watching B5 for the first time and it seems good

[rhoenix]

The only problem of In the beginning is the sheer amount of spoilage it does. The start and end of the film pretty much reveals huge parts of the story well before you should know. It is something that watch after season 5 to get the missing holes.

Gotcha; this confirms what I've heard from others, in that I should wait on the movies until after at least the end of Season 4. I'll do so after Season 5, since despite the massive ripping on this season I've seen so far, it can't be anymore retarded than what ST:TNG or even ST:VOY did on a regular basis.

[ThomasP]

Granted it's been years since I've seen ITB, but does it really spoil any more than the big episodes of S3?

I'm trying to recall, and I think that really once you've seen the Messages from Earth/Severed Dreams arc, (especially) the War Without End two-parter, and then the last 2-3 eps of the season culminating in "Z'ha'dum" you've pretty much been spoiled to the same degree as ITB.

From there it just goes into the Earth-Minbari war - or am I leaving something big out?

[Ghost Rider]

Granted it's been years since I've seen ITB, but does it really spoil any more than the big episodes of S3?

I'm trying to recall, and I think that really once you've seen the Messages from Earth/Severed Dreams arc, (especially) the War Without End two-parter, and then the last 2-3 eps of the season culminating in "Z'ha'dum" you've pretty much been spoiled to the same degree as ITB.

From there it just goes into the Earth-Minbari war - or am I leaving something big out?

You mean like the future of the Centauri? You mean like the future of not one but five of the main characters?

The meat of the story does explain a bit more backhistory on a lot of characters and such not...but the prologue and epilogue of it literally give away large swaths of spoiler material.

[ThomasP]

Granted it's been years since I've seen ITB, but does it really spoil any more than the big episodes of S3?

I'm trying to recall, and I think that really once you've seen the Messages from Earth/Severed Dreams arc, (especially) the War Without End two-parter, and then the last 2-3 eps of the season culminating in "Z'ha'dum" you've pretty much been spoiled to the same degree as ITB.

From there it just goes into the Earth-Minbari war - or am I leaving something big out?

You mean like the future of the Centauri? You mean like the future of not one but five of the main characters?

Spoiler

You mean the stuff which is given away when Sheridan flashes forward to the throne room in War Without End, and we see Centauri Prime in ruins and then G'Kar kills Londo and his keeper?

[Anguirus]

ItB was written and shot between season 4 and 5. That's when you'd watch it. It's not actually needed to understand anything if you've been paying attention, but more importantly it is good.

[OmegaChief]

Indeed ITB was qritten and amde between seasons 4 and 5, so that makes a good place to watch it!

Unless you're me and you wind up descovering B5 by watching ITB... well you can imagine how that effected things.

Didn't take too much away from the show, but it did make ceritna spoilers have less impact.

[Netko]

It was partly made to be the introduction. JMS believed that by the time it was made the major plot points were all over the interwebs already so it was decided to actually show the background. The idea was that instead of being in the dark along with the characters in season 1 (mostly), you take the role of outside observer going "Sinclair, open your eyes; those Minbari aren't what you think!".

As for the prologue and ending spoiling things, the spoilerage pretty much ends with the time-travel episodes (War without end), so it should be safe to watch after that.

Personal order of quality of the movies:
1. In the beginning
2. The gathering
- pilot - get the remastered version which is much better
3. Thirdspace
4. Legend of the rangers
- yes, yes, DBZ spaceporn, but other then that its a pretty fun adventure romp
5. A call to a arms
6. Lost tales (probably avoid)
7. River of souls (avoid at all costs)

[rhoenix]

Well. I've finally made it to near the end of Season 4, with Ep. 22 left to watch.

This show truly shows the difference between writing a show from episode to episode, and writing it all out beforehand. I'm quite impressed so far.

I have not yet watched any of the movies, and likely will not until after I finish watching at least Season 4.

[fgalkin]

The beginning of Season 5 returns to Season 1 quality, with standalone filler episodes, and an extremely annoying grot as a new important character. The second half picks up, and then it's just wrapping up loose ends. And the Londo/G'Kar arc. They get a lot of screentime in the last half of season 5.

The final episode, Sleeping in Light, is the best series finale ever. Bar none.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[CaptJodan]

The beginning of Season 5 returns to Season 1 quality, with standalone filler episodes, and an extremely annoying grot as a new important character. The second half picks up, and then it's just wrapping up loose ends. And the Londo/G'Kar arc. They get a lot of screentime in the last half of season 5.

It's certainly the weakest since Season One, I have to agree.

It's important to remember that JMS did intend to extend the Earth thing through to Season 5, but felt he had to wrap it up because they were about to be canceled yet again (before being put on TNT). With the Earth thing wrapped up, he had to invent story he never really intended to tell to fill a season, and it shows. The fault lies both with the fact that it got another season, and that JMS couldn't bring more story material in that was actually compelling enough as filler for one last season.

The final episode, Sleeping in Light, is the best series finale ever. Bar none.

The Shield's finale, for me, is damned close, but I have to agree with you on this point. Bar none of any sci-fi series, this finale is the best. I felt very satisfied years ago when I first saw it, which is not a feeling I get from almost any show ending.

[Stark]

Well. I've finally made it to near the end of Season 4, with Ep. 22 left to watch.

This show truly shows the difference between writing a show from episode to episode, and writing it all out beforehand. I'm quite impressed so far.

I have not yet watched any of the movies, and likely will not until after I finish watching at least Season 4.

What do you think of the idea that arc-critical events are placed in episodes of pretty poor quality? I really like s2 and 3, but so much of it is crap... but if you only watch the good eps, you lose much of the arc-yness.

[fgalkin]

It's a great idea, because it makes you tune in every week for every episode?

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Stark]

Are you saying they knew more than half their A-plots were total rubbish? It just means the show is inaccessible to people who aren't prepared to tolerate absurdity or low quality in scifi (which is much of the human race). It's a shame too, because it's a good show overall, but just so much eye-rolling.

[rhoenix]

What do you think of the idea that arc-critical events are placed in episodes of pretty poor quality? I really like s2 and 3, but so much of it is crap... but if you only watch the good eps, you lose much of the arc-yness.

Ok, then this begs the question - what standards are you using to define "poor quality?"

I thought the exploration of some of the other details about this universe were helpful in setting the feeling and tone of the setting, quality of sets/acting/production aside.

[fgalkin]

See above.

Poor quality compared to nBSG, perhaps. Compared to contemporary shows like TNG, DS9, and VOY? The quality is about the same to slightly better, and the episodes have the advantage of not being pure technobabble dramatic non-entities.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[rhoenix]

See above.

Poor quality compared to nBSG, perhaps. Compared to contemporary shows like TNG, DS9, and VOY? The quality is about the same to slightly better, and the episodes have the advantage of not being pure technobabble dramatic non-entities.

I can't help but think that if the writers had to plan ahead multiple seasons in advance, it would take care of most of the technobabble crap that detracts so painfully from the experience of watching things unfold in a given universe, as most of it ends up being time filler at best.

I mean, even the whole King Arthur episode of B5 was a good character study on G'Kar, as well as the consequences of war - I can't really compare the weaker episodes of B5 to the weaker episodes of the multiple Trek series, since even the weaker B5 episodes had their good points.

[Stark]

What do you think of the idea that arc-critical events are placed in episodes of pretty poor quality? I really like s2 and 3, but so much of it is crap... but if you only watch the good eps, you lose much of the arc-yness.

Ok, then this begs the question - what standards are you using to define "poor quality?"

I thought the exploration of some of the other details about this universe were helpful in setting the feeling and tone of the setting, quality of sets/acting/production aside.

It's accesibility. People will watch an interesting and dramatic show about politics and betrayal... in space. Ordinary normal people will laugh out loud at hammy nonsense like 'King Arthur shows up and demonstrates G'Kar is a credulous and violent moron'. This is why it's hard for normal people to get into B5 now; it's a show of it's time and while it's got a great story and lots of good stuff, it's mixed in evenly with complete balls. If I wanted to show a normal person with taste the leadup to the split with the EA, you know how much eye-rolling campy nonsense they'd have to ignore in order to follow this interesting and engaging plot.

[rhoenix]

It's accesibility. People will watch an interesting and dramatic show about politics and betrayal... in space. Ordinary normal people will laugh out loud at hammy nonsense like 'King Arthur shows up and demonstrates G'Kar is a credulous and violent moron'. This is why it's hard for normal people to get into B5 now; it's a show of it's time and while it's got a great story and lots of good stuff, it's mixed in evenly with complete balls. If I wanted to show a normal person with taste the leadup to the split with the EA, you know how much eye-rolling campy nonsense they'd have to ignore in order to follow this interesting and engaging plot.

Ah, I see what you mean - it basically was good, campy, dated scifi from the 90's. Even with that though, the very fact that it had good writing (even with everything else aside) lets me forgive most of the rest.

Now mind you, I'm not excusing the everything else aspect (acting, sets, etc.) out of fanboyishness, but because it's helping to inspire a number of subtleties I needed some examples of in my writing - in particular, the politics of things. I will fully grant that were I trying to make my own scifi show, my criteria would be rather different.

[Stark]

Yeah, I dig the show too, it's just a shame it's so very scifi, given that it's got a proper plot (even if it is a bit silly). I can watch it; but I can watch Blakes 7.

[Marcus Aurelius]

It's accesibility. People will watch an interesting and dramatic show about politics and betrayal... in space. Ordinary normal people will laugh out loud at hammy nonsense like 'King Arthur shows up and demonstrates G'Kar is a credulous and violent moron'. This is why it's hard for normal people to get into B5 now; it's a show of it's time and while it's got a great story and lots of good stuff, it's mixed in evenly with complete balls. If I wanted to show a normal person with taste the leadup to the split with the EA, you know how much eye-rolling campy nonsense they'd have to ignore in order to follow this interesting and engaging plot.

Are you talking about production values, acting, scripts, directing or all of them? Fact is that high production values depend on money. Many people will watch incredible cliché soup if it has good production values and some charismatic actors. Case in point: both CSI franchise spinoff series. CSI: Miami is almost self-parody - sometimes I think that it actually is - but quite a few people still watch it all over the world. David Caruso is a walking mannerism; no wonder he was unable to get any good jobs after leaving NYPD Blue. Some people still think he's charismatic. I actually watch CSI: Miami for the camp value, but I doubt I am in the majority among people who watch it. CSI: NY is just a tad better so that it isn't funny anymore. It's just plain old boring, so I don't watch it (or the original show, which wore out sometime around Season 5).

There are of course other cop shows that are almost as bad as CSI: Miami, but there would be little point to list them all here. So, "ordinary" people don't really have trouble with B5 because some of the stupid plots, but because it belongs to a nerdy genre (the primary reason) and because it had fairly low production values (especially season 1 had pretty amusing props). It is also an interesting psychological phenomenon that many people instantly become a lot more critical towards plots once the genre is not something they have used to, or is outside of the mainstream popular culture.

[Marcus Aurelius]

The final episode, Sleeping in Light, is the best series finale ever. Bar none.

The Shield's finale, for me, is damned close, but I have to agree with you on this point. Bar none of any sci-fi series, this finale is the best. I felt very satisfied years ago when I first saw it, which is not a feeling I get from almost any show ending.

I haven't seen The Shield's finale (in general it did not interest me enough to watch it all the way to the end), but I would have to say Blackadder Goes Forth's final episode (i.e. the finale of the actual series excluding specials) is the best I have seen. They really don't make stuff like that any more.

[Stark]

That's a lot of psychoanalysis for 'King Arthur? Seriously? What about xyz conspiracy? Pfft -click-'. If you don't think you have to consciously ignore the hammyness of the silly episodes, that's very interesting.

[fgalkin]

Don't be a grot, Stark. The B5 lot had no way to anticipate the rise of non-campy pseudomainstream sci-fi like nBSG and Heroes. B5 is a product of its time, so of course, it has camp and cheese, and of course it's not for "normal" people. Most sci-fi older than the last decade is not for "normal" people, because those were not their intended audience. Case in point, people tried bringing over Star Trek to Russia (influenced in part, by the success of B5, ironically). It failed epically. Why? It's far too cheesy for "normal" people that have no cultural attachment to it the way Americans do. Same goes for Dr. Who- if you didn't grow up watching it, it's just silly nonsense.

B5 falls into the same category, but at least it has strong writing to make it stand out of the bunch. It's midway between the cheese and mainstream. It's got a good plot, but the campy shit is pulling it back into nerdland.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Stark]

Oh for sure; I'm not blaming their development or whatever, it's just a shame. I seriously do wonder if you could just splice the episodes to remove the silly A-plots while keeping the main plot and universe updates and scheming intact, becasue then it'd be way more accessible.

I mean, I basically tell normal people to skip the first season, because it's so typical 90s scifi. If some time-travel magic had changed the bizarro-plots, it would be as accessible as Firefly (which normal people can watch just fine).

[Jade Falcon]

As to what happened ultimately to B5, I've heard this...
Spoiler

While the excuses were used about it being outdated, a navigation hazard and so on, which I think is a bit lame myself, it's theorised that ultimately there were still those conservative types within Earthdome that found the place a bit of an embarrasment, due to it having been the site of a mutiny against Earthforce and that there will have still have been some officers both within Earthforce and politicians within the Earth Alliance in general that might just have wanted rid of it.