Vorlon Planet Killer poll

[Master of Ossus]

The Mass Drivers were used by the Dilgar during the Dilgar War against a large part of the League of Non-Aligned Worlds. Mass Drivers ARE specifically used against all forms of live on the planets, whether it be civilian, or military, it didn't matter. The tactic behind using Mass Drivers is simple, the amount of troops necessary to invade a homeworld numbers in the tens of millions, even if they're not highly trained, tens of millions of troops is still enough to hold out any invasion force that the force of B5 are capable of putting forth and transporting with the ships. So they use the Mass Drivers to thin down the amount of troops on the planet, and scatter them. In the words of Londo when he spoke to Lord Refa about invading Narn.

"Any force invading Narn would be up to its neck in blood, its own!"

Also notice, that the Mass Drivers work with collateral damage, they do not hit the surface of the planet, instead they explode in the atmosphere and cause large amounts of collateral damage from these explosions. It would make either A) The Narns, with sustained bombardment surrender due to the millions of casualties they cause, destruction of the entire economy (which is what happened) or B) Thin out troop numbers, so a full scale invasion can be attempted. Needless to say, option A is a far better option.

All of this essentially agrees with my point--that mass drivers were banned more for their inaccuracy and inability to select different targets than for their power. They offer few, if any, advantages over nuclear missiles fired from orbit. Note that the Centauri have orbit-to-ground missiles (ref. ItB), though it is not known if they can equip them with nuclear payloads.

As for the Planetkiller, its dealt with in B5Wars the capabilities of the Vorlon Planetkiller, its capable of shattering a planet up to the size of Jupiter. If Warsies can use EU as a source for the capabilities of Star Wars, why shouldn't Babylon 5 use this source which as been approved as canon by JMS himself (who also wrote that he approves it in the books himself in the foreword)?

People can use SW EU material during debates because of LFL rules on canonicity. Namely, if it is official, it is canon unless directly contradicted by the movies, scripts, novelizations, or radio plays. B5Wars has no such policy, whatsoever. B5Wars is not applicable to this debate, but the Star Wars EU is. JMS also stated that there is only one novel that is "completely" canon. He is clearly using the term differently from the way that LFL and GL use the word (or ST, for that matter). What he is essentially saying is that B5 Wars is licensed, but it is not necessarily "canon." JMS seems to believe that books or other products can be "somewhat canon." This is inconsistent with other universe's policies on canon, and inconsistent with a working definition of canon for the purposes of this debate.

[Guest]

All of this essentially agrees with my point--that mass drivers were banned more for their inaccuracy and inability to select different targets than for their power. They offer few, if any, advantages over nuclear missiles fired from orbit. Note that the Centauri have orbit-to-ground missiles (ref. ItB), though it is not known if they can equip them with nuclear payloads

In accuracy is not exactly the right word, since the very purpose of the mass drivers is to cause widespread destruction, not a surgical strike to a military target. As for offering no advantages over a nuclear bobardment - the Centauri ultimately wanted to take control of the planet, which would be a bit difficult if Narn had been an irradiated wasteland. It is also quite possible that the Narns could have countered missiles more easily than the mass drivers.

[Guest]

As for your quote, this has been dealt with in the past. The vast majority of evidence indicates clearly that the VPK could not destroy a planet, and neither could the SPK, whose results have been seen.

Well call me silly, but when we're quite plainly first a) told, and then b) shown in the series that it can destroy a planet, I tend to believe that it can do that.

Incidentally, you have also failed to explain the survivors, or the necessity of atmospheric shuttles.

The survivors need not have been on the planet at the time of it's destruction.

[Master of Ossus]

All of this essentially agrees with my point--that mass drivers were banned more for their inaccuracy and inability to select different targets than for their power. They offer few, if any, advantages over nuclear missiles fired from orbit. Note that the Centauri have orbit-to-ground missiles (ref. ItB), though it is not known if they can equip them with nuclear payloads

In accuracy is not exactly the right word, since the very purpose of the mass drivers is to cause widespread destruction, not a surgical strike to a military target. As for offering no advantages over a nuclear bobardment - the Centauri ultimately wanted to take control of the planet, which would be a bit difficult if Narn had been an irradiated wasteland. It is also quite possible that the Narns could have countered missiles more easily than the mass drivers.

You're absolutely right. The word I was looking for was precision, not accuracy (which refers to something different). Excellent point. Cheerfully withdrawn.

You are also potentially correct about the problems with irradiating Narn, but the Mass Drivers destroyed the ecology, there, anyway, so I hardly see how radiation would have been any worse. It is possible that the Narn could have countered missiles more easily, but how? They have never shown this ability in the show or the made-for-TV-movies. In fact, in ItB a Narn Dreadnaught did not even appear to do anything when fired on by Centauri missiles, except send a message to G'Kar. The Centauri were clearly in control of Narn's orbit when they began the bombardment, so there should have been no reason to specifically outfit their Primus class Battlecruisers with mass drivers unless bombardment with missiles was considerably less effective. I kind of see how your theory MIGHT be accurate, but I really don't see why it would be. I don't really know how to express this, but you are adding an additional term to the problem. The Narn have not been shown to be able to counter Centauri missiles, so I can't really accept your solution, unless you have some more evidence to present me with, of course.

[Guest]

as for that debris field.. judging by the velocities of the huge rocks, id rather think of them as huge asteroids in a belt the vorlon fleet just happen to be passing through.

Which is a bit far fetched explanation. Considering that we just saw the Vorlon fleet attack a planet before, I think it's reasonable to assume that the field of debris it's shown moving through minutes later is the remains of that planet.

As for the escape velocity thing... you can't really use that as proof for anything, since JMS has himself stated that not everything shown on screen matches reality 1 to 1. For examples, in spacebattles the ships are shown right next to each other, while in reality they would easily have the tech to fire at each other thousands or millions of miles away. However, they've been represented they way they have been to make them look interesting.

[Guest]

You're absolutely right. The word I was looking for was precision, not accuracy (which refers to something different). Excellent point. Cheerfully withdrawn.

Thank you.

You are also potentially correct about the problems with irradiating Narn, but the Mass Drivers destroyed the ecology, there, anyway, so I hardly see how radiation would have been any worse. It is possible that the Narn could have countered missiles more easily, but how? They have never shown this ability in the show or the made-for-TV-movies. In fact, in ItB a Narn Dreadnaught did not even appear to do anything when fired on by Centauri missiles, except send a message to G'Kar. The Centauri were clearly in control of Narn's orbit when they began the bombardment, so there should have been no reason to specifically outfit their Primus class Battlecruisers with mass drivers unless bombardment with missiles was considerably less effective. I kind of see how your theory MIGHT be accurate, but I really don't see why it would be. I don't really know how to express this, but you are adding an additional term to the problem. The Narn have not been shown to be able to counter Centauri missiles, so I can't really accept your solution, unless you have some more evidence to present me with, of course.

I don't have any actual prove, which is why I said "possibly." I assume, however, that a missile that has to move relatively slow first in order to make it through the atmosphere, and then to retain some control over it's flight path, could be shot down, or stopped with intercepting missiles. On the other hand, a huge rock coming down with incredible speed would me much more difficult to stop.

While you're right about the mass driver bombardment detroying the ecology of Narn as well, what it didn't do was prevent the Centauri from setting up garrisons and sending their own troops down without fear of having them die of radiation poisoning.

[Nephilim]

People can use SW EU material during debates because of LFL rules on canonicity. Namely, if it is official, it is canon unless directly contradicted by the movies, scripts, novelizations, or radio plays. B5Wars has no such policy, whatsoever. B5Wars is not applicable to this debate, but the Star Wars EU is. JMS also stated that there is only one novel that is "completely" canon. He is clearly using the term differently from the way that LFL and GL use the word (or ST, for that matter). What he is essentially saying is that B5 Wars is licensed, but it is not necessarily "canon." JMS seems to believe that books or other products can be "somewhat canon." This is inconsistent with other universe's policies on canon, and inconsistent with a working definition of canon for the purposes of this debate.

JMS is the creator of Babylon 5, and he therefore can determine what is canon in the Babylon 5 universe and what is not. In the foreword in the Rules Compendium he specifically states quote:

"When other licensees needed information on ship configurations or weapons capabilities, we referred them to the Agents of Gaming books (such as the one you are now holding in your hands). When we were in production engaged in the writing of episodes or the mapping out of sets, if i was not available to answer a specific question on a technical area covered by AoG...the people involved were directied to go to the AoG books."

"What i'm saying, in this roundabout way, is that if you want the Real Deal, if you want accuracy, CANONICAL AUTHORITY, and the best of the best when it comes to Babylon 5 licensing and gaming... you've come to the right place."

Fiona Avery, one of the producers of Babylon 5 was even involved in helping AoG. B5Wars is licensed by Warner Brothers Inc, which controls the license concerning all Babylon 5 products. If you don't see that this book should at LEAST be considered official, then i don't know what further proof i can show you.

Also, noting your statement that there is only one novel which is canon. This is false, all of the novels that have been published for B5 are based on what JMS gave the writters and read them before they were authorized.

There is also that fact about SW products, such as some of the i believe RPG books which are also considered official, which clearly contradicts the movies. One glaring example of this is the size of the Executor, among others. Yet, people continue to regard these as official sources for debating SW. But when i present to you proof (from the creator of Babylon 5 himself) you simply push it away as him saying something other, that he didn't mean 'canon' in the way that Lucas or Lucasfilms means it. Lucas has even stated that he views EU as another person's view of his own universe, that it doesn't encroach on his. Then on the other hand, JMS is still in very deep control of what he views of his baby, and has the final word on what is canon, and what is not canon in his 'universe' and is himself personally involved (or others, such as the Executive producers of the show) in the making of any other products with the name Babylon 5 on it.

[Master of Ossus]

While you're right about the mass driver bombardment detroying the ecology of Narn as well, what it didn't do was prevent the Centauri from setting up garrisons and sending their own troops down without fear of having them die of radiation poisoning.

Hmmm.... The initial velocity of the mass driver asteroids appeared to be significantly lower than the velocity of the O. to G. missiles fired in ItB. It might be more easy to target missiles, since they are active, but since the Centauri did not appear to care about accuracy, especially, I think another explanation is needed.

In addition, the Centauri seemed to care little when they used massive nuclear warheads to destroy a large island on their own homeworld. Perhaps they have some kind of nuclear weapon that does not irradiate targets (unlikely), or their people are naturally resistant to radiation, or they just did not care because they didn't care about the people of Centauri Prime. Again, I think that another explanation is needed for why mass drivers were used in violation of interstellar law when nuclear equipped missiles would have done just as well.

[Master of Ossus]

JMS is the creator of Babylon 5, and he therefore can determine what is canon in the Babylon 5 universe and what is not. In the foreword in the Rules Compendium he specifically states quote:

"When other licensees needed information on ship configurations or weapons capabilities, we referred them to the Agents of Gaming books (such as the one you are now holding in your hands). When we were in production engaged in the writing of episodes or the mapping out of sets, if i was not available to answer a specific question on a technical area covered by AoG...the people involved were directied to go to the AoG books."

"What i'm saying, in this roundabout way, is that if you want the Real Deal, if you want accuracy, CANONICAL AUTHORITY, and the best of the best when it comes to Babylon 5 licensing and gaming... you've come to the right place."

Fiona Avery, one of the producers of Babylon 5 was even involved in helping AoG. B5Wars is licensed by Warner Brothers Inc, which controls the license concerning all Babylon 5 products. If you don't see that this book should at LEAST be considered official, then i don't know what further proof i can show you.

Also, noting your statement that there is only one novel which is canon. This is false, all of the novels that have been published for B5 are based on what JMS gave the writters and read them before they were authorized.

There is also that fact about SW products, such as some of the i believe RPG books which are also considered official, which clearly contradicts the movies. One glaring example of this is the size of the Executor, among others. Yet, people continue to regard these as official sources for debating SW. But when i present to you proof (from the creator of Babylon 5 himself) you simply push it away as him saying something other, that he didn't mean 'canon' in the way that Lucas or Lucasfilms means it. Lucas has even stated that he views EU as another person's view of his own universe, that it doesn't encroach on his. Then on the other hand, JMS is still in very deep control of what he views of his baby, and has the final word on what is canon, and what is not canon in his 'universe' and is himself personally involved (or others, such as the Executive producers of the show) in the making of any other products with the name Babylon 5 on it.

JMS specifically said that only one novel was considered completely canon. Clearly he is using a different definition of what is canon and what is not. I have no idea how he comes to such a conclusion, but he appears to. Incidentally, there are other contradictions within B5 canon itself (especially on scaling issues, ie. the station's mass). Lucas did not say that he views the EU as a different universe. What he said was that the EU material that is CONTRADICTED should be seen as an alternate universe (for example, the bizarre series of comics that is coming out that has no canonical value whatsoever). Lucas is also in deep control of his universe, to the point where two completed manuscripts for novels have been rejected outright because they violated SW canon. Clearly LFL and Lucas are taking greater care to ensure that the material presented in the EU is canonical (by the LFL standard of the word). JMS, on the other hand, appears to consider canon completely differently from what we would ordinarily regard as canon. I also see that you totally disregarded my points about how the Minbari were able to defeat the Shadows, and therefore they should have a relative parity of technology. Concession accepted.

[Guest]

Hmmm.... The initial velocity of the mass driver asteroids appeared to be significantly lower than the velocity of the O. to G. missiles fired in ItB. It might be more easy to target missiles, since they are active, but since the Centauri did not appear to care about accuracy, especially, I think another explanation is needed.

Well, I already mentioned the risks of irradiating a world you're going to inhabit.

Also, it's likely that the mass drivers were a more cost effective choice as well, since I imagine that chunks of rock come cheaper than nuclear warheads.

In addition, the Centauri seemed to care little when they used massive nuclear warheads to destroy a large island on their own homeworld. Perhaps they have some kind of nuclear weapon that does not irradiate targets (unlikely), or their people are naturally resistant to radiation, or they just did not care because they didn't care about the people of Centauri Prime. Again, I think that another explanation is needed for why mass drivers were used in violation of interstellar law when nuclear equipped missiles would have done just as well.

They didn't exactly have an option. It was either the island or all of Centauri Prime would've been destroyed by the Vorlons. Or so Londo thought, anyway. And I doubt that using the mass drivers on Centauri Prime would have been a very good idea.

[Master of Ossus]

Yes, cost effectiveness is a much better reason to use mass drivers over nuclear weapons, as the ammunition appeared to just be asteroids. I am mildly surprised that they would have cost less to install on several cruisers than just bombing Narn with nukes, but it seems one of the only reasonable solutions.

You are correct, also, about Londo's not having a choice in the matter, but remember that the damage to Centauri Prime caused by his nukes was relatively insignificant, excepting the land mass directly involved in the attack.

The better explanation is cost, but it doesn't explain G'Kar's anger at being bombed with asteroids (unless it is dishonorable to be attacked by cheap weapons).

[Master of Ossus]

Nephilim: How is JMS's quote about the first completely canon B5 novel to be interpreted any differently? How else are we to explain the fact that canon novels in B5 seem to go against the series in places, and even against each other in others (for instance, what G'Kar's wife is named). I do not see how such discrepencies can be explained in any way other than to say that canon in B5 does not equal canon in SW.

[Guest]

Yes, cost effectiveness is a much better reason to use mass drivers over nuclear weapons, as the ammunition appeared to just be asteroids. I am mildly surprised that they would have cost less to install on several cruisers than just bombing Narn with nukes, but it seems one of the only reasonable solutions.

Well, I'm sticking with the radiation problem myself, it seems like one of the better reasons.

You are correct, also, about Londo's not having a choice in the matter, but remember that the damage to Centauri Prime caused by his nukes was relatively insignificant, excepting the land mass directly involved in the attack.

Yes, which actually goes against your own argument, that nuking the island proves that the Centauri wouldn't mind randomly irradiating their habitat.

The better explanation is cost, but it doesn't explain G'Kar's anger at being bombed with asteroids (unless it is dishonorable to be attacked by cheap weapons).

More like it's dishonorable to attack with weapons that cause so much non-military casualties and random destruction.

[Nephilim]

JMS specifically said that only one novel was considered completely canon. Clearly he is using a different definition of what is canon and what is not. I have no idea how he comes to such a conclusion, but he appears to. Incidentally, there are other contradictions within B5 canon itself (especially on scaling issues, ie. the station's mass). Lucas did not say that he views the EU as a different universe. What he said was that the EU material that is CONTRADICTED should be seen as an alternate universe (for example, the bizarre series of comics that is coming out that has no canonical value whatsoever). Lucas is also in deep control of his universe, to the point where two completed manuscripts for novels have been rejected outright because they violated SW canon. Clearly LFL and Lucas are taking greater care to ensure that the material presented in the EU is canonical (by the LFL standard of the word). JMS, on the other hand, appears to consider canon completely differently from what we would ordinarily regard as canon. I also see that you totally disregarded my points about how the Minbari were able to defeat the Shadows, and therefore they should have a relative parity of technology. Concession accepted.

I didn't see your points regarding the Minbari defeating the Shadows, infact i never even mentioned them in any of my posts. I only kept to talking about your points about the Mass Drivers and their use, and how B5Wars should be considered at least official. There is no concession there...

But to take on the discussion about how i supposedly totally disregarded your points about how the Minbari were able to defeat the Shadows... I assume you're talking about about the Great War 1,000 years before the B5 show timeline. This war was fought over a period of 10 years, and it wasn't only the Minbari that were fighting the Shadows, there were others such as the Yolu (which have technology at least as advanced as the Minbari) and many others that were involved in the alliance in the war against the Shadows (refer to War Without an End for the mention of the Alliance against the Shadows). It wasn't only the Minbari fighting against the Shadows, it was an entire alliance composed of races many races, many of whom did not even survive the war in a very good shape, such as those that now make up the Minbari Protectorate.

Also, JMS is aware of the scaling issues on the show. And in one of his UserNET postings he deals with one of your examples (i.e. the stations mass, i'll try to find it for you). But this is due to B5 changing the company making its CGI more than once during the show's run. There's also the fact that in an effort to correct the scaling issues, JMS told (i forget his name, the person who did all CGI for B5 in Crusade) to create a chart for the canon ship sizes for all ships.

To continue the argument about that what JMS says is canon... should well... be viewed as canon or at least official. To my knowledge, there have been only three B5 Trilogies released. Legions of Fire, Psi Corps, and Technomage Trilogies, plus other books that were written as novelizations from the B5 Telemovies (such as ItB, Thirdspace, ACtA ect) all of which were written with either JMS providing material on which the trilogies are based (as he did with the Technomage Trilogy) or one of the show's Executive Producers helping the writers of the books. There are also a series of short stories that JMS wrote himself. HOW, if he was involved in their writting and gave the initial material and helped the writers of these books, can they not be considered a continuation of his OWN universe. Its like saying that a novel that Lucas himself wrote, or helped write or gave material for and was licensed by the company that wrote the canon rules for SW (as per your example, you state the Lucas is involved in the novels) is not a continuation of his OWN universe, and should not be considered canon or official at all. This - to me, makes no sense...

[Nephilim]

Nephilim: How is JMS's quote about the first completely canon B5 novel to be interpreted any differently? How else are we to explain the fact that canon novels in B5 seem to go against the series in places, and even against each other in others (for instance, what G'Kar's wife is named). I do not see how such discrepencies can be explained in any way other than to say that canon in B5 does not equal canon in SW.

Can you give me the quote where JMS says that there's only one completely canon novel? I'd really appreciate it

Also, how would you explain that there are some books in EU that makes fighters the absolute fighter killers against capital ships? That a volley of i believe 80 proton torpedoes (which i think their yield is 1 gigaton? correct me if i'm wrong please) were able to cause complete shield failure of an SSD. How can this be explained other than the authors of the novels using material that made fighters that strong? And then, we have a contradiction that later on in other EU novels, fighters are again not very effective against capital ships, unless used in conjuction with another capital ship. There are also the descrepencies with the SSD size, the Death Star (160 km for DSII instead of 900 km). There's also when Daala bombards a world with full turbolasers of her ISD, but they were only capable of causing forest fires?

These are far more glaring inconsistensies than the ones you mention for B5. I for one never heard that G'kar had a wife, count me surprised

But you must admit, that the contradictions throughout SW EU are far larger than those in B5, *yet* it is still considered official... Yet, when i give you a direct quote from JMS, you don't agree that it should also be given that same status...

[Guest]

About the Minbari defeating the Shadows - they didn't. They were part of the alliance the Vorlons gathered to help them fight the war, but they weren't the ones who decided the outcome.

The Vorlons were the ones who could really threaten the Shadows. The Minbari and the rest of the younger races were just there to tip the scales to the Vorlons' favour.

[Master of Ossus]

The Vorlons did not actually fight in the last Great War (1000 years ago). Kosh I was the first Vorlon to die in 10,000 years. Clearly they were not serious contenders in the war. The Minbari and the other races were left to fight for themselves. Since B5, after upgrade, cannot possibly fight a group of Shadow vessels, I am forced to believe that B4 would also be similarly handicapped in combat against them. Thus, B4 could only have been important as a shipyard for the Minbari.

I did not say that there was only one canon novel in B5, I said that there was a first one hundred percent canon one. That was "To Dream in the City of Sorrows." Note that the others were also considered canon (except by B5 fans), in terms of officiality. This is inconsistent. Note that G'Kar's wife's name changes, and that there are various other inconsistencies within the show and with others.

"JMS Speaks

While she has written prose for Twilight Zone magazine, and other national publications, and is a Clarion graduate, this will mark her first novel. It's quite good (having read most of it now), tracking Sinclair's journey from B5 to Minbar, taking up the role of Ambassador, then transitioning to head of the Rangers.
This book stands to be the first one (closely followed by Jeanne Cavelos' forthcoming B5 book) that's 100% canon...to be considered a true chapter in the B5 storyline.

What's fun about it is that it ties all the books and comics together with the show, and puts it all in chronological order, and weaves in and out of events in the second season. I think this is going to be a fan favorite. The Cavelos book follows Anna Sheridan as she comes to join the crew of the Icarus, and the details of their fate at Z'ha'dum. "

This quote can be found at:
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/novels/009.html

How can these quotes be reconciled with a SW like policy on canon? If canon status is being awarded to books that are not canon, how are we to tell the difference?

Incidentally, you are right about torpedoes. I hated that part of the X-Wing series. That is inconsistent for the EU, but it is also contradicted by the movies. SW has a policy that allows for that. Canon>official>apocryphal. It has an orderly method of determining what takes precedence. The problem with B5 is that I don't see any such order. Some people even refuse to accept the movies, like ItB! While I know that you two do not, it is disturbing to me that you would like to insert your own methods for determining the canonicity of things.

Incidentally, the firepower of proton torpedoes only appears to be in the 250-500 MT range. Not one gigaton. That cannot be reconciled with the shield failure of an SSD, and is inconsistent with the movies and the rest of the EU. Daala bombarded a world with turbolasers from her ISD, but that can be reconciled with the rest of the EU AND the movies. Therefore it is reasonable. The discrepencies in SSD and DS sizes are not reconcilable, so the movies take precedence.

G'Kar's wife is mentioned in two different canon novels. While she is never mentioned on the show (IIRC), she appears in two novels awarded canon status. Note that both were published before City of Sorrows, but they were still awarded an inconsistent status.

[Guest]

The Vorlons did not actually fight in the last Great War (1000 years ago). Kosh I was the first Vorlon to die in 10,000 years. Clearly they were not serious contenders in the war. The Minbari and the other races were left to fight for themselves. Since B5, after upgrade, cannot possibly fight a group of Shadow vessels, I am forced to believe that B4 would also be similarly handicapped in combat against them. Thus, B4 could only have been important as a shipyard for the Minbari.

From B5tech.com:

"So violent was the last Great War a thousand years ago, the Vorlons were forced to ask the other First Ones for assistance in curbing the Shadows advance.

And so the gods of old fought along side the younger races in a no-holds barred war with the Shadows and their students. In the aftermath of the war, there was no clear winner to decide if the Shadows or Vorlons had been right. Almost all the younger races involved in the war were completely destroyed. Only a precious few like the Minbari, survived the last Great War"

This would seem to imply that the Vorlons were involved in the war. The graphic novel In Valen's Name (written by JMS himself) also shows Vorlons and younger races fighting the Shadows side by side. And although I can't give you an exact source, I also seem to remember this being stated in the series itself.

Besides, having seen how the Sharlin cruisers, the most powerful vessels in the Minbari fleet, do against Shadow ships (not well at all), it is completely impossible that they could have defeated them with 1000 years older tech.

[Master of Ossus]

1. B5Tech is not a canon source by any stretch of the word. It is barely an apocryphal source.
2. How did the Vorlons fight during the war if none of them died?
3. If it was impossible for the Minbari to win with technology 1000 years less developed, why was the gift of B4 the turning point of the conflict? How could the Minbari have been so important to the war that the entire conflict hinged upon their having a second shipyard, when their largest one was just destroyed? How could the Minbari have contributed so much to a fleet made up primarily of the Vorlons and First Ones and a few other Younger Races?

[Guest]

1. B5Tech is not a canon source by any stretch of the word. It is barely an apocryphal source.[/B]

No, it's not, but then I have no reason to believe that they've made this stuff up, either. Most of it is taken directly from the series.

2. How did the Vorlons fight during the war if none of them died?

What canon source does this info that no Vorlons had died in 10,000 years come from, then?

3. If it was impossible for the Minbari to win with technology 1000 years less developed, why was the gift of B4 the turning point of the conflict? How could the Minbari have been so important to the war that the entire conflict hinged upon their having a second shipyard, when their largest one was just destroyed? How could the Minbari have contributed so much to a fleet made up primarily of the Vorlons and First Ones and a few other Younger Races?

So what you're suggesting is that 1000 years ago, the Minbari were more powerful than The First Ones? Because that's the only way they could have defeated the Shadows by themselves - even if they had other races fighting by their side. And, since we've seen that even the 2250s Minbari Sharlins are no match for Shadow vessels, you're also saying that the Minbari level of technology has significantly been reduced during the last millennium?

[Nephilim]

The Vorlons did not actually fight in the last Great War (1000 years ago). Kosh I was the first Vorlon to die in 10,000 years. Clearly they were not serious contenders in the war. The Minbari and the other races were left to fight for themselves. Since B5, after upgrade, cannot possibly fight a group of Shadow vessels, I am forced to believe that B4 would also be similarly handicapped in combat against them. Thus, B4 could only have been important as a shipyard for the Minbari.

This is true, Kosh was the first Vorlon to die in millenia, which is why the Vorlons took the death of Kosh so hard. But there's also the fact that the Vorlons do not, for the most part crew their own ships. They have their own Servitor races, as the Shadows have their thralls. Also, there's also the fact that Babylon 4 was a far better combatant that B5 ever was, even with its upgrades. B4 was bigger, better armed, and had nearly twice the amount of fighters onboard than B5 itself was capable of carrying. The point of bringing the station 1,000 years in the past, was to give the allied races a forward base from which they could bring the war to the Shadows. A forward base, from which to bring the fight to the enemy is extremely important when fighting a war, without it, the allies would've eventually lost the war.

I did not say that there was only one canon novel in B5, I said that there was a first one hundred percent canon one. That was "To Dream in the City of Sorrows." Note that the others were also considered canon (except by B5 fans), in terms of officiality. This is inconsistent. Note that G'Kar's wife's name changes, and that there are various other inconsistencies within the show and with others.

"JMS Speaks

While she has written prose for Twilight Zone magazine, and other national publications, and is a Clarion graduate, this will mark her first novel. It's quite good (having read most of it now), tracking Sinclair's journey from B5 to Minbar, taking up the role of Ambassador, then transitioning to head of the Rangers.
This book stands to be the first one (closely followed by Jeanne Cavelos' forthcoming B5 book) that's 100% canon...to be considered a true chapter in the B5 storyline.

What's fun about it is that it ties all the books and comics together with the show, and puts it all in chronological order, and weaves in and out of events in the second season. I think this is going to be a fan favorite. The Cavelos book follows Anna Sheridan as she comes to join the crew of the Icarus, and the details of their fate at Z'ha'dum. "

This quote can be found at:
http://www.midwinter.com/lurk/novels/009.html

How can these quotes be reconciled with a SW like policy on canon? If canon status is being awarded to books that are not canon, how are we to tell the difference?

Why does canon policy from B5 have to be the same as that of SW? Every company, and distributor from each of the show's that we are arguing here has its own policy regarding canon. Paramount has a canon policy in which only what we see on screen, some books, and one episode from the Animated Series is canon. This is most likely due to the fact that Gene Roddenberry is no longer alive, so he can't control the universe he created like he wanted to. Both SW, and B5 creator's both have their own canon policies as well. For SW, the movies are canon before all. B5 on the other hand, has JMS that is at the helm of all of its products, licenses, and determines, and has WRITTEN what is canon (such as the quote i provided from the b5Wars Rules Compendium).

Incidentally, you are right about torpedoes. I hated that part of the X-Wing series. That is inconsistent for the EU, but it is also contradicted by the movies. SW has a policy that allows for that. Canon>official>apocryphal. It has an orderly method of determining what takes precedence. The problem with B5 is that I don't see any such order. Some people even refuse to accept the movies, like ItB! While I know that you two do not, it is disturbing to me that you would like to insert your own methods for determining the canonicity of things.

Where is that part of EU contradicted in the movies? Fighters proved to be very important against the Empire in the movies, and in the Battle of Endor, there were a very visible part of the fight against the Imperial Fleet (although its my opinion that the Rebels shouldn'th have won, but that's me )

Also, i have never heard people say that the movies should not be accepted as canon. I have heard some people criticizing part of the movies (such as many Warsies like to criticize how the Ewoks beat an Imperial Legion...) But i have never heard that people refuse to accept them as canon. ItB is perhaps the most applauded of all B5 telemovies. The reason? Because it completely fits with canon and the series.

In addition, i have never tried to insert my own methods for determine canon in B5. I have simply stated, and given quotes from the creator of Babylon 5 himself on what he considers to be canon. He has been involved in all of the products made for Babylon 5, and based on HIS material. How is this me determining what is canon or not? It is a glaring fact that no two companies or creators are going to have the same kind of policy for canon for their universes. Lucas has his own, and JMS has his... You say that it should not be considered canon (B5Wars for example) because it doesn't fit SW definition of canon... Is it me, or is there something wrong with that?

Incidentally, the firepower of proton torpedoes only appears to be in the 250-500 MT range. Not one gigaton. That cannot be reconciled with the shield failure of an SSD, and is inconsistent with the movies and the rest of the EU. Daala bombarded a world with turbolasers from her ISD, but that can be reconciled with the rest of the EU AND the movies. Therefore it is reasonable. The discrepencies in SSD and DS sizes are not reconcilable, so the movies take precedence.

Thx for correcting the firepower of the Proton Torpedoes, i wasn't sure.

There is one glaring part about Daala bombarding with the full turbolasers of her ISD, and that CANNOT be reconciled with canon or the movies. The turbolasers were SPECIFICALLY stated to be armed at full power, and yet there were only causing forest fires. What is wrong with this? That these are Turbolasers! They now have an official firepower rating of at LEAST 200 gigaton. This is more than enough to start a forest fire.

G'Kar's wife is mentioned in two different canon novels. While she is never mentioned on the show (IIRC), she appears in two novels awarded canon status. Note that both were published before City of Sorrows, but they were still awarded an inconsistent status.

Actually, this can be reconciled with the show. During the show, G'Kar states that Narn children are given a name by their parents for the first 10 years of their life, and this name is considered to be extremely personal. When they reach 10 years of age, Narn children choose their own name. In the case of G'kar, he chose... well... G'Kar as he is a follower of G'Quan. Therefore, Narns have two names, one which is extremely personal (and G'kar would know because she is his wife) and one is the ones they have chosen themselves, and what they go by when they're adults.

[Master of Ossus]

This is true, Kosh was the first Vorlon to die in millenia, which is why the Vorlons took the death of Kosh so hard. But there's also the fact that the Vorlons do not, for the most part crew their own ships. They have their own Servitor races, as the Shadows have their thralls. Also, there's also the fact that Babylon 4 was a far better combatant that B5 ever was, even with its upgrades. B4 was bigger, better armed, and had nearly twice the amount of fighters onboard than B5 itself was capable of carrying. The point of bringing the station 1,000 years in the past, was to give the allied races a forward base from which they could bring the war to the Shadows. A forward base, from which to bring the fight to the enemy is extremely important when fighting a war, without it, the allies would've eventually lost the war.

Forward bases are important, but if the Vorlon were fighting then surely they could have constructed one of their own, right? The Vorlons (according to you guys) can destroy planets, why not just use their PKers as forward bases. Fact is that B4 can take on one, perhaps two shadow warships and provide a base for some others. The Minbari are always being talked about as having technology years more advanced than the other YRs. The gift of B4 should not have been the turning point in a war, if it was as massive as you claim.

Why does canon policy from B5 have to be the same as that of SW? Every company, and distributor from each of the show's that we are arguing here has its own policy regarding canon. Paramount has a canon policy in which only what we see on screen, some books, and one episode from the Animated Series is canon. This is most likely due to the fact that Gene Roddenberry is no longer alive, so he can't control the universe he created like he wanted to. Both SW, and B5 creator's both have their own canon policies as well. For SW, the movies are canon before all. B5 on the other hand, has JMS that is at the helm of all of its products, licenses, and determines, and has WRITTEN what is canon (such as the quote i provided from the b5Wars Rules Compendium).

B5 canon policy must be the same for you guys to use "canon" material the same way that SW uses canon material. Since that is clearly not the way that the term "canon" is used in B5, there must be a separate policy. JMS's definition of canon is clearly different from the definitions used in SW and ST, as evidenced by the quotes I provided. Clearly the term does not mean that something is 100% accurate. Canon, in B5, appears to mean that it is a licensed product. That is not the same thing as what canon means in SW and ST, so do not use statements demonstrating the "canon" status of a B5 product and then assume that it is completely accurate. That is not what "canon" in B5 means. There is nothing wrong with the canon policy that JMS uses for B5. There is a problem with taking the word "canon" on a B5 product and then saying that it means the same thing that it does if the word canon was attached to a SW product.

Where is that part of EU contradicted in the movies? Fighters proved to be very important against the Empire in the movies, and in the Battle of Endor, there were a very visible part of the fight against the Imperial Fleet (although its my opinion that the Rebels shouldn'th have won, but that's me )

It is contradicted in the movies by the fact that EVERY capital ship kill, except for the DS's, was caused by starfighters. It is contradicted by the fact that Naboo fighters could not punch through the shields of the TF control ship. It is contradicted by the LAAT's inability to knock down TF core ships in AotC, even though the capital-ship level weapons on the ground (SPHTs) were easily capable of destroying them.

Also, i have never heard people say that the movies should not be accepted as canon. I have heard some people criticizing part of the movies (such as many Warsies like to criticize how the Ewoks beat an Imperial Legion...) But i have never heard that people refuse to accept them as canon. ItB is perhaps the most applauded of all B5 telemovies. The reason? Because it completely fits with canon and the series.

I have heard MANY B5ers claim that the movies are not canon. In fact, every time I have ever heard that argument was while we were talking about ItB. I find it ridiculous that ItB, which (I agree) was the best and most consistent movie set in the B5 universe.

In addition, i have never tried to insert my own methods for determine canon in B5. I have simply stated, and given quotes from the creator of Babylon 5 himself on what he considers to be canon. He has been involved in all of the products made for Babylon 5, and based on HIS material. How is this me determining what is canon or not? It is a glaring fact that no two companies or creators are going to have the same kind of policy for canon for their universes. Lucas has his own, and JMS has his... You say that it should not be considered canon (B5Wars for example) because it doesn't fit SW definition of canon... Is it me, or is there something wrong with that?

And I have given quotes that are irreconcilable with a definition of "canon" similar to what SW and ST have. You're right. He is involved in all products made for B5, and it is his material. He appears not to care as much about the accuracy of the material in his products as would be required in order for the term "canon" to refer to the same things that it does in SW and ST (namely, 100% true, regardless of how much official or licensed material it contradicts). There is nothing wrong with saying that, given the demonstrated definition of canon in B5, "canon" B5 material is not necessarily accurate.

Incidentally, the firepower of proton torpedoes only appears to be in the 250-500 MT range. Not one gigaton. That cannot be reconciled with the shield failure of an SSD, and is inconsistent with the movies and the rest of the EU. Daala bombarded a world with turbolasers from her ISD, but that can be reconciled with the rest of the EU AND the movies. Therefore it is reasonable. The discrepencies in SSD and DS sizes are not reconcilable, so the movies take precedence.

Thx for correcting the firepower of the Proton Torpedoes, i wasn't sure.

NP.

There is one glaring part about Daala bombarding with the full turbolasers of her ISD, and that CANNOT be reconciled with canon or the movies. The turbolasers were SPECIFICALLY stated to be armed at full power, and yet there were only causing forest fires. What is wrong with this? That these are Turbolasers! They now have an official firepower rating of at LEAST 200 gigaton. This is more than enough to start a forest fire.

I already went over this with DarkStar (aka DumbShit). He insisted that all of the turbolaser's energy was converted into thermal energy when it struck something. We don't know exactly how much energy is converted into thermal and kinetic energy, and how much into photons, but remember that the amount of energy fired by the HTL's on an Acclamator and their firepower of 200 GT's is consistent with virtually all of the energy being converted into KE and not thermal energy. Other weapon in SW, such as the lightsaber and the 300GJ weapons on LAAT's, seem to create far more thermal energy than kinetic energy when they strike an object. Finally, this is official material, and can be overriden by canon material, which in this case we have (ie. Firepowers demonstrated by ISD light turbolasers and point defense canons easily destroying asteroids, and probably vaporizing them, in ESB).

G'Kar's wife is mentioned in two different canon novels. While she is never mentioned on the show (IIRC), she appears in two novels awarded canon status. Note that both were published before City of Sorrows, but they were still awarded an inconsistent status.

Actually, this can be reconciled with the show. During the show, G'Kar states that Narn children are given a name by their parents for the first 10 years of their life, and this name is considered to be extremely personal. When they reach 10 years of age, Narn children choose their own name. In the case of G'kar, he chose... well... G'Kar as he is a follower of G'Quan. Therefore, Narns have two names, one which is extremely personal (and G'kar would know because she is his wife) and one is the ones they have chosen themselves, and what they go by when they're adults.

Okay, it's reconciled. Concession granted.

[Nephilim]

Forward bases are important, but if the Vorlon were fighting then surely they could have constructed one of their own, right? The Vorlons (according to you guys) can destroy planets, why not just use their PKers as forward bases. Fact is that B4 can take on one, perhaps two shadow warships and provide a base for some others. The Minbari are always being talked about as having technology years more advanced than the other YRs. The gift of B4 should not have been the turning point in a war, if it was as massive as you claim.

The point is, they weren't fighting openly. The Vorlons were fighting behind the scenes, and providing support through their servitor races (one such example of a show era servitor race would be the Orieni). The point of the wars was to see which ideology was right, the Shadow one (Chaos) or Vorlon one (Order). I have already addressed this point on why the Vorlons or the Shadows for that matter did not deploy their largest weapons in the previous war. (Refer to the first post, the Vorlons and Shadows were forbidden by the Rules of Engagement that they had drawn up with Lorien himself, to not attack each other openly.)

Also, bases take long to build. After the destruction of the biggest Minbari base (which was used as the forward base in the war) the Minbari and the Allies began a general fighting retreat, because they could no longer coordinate the fleets effectively without that base. The appearance of B4 is extremely significant, because it gives the Minbari and the Allies a base that they didn't have before, to immediately begin offensives and bring the war to the Shadows, something that they could not have done without it. They wouldn't have had to wait while a new base was built, it was already there for them to use....

B5 canon policy must be the same for you guys to use "canon" material the same way that SW uses canon material. Since that is clearly not the way that the term "canon" is used in B5, there must be a separate policy. JMS's definition of canon is clearly different from the definitions used in SW and ST, as evidenced by the quotes I provided. Clearly the term does not mean that something is 100% accurate. Canon, in B5, appears to mean that it is a licensed product. That is not the same thing as what canon means in SW and ST, so do not use statements demonstrating the "canon" status of a B5 product and then assume that it is completely accurate. That is not what "canon" in B5 means. There is nothing wrong with the canon policy that JMS uses for B5. There is a problem with taking the word "canon" on a B5 product and then saying that it means the same thing that it does if the word canon was attached to a SW product.

You provided a quote for the very first novel that was done for b5 right? Then isn't it logical to say that the novels that followed that are of the "same" canon that you speak of?

On top of this, your example that says that every licensed product in B5 is canon (unless contradicted by the show which is the highest source of canon). Sure... why not? JMS is involved (how many times must i say this?) in every single product that has been made for B5, and is based on his material, based on what he wants for HIS universe. SW has a far larger amount of licensed products, and each one has to go through LucasFilms and Lucas to make sure that it doesn't encroach on his universe right? HOW is this any different from B5 and JMS being involved directly in every B5 product made, giving it his certification of it being an accurate depiction of his own universe? It would be like saying, that LucasFilms licensed a product that passed through Lucas himself saying that it is official and whatnot and it doesn't hold the same status as the other products that went through him and he approved in the past.

Now, if the product itself completely disregarded and did not conform to the highest canon (which would be the show in the case of B5, and the movies in the case of SW) then it cannot be regarded as official. But WHERE does B5Wars violate this? It gives the capabilities of the planetkiller, and it does NOT contradict anything that was on the show. Even JMS has been asked if the planetkiller destroyed the planet, and what did he answer? YES! What more do you want?

And I have given quotes that are irreconcilable with a definition of "canon" similar to what SW and ST have. You're right. He is involved in all products made for B5, and it is his material. He appears not to care as much about the accuracy of the material in his products as would be required in order for the term "canon" to refer to the same things that it does in SW and ST (namely, 100% true, regardless of how much official or licensed material it contradicts). There is nothing wrong with saying that, given the demonstrated definition of canon in B5, "canon" B5 material is not necessarily accurate.

I'll provide another part of what JMS said in the Rules Compendium foreword. This, from his own words, proves that AoG was directed to get everything right. And as i said before in the quote that i provided before from the same foreword, that the material the AoG made, be it be technical, or even the mini's made were used when the show was in production. Can you say the same for EU, which you hold its status as official, if not outright canon? That Lucas is taking material that is featured in EU and putting it in the prequel movies? I don't see a Dreadnought in AOTC; in the movies it is said by Palpatine himself that the Republic has stood for over 1,000 years when EU says it has stood for 25,000. Then there's the part where the Death Star was designed in large part by the Geneosians. Poof! There goes part of EU right there, because the Death Star was supposedly designed by Bevel Lemisk (i think i got his name wrong...), at the Maw Research Facility in Kessel, when from AOTC we see that the 'ultimate' weapon was designed by the Geneosians. Yet, you continue to hold all of these sources in EU as canon, eventhough some parts have been glaringly contradicted by the films. Yet when i provide you with quotes from a B5 book, that has a picture of JMS in the first page, you say that it doesn't match the same definition of canon that SW has and you say that he (JMS) doesn't care much about the accuracy of the material in the products when i have given many examples when this is exact the case with SW, and have given proof that NOTHING in B5Wars or any of the novels that have been published for B5 have not been accurate with the B5 universe. Ok, there's something wrong here in IMO....

Ok, so here's the quote...

"GETTING IT RIGHT

Making a television show like Babylon 5 requires that you think like an Irish border collie: you have to be detail-oriented, maniacally obsessive, tightly focused and utterly relentless. The massive and intertwined plots and stories aside, there are a million tiny details that you have to get right. How does the centrifugal force work inside B5 to create gravity? How can a Starfury fly backwards while firing forward? What is the gravity on Mars?
You know why you have to get them right? Because if you don't, you get letters. (No, no, it should be centripedal, not centrifugal, you idiot. And by the way, can i have an autographed picture so i can hang it in the basement of my Mom's house where i'm living while i finish up on my third PhD in quantum mechanics?")
Sometimes its difficult to make licensees understand the importance of getting the details right. For a show like B5, this is massively important. As Michelangelo said, "Trifles make perfection, and perfection is no trifle."
So you will understand how wonderful the experience of working with Agents of Gaming has been throughout the history of B5. They were not only among the first to come aboard the license B5, they instantly understood our desire to Get Things Right in the smallest detail, and even took it a step further, becoming even more rigorous then we were."

So i ask you again, is it so hard to understand that JMS has given this product (B5Wars, and all others with the B5 name on it) his blessing. That the company that made the product was even given to the show producers when JMS himself wasn't available to answer a technical question. Is it so hard to accept that this source is official and DOES NOT violate any canon put forth by the show?

[His Divine Shadow]

Remember that the Minbari, the most advanced of all the Younger Races, still used their infantry forces against GROPOS for no apparent reason. Planetary bombardment appears to be extremely limited in scale in B5, except with planet-killers. Remember that even the Centauri, another highly advanced race, needed special weapons to bomb Narn, and that those appeared to be little more than rock-throwers. I see little evidence of planetary bombardment being common in B5, and significant evidence that it is not.

Because effective energy weapons range is 10.000km according to one movie and I guess they don't carry much missile weaponry.

[His Divine Shadow]

Incidentally, the firepower of proton torpedoes only appears to be in the 250-500 MT range. Not one gigaton. That cannot be reconciled with the shield failure of an SSD, and is inconsistent with the movies and the rest of the EU.

Yes it can, a proton torpedoe is not a conventional weapon, as in just a simple explosive, it's something unconventional, maybe exotic.

Daala bombarded a world with turbolasers from her ISD, but that can be reconciled with the rest of the EU AND the movies. Therefore it is reasonable. The discrepencies in SSD and DS sizes are not reconcilable, so the movies take precedence.

Yes, forrest fires, of wich size? Immediatly visible from geosynch orbit, strips of jungle dissapearing and so on, sounds like it can be interprepted as being very big too.