understandable given their annoying overconfidence and superiority complex. But having a competent military organization with the right tools losing to them is even dumber.

What? Three or four ships and some ground teams? Is 'competant military organisation with the right tools'? Say what?

If it weren't for Lantean hand-me-downs (Jumpers, ZPMs) the SGA guys would have got raped completely from day one. There would have been no killing Sumner, he would have broken, and the wraith would have simply stormed Atlantis. Then they would have gone to Earth, and harvested it.

If not completely wiped out, the show should have at least demonstrated a more robust campaign of hunting the Wraith down than we ever saw. The irony is, we DID see a campaign (for one episode) to hunt down the Asurans using a considerable portion of Earth's resources to do it (and while I don't like how easily the Asurans went down, the episode did show that Earth was capable of mounting an offensive campaign against a threatening adversary)

Mostly due to author fiat - Asurans mysteriously forget hyperspace sensors, what?

Fucking Tel'taks can see if there's capships waiting at their destination (Revalations) and Lantean sensors can detect hive ships weeks away? Forgetting an obscure reference (ships being able to see what's waiting before they drop out) - fine. But the Lantean sensors were a fucking plot arc in season one. Yet they kept on taking the Asurans by surprise. The only explanation that seems plausible is that the Ascended Ancients were deliberately futzing with the Asurans' hyperspace sensors during that campaign.

With that level of author fiat on their side, the Wraith could easily just drop out of hyper right above the Tau'ri Atlantis colony and blast it before it got its shield up. They took the Asurans down by sheer fappery that'd make the Draka envious.

Saying Earth can mount a serious campaign based on that is like saying the borg are badass soldiers - sure, they kick ass, but that's because the opposition bends over and drops their trousers.

I pretty much hated this episode for the exact same reason you liked it, and why I was frustrated through a lot of Atlantis' run. I really didn't have a problem with the ZPMed super-hive, per say. It showed innovation and creativity on the part of the Wraith, and it did make them a greater threat than the majority of the rest of the show. But I despise the gross incompetence of our heroes in order to make the Wraith that greater threat they need to be. At least half of the success that the Wraith had in EatG resulted from stupid decisions on the part of Earth, not from any intelligent decisions from the Wraith. That's not a good or compelling villain.

Huh? The chair thing? That's pretty dumb, I assume they wanted it that way so they could potentially just bring another chair to Earth (say, from The Tower) for any future episodes involving the outpost.

[Bilbo]

You know, I always wondered how it was at all possible for the Ancients to lose a war agains the Wraith. Yeah, sure: the Wraith had numbers on their side. Doesn't matter much when the enemy can just show up and wipe out your industry literally at will, and even magic sci-fi bioships need places to grow and food/energy.

The ancients were careless and let the wraith get hold of ZPM's all over the shop, they cloned massive armies and built super hives like we saw.


Then the ZPM's got all used up.


That's mostly supposition, but I do seem to recall it being implied if not outright stated by Todd.

The clone armies yes. The super Hiveship no. Everything onscreen suggests that Todd's ship was the first last and only one ever created.

[Oskuro]

A felt the big problem with the wraith was the lack of individuality among them. Ask anybody who their favourite Wraith was and the answer in most cases is going to be: Todd because in the end, he was the only wraith with a distinct personality. No distinict personality = not that great a villain.

Agreeing here. It's not like personality-less villians hadn't been played with before, and individual characters had to be created to make them more compelling *cough* Borg Queen *cough*

Although Michael was somewhat memorable, except that he felt a bit wimpy, instead of the badass mastermind they try to sell him as.

[Bilbo]

A felt the big problem with the wraith was the lack of individuality among them. Ask anybody who their favourite Wraith was and the answer in most cases is going to be: Todd because in the end, he was the only wraith with a distinct personality. No distinict personality = not that great a villain.

Agreeing here. It's not like personality-less villians hadn't been played with before, and individual characters had to be created to make them more compelling *cough* Borg Queen *cough*

Although Michael was somewhat memorable, except that he felt a bit wimpy, instead of the badass mastermind they try to sell him as.

Michael was an evil mastermind. The only problem is that we only see it in an alternate reality manner when Shep is hurled into the future.

This is also the episode where we see that even a fully Asgard upgraded 304 will be defeated and quickly if ambushed by three wraith hiveships.

[Bilbo]

Well I finally got to see the last season of Atlantis, checked it out form the library. Not bad especailly Vegas was kind of niffty, but the series final Enemy at The Gates was so full of plot holes it wasn't funny. Kind of sucks that the series ended but bad rating tend to do that. Granted at least McKay finally got a girl.

Edit question. When Rodney in Vegas mentioned alternate verse and mentioned whom he ran into, is that the episode with the time-space bridge and exotic particles? If so I thought in that episode the Rodney said he worked with a super smart Sheppard.

No, that cannot be the same Rodney since he went by Rod. My guess if one of two things. The first and easiest answer is that in an infinite number of realities this Rodney is talking about an event we know nothing about. If it is an event we know of, and based on how it appeared to be an embarassing event, I would guess that the reality jumping experiment where this Rodney messed up was the Daedalus with the reality drive. This was embarassing instead of deadly because it appears that the ship jumped realities with no one on-board at the time.

[Zac Naloen]

You know, I always wondered how it was at all possible for the Ancients to lose a war agains the Wraith. Yeah, sure: the Wraith had numbers on their side. Doesn't matter much when the enemy can just show up and wipe out your industry literally at will, and even magic sci-fi bioships need places to grow and food/energy.

The ancients were careless and let the wraith get hold of ZPM's all over the shop, they cloned massive armies and built super hives like we saw.


Then the ZPM's got all used up.


That's mostly supposition, but I do seem to recall it being implied if not outright stated by Todd.

The clone armies yes. The super Hiveship no. Everything onscreen suggests that Todd's ship was the first last and only one ever created.

I'll take your word for it, no way I'm watching enemy at the gates when I don't need to.


It's pretty clear the ancients ended up being out numbered 1000's to 1 even if there was only a limited number of hives, they lost a war of attrition and eventually decided it was best just to leave and continue their ascension research in the Milky Way.

It's also quite likely the Wraith had a civil war that reduced their numbers immediately after the ancients left, considering the fractious nature of their society.