40K what if.

[Darksider]

I've been reading a lot of 40k books lately, the newest Ultramarines novel (well, the newest one in the U.S. Damned brits), Heroes of the Space Marines, and the first book in the Salamanders trilogy. That's gotten me thinking about a couple of 40k RARs.

RAR #1: The Emperor goes apeshit upon witnessing Horus kill Sanquinus. He unloads on Horus with everything he's got and turns him into a bloody stain on the wall. No Golden Throne is necessary fast forward ten thousand years to M41. What does the galaxy look like? What are the Imperium's relations with Aliens who don't want to annihilate them outright such as the Eldar and the Tau?

RAR #2: Shortly before Uriel Ventris arrives on Pavonis, A great amount of Warp energy is released in the emperor's throne room. The Custodes rush in to find the Emperor waiting for them, completely healed of his injuries. What happens? How will this affect the Imperium's relations with non-completely hostile powers like the Eldar, Tau, ETC?

EDIT: Also, What the fuck are the squats?

[Bedlam]

Also, What the fuck are the squats?

The squats are / were the 40K equivilent of dwarves a stable human mutation which had settled a number of worlds near the galactic core during the dark age of technology. During the age of strife they had traided with both Orks and Eldar when the Orks turned on them the Eldar refused to help (usual fantasy Dwarves hate both Orcs and Elves).

They were eventually reintegrated into the Imperial as a sort of protectorate / ally. They had a higher than average level of technology and did not have the usual imperium mystacism around technology. When they were in the game they tended to have quite heavy infantry with lots of heavy weapons and also a large number of bikes and trikes (they had a sort of biker gang look). Their ownly psykers were very old members of their race who were considered living ancestors.

They existed in the game for the first 2 editions and then just disapeared, I think the in game idea way that more of them were eaten by a Tyranid splinter fleet with the survivors purged by the imperium. I have heard that Games Workshop is rather fanatical about them never having existed now going as far as to ban people from their web site which talk about them (although that might be a urban myth). There are rumours that they have re surfaced as a race called the Demi urge who apparently use lots of drones and may have links to the Tau.

[Samuel]

What are the Imperium's relations with Aliens who don't want to annihilate them outright such as the Eldar and the Tau?
...
How will this affect the Imperium's relations with non-completely hostile powers like the Eldar, Tau, ETC?

The Imperium continues attempting to purge the xenos? There are no non-hostile powers in 40K- the Tau are attempting to expand into Imperial Space (which occasionally means genociding the populations of human worlds) and the Eldar... I'll let someone else who knows more explain why the Imperium does not consider them "non-hostile".

Having an active Emperor prevents things like the Age of Apostacy but I can't make any other judgements on how much it benefits the Imperium.

[white_rabbit]

How will this affect the Imperium's relations with non-completely hostile powers like the Eldar, Tau, ETC?

The Eldar I could buy as "non-completely hostile", but the Tau?

The Tau started off their interaction with the Imperium on a polity to polity scale, with a sector wide invasion.

The Damocles crusade was a response, not Imperial hostility.

RAR #1: The Emperor goes apeshit upon witnessing Horus kill Sanquinus. He unloads on Horus with everything he's got and turns him into a bloody stain on the wall. No Golden Throne is necessary fast forward ten thousand years to M41. What does the galaxy look like? What are the Imperium's relations with Aliens who don't want to annihilate them outright such as the Eldar and the Tau?

I suppose the Imperium might look like the first glimmerings of established human civilisation during the Great Crusade. Instead of the horrific blackships, a more organised and humane management process for psykers.

The Custodes rush in to find the Emperor waiting for them, completely healed of his injuries. What happens? How will this affect the Imperium's relations with non-completely hostile powers like the Eldar, Tau, ETC?

God knows, the Imperium of Man is not the Imperium the Emperor planned, not by a long shot. He is fairly practical though, so it might not be catastrophic.

[weemadando]

With the Emperor alive and healed it might kick the Eldar into gear. Whether that gear is a "get in line with the humans now that the Star Child scenario is avoided" or it puts them offside because with that much Warp Energy, this might just be the fucking Star Child scenario and they madly rush to try and exterminate the humans who are following him.

[dragon]

I've been reading a lot of 40k books lately, the newest Ultramarines novel (well, the newest one in the U.S. Damned brits), Heroes of the Space Marines, and the first book in the Salamanders trilogy. That's gotten me thinking about a couple of 40k RARs.

RAR #1: The Emperor goes apeshit upon witnessing Horus kill Sanquinus. He unloads on Horus with everything he's got and turns him into a bloody stain on the wall. No Golden Throne is necessary fast forward ten thousand years to M41. What does the galaxy look like? What are the Imperium's relations with Aliens who don't want to annihilate them outright such as the Eldar and the Tau?

crap I asked this awhile back and don't remember what the consensus was. But apparently in one of the books someone mentions what happens if the Emperor isn't stopped. I'll see if I can find it.

[andrewgpaul]

The Emperor's big plan, the thing that made him hand over day-to-day running of his empire to the bureaucrats, was his attempt to establish human links to the Eldar Webway. I don't see the Eldar responding favourably to that, if he carries on.

[Darksider]

The Damocles crusade was a response, not Imperial hostility.

According to the Lexicanum The Damocles Crusade was sent in response to fringe worlds establishing a trading relationship with the Tau, not an outright invasion.

[Ford Prefect]

RAR #2: Shortly before Uriel Ventris arrives on Pavonis, A great amount of Warp energy is released in the emperor's throne room. The Custodes rush in to find the Emperor waiting for them, completely healed of his injuries. What happens? How will this affect the Imperium's relations with non-completely hostile powers like the Eldar, Tau, ETC?

There is really no possible quick answer to this. This is epoch-making for the Imperium. You could write a novel about pretty every discrete political entity in the Imperium bassed on this premise. You could write a book about the first day of his awakening just amongst the upper echelons of the Palace.

[Serafina]

If your read the Horus Heresy novels, you know that the Emperor imagined an completly differnent Imperium.#

So, if he does not get suspended in the Golden Throne, we will get the 40K-Empire with SCIENCE!

If he awakens now, he will find that his empire became the exact opposite of what he imagined.
Now, since everyone is revering him, i can not imagine that there will be large-scale opposition to his rule even if he demolishes the old structures.
But he will hardly be able to do so without causing a lot of damage - he propably will cut down the power of the ecclesiarchy, which means that he will demolish the most powerfull structure in the empire.

Now, it IS possible that he changed his mind about faith and superstition in his 10000 years of "sleep".
After all, we know that he was not totally asleep, and possibly interacted with the galaxy.

[Setzer]

It's also possible that the Imperium begins another civil war when the word gets out that the Emperor has returned and some don't believe it.

[white_rabbit]

According to the Lexicanum The Damocles Crusade was sent in response to fringe worlds establishing a trading relationship with the Tau, not an outright invasion.

Firstly, Lexicanum is bloody awful.

Secondly, if by trading relationship you mean, ships in orbit round every world, and secret arms deals with Imperial Commanders beforehand, then yeah, call it that.

[Darksider]

According to the Lexicanum The Damocles Crusade was sent in response to fringe worlds establishing a trading relationship with the Tau, not an outright invasion.

Firstly, Lexicanum is bloody awful.

Secondly, if by trading relationship you mean, ships in orbit round every world, and secret arms deals with Imperial Commanders beforehand, then yeah, call it that.

So it wasn't an outright invasion, but they were trying to subvert imperial authority?

[Cykeisme]

As for the initial Tau response to coming into contact with outlying Imperial worlds, "outright invasion" might be a bit strong a term.. perhaps "annexation"? Nevertheless, it was aggressive expansionism, and Imperial worlds within the Tau expansion Sphere that refused to deal with the Tau were threatened with force.

Apparently the Imperium is too tied up to neutralize the Tau threat, but it doesn't really make sense; a task force even half the size as the one sent on the Sabbat Worlds Crusade would be overkill for committing xenocide on the Tau Empire.
Or was there something about distance/logistics being an additional factor?

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

As for the initial Tau response to coming into contact with outlying Imperial worlds, "outright invasion" might be a bit strong a term.. perhaps "annexation"? Nevertheless, it was aggressive expansionism, and Imperial worlds within the Tau expansion Sphere that refused to deal with the Tau were threatened with force.

Apparently the Imperium is too tied up to neutralize the Tau threat, but it doesn't really make sense; a task force even half the size as the one sent on the Sabbat Worlds Crusade would be overkill for committing xenocide on the Tau Empire.
Or was there something about distance/logistics being an additional factor?

Maybe the Imperium would rather waste ships against the Hive Fleet rather than play silly games with the Tau Empire.

Or the Imperium would rather let the Tyranids do the job for them.

Or rather Games Workshop want to sucker down those juveniles out there...

[Cykeisme]

Well, from a flavour perspective, the Tau are rather interesting.. an anti-utopian Empire that disguises its rot with benevolence and goodness. Each of the 40k races bring a different sort of darkness to the table.
In a sense it's a good thing GW won't allow them to get wiped out.


As for the OP..
In the Inquisitor rulebooks, the fluff surrounding the birth of the Inquisition indicates that there were very real concerns about civil war being reignited if the Emperor were to rise from the Golden Throne, even if he were to reawaken mere years after Horus' defeat.
A reawakening ten thousand years later would almost certainly cause massive gulfs between believers and non-believers that might destabilize the Imperium enough for external threats to totally fuck shit up.
If the Emperor insists on secularity rather than mindless worship, there would no doubt be opposition from some high ranking Ecclesiarchy officials deliberately clinging on to power..

The Emperor having survived the Horus duel unscathed, however.. that'd be something different. I don't think it's naive wide-eyed propaganda to believe that the Emperor's Imperium would be a golden age for mankind, with an excellent quality of life for every man, woman and child.
It's hard to say whether the Emperor's policies for dealing with aliens would be as harsh as the actual Imperium, though. There might be references to the Emperor's view toward benign xenos in the Horus Heresy novels that I haven't yet read.

[Darksider]

Another question that popped into my head.

Does anyone in the 40K universe actually go on the offensive against the Orks? I know the Rogue Tau under commander Farsight have fought orks before, but does the imperium actually try to conquer and secure ork worlds for resources, slaves, living space, etc?

It seems like every time I read about the Orks, it's them attacking one of the other factions. No one ever tries to return the favor. I know there are too damn many orks for any one faction to wipe them all out, but surely there are a few ork empires that the imperium could roll over.

Does anyone just go an say "ok, here are these five ork held systems, and we're going to smash the greenskins defenses and take them for the emperor?"

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

The Biel Tan Craftworld Eldar are known to have an extreme hate for Orcs, and will do their best to exterminate them when the opportunity arises.

[starfury]

Well, from a flavour perspective, the Tau are rather interesting.. an anti-utopian Empire that disguises its rot with benevolence and goodness. Each of the 40k races bring a different sort of darkness to the table.
In a sense it's a good thing GW won't allow them to get wiped out.

The Tau does seem to have surface benevolence, but only clearly brought forth by their material inferority to the imperium then as any actual moral qualms, they asked others to join, etc because it was less costly to that way to gain control then to outright exterminate for them, I constantly get the impression that if they Tau would be allowed to grow to anywhere near the imperium's size, they would jettison their surface benevolence in a instant and resort to the same methods the Imperium uses, only without the honesty to admit it was rather despotic empire. They sneer at the imperium behavior yet Privately would love to use so methods themselves with only their lack relative power forcing them to maintain a surface niceness.

[Connor MacLeod]

As for the initial Tau response to coming into contact with outlying Imperial worlds, "outright invasion" might be a bit strong a term.. perhaps "annexation"? Nevertheless, it was aggressive expansionism, and Imperial worlds within the Tau expansion Sphere that refused to deal with the Tau were threatened with force.

The Tau more often than not manipulate people via trade and diplomacy - at least as a prelude to actual warfare. They frequently rely on diplomacy with the Imperium to mess them around at least on a limited scale (Kill Team, Medusa V, etc.)

What they did prior to the Damocles Gulf Crusade was make alot of diplomatic overtures and trade with Imperial Commanders on the edges of the Imperium. What they actually did was trade them some rigged technologies (As in they couldn't be used against hte Tau) and encouraged alot of civil war and infighting between member systems. Given Tau doctrine, I would also expect them to have threatened/bombarded some worlds that refuse to capitulate, so what WR said is right - it was an invasion.

Apparently the Imperium is too tied up to neutralize the Tau threat, but it doesn't really make sense; a task force even half the size as the one sent on the Sabbat Worlds Crusade would be overkill for committing xenocide on the Tau Empire.


Or was there something about distance/logistics being an additional factor?

The area around which the Tau reside in is apparently some sort of unknonw and bizarre warp phenomenon that hampered travel and communications (read: Deus Ex Machina) - nevermind that they are on the fringes of the galaxy where the AStronomicon is going to be weakest and most problematic. Another factor is that the Crusade took place in the Ultima Segmentum, whereas the SWC took place in PAcificus (other side of the galaxy). Ultima is many times larger than Pacificus, which means that there are bound to be more worlds and territory to cover, and much of that is going to be newer territory relatively speaking compared to Pacificus (which is right up against the edge of the Galaxy and doesnt have much more space to expand.) Add the threat of a Tyranid Hive Fleet to that (a bigger threat than the TAu could ever hope to be) and it becomes obvious pretty quick that the tau are a rather minor threat, at least for the time being.

[Serafina]

You know the saying: The Tau at least give you a chance to join them before they bomb you into oblivion.

[PainRack]

Another question that popped into my head.

Does anyone in the 40K universe actually go on the offensive against the Orks? I know the Rogue Tau under commander Farsight have fought orks before, but does the imperium actually try to conquer and secure ork worlds for resources, slaves, living space, etc?

It seems like every time I read about the Orks, it's them attacking one of the other factions. No one ever tries to return the favor. I know there are too damn many orks for any one faction to wipe them all out, but surely there are a few ork empires that the imperium could roll over.

Does anyone just go an say "ok, here are these five ork held systems, and we're going to smash the greenskins defenses and take them for the emperor?"

Damn..... Anyone remember the fluff stories where the IG DID invade Ork worlds and spend their entire lives pounding away at Feral orks?

The whole idea was to raise a population that knows how to fight and would produce good troopers.

[Wing Commander MAD]

Another question that popped into my head.

Does anyone in the 40K universe actually go on the offensive against the Orks? I know the Rogue Tau under commander Farsight have fought orks before, but does the imperium actually try to conquer and secure ork worlds for resources, slaves, living space, etc?

It seems like every time I read about the Orks, it's them attacking one of the other factions. No one ever tries to return the favor. I know there are too damn many orks for any one faction to wipe them all out, but surely there are a few ork empires that the imperium could roll over.

Does anyone just go an say "ok, here are these five ork held systems, and we're going to smash the greenskins defenses and take them for the emperor?"

I might be wrong, but aren't worlds occupied by orks permanantly infested due to thier biology (short of necron scale purging of life)? That might kinda be a major downside to taking over ork held systems. Then again PainRack makes a good point. Alternatively, could it be they're afraid of attracking other orks and potentially starting a multi system Waaah?

[Serafina]

Another question that popped into my head.

Does anyone in the 40K universe actually go on the offensive against the Orks? I know the Rogue Tau under commander Farsight have fought orks before, but does the imperium actually try to conquer and secure ork worlds for resources, slaves, living space, etc?

It seems like every time I read about the Orks, it's them attacking one of the other factions. No one ever tries to return the favor. I know there are too damn many orks for any one faction to wipe them all out, but surely there are a few ork empires that the imperium could roll over.

Does anyone just go an say "ok, here are these five ork held systems, and we're going to smash the greenskins defenses and take them for the emperor?"

I might be wrong, but aren't worlds occupied by orks permanantly infested due to thier biology (short of necron scale purging of life)? That might kinda be a major downside to taking over ork held systems. Then again PainRack makes a good point. Alternatively, could it be they're afraid of attracking other orks and potentially starting a multi system Waaah?

Well, Orks are pretty hard to purge, but it CAN be done.

There was at least one short story in the (german) White Dwarf where a world was cleansed from Orks, using bioweapons.
Of course, the result was pretty nasty - but we ARE talking about the Imperium, so the end justfies the means.

[Setzer]

It could also be the case that several worlds involved in fighting orks are technically held by the Imperium. They could be fighting feral orks that are leftovers from some long ago defeated invasion.