The Second Coming of Christ

[Darth Cirrocu]

Because that belief itself is frightening. Are only real things frightening to you? You've never gotten scared at a good horror film?

Aren't you the least bit disconcerted that some Muslims actually believe a suicide bombing earns them a spot in Paradise? Don't you worry that that belief could lead to needless death and violence? I am. I feel similarly about Christian beliefs of Heaven, Hell, Judgment Day, et cetera, because those beliefs can be and have been used to justify unspeakable atrocities.

I guess from my point of view evil is what scares me the most. I could care less if somebody desires to kill me because I'm white, Christian, American, blue-eyed, or I wear glasses. I'm dead just the same.

Naturally, evil will never be completely eradicated from the world. An atheist has the same capacity for evil as a Christian, Muslim, agnostic, or Wiccan. In my case, I'm thinking that my strong, Christian upbringing by my parents has instilled in me values that make me going out and murdering a bunch of people, or organizing a cult to do so, a very remote possibility. That strong upbringing also enabled me to tell the difference between teachings that are according to God's Word and wacko nutjobs who are using God's Word for their own ends. Like you, I have little tolerance for the latter, probably moreso because I see them as corrupting and perverting my beliefs.

Typical religiously bigoted response. This country isn't giving me all the freedoms that it has promised me, so I should move and not complain about it? Ever think that there may be something wrong with the government?

List those freedoms you've been denied again? What rights have been violated?

There's plenty wrong with the US Gubmint. Trust me. However, none of those problems can trace their causes back to "an endorsement of Judeo-Christian beliefs."

Unlike you, I actually, truly believe in the concept of inalienable rights. The fact that you find atheists' rights to be something to be tossed out the window runs contrary to your "cold, dead hands" rant. You're a hypocrite, and you're not defending the Constitution. Only your perverted version of it.

If you say so. <shrug> I'm still not seeing how your right to be an atheist is being taken away. Maybe you feel excluded or uncomfortable in certain situations, but your rights are still intact.

In other words, they can't find stability without devoting their lives to pointless conversion missions based in religious bigotry and self-serving beliefs. Apparently, finding friendship and comfort in their fellow man isn't good enough. Jesus has to be involved in everything. It's annoying.
.....
Only because they think that the rest of the world will suffer for eternity if they don't. Preachers give themselves an important mission: save everyone's eternal soul. They aren't content unless they're shoving their beliefs down others' throats through governmental channels. I don't buy this "spread the joy" bullshit. Their motives are fueled by intolerance, as much as they delude themselves into thinking the opposite.

Wow. You have quite an insight into a whole group of people that I'm wagering you don't associate with on a regular basis.

Both. Many of America's laws are enacted because Christians want them to be, not because they violate others' rights or hurt anyone. They are there to appease Christians. That's against the Constitution.

And you know that the only people who were appeased were Christians? I think the term "constituents" would be more accurate.

You're starting to delve into Pink Elephant territory. "Oh no, the big bad Christians are all out to get me! All those laws are only passed because Christians want them to be! They don't want me to be able to be an atheist!"

Yes. You hold the belief that a minority's rights are subject to dismissal if the majority consents to it. You fight for nothing even resembling the US Constitution.

Again, if you say so. I think the people I serve with would disagree. But the again, several of them are Christians. I guess deep down we're all hoping Ashcroft's Secret Plan to plant a big ol' cross on top of the Capitol Rotunda bears fruit real soon thanks to all of our hard work.

I've got a better idea. How about you defend my rights by actually recognizing that they exist, first? Then, maybe, we can talk about dying for them. I have the right to be free from governmental endorsement of religious ideas that I don't agree with. That right is being violated, and you don't give a shit. Don't even dare to tell me that you respect my rights or are willing to die for them when you don't even acknowledge them. Just be honest and tell me that you don't think my rights matter because I'm part of the most oppressed minority in existence.

Oh, crap. I didn't realize I was dealing with an "oppressed minority." Logic and reason tend to go right out the window in those cases. Do you wear a t-shirt with "Atheist! And there's not a uhh...damned thing you can do about it!" in big red letters on the back? Because I think that's the only way I could tell an atheist from a non-atheist simply by looking.

Do you honestly put so much faith in the Gubmint that you view its every action as having a direct impact on your personal life? "Under God" in the Pledge robs you of your right to worship (or not) as you please? That the Senate tends to open their sessions with a prayer means that any discussion held thereafter is automatically invalid since you don't pray?

You tell me to "cope" or "move." That's akin to telling black people to deal with persecution and bigotry because the majority thinks it's OK.

Oh for the love of...are you actually equating your life as equal to those of blacks in the first half of the last century? Why, I had no idea that there were "Christians only" water fountains, or that atheists aren't allowed to vote, or that atheists have to sit at the back of the bus.

It's very easy to turn a blind eye to bigotry against a minority when you're part of the majority (white, or male, or Christians, or any combination thereof). Put yourself in my shoes. Would you appreciate it if the Pledge read "under no gods, because gods don't exist"?

Well, now. That would be endorsing a particular belief system now, wouldn't it?

I'm trying to think how my right to go to church would be affected by such a thing. Hmmmm...gee. Um...no. Wait, maybe if...nah.

Okay, how about if I decided to organize a recall election of my Representative or Senator if he voted for the bill? Surely my right to vote would be ursurped. Um...nope. I could do that, too.

Oh, I know! My right to not feel excluded or be offended would be violated! That's in Article...no, ain't in the Constitution. Silly me, that'd be in the Bill of Rights! Amendment number...crap, not there, either.

Listen, you may feel your "rights" are being violated, but in reality all that's happening is that your sensibilities are being offended a little. If you really think that the most pressing issue facing America is whether or not "under God" is in the Pledge, or somebody sets up a Nativity Scene and/or Menorah on the courthouse lawn (a building which has a copy of the Ten Commandments hanging on the wall), or the president says that he believes in God, then you have some odd priorities in life.

Me, I'm worried about another group of religious extremists whose stated goal is the destruction of America. I'm worried that I send 20+% of my paycheck to Washington every year and there is little chance that I'll see any of my "investment" when I reach 67. I'm worried that our culture has degenerated to a point where life has very little value.

So the US Government has, on occasion, placed laws on the books that endorse a Judeo-Christian belief system or values. You don't share those beliefs. Fine. You feel that your "rights" are being violated because of it. Fine. You think the only reason I serve is to protect "the Christian Majority." Fine.

Your rant about "oppressed minority," in my view, took a whole bunch of credibility out of your argument.

You, sir, are whining like a 5-year-old who was forced to sing "Itsy-Bitsy Spider" despite your severe case of arachnophobia. Until you can prove to me that your life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness is being hampered solely, soley by your own athestic views, then you're whining.

[Darth Cirrocu]

I repeat Durandals statement. you cant die for someones rights unless you aknowledge that they exist.

This is bizarre. I have been uable to find anywhere where I have stated, "[group I disagree with philosophically] have no rights!"

You think that because I'm Christian I'm incapable of truly respecting or acknowledging your rights? I thought stereotyping was a bad thing.

I am a member of the two most oppressed minorities in the world, Athiests and I am also a homosexual as you probably know already. Not only can I not hold public office in this country

SCREEEEEECH! You're gonna have to quote the statutes on that one. Not buying it. I point to Barney Frank as exhibit A.

but depending on where I go I will be imprisoned, discriminated against, stoned to death, hanged or just killed by gay bashers. Most of the things I mentioned aply to both athists and gays, but if you want a good picture of what happens to me and where...

Oh, I don't deny that evils have been visited upon those of your orientation. People who commit such acts should be locked away or executed.

If you have ever voted against an anti-discrimination bill or have ever insulted anyone because they where gay(or stood by while someone else did it) you have kicked my rights in the balls, so dont say you would die for them.

Sooooo...lemme get this straight. If I, at some point, made a gay joke then I've stomped all over your rights (and I'm still not getting how my personal beliefs or conduct shackle your lifestyle). But it's prefectly acceptable for you to denigrate Christians because you're a member of an "oppressed minority?"

Note: If you have voted for antidiscrimination laws or defended gays please diregard that statement.

Oh, well, that makes everything all right.

[Darth Cirrocu]

I repeat Durandals statement. you cant die for someones rights unless you aknowledge that they exist.

This is bizarre. I have been uable to find anywhere where I have stated, "[group I disagree with philosophically] have no rights!"

You think that because I'm Christian I'm incapable of truly respecting or acknowledging your rights? I thought stereotyping was a bad thing.

I am a member of the two most oppressed minorities in the world, Athiests and I am also a homosexual as you probably know already. Not only can I not hold public office in this country

SCREEEEEECH! You're gonna have to quote the statutes on that one. Not buying it. I point to Barney Frank as exhibit A.

but depending on where I go I will be imprisoned, discriminated against, stoned to death, hanged or just killed by gay bashers. Most of the things I mentioned aply to both athists and gays, but if you want a good picture of what happens to me and where...

Oh, I don't deny that evils have been visited upon those of your orientation. People who commit such acts should be locked away or executed.

If you have ever voted against an anti-discrimination bill or have ever insulted anyone because they where gay(or stood by while someone else did it) you have kicked my rights in the balls, so dont say you would die for them.

Sooooo...lemme get this straight. If I, at some point, made a gay joke then I've stomped all over your rights (and I'm still not getting how my personal beliefs or conduct shackle your lifestyle). But it's prefectly acceptable for you to denigrate Christians because you're a member of an "oppressed minority?"

Note: If you have voted for antidiscrimination laws or defended gays please diregard that statement.

Oh, well, that makes everything all right.

[Alyrium Denryle]

Alright then I retract my statement and apologize

No hard feelings I hope

I was having one of my overpassionate days yesterday, it happens sometimes

However here are the statutes you wantedhttp://www.capitol.state.tx.us/txconst/ ... 00400.html

[Alyrium Denryle]

But yeah I am under the yolk of a conditioned response right now that Iam trying to break.

I lived with a nutcase southern babtists(hates EVERYONE that isnt white, straight, male, and southern babtist at least in this case) unfortunatly I did learn to equate christianity with discrimination and hatred, and I am sorry for the hasty generalization. So my "christian upbringing" was not as pleasant or tolerant as yours

Just thought you would like to know where I am coming from

[Durandal]

I guess from my point of view evil is what scares me the most. I could care less if somebody desires to kill me because I'm white, Christian, American, blue-eyed, or I wear glasses. I'm dead just the same.

So, you're completely unconcerned with the fact that others could suffer? Only yourself? More evidence of your tunnel vision.

Naturally, evil will never be completely eradicated from the world. An atheist has the same capacity for evil as a Christian, Muslim, agnostic, or Wiccan. In my case, I'm thinking that my strong, Christian upbringing by my parents has instilled in me values that make me going out and murdering a bunch of people, or organizing a cult to do so, a very remote possibility. That strong upbringing also enabled me to tell the difference between teachings that are according to God's Word and wacko nutjobs who are using God's Word for their own ends. Like you, I have little tolerance for the latter, probably moreso because I see them as corrupting and perverting my beliefs.

They may be perverting your beliefs, but your beliefs pervert Scripture. Fundamentalists are doing nothing more than following the Bible's teachings.

It's not that they are using the Bible for their own ends. It's that the Bible was created for that purpose. It was written by a bunch of racist bigots who wanted to control a gullible, ignorant populace. There's no perversion of the teachings involved when fundamentalists merely mirror the beliefs of the ancient Israelites or Christian Inquisitors and Crusaders.

List those freedoms you've been denied again? What rights have been violated?

In Texas, it is illegal to run for office unless you profess a belief in God. "Under God" in the Pledge constitutes a religious endorsement, and casts any who don't believe in God as second-class citizens. Religious schools are now eligible to receive tax money in the form of vouchers, which means that my tax dollars, as an atheist, are supporting religious indoctrination camps.

There's plenty wrong with the US Gubmint. Trust me. However, none of those problems can trace their causes back to "an endorsement of Judeo-Christian beliefs."

Then why are gambling and prostitution illegal in many states? Why is pornography strictly regulated? Why is "under God" in the Pledge, even though the people that wanted it there are Christians? Why is the default oath in court an oath taken before God? Why is "In God We Trust" on our money? Why was George W. Bush allowed to dedicate his presidency to Jesus Christ, effectively using his office to endorse Christian beliefs?

Don't you get it? This is oppression! It's not violent, but it's oppression nonetheless. How would you feel if you were in my shoes, and coins had "God's don't exist" on them? Or if presidents dedicated their offices to Satan, Allah or Baal, and made all their decisions based on those beliefs?

The governmental neutrality on religious matters exists so that all citizens can be considered equal in the eyes of the State. Under current laws, I am considered inferior because I don't agree with the government's religious beliefs.

If you say so. <shrug> I'm still not seeing how your right to be an atheist is being taken away. Maybe you feel excluded or uncomfortable in certain situations, but your rights are still intact.

The government is effectively saying that it doesn't approve of my beliefs. That's passing judgment on religious beliefs, which is something that the government is not allowed to do.

Wow. You have quite an insight into a whole group of people that I'm wagering you don't associate with on a regular basis.

That's a wager that you'll lose sorely. I was in Catholic school for eight years, and I heard more than my share of holier-than-thou, bigoted Christian bullshit.

And you know that the only people who were appeased were Christians? I think the term "constituents" would be more accurate.

There is no reason to outlaw prostitution or owning a vibrator that doesn't come from the Christian, Jewish or Muslim religion. This is a secular nation.

You're starting to delve into Pink Elephant territory. "Oh no, the big bad Christians are all out to get me! All those laws are only passed because Christians want them to be! They don't want me to be able to be an atheist!"

And I'm absolutely correct. You don't notice it because you're part of the majority. Christians have subverted this country, and the evidence is all around us, especially with the current administration. They pay lip service to the establishment clause, but they don't really know what it means.

Again, if you say so. I think the people I serve with would disagree. But the again, several of them are Christians. I guess deep down we're all hoping Ashcroft's Secret Plan to plant a big ol' cross on top of the Capitol Rotunda bears fruit real soon thanks to all of our hard work.

It already has. He holds prayer meetings in his office during his work hours. That is illegal, and it is an example of the government endorsing Christianity. He also covered up the breasts of a statue with a cloth for the sole purpose that his religious beliefs told him that it was indecent.

Oh, crap. I didn't realize I was dealing with an "oppressed minority."

Of course not. You're too busy in your own little, Christian world.

Do you honestly put so much faith in the Gubmint that you view its every action as having a direct impact on your personal life? "Under God" in the Pledge robs you of your right to worship (or not) as you please? That the Senate tends to open their sessions with a prayer means that any discussion held thereafter is automatically invalid since you don't pray?

Yes. The government isn't following its own rules. Those rules were enacted to keep people like me on equal standing with everyone else in the country under the eyes of the State.

Do you need a first-grader's version of the Constitution or something? Don't you realize why the establishment clause was even written? The government is strictly forbidden from even commenting on the subject of religion, and that means that no government workers can use their office to endorse any religious beliefs. That means that Congress can't hold prayer vigils, the president can't hold an annual Easter Egg hunt and the Senate can't open its sessions with prayers. Sorry to disappoint you, but that's the way it's supposed to be.

Oh for the love of...are you actually equating your life as equal to those of blacks in the first half of the last century?

Not necessarily in magnitude, but in principle, yes.

Why, I had no idea that there were "Christians only" water fountains, or that atheists aren't allowed to vote, or that atheists have to sit at the back of the bus.

In Texas, atheists aren't allowed to hold public office.

Well, now. That would be endorsing a particular belief system now, wouldn't it?

Yes, it would. "Under God" endorses the exact opposite, and thus it is illegal.

I'm trying to think how my right to go to church would be affected by such a thing. Hmmmm...gee. Um...no. Wait, maybe if...nah.

So, it wouldn't bother you in the slightest if the government told you that your religious beliefs were completely wrong? You're full of shit.

Oh, I know! My right to not feel excluded or be offended would be violated! That's in Article...no, ain't in the Constitution. Silly me, that'd be in the Bill of Rights! Amendment number...crap, not there, either.

That would be the Bill of Rights. The establishment clause was written expressly so that no religious beliefs would be favored by the government. If the government favors religious beliefs, then all those who don't hold those beliefs are effectively seen as inferiors or second class citizens in the eyes of the State.

Listen, you may feel your "rights" are being violated, but in reality all that's happening is that your sensibilities are being offended a little. If you really think that the most pressing issue facing America is whether or not "under God" is in the Pledge, or somebody sets up a Nativity Scene and/or Menorah on the courthouse lawn (a building which has a copy of the Ten Commandments hanging on the wall), or the president says that he believes in God, then you have some odd priorities in life.

The establishment clause probably one of the most radical moves by any government in history. If you don't think following it strictly is important or that it itself isn't important, then maybe you should try empathizing with people who aren't in your majority religious clique.

Me, I'm worried about another group of religious extremists whose stated goal is the destruction of America. I'm worried that I send 20+% of my paycheck to Washington every year and there is little chance that I'll see any of my "investment" when I reach 67. I'm worried that our culture has degenerated to a point where life has very little value.

Fine, worry about what you wish. I personally couldn't give a shit about whether or not American "culture" has value or not.

So the US Government has, on occasion, placed laws on the books that endorse a Judeo-Christian belief system or values. You don't share those beliefs. Fine. You feel that your "rights" are being violated because of it. Fine. You think the only reason I serve is to protect "the Christian Majority." Fine.

Yes, fine, until I break one of those laws that only exists to appease Christians. Then I get penalized by the State because of your religion.

Your rant about "oppressed minority," in my view, took a whole bunch of credibility out of your argument.

Which goes to show that you can't see beyond your tunnel vision world.

You, sir, are whining like a 5-year-old who was forced to sing "Itsy-Bitsy Spider" despite your severe case of arachnophobia. Until you can prove to me that your life, liberty, or pursuit of happiness is being hampered solely, soley by your own athestic views, then you're whining.

You on the other hand, are a run-of-the-mill, unthinking Christian bigot completely devoid of any sympathy for minorities who aren't violently beaten in the streets. I'd love to hear you if the government made sure to tell you, on a regular basis, that your beliefs were wrong.

The question is not whether my beliefs hamper my rights. It's whether other people's do. I'm an atheist. Let's say that I want to go out and get a hooker because my beliefs have absolutely no problem with it. I'm not hurting anyone by paying someone to have sex with me. Yet, if I'm caught, I face stiff penalties. My right to get a hooker can be considered a part of my right to pursuit of happiness. Your beliefs are infringing my rights.

Keep your religion to yourself.

[Darth Wong]

I guess from my point of view evil is what scares me the most. I could care less if somebody desires to kill me because I'm white, Christian, American, blue-eyed, or I wear glasses. I'm dead just the same.

An evil person who's not afraid to die is much scarier than an evil person who is afraid to die. Those who believe in an afterlife paradise with absolute conviction do not fear death.

Naturally, evil will never be completely eradicated from the world. An atheist has the same capacity for evil as a Christian, Muslim, agnostic, or Wiccan.

Yeah, but at least he doesn't worship any mass murderers.

List those freedoms you've been denied again? What rights have been violated?

You could have asked that same question of a black person in 1955. You could have proudly informed him that he was free to use the bus, drink from a water fountain, and apply for a job. Would that mean that there was no problem for black people in 1955? You seem to be implying that atheists' rights are not being suppressed. This is simply not true:

• Try and run for public office in America as an avowed atheist and see whether you have a chance of being elected (especially in states such as Texas, in which atheists are legally barred from holding public office; see the Texas State Constitution's prerequisite of "belief in a supreme being").
• Try and purchase a sex toy in Georgia, or some of the other states that have outlawed them. Can't? Guess what: possession of such items is a crime punishable by fines and imprisonment in those states.
• Try to fuck your girlfriend up the ass. Guess what: you just broke the law in a dozen states.
• Try to buy beer on a Sunday, and watch as people tell you that you can't because of somebody else's religious customs.
• Try to watch or purchase pornography, which is heavily censored in many regions of North America, and which still faces heavy regulatory pressure wherever it is produced or sold.
• Try and withold the portion of your taxes that is used for "faith-based charities", on the premise that you don't want to be forced to give your money to religious groups whose beliefs you don't share.
• Try to hire a prostitute, only to be thrown in prison for violating Biblical "morality" codes which prohibit victimless crimes such as prostitution.
• Ask a woman to try to get artificial insemination or an abortion if she happens to live in one of the many areas with a Catholic hospital.
• Try to perform scientific research on cloning or genetic engineering. Whoops! George Bush put strict limits on what you can and can't research! Too bad your research ran afoul of the religious beliefs of the intolerant majority.
• Try to teach your children to be atheist, only to have the schools make them pledge allegiance to one nation under God (at least that one was temporarily fixed, although the government is trying its damndest to bring it back).
• Try to use foul language on broadcast radio, only to have the FTC pull you off the air for thought crime.
• Try to go on broadcast radio and declare that any religious group is utterly lacking in morals or values, and watch as the FTC gets on your case (as they've been on Howard Stern's case for years). Now say that about atheists, just as countless Christian talk-show hosts do every week. Watch as the FTC does ... nothing.
• Try to teach biology in America, and depending on where you live, watch as state governments and school boards force creationist-tainted textbooks down your throat, force you to lie and say that there's still scientific controversy over evolution vs creation, or worse yet, force you to present "alternate theories".

Atheists' rights are being violated, but you have obviously done your damndest not to see that. The majority always mocks the complaints of the minority. Whites did it to blacks, and Christians do it to atheists. The only convenient thing about being an atheist is that it's not visible, so people can't point you out on the street. If they could, it would be even worse.

[Alyrium Denryle]

My rights to life are oppressed by your and other religions every single day. click herhttp://www.worldpolicy.org/americas/sex ... s-gay.html
to see where i will be stoned in the streets, fined or imprisoned for practicing my sexual orientation.

Hell even in the states/ countries where I dont have to worry about legal issues I still have to deal with homophobic bigots everytime I step out my door.

Just the other day I was being yelled at by High school students because I am openly gay. I get kicked in the halls, shoved into lockers and pushed to the ground, all by people who practice christianity.


Iam not saying that you commit such acts, but people who follow your religion do and they are fully supported by scripture in doing so.(at least with the interpretations they use)

I have never had a problem with jews however, even orthodox jews as a group are more accepting of me than christians(hell a good portion of my friends are jews but Iam getting off track)

[Darth Wong]

Speaking of different interpretations of Scripture, I always get a kick out of apologists who insist that we recognize the good parts of Scripture rather than focusing on the bad parts. Why should we? Good deeds or words do not erase acts of unspeakable evil. Is the utterance of a line like "do unto others" supposed to erase little trivialities like, oh, say, wiping out the entire population of the world in the Great Flood, ie- the greatest act of global genocide in history? Is that line supposed to outweigh all of the horrific rules in Exodus and Leviticus, which explicitly order God's followers to stone gays to death?

[Alyrium Denryle]

Well do unto others i guess*puts on steel toed boots and pockets brass knuckles* I think I will go beat a few homophobes to death, after all Bible says I can.

Or to word things differently

It seems they want to get the shit kicked out of them, who I am i to say no to children.

[Mr Bean]

Do as I say not as I do I remeber that classic order when dealing with my parents

[Durandal]

No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State; nor shall any one be excluded from holding office on account of his religious sentiments, provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.

Everyone keep in mind that the president of the United States is from this state.

No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office, or public trust, in this State

Versus...

provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.

Doesn't that count as a religious test?

Oh well, I guess I could run and say that my Supreme Being is myself. I wonder how they'd react to that.

[Martin Blank]

[*]Ask a woman to try to get artificial insemination or an abortion if she happens to live in one of the many areas with a Catholic hospital.

While you make a number of good points, I can't side with you on this one. There should be no requirement that a private hospital support a procedure with which they don't agree, even if it is seen as a burden on local patients. It's a rare place that doesn't have a non-Catholic hospital within a reasonable driving distance, and many fertility specialists set up in cities away from rural areas simply because of demand. Forcing a hospital to support a procedure like that is getting too much into private business. Even those owned and run by the Church should get hands-off treatment.

[Solid Snake]

See why i want religion completely gone? I used to be a catholic, and i sat in church every other sunday listening how i'm going to hell, and that turned me into what i am today. I usually have religious debates with creationist kids, either on evolution, or morality. I made a comment once about how God sounds like an inhumane asshole, i thought the air got sucked out of the room from everyone gasping.. Hey! Fuck you all!

[His Divine Shadow]

provided he acknowledge the existence of a Supreme Being.

I would fit that, because I recognize myself as a supreme being

[Eleas]

"Try to hire a prostitute, only to be thrown in prison for violating Biblical "morality" codes which prohibit victimless crimes such as prostitution."

It can be argued that prostitution is victimless, but that's a specious argument at best. One only has to look at the social standing of prostitutes and the sad condition of their lives to realize that the majority of them are victimized, drug-abusing wrecks. Just as communism worked for a few in Soviet, prostitution works for a few prostitutes. The rest, just like in Soviet, are left to suffer. Is contributing to that really moral?

[His Divine Shadow]

It would be best to accept prostitution and make it a real bussiness, enforcing actual standards and such, prefferably, by licensing of some sort.

[Eleas]

It would be best to accept prostitution and make it a real bussiness, enforcing actual standards and such, prefferably, by licensing of some sort.

Perhaps, but it will never be a real business. We're a lot closer to eradicating rape than we are to accepting prostitution. Still, in our country, around 2000 cases of female rape are reported anually. Given how few people actually report this, the actual number is certainly many times greater.

[Alyrium Denryle]

In Las Vegas prostitution is legal.

Those that work in a licensed brothel are generaly very"productive" people and not addicted to a substance. Those that work the streets are quite often drug abusing and wouldnt pass the strict drug and disease testing required by vegas laws anyway.

[Eleas]

In Las Vegas prostitution is legal.

Those that work in a licensed brothel are generaly very"productive" people and not addicted to a substance. Those that work the streets are quite often drug abusing and wouldnt pass the strict drug and disease testing required by vegas laws anyway.

Ok, good. But (assuming you had one) would you let your daughter work as one?

I'm not trying to go old fashioned on you, but I do not think prostitution will ever be just another profession in the US.

[Darth Wong]

Ok, good. But (assuming you had one) would you let your daughter work as one?

Of course not, but I wouldn't want my daughter (if I had one) to become a stripper either, and that's perfectly legal. I also wouldn't want my daughter to marry an asshole, but that's perfectly legal too.

[Eleas]

Of course not, but I wouldn't want my daughter (if I had one) to become a stripper either, and that's perfectly legal.

Not here, which is part of my point. However, I realize I may have begun painting myself into a corner. Arguing that prostitution should be illegal because people don't like prostitutes is a bit of a stretch.

Anyway, my real point is that I don't believe it's possible for prostitutes to be treated fairly in a society that holds them in such contempt. And then, they would be back to square one, except they would lose even more money, this time to taxation.

[Darth Cirrocu]

Alright then I retract my statement and apologize

No hard feelings I hope

I was having one of my overpassionate days yesterday, it happens sometimes

However here are the statutes you wantedhttp://www.capitol.state.tx.us/txconst/ ... 00400.html

Thanks. I can honestly say I had no idea that such a statute existed.

Yes, that is blatantly unconstitutional and it should be challenged. Give the ACLU a call (no, seriously).

[Darth Cirrocu]

So, you're completely unconcerned with the fact that others could suffer? Only yourself? More evidence of your tunnel vision.

Yeah, I'm only concerned with me, myself, and I. Whatever happens to family, friends, or complete strangers is of no concern to me because I'm an evil, selfish, hypocritical, bigoted bastard with tunnel vision. Looking out for numero uno, that's me.

The governmental neutrality on religious matters exists so that all citizens can be considered equal in the eyes of the State. Under current laws, I am considered inferior because I don't agree with the government's religious beliefs.
.....
There is no reason to outlaw prostitution or owning a vibrator that doesn't come from the Christian, Jewish or Muslim religion. This is a secular nation.

If the only examples of "oppression" you can come up with are that you can't gamble on a Sunday morning with a beer in your hand, go buy a dildo, and then rent a hooker and use it on her, well, I'm sorry that your pursuit of happiness is being oppressed. If that's what it takes to make you truly happy, then I'm afraid that there's not a lot I can do to help you.

A HOOKER AND DILDO IN EVERY POT!

It already has. He holds prayer meetings in his office during his work hours. That is illegal, and it is an example of the government endorsing Christianity. He also covered up the breasts of a statue with a cloth for the sole purpose that his religious beliefs told him that it was indecent.

Um, the prayer meetings are only illegal if he forces people to attend. It would also become illegal if someone said, "Oh, you can only hold a Christian prayer meeting. You Muslims (or whatever denomination) are going to have to go somewhere else." And if they're being done on lunch hour, then so what? Besides, you're saying that because someone holds public office they're not allowed to practice their religion? Come on.

Do you need a first-grader's version of the Constitution or something? Don't you realize why the establishment clause was even written? The government is strictly forbidden from even commenting on the subject of religion, and that means that no government workers can use their office to endorse any religious beliefs. That means that Congress can't hold prayer vigils, the president can't hold an annual Easter Egg hunt and the Senate can't open its sessions with prayers. Sorry to disappoint you, but that's the way it's supposed to be.

Crap. That means we're going to have to eighty-six Christmas, Thanksgiving, Easter (not a Federal holiday anyway), Valentine's Day (a Saint), Martin Luther King Jr. Day (a REVEREND), Memorial Day, Flag Day, and Columbus Day. Guess we can keep Labor Day. But other than that, I think we've safely eliminated all the holidays with any kind of religious connections. Just think of all the extra work the government will be able to get done without all those nasty days off!

Fine, worry about what you wish. I personally couldn't give a shit about whether or not American "culture" has value or not.

You should. Whenever a culture begins to believe that one class of people is "inferior" to another, then murder of that "lower" class isn't seen as such a bad thing. Ask people of a certain belief system who lived in Europe a few decades back. THAT is what you should be worried about.

Yes, fine, until I break one of those laws that only exists to appease Christians. Then I get penalized by the State because of your religion.

Hey, I'm borderline libertarian on a lot of that stuff. You want to solicit the services of a prostitute and get high, go for it. Just don't bother me with it or allow the effects to spill over into society at large. What you do in your own home is your business.

I won't do it, but that's me. And yes, the reasons I won't do such things are based largely on my religious beliefs.

Yes, many of the laws currently on the books concerning those subjects are the result of the widely-held religious views of the community majority back when the laws were passed. In my home state, there are still Blue Book laws in effect that say you can't buy liquor before noon on Sundays. People follow the law and just kinda shake their heads. It's obviously not that big a deal, because nobody's campaigned to have the law repealed.

I guess what I'm asking is, do you bump your head stumbling around in the darkness like that? You're obviously out of matches...

You on the other hand, are a run-of-the-mill, unthinking Christian bigot completely devoid of any sympathy for minorities who aren't violently beaten in the streets. I'd love to hear you if the government made sure to tell you, on a regular basis, that your beliefs were wrong.

The question is not whether my beliefs hamper my rights. It's whether other people's do. I'm an atheist. Let's say that I want to go out and get a hooker because my beliefs have absolutely no problem with it. I'm not hurting anyone by paying someone to have sex with me. Yet, if I'm caught, I face stiff penalties. My right to get a hooker can be considered a part of my right to pursuit of happiness. Your beliefs are infringing my rights.

Keep your religion to yourself.

Oooookaaaaayyyyyy.

Now, answer me this: could the government ever actually be totally neutral towards religion? Would there not inevitably be some laws on the books that would appear to favor one system of beliefs over another?

[Darth Cirrocu]

You could have asked that same question of a black person in 1955. You could have proudly informed him that he was free to use the bus, drink from a water fountain, and apply for a job. Would that mean that there was no problem for black people in 1955? You seem to be implying that atheists' rights are not being suppressed. This is simply not true:

• Try and run for public office in America as an avowed atheist and see whether you have a chance of being elected (especially in states such as Texas, in which atheists are legally barred from holding public office; see the Texas State Constitution's prerequisite of "belief in a supreme being").

I fully agree that the Texas statute is unconstitutional and should be challenged by the ACLU or whoever sees fit to do so.

Now, if an atheist can't get the populace to vote for him/her, then there's not a lot that can be done. The government does not tell people how to vote, nor could it. If the majority of people say, "Well, I'd vote for him, but he's an atheist and I don't agree with that," then he's out of luck. To change that would require a massive cultural change that would be out of the purview of the government.

It would be your job to convince the American people that your atheistic views are fair, balanced, and would hold the rights of all people in the highest esteem, regarldess of race, creed, or sex.

'Course, you'd have to tone down the "ignorant, hypocritial, bigoted Christians" routine in order to do that.

• Try and purchase a sex toy in Georgia, or some of the other states that have outlawed them. Can't? Guess what: possession of such items is a crime punishable by fines and imprisonment in those states.
• Try to fuck your girlfriend up the ass. Guess what: you just broke the law in a dozen states.
• Try to buy beer on a Sunday, and watch as people tell you that you can't because of somebody else's religious customs.
• Try to watch or purchase pornography, which is heavily censored in many regions of North America, and which still faces heavy regulatory pressure wherever it is produced or sold.

The best you can come up with is booze and sex? Sheesh.

• Try and withold the portion of your taxes that is used for "faith-based charities", on the premise that you don't want to be forced to give your money to religious groups whose beliefs you don't share.

Fair enough. But that can apply to a whole lot of things on both sides of the aisle.

Atheists' rights are being violated, but you have obviously done your damndest not to see that. The majority always mocks the complaints of the minority. Whites did it to blacks, and Christians do it to atheists. The only convenient thing about being an atheist is that it's not visible, so people can't point you out on the street. If they could, it would be even worse.

So what you're advocating is minority rule? No law can be passed if it offends even one person? I'm thinking that would approach anarchy pretty quickly.