"We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

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"We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Uraniun235 »

Thatcher told Gorbachev Britain did not want German reunification

Two months before the fall of the Berlin Wall, Margaret Thatcher told President Gorbachev that neither Britain nor Western Europe wanted the reunification of Germany and made clear that she wanted the Soviet leader to do what he could to stop it.

In an extraordinary frank meeting with Mr Gorbachev in Moscow in 1989 — never before fully reported — Mrs Thatcher said the destabilisation of Eastern Europe and the breakdown of the Warsaw Pact were also not in the West’s interests. She noted the huge changes happening across Eastern Europe, but she insisted that the West would not push for its decommunisation. Nor would it do anything to risk the security of the Soviet Union.

Even 20 years later, her remarks are likely to cause uproar. They are all the more explosive as she admitted that what she said was quite different from the West’s public pronouncements and official Nato communiqués. She told Mr Gorbachev that he should pay no attention to these.

“We do not want a united Germany,” she said. “This would lead to a change to postwar borders, and we cannot allow that because such a development would undermine the stability of the whole international situation and could endanger our security.”

Her hardline views emerge from a remarkable cache of official Kremlin records smuggled out of Moscow. After Mr Gorbachev left office in 1991, copies of the state archives went to his personal foundation in Moscow. A few years ago Pavel Stroilov, a young writer doing research at the foundation, understood the huge historical significance of what they recorded. He copied more than 1,000 transcripts of all the Politburo discussions and brought them with him when he moved to London to continue his research.

His copies were made just in time, as all the transcripts of Politburo meetings and talks with foreign leaders have now been sealed. The records detail how the Russians reacted to the tumultuous events of 1989 and reveal the frantic attempts by Britain and France to halt moves to German unification by manoeuvring the Soviet Union into opposing it.

They also show the complete bemusement in the Kremlin in the face of riots across Eastern Europe and the flight of thousands of East Germans to Hungary and Czechoslovakia. And they make vividly clear Mr Gorbachev’s hatred of the old East European Communist leaders — he referred once to East Germany’s Erich Honecker as an “arsehole”,and his naive belief that if they were removed from office, East Europeans would be grateful to the Russians for promoting perestroika.

Mrs Thatcher knew full well that her remarks would cause a row if revealed. She was already courting controversy — especially among Solidarity supporters in Poland and the West — by telling Mr Gorbachev that she was “deeply impressed” by the courage and patriotism of General Wojciech Jaruzelski, the Polish Communist leader. She noted, approvingly, that Mr Gorbachev had reacted “calmly” to the results of the Polish elections, in which the Communists were defeated for the first time in an open vote in Eastern Europe, and to the other changes in Eastern Europe.

“My understanding of your position is the following: you welcome each country developing in its own way, on condition that the Warsaw Pact remains in place. I understand this position perfectly.”

Then she launched her bombshell. She asked that her next remarks should not be recorded. Mr Gorbachev agreed — but the Kremlin transcript included them anyway, noting laconically: “The following part of the conversation is reproduced from memory.” She spoke of her deep “concern” at what was going on in East Germany. She said “big changes” could be afoot.

And this led to her fear that it would all eventually lead to German reunification — an official goal of Western policy for more than a generation.

She assured Mr Gorbachev that President Bush also wanted to do nothing that would be seen by the Russians as a threat to their security. The same assurance was later spelt out in person to Mr Gorbachev at the Soviet- American summit off Malta.

The Kremlin records are an extraordinary snapshot of the confusion that accompanied the collapse of communism across Eastern Europe. The Russians knew that East Germany was vital to their interests, but they could no longer afford to prop it up. And Mr Gorbachev was determined not to send in troops in yet another bloody Soviet crackdown.

Amazingly, the Russians even discussed pulling down the Berlin Wall themselves, as revealed in Kremlin notes of a Poliburo discussion on November 3, 1989 — six days before the wall was opened:

[Vladimir] Kryuchkov [head of the KGB]: Tomorrow 500,000 people will come out on the streets of Berlin and other cities . . .

Gorbachev: Are you hoping that Krenz [Honecker’s replacement as party boss] will stay? We won’t be able to explain it to our people if we lose the GDR. However, we won’t be able to keep it afloat without the FRG [West Germany].

[Eduard] Shevardnadze [Foreign Minister]: We’d better take down the wall ourselves.

Kryuchkov: It will be difficult for them if we take it down.

Gorbachev: They [East Germany] will be bought up whole . . . And when they reach world prices, living standards will fall immediately. The West doesn’t want German reunification but wants to use us to prevent it, to cause a clash between us and the FRG so as to rule out the possibility of a future “conspiracy” between the USSR and Germany.

Mrs Thatcher was not the only one worried by events in Germany. A month after the Berlin Wall came down, Jacques Attali, the personal adviser to President Mitterrand, met Vadim Zagladin, a senior Gorbachev aide, in Kiev.

Mr Attali said that Moscow’s refusal to intervene in East Germany had “puzzled the French leadership” and questioned whether “the USSR has made peace with the prospect of a united Germany and will not take any steps to prevent it. This has caused a fear approaching panic.”

He then stated bluntly, echoing Mrs Thatcher: “France by no means wants German reunification, although it realises that in the end it is inevitable.”

In April 1990, five months after the wall came down, Mr Attali said that the spectre of reunification was causing nightmares among France’s politicians. The documents quote him telling Mr Mitterrand that he would “fly off to live on Mars” if this happened.

Mr Gorbachev’s most difficult meetings were with the old guard in the Warsaw Pact. They were all deeply suspicion of his attempts to reform Communism. The fiercest opposition came from East Berlin.

Honecker was aged, unwell and unbending. The East German leadership feared that he was losing control and wanted to dump him. Mr Gorbachev insisted they had to sort things out themselves. Egon Krenz, Honecker’s deputy, thinking that he needed the Kremlin’s permission, had already suggested to Mr Gorbachev a coup. Three weeks later, Honecker was ousted.

Mr Gorbachev saw the chaos for himself when he went to East Berlin for the fortieth anniversary celebrations of East Germany. The entry for October 9 in the diary of Anatoli Chernayev, the Kremlin aide responsible for links with fellow Communist parties, records the tumultuous situation.

“As M.S. [Mikhail Sergeyevich Gorbachev] and Honecker walked together, a continuous roar in the air: ‘Gorby! Gorby!’ emanated from the thousands of people. Nobody paid attention to Erich . . . There were around 20 various leaders in attendance (Zhivkov, Ceaucescu, Nicaraguan Ortega etc) but nobody gave them much heed. All festivities concentrated on Gorbachev’s presence in Berlin.

“On October 10, the Socialist Unity Party of Germany will have a plenum . . . They might overthrow Erich. Otherwise it will soon come to a storm on the wall.”

Mr Chernayev noted that “all of Europe” was raving about Mr Gorbachev in Berlin. “And everybody is whispering in our ear, ‘It is good that the USSR has delicately expressed its stance against German reunification’.”

Politicians who met Mr Gorbachev’s advisers around Europe “say in unison that nobody wants a unified Germany”. Astonishingly, he noted, in France Mr Mitterrand was even thinking of a military alliance with Russia to stop it, “camouflaged as a joint use of armies to fight natural disasters”.

Mr Chernayev recorded Mr Gorbachev’s loathing of Honecker. “M.S. called him an arsehole. He said, ‘He could have said to his people that he has had four operations, he is 78, he does not have the strength to fill his position, so could they please let him go as he has done his duty. Then, maybe, he would have remained an esteemed figure in history.’ ”

If he had left two or three years earlier, he would have had a place in history, Mr Gorbachev said. Instead, Honecker was “cursed by the people”.

After the wall fell, Mr Gorbachev’s relaxed attitude to reunification hardened. At his summit with Mr Bush, he insisted that this should happen only as part of a general rapprochement in Europe. He accused the West of trying to “impose” Western values on Eastern Europe.

He also launched a ferocious attack on Helmut Kohl,the German Chancellor, for hurrying along discussion of unification. The next day, in Moscow, he accused Mr Kohl of issuing an ultimatum, of pushing unification for electoral reasons and of betraying agreements already made with Moscow.

Even in 1990 Mrs Thatcher was still trying to slow things down. “I am convinced that reunification needs a long transition period,” she told Mr Gorbachev. “All Europe is watching this not without a degree of fear, remembering very well who started the two world wars.”

It took another year of tough negotiations involving both Germanies and the four victorious wartime allies before a deal was done on unification.

Translation of the documents and additional research by Sergei Cristo.

Steps to unity

June 12, 1987 President Reagan, in a speech in front of Berlin’s Brandenburg Gate, demands: “Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall!”

July 17, 1989 Border controls lifted between Hungary and Austria. GDR citizens flee to the West

October 7 During a visit to the GDR, Gorbachev urges reform

October 18 Erich Honecker, East Germany’s head of state, resigns. A new Government prepares a law to lift travel restrictions for East Germans going to the West

November 4 More than 500,000 people demonstrate in East Berlin, demanding reform

November 9 The Politburo announces that East Germans are allowed to move freely into West Germany. Tens of thousands flock to the Berlin Wall. Border guards with no clear orders stand aside and East Germans stream through

November 10 The Brandenburg Gate is opened

May 18, 1990 The two German states sign a treaty on monetary, economic and social union, which comes into force on July 1

October 3 East Germany joins the Federal Republic of Germany
Source: German Embassy and Times database

"Oooh the big bad Germans will suddenly become a bloodthirsty juggernaut as soon as they're reunited!!"

I wonder who else was opposed to reunification.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Kane Starkiller »

I doubt they actually thought Germany will go Nazi on the continent as soon as it is unified however that still doesn't make UK and France want to see their historic competitor for European domination reforming. Much better if it remains divided and a junior partner.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by RedImperator »

From what I can tell, there was quite a lot of anxiety about a unified Germany across the West in 1989. Frankly, I think they had good reason. In the 71 years it existed, united Germany kicked the shit out of the Napoleon III and occupied Paris (it wasn't fully unified in the Franco-Prussian War, but Prussia went to war with most of the future unified Germany as allies), became an imperial rival in Africa, the South Pacific, and China, built an industrial economy to rival Britain's, nearly occupied Paris a second time in both 1914 and 1918, wriggled out from under a punitive treaty designed to prevent it from every being a major military power again, smashed the French (and the rest of Western Europe) in 1940, and bombed the living shit out of Britain from 1940-1945. Britain and France went broke and lost their empires due to the effort of beating the Germans in 1939-45 (to say nothing of the suffering in the Soviet Union). From their perspective, a unified Germany had been nothing but trouble, and there was no guarantee it wouldn't be trouble again in the future.

And then there's Britain and France's longstanding geopolitical goals: France wishes to be the dominant power on the European continent, and British policy has consistently been opposed to the rise of any continental hegemon, especially in Central and Eastern Europe (it is, reluctantly, resigned to the existence of France). A unified Germany is antithetical to both these goals.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Serafina »

RedImperator wrote:From what I can tell, there was quite a lot of anxiety about a unified Germany across the West in 1989. Frankly, I think they had good reason. In the 71 years it existed, united Germany kicked the shit out of the Napoleon III and occupied Paris (it wasn't fully unified in the Franco-Prussian War, but Prussia went to war with most of the future unified Germany as allies), became an imperial rival in Africa, the South Pacific, and China, built an industrial economy to rival Britain's, nearly occupied Paris a second time in both 1914 and 1918, wriggled out from under a punitive treaty designed to prevent it from every being a major military power again, smashed the French (and the rest of Western Europe) in 1940, and bombed the living shit out of Britain from 1940-1945. Britain and France went broke and lost their empires due to the effort of beating the Germans in 1939-45 (to say nothing of the suffering in the Soviet Union). From their perspective, a unified Germany had been nothing but trouble, and there was no guarantee it wouldn't be trouble again in the future.

And then there's Britain and France's longstanding geopolitical goals: France wishes to be the dominant power on the European continent, and British policy has consistently been opposed to the rise of any continental hegemon, especially in Central and Eastern Europe (it is, reluctantly, resigned to the existence of France). A unified Germany is antithetical to both these goals.
Which quite nicely overlooked the fact that (Western) Germany and Great Britain had been close allies for fourty years.
And the simple fact that the reunification has been quite expensive
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by RedImperator »

Serafina wrote:Which quite nicely overlooked the fact that (Western) Germany and Great Britain had been close allies for fourty years.
Out of necessity, first because the Warsaw Pact was so bug-fuck enormous that it could squash any individual western European country, and second because West Germany alone wasn't strong enough to go it alone even without WARPAC around. The worry was that with WARPAC dissolved and Germany reunified, Germany wouldn't have to bother with its Cold War alliances.
And the simple fact that the reunification has been quite expensive
I don't know if anybody really anticipated how expensive it would be until the project was already underway. East Germany was a basket case by 1989, but the Commies were good at cooking the books for outsiders so they looked less poor than they were.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

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RedImperator wrote:
Serafina wrote:Which quite nicely overlooked the fact that (Western) Germany and Great Britain had been close allies for fourty years.
Out of necessity, first because the Warsaw Pact was so bug-fuck enormous that it could squash any individual western European country, and second because West Germany alone wasn't strong enough to go it alone even without WARPAC around. The worry was that with WARPAC dissolved and Germany reunified, Germany wouldn't have to bother with its Cold War alliances.
At this time, Germany was already a founding member of the European Communities (the precedessor of the European Union).
There was way more cooperation than just a military alliance out of necessity.
At this time, the treaty of rome had just been revisited with the Single European Act - which planned a Single european Market for 1992.

Despite the historic experience, assuming that Germany was going to become a threat was just not justified.
We had absolutley no reason for any kind of agression.
We had treaties for cooperation in research, economics, politics, education and various other things with France, Great Britain and several other european countries.

The only reasonable fear was an increased political influence of Germany - which actually happened.
But that is hardly a reason to keep it divided.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Teebs »

Surely it would have been simple realpolitik. Within Western Europe (and therefore the EU) there are four big countries -UK, France, Italy and Germany. Italy is and was a bit of a joke, despite its rough parity in size and wealth and West Germany was roughly the same size as Britain and France but tended to be a bit restrained in international affairs due to its history. This meant that Britain and France were effectively the two most important powers in Europe (ignoring Russia). Reunification increased West Germany's population by a third and suddenly it would have been considerably bigger than any of the other big countries in Western Europe. It doesn't have to be a worry about them going mad and invading everyone, simply wanting to maintain your own dominant position is a good enough reason, and that dominant position would become untenable, at least in the long run, in the face of a much larger reunited Germany.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by RedImperator »

Serafina wrote:
RedImperator wrote:
Serafina wrote:Which quite nicely overlooked the fact that (Western) Germany and Great Britain had been close allies for fourty years.
Out of necessity, first because the Warsaw Pact was so bug-fuck enormous that it could squash any individual western European country, and second because West Germany alone wasn't strong enough to go it alone even without WARPAC around. The worry was that with WARPAC dissolved and Germany reunified, Germany wouldn't have to bother with its Cold War alliances.
At this time, Germany was already a founding member of the European Communities (the precedessor of the European Union).
There was way more cooperation than just a military alliance out of necessity.
At this time, the treaty of rome had just been revisited with the Single European Act - which planned a Single european Market for 1992.
Nobody had any idea in 1989 if the EC had any long-term future. It obviously worked out, but Thatcher and Mitterand didn't have psychic powers. I'm not saying their position was right--plainly, Europe is better off with Germany unified than it would be without it, given how history has worked out--but that it was understandable.
Despite the historic experience, assuming that Germany was going to become a threat was just not justified.
We had absolutley no reason for any kind of agression.
We had treaties for cooperation in research, economics, politics, education and various other things with France, Great Britain and several other european countries.
Military aggression isn't the only kind of competition between nations. United Germany was a major economic rival to Britain and France almost immediately after formation. It stunned Britain especially, since it was used to being the undisputed top industrial power in Europe. And there's no guarantee in 1989 that the EU will work, meaning Germany could become an economic rival overnight again.
The only reasonable fear was an increased political influence of Germany - which actually happened.
But that is hardly a reason to keep it divided.
Why not? Its in the interest of both countries to minimize Germany's diplomatic influence, especially with a power vacuum developing in Eastern Europe. France wants to be the predominant power on the continent, and Britain fears a continental hegemon--which Germany has historically shown the potential to be. It doesn't have to become a hegemon through military aggression. Economic and political dominance of central and eastern Europe would do nicely. Just because it didn't happen that way (because German power was subsumed into the EU) doesn't mean it wasn't a legitimate concern for Britain and France.

And as Teebs said, even if they have nothing to fear, they certainly enjoyed being the two biggest players in Western Europe for forty years. Nations don't willingly cede positions of dominance out of the goodness of their hearts.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Fingolfin_Noldor »

The elite in Britain, even up to now, even after the collapse of its colonial empire, still clings to some degree of aspirations with regard to foreign policy. It still craves for the influence it used to wield. In some ways, the reason why Britain is willing to side with the US for most of the time, is because of commonality of foreign policy. In the case of Germany, Germany was the boogeyman, the nightmare in the early 20th century, and it should not be surprising that some would fear the return of a strong power that has shown to have incredible rejuvenating powers again.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by K. A. Pital »

Fingolfin_Noldor wrote:The elite in Britain, even up to now, even after the collapse of its colonial empire, still clings to some degree of aspirations with regard to foreign policy.
I will have to second that. Especially Thatcher, with her brutal, heavy-handed approach to foreign policy and the creation of bogeymen on the world arena and in domestic politics as well.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

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Funny thing is I showed this to my German wife from West Germany and she sorta agrees. There still are a lot of west Germans that don't like the east Germans and believe that the wall should have stayed up.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

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dragon wrote:Funny thing is I showed this to my German wife from West Germany and she sorta agrees. There still are a lot of west Germans that don't like the east Germans and believe that the wall should have stayed up.
Which is exactly the same mindset a lot of people in western Europe have when it come to expansion of the EU into eastern Europe. And I bet if you went back in time you'd find the same the same attitude when Spain became a member of the EC in 1986, or when Ireland finally joined in 1973. Many people just loathe to have to share their prosperity with the less fortunate, even when doing so proved succesful at increasing overall wealth in the past. People are short-sighted... Who'd have thought?

I can see why Britain would be hesitant to support the reunification of Germany, after all it would be a serious competitor for influence on the continent. Besides which political allies of convenience in Europe were never adverse to stabbing each other in the back if doing so happened to benefit them - I bet the British remembered how De Gaulle torpedoed their submittal for membership of the EC in the early sixties. It's surprising Thatcher would go as far as to conspire with Gorbachev to prevent reunification, but, well, this is Margaret Thatcher we're talking about. Throwing people under the bus for the greater benefit of Britain was her thing.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Darth Wong »

I don't know if younger people can properly appreciate the feelings that the older generation would have had toward Germany. This is a simple issue of generational proximity; the older generation SAW the horrors that Germany inflicted humanity. It's all too easy for a 25 year old today to dismiss it as ancient history.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Broomstick »

Serafina wrote:Despite the historic experience, assuming that Germany was going to become a threat was just not justified.
We had absolutley no reason for any kind of agression.
We had treaties for cooperation in research, economics, politics, education and various other things with France, Great Britain and several other european countries.
The generation that lived through WWII do not find it so easy to forget and forgive. While I am happy with the way things turned out, in 1989 my first reaction to hearing about a reunified Germany was "I hope we don't have to go through Nazi shit again somewhere down the road".

Germany utterly smashed the world's trust in its goodness and morality in WWII. It will take a LOT of time to fully regain that trust. Too many people had their families butchered, too many people had their homes bombed while they we're cowering in the cellar, too many people were displaced, starving, and lost everything for there not to be some trepidation and suspicion towards Germany. I'm sorry about that for the younger generation who had no part in the atrocities in the 1930's and 1940's and who genuinely have chosen a different path but it's going to take at least until the WWII generation dies out for the rest of the world to start really trusting Germany again, and maybe not even then.

Same reason the US still doesn't let Japan have anything more than a self-defense force of very limited scope, even if guarding their asses is such a pain. Even more than Germany, no one trusts Japan to behave itself with an army. At least the Germans have admitted their sins and are trying to demonstrate they have changed their ways, the Japanese are still in denial about how they came to have to atomic bombs dropped on their heads.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Uraniun235 »

Same reason the US still doesn't let Japan have anything more than a self-defense force of very limited scope, even if guarding their asses is such a pain.
What pain? We get a massive military base on the west Pacific, near the eastern borders of two major rivals (Russia, China) and North Korea. The average Japanese citizen probably dislikes it more than the average American citizen - definitely so in the case of the Okinawans.


I guess the real question is, aside from some East Germans, who actually wanted reunification? And, if it was so unwanted by governments on both sides, why did it happen anyway?
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Darth Wong »

Uraniun235 wrote:I guess the real question is, aside from some East Germans, who actually wanted reunification? And, if it was so unwanted by governments on both sides, why did it happen anyway?
Presumably the ethnic and cultural heritage of Germany, which itself is a bit scary as a persistant social force.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by salm »

Uraniun235 wrote: I guess the real question is, aside from some East Germans, who actually wanted reunification? And, if it was so unwanted by governments on both sides, why did it happen anyway?
Reunification was massively pushed by the West Germanys government. It was chancellor Kohls pet issue and he wanted to be and actually is remembered as the "Einheitskanzler" which translates to unity chancellor.
I can´t remember that very well since i was pretty young in the 80s but i think the general support of the people was pretty heavy as well. People started only to oppose it when it was allready done and the notion dawned on the idiots that the unificaton would be a massive financial burden.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Kane Starkiller »

Unification had a huge popular support from both sides of the wall. It wasn't until later that some people from West Germany started blaming every economic downturn on those freeloading East Germans.
This is, of course, bullshit. West Germany added 110,000 km2 to it's territory and 16 million educated people. That is a third of it's territory and population and it's a net gain no matter how you slice it.

As for being scared of German violent past I guess that had an influence in UK and French thinking as well however the main reason was geopolitical. Nazi past or no Nazi past they didn't want German reemergence as a rival power.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Serafina »

Uraniun235 wrote: I guess the real question is, aside from some East Germans, who actually wanted reunification? And, if it was so unwanted by governments on both sides, why did it happen anyway?
A lot of people, an not only east germans.

First, there still were a lot of split families. My own grandmother "lost" (yes, she is still using that word) most of her family - they were in East, she in West Germany.
Then, of course, there were the imigrants from the GDR which had to leave most or all of their families behind.

Second, a lot of people saw it as a national tragedy. Some even compared it to the Versailles treaty.

Third, most people knew the differences in between East and West Germany. And yes, west germans cared about that - it was just too close not to care about.


You just have to look at how the people rejoiced once the Wall fell.

I don't want to call myself qualified on the subject, but i want to specualate anyway:
What if the reunification had not happened?

Myself, i see it as an inevitability once the Sovient Union is no more. Too many people wanted it, and there were valid reasons for both parts of Germany to want it. While it did cost a lot of money, the economic position of Germay was actually stengthened.
If any outside goverment had tried to openly prevent it, there would have happened.
But i really do not see that any goverment would have wanted to apply enough political pressure to prevent it.
It was chancellor Kohls pet issue and he wanted to be and actually is remembered as the "Einheitskanzler" which translates to unity chancellor.
EVERY political party wanted reunification (perhaps with the exception of some extremist ones).
But while the CDU wanted to just assimilate the GDR into the BRD (which happened), the SPD basically wanted to create a new country - which was originally intended after Germany was divided.
They would have created a new constitution - our "Grundgesetz", which translates roughly with "basic law" was orginally intended to be temporary and replaced by a "real" constitution once Germany was no longer divided.
Had the SPD won, this is what would have happened.
This is, of course, bullshit. West Germany added 110,000 km2 to it's territory and 16 million educated people. That is a third of it's territory and population and it's a net gain no matter how you slice it.
Yes, it was a net gain.
However, it still did cost a lot of money.
NO capitalistic structures existed in East Germany. Also, the industrial standards lacked behind several years (between 5 and ten). Which meant that under an capitalistic system, East Germay did not produce a lot of money.
The goverment had to compensate for that. Unfortunately, there the goverment of that time screwed up - they did not really manage to attact any investors.
I would not call East Germany the "shithole" of Germany, but it goes in that direction.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Tanasinn »

Of course there were people opposed to German reunification in Germany. The lolbertarian isn't a uniquely American phenomenon - no matter where you go in the world, there will be people who will sieze their money in white-knuckled grips and scream "MINE!" when you bring up the smallest chance of taking some for a society's greater benefit. That this cropped up in an undertaking as vast as German unification isn't really surprising.

This is merely speculation, but I have to think that the British and French would have gone a long way to actually creating a (diplomatically) hostile/resentful Germany if their attempts to keep the country divided had come to light immediately.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Big Orange »

I don't think things are going too well in Germany with a car industry that seems stagnant and a former East Germany still not over its Communist past, but unlike post-Thatcher Britain, at least the Germany has a economy more geared towards serving society and not the other way around. The car industry worldwide has become unsustainable and bloated in the last few decades, yet Germany still has iconic automobile firms that have endured and not been demolished like Rover MG has.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Broomstick »

Uraniun235 wrote:
Same reason the US still doesn't let Japan have anything more than a self-defense force of very limited scope, even if guarding their asses is such a pain.
What pain? We get a massive military base on the west Pacific, near the eastern borders of two major rivals (Russia, China) and North Korea. The average Japanese citizen probably dislikes it more than the average American citizen - definitely so in the case of the Okinawans.
While there are some advantages to the US military base in the Pacific, there is a cost to maintaining it. We also still have a treaty with Japan that if ever they are attacked WE are pledged to defend them as we have (at least in theory) gutted their ability to defend themselves. This may have prevented some warfare in Asia with so few willing to risk the ire of the US (that is debatable) but if ever a war does start in that part of the world the US will be paying in "blood and treasure". Actual cost, and potential cost.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Pablo Sanchez »

The thing that Thatcher was probably most worried about was the issue of a unified Germany's Eastern frontier, which could have been called into question by unification. West Germany and East Germany had both affirmed the Oder-Neisse line in separate treaties during the Cold War but there was the not unrealistic fear that the reunion of the DDR and BRD would reopen the issue and seriously destabilize relations between NATO and the Warsaw Pact. The BRD was actually made to basically affirm the new border on four separate occasions; once in 1970 under Willy Brandt in exchange for somewhat thawed relations with the East, again in 1990 as part of the agreement between the BRD, GDR, and the four former occupying powers to proceed with unification, yet another time as part of the 1990 GDR-BRD unification process, and finally in the 1990 bilateral German-Polish border settlement. So you can see there was a very real anxiety in the international that Germany would try to claim Pomerania, Silesia, and East Prussia from Poland and the USSR, which would have had very serious consequences.
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Thanas »

Everyone who thinks germans did not want reunification needs to get up and actually read about the history of Germany. Unification was the most important goal of german policy ever since Germany was divided.

Anyone who says different simply does not know about German history or is someone who hated east germany (like Adenauer).
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Re: "We do not want a united Germany" -Margaret Thatcher, 1989

Post by Straha »

There's really nothing new in this thread. A lot of people in the west were terrified of German Reunification and Thatcher outright says that she was against it in her memoirs. A lot of the west was anti-reunification for any number of reasons. Some were convinced it would take Germany out of NATO and turn it into an Austria or even into the Soviet sphere of influence, others thought it would destroy the West German economy because of how backwards the East was (they were right, partially), others were convinced that there would be no way for there to be a happy unification or one that would allow the German people to forgive the East German rulers. It was a complex issue with complex views on all sides.
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