Police in Atlanta raid gay bar because they could.

[Lord of the Abyss]

Making everyone go to the ground, and temporarily confiscating cell phones during a raid at a bar or any raid in general in standard procedure due to lessons learned from other raids.

Their property was not given back when the raid concluded. Is that standard procedure?

I don't know about the specific asset forfeiture laws there, but I understand that in many places the cops can basically grab whatever they like claiming it may be the proceeds of a crime. And keep it, unless you go through an elaborate, expensive legal procedure in hopes of getting it back.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Certainly if that is the case then it is highly illegal and those officers involved should face consequences. However, going off the police report the raid was conducted based off observations made by undercover officers and citizen witnesses in the area who stated that these people were engaged in sexual acts inside and outside the bar.

Given that some idiots out there will take something as simple as gay people kissing to be offensive and/or sexual, I'm inclined to take those eye-witness accounts with a very heavy jar of salt.

Given the amount of bigotry towards homosexuals I would hope the police have video evidence available because I think the standard should be raised that high due to the prior intolerant actions of law enforcement.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Sorry Sith but color me skeptical that the real reason is the fact that most phones sold today are video phones and the first thing that happens when the police do a raid is that people with video phones do is whip them out not to call people but to record the event. As we had this discussion during the Bart police shooting and the London protests of this year people are almost condition to do this now anytime the police do anything in front of them. Because time after time since the Rodney King Incident people start recording if not in hopes of catch such an event on film but in case such a event occurs in front of them. And the main reason the cops take phones is prevent them from being filmed doing their job.

Sorry Sith but I can't buy that "they call their friends to come attack officers" excuse when a much more likely reason exists. They do not want to be filmed and taking away cell phones which contain video camera's is the best way to do this.

Yes, those incidents make the news Bean. However, the other stuff does not. I could tell you about a traffic stop on a car full of gang members who were suspected of a drive by shooting who texted a friend to come by and shoot the cops on the stop and they did come by. That didn't make the news.

I could tell you of a dozen other incidents where persons being investigated sent texts to their friends who later showed up to harass or interfer in the investigation. In one case an entire family showed up to a criminal investigation and began threatening officers to release their son. Again, that didn't make the news. So, all I can tell you is that cell phones are a real officer safety concern...you can doubt all you want.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Again, assuming the police did not lie WRT to the probable cause. The city needs to provide that evidence when the lawsuit occurs and the police officer's word is not enough here.

Agreed. Since we don't have access to that evidence we can only discuss what both parties have said. Unfortunately our life experiences have created a rift. I see people lie all the time. They straight up fabricate shit that never happened and claim that they were physically abused by officers but it never happened.

On the other side you've obviously been the victim of harassment from intolerant law enforcement officers and therefore, you don't trust cops. That's fine and I don't blame you. So, you can take the word of the patrons and I'll take the word of the officers. The reason for this is simple. That's what I would want someone to do if I were in these officers shoes because I am not an intolerant officer. If I arrest you it is because I believe you committed a crime.

Their property was not given back when the raid concluded. Is that standard procedure?

The police report doesn't mention the seizure of property, and unless it was identified as evidence then that would be very illegal...

[Kamakazie Sith]

Certainly if that is the case then it is highly illegal and those officers involved should face consequences. However, going off the police report the raid was conducted based off observations made by undercover officers and citizen witnesses in the area who stated that these people were engaged in sexual acts inside and outside the bar.

Historically speaking, given the history of law enforcements interactions with the homosexual community, "sexual acts" could include anything down to and including dancing together, hand holding, or looking at each other too hard.

Historically speaking. However, unless I'm mistaken most states have fixed that problem. Everything must be defined. Thus, sexual acts is probably defined. Also, I have to remind you that the police report clearly documents sexual acts.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Video is an ally of the police unless the police are knowingly engaged in illegal acts. It's very difficult for me to give the police the benefit of the doubt for the already stated reason that there is a very long history of LGBT harassment from the police department in US History.

How long is that history with those officers who are involved in this incident. Sorry, I'm not a fan of "the sins of our fathers" logic. Frankly, it's just as shaking as just relying on the police report without evidence.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I'm interested in the idea that levels of regulation facilitate this kind of behaviour. In AU, liqour and especially the sex industry is pretty tightly regulated, but if the cops raided for no reason and confiscated a bunch of shit based on nothing, they'd be totally fucked. And our cops are corrupt as hell. Individual cops might throw the weight around on small operators to get cooperation (especially in the sex industry) but any floor manager with a decent knowledge of the law can just tell them to fuck off and there's nothing they can do.

How can there be so little oversight, standards or review of police actions? From an AU perspective, if so many people really have no trouble accepting this and consider entire police departments corrupt/bigoted/arbitrary, the police department has already roundly failed at it's job.

The review comes in court where the police will present their evidence. It seems people on this board feel that the review comes to the media, and I honestly have no idea why. The media reports information, and in some cases they are every bit as corrupt as corrupt law enforcement.

[Duckie]

Video is an ally of the police unless the police are knowingly engaged in illegal acts. It's very difficult for me to give the police the benefit of the doubt for the already stated reason that there is a very long history of LGBT harassment from the police department in US History.

How long is that history with those officers who are involved in this incident. Sorry, I'm not a fan of "the sins of our fathers" logic. Frankly, it's just as shaking as just relying on the police report without evidence.

So suddenly now a history of abuse and discrimination doesn't count for anything? In other news, Domestic Abuse charges in Kamakazie's Idiotic Worldview (whose name incidentally is misspelled, it's Kamikaze) can't be made on testimony of the wife and evidence of the prejudice of the husband against women and a history of abuse without a video documenting it. After all, innocent until proven guilty? And certainly if a KKK member kills a black man, just because he belongs to an organisation that has for several decades victimised black men doesn't mean it was a hate crime. It's pure reverse bigotry to suggest such a horrible thing without evidence! How horrid!

Will nobody think of the poor policemen? Think about how hard it must be to find minor code violations, storm into bars of minorities, and throw them to the floor and steal their electronic equipment while uttering hate speech! It's scandalous in this day and age such horrible things could happen to a policeman, such honest defenders of freedom and humanity being hounded for merely doing their duty.

THIS JUST IN, BREAKING NEWS: Male White Straight man doesn't understand discrimination and violence against women blacks gays, pooh-poohs the idea that it happens in the modern, oh-so-enlightened era. I'd point out where his location says, but that's just a low blow, because I wouldn't want to stain the honour of Utah by associating it with him.

[Kamakazie Sith]

So suddenly now a history of abuse and discrimination doesn't count for anything? In other news, Domestic Abuse charges in Kamakazie's Idiotic Worldview (whose name incidentally is misspelled, it's Kamikaze) can't be made on testimony of the wife and evidence of the prejudice of the husband against women and a history of abuse without a video documenting it. After all, innocent until proven guilty? And certainly if a KKK member kills a black man, just because he belongs to an organisation that has for several decades victimised black men doesn't mean it was a hate crime. It's pure reverse bigotry to suggest such a horrible thing without evidence! How horrid!

Did I say it didn't count for anything? Listen, Duckie. I understand you haven't really been involved in this thread and that post might have set off a nerve with you. I respect your desire to be emotional. However, I didn't say that at all. Also, in domestic situations if a persons wife says "He hit me in the face" and there are no marks...guess what motherfucker? We don't, or at least shouldn't, arrest people based off testimony alone. Evidence is required.

Your KKK example is pure stupidity. You seriously just compared the police to the KKK. The KKK is an organization whose mission is one of hate, whose teachings are one of hate. Now, if you have some evidence that the Atlanta PD is organization whose mission is one of hate against homosexuals then you might have case. However, you do not. In fact I'd bet you'll find that there are consequences for bigotted behavior.

Also, your personal attack is completely irrelevant to this thread. My user name is misspelled on purpose (uninteresting story), and has been that way for roughly 8 years when I started on SB.com. Due to the policy for proper spelling on this board I asked if the board admin would change my name. They felt that since my spelling and use of grammar is reasonably proper then my internet handle is irrelevant. So, fuck off bitch.

Will nobody think of the poor policemen? Think about how hard it must be to find minor code violations, storm into bars of minorities, and throw them to the floor and steal their electronic equipment while uttering hate speech! It's scandalous in this day and age such horrible things could happen to a policeman, such honest defenders of freedom and humanity being hounded for merely doing their duty.

Wow, you are an idiot. I challenge you to go back through this thread and find where I OKed that kind of action. Furthermore, this article is accusing these officers of acts that could cost them their jobs and in some cases their freedom. Don't you think evidence should be required before you fire someone? (edited)

THIS JUST IN, BREAKING NEWS: Male White Straight man doesn't understand discrimination and violence against women blacks gays, pooh-poohs the idea that it happens in the modern, oh-so-enlightened era. I'd point out where his location says, but that's just a low blow, because I wouldn't want to stain the honour of Utah by associating it with him.

Your statements here are hilarious and really if you had actually paid attention and knew facts about my life and the city and department I work for you'd be ashamed that you made such emotionally motivated comments.

[Duckie]

Yeah, whatever. Maybe I'm being emotional- or maybe I'm just looking at the facts like they are. Is anyone seriously surprised and shocked that this would happen? In the South? That's unthinkable- prejudice against gays in the south by aggressive white males in a position of authority. I'll defend anyone innocent in principle, but if I were a betting woman I'd need at least 20:1 odds before I considered placing a bet on the Atlanta Georgia police being free from corrupt bigots. Maybe more, since 20:1 I'd have taken the OJ case.

But of course, for something to be true, it has to be in their mission statement. That's why the Republican party is actually for small government, because they say so. All organisations who oppress or discriminate have it in their charter- that's why an organisation can't be corrupt or composed of bigots without the organisation itself being officially a hate group. (This is also incidentally why war crimes cannot happen unless they are systematic of a failure in the entire military). Thanks for the clearup.

Incidentally you okayed the idea of throwing people to the ground and stealing their electronics as "standard procedure" in case people committing illegal acts called all their gay gangster friends to come kill the poor cops, back on page 1. Said Gay Mafia might look unkindly on people cutting into the valuable 'people being in their underwear' market, after all- it's second right after moonshine in profit margins!

But I'm sure I'm being emotional- there's probably nothing to this case, it's all a fabrication by the evil gays to smear some cops who didn't do anything wrong, and even if it was the cops' fault it's clearly just a few bad apples and not just a symptom of systematic discrimination and violence against gays officially and unofficially on a national level.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Yeah, whatever. Maybe I'm being emotional- or maybe I'm just looking at the facts like they are. Is anyone seriously surprised and shocked that this would happen? In the South? That's unthinkable- prejudice against gays in the south by aggressive white males in a position of authority. I'll defend anyone innocent in principle, but if I were a betting woman I'd need at least 20:1 odds before I considered placing a bet on the Atlanta Georgia police being free from corrupt bigots. Maybe more, since 20:1 I'd have taken the OJ case.

I do believe it is possible. However, the theme around here seems to be that the comments of the citizens are worth more than their weight in gold and the police report...well they shouldn't have even bothered because it's worth less than the paper they printed it on and this is all based on the history and not the actual history of the officers involved. That is wrong.

But of course, for something to be true, it has to be in their mission statement. That's why the Republican party is actually for small government, because they say so. All organisations who oppress or discriminate have it in their charter- that's why an organisation can't be corrupt or composed of bigots without the organisation itself being a hate group. Thanks for the clearup.

I didn't say that. I'm getting fed up with you putting words in my mouth. Stop being dishonest and address what I actually say.

Incidentally you okayed the idea of throwing people to the ground and stealing their electronics as "standard procedure" in case people committing illegal acts called all their gay gangster friends to come kill the poor cops, back on page 1.

Wrong, I OKed the ordering persons to the ground and seizing their phones for the duration of the investigation. The bottom line is when police are raiding any bar (especially bars where alcohol is served), even a homosexual bar, or serving a search warrant they don't know who is going to be in there and what they might be capable of. Police are not all knowing. If they were then you'd have a case against police following officer safety 101.

Your posts seem to imply that you think homosexuals are a peaceful minority group capable of no violent acts. Do you believe that homosexuals aren't capable of violent acts?

But I'm sure I'm being emotional- there's probably nothing to this case, it's all a fabrication by the evil gays to smear some cops who didn't do anything wrong, and even if it was the cops' fault it's clearly just a few bad apples and not just a symptom of systematic discrimination and violence against gays officially and unofficially on a national level.

In short you have no evidence to support your temper tantrum? Look at this quoted paragraph here. Did you offer anything of substance? Who said the gays were evil? Who said that if the cops were wrong then it still is the fault of the gays? Who said discrimination was OK? You're reading into something that is not there.

[Duckie]

Yeah, whatever. Maybe I'm being emotional- or maybe I'm just looking at the facts like they are. Is anyone seriously surprised and shocked that this would happen? In the South? That's unthinkable- prejudice against gays in the south by aggressive white males in a position of authority. I'll defend anyone innocent in principle, but if I were a betting woman I'd need at least 20:1 odds before I considered placing a bet on the Atlanta Georgia police being free from corrupt bigots. Maybe more, since 20:1 I'd have taken the OJ case.

I do believe it is possible. However, the theme around here seems to be that the comments of the citizens are worth more than their weight in gold and the police report...well they shouldn't have even bothered because it's worth less than the paper they printed it on and this is all based on the history and not the actual history of the officers involved. That is wrong.

This is true, and the investigation will show the truth- hopefully. Hopefully it'll be unbiased- after all, there are independent oversight committees divorced from policedom to prevent the Blue Wall and composed of non-locals that try these cases impartially for this very reason, eh?

But of course, for something to be true, it has to be in their mission statement. That's why the Republican party is actually for small government, because they say so. All organisations who oppress or discriminate have it in their charter- that's why an organisation can't be corrupt or composed of bigots without the organisation itself being a hate group. Thanks for the clearup.

I didn't say that. I'm getting fed up with you putting words in my mouth. Stop being dishonest and address what I actually say.

You said "OH NO YOU CALLED THE ATLANTA POLICE THE KKK"? And? What about it? Insulting a police department isn't insulting america, so you can continue blubbering all you want over how mean I am. If an organisation is made and staffed primarily of bigots, then it is one. Now, is the atlanta police department made of bigots? Who knows. It certainly could be. But you're the only one saying "It's impossible for the atlanta police department to be oppressive or discriminatory towards gays because they're the police and thus are on a different level from other organisations.", even if you won't come out and use those words.

Why should I judge one organisation different from another just because of their names? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Being Police doesn't make them immune to having a large staff of bigots, unless you think magic police shields caused the Birmingham Police Department to not be considered Part of the Problem (tm) in 1963. If things like this keep happening, especially in the South, as they do whether you want to ignore it or not, then explain to me why I shouldn't judge a police force by its officers*. (*This is not to say, even if every police force in the south is bigoted, that every officer is bigoted, in case you don't know logic 101. The Mormon and Catholic Churches are massively bigoted organisations, and also sexist. But there are a many non-homophobic, non-sexist mormons and catholics.)

Wrong, I OKed the ordering persons to the ground and seizing their phones for the duration of the investigation. The bottom line is when police are raiding any bar (especially bars where alcohol is served), even a homosexual bar, or serving a search warrant they don't know who is going to be in there and what they might be capable of. Police are not all knowing. If they were then you'd have a case against police following officer safety 101.

Your posts seem to imply that you think homosexuals are a peaceful minority group capable of no violent acts. Do you believe that homosexuals aren't capable of violent acts?

It's not even your fault that you're missing the point of the incident- I'll illustrate what's wrong with this discussion immediately.

I'm sure you'd react the same way if police barged into an inner city bar, threw the patrons to the ground, and stole their possessions if they were niggers, no? If officers were overheard saying "God damn I hate those niggers" that'd be hearsay and discounted, and if an organisation were shown to do this regularly it wouldn't be considered a bigoted organisation. That they had a flimsy or nonexistant justification for this would be ignored, because after all some of those niggers could have been criminals.

Incidentally you've been pretty uncomfortable with me saying that word over and over again in the above passage, no? People are taught from birth nowadays, and our entire culture reinforces that RACISM IS WRONG, in big capital letters branded into one's brain.

You probably aren't prejudiced against Gays but you're not submerged in antihomophobia culturally. Nobody is, in America. For example, how does the mental impact of the word 'faggot' match with 'nigger'? Does someone saying 'nigger' as an insult shock you to the core and make you stop dead when you hear it? Faggot too? Which would you rather say in public? Why? Even I can't lie and say that I view oppression of gays with the same instinctive horror as I do anti-black racism.

The modern Gay Civil Rights Movement, abortive as it is, hasn't achieved cultural watershed status yet and as such there's no way a person would react to anti-gay bigotry in the same way as sexism or racism on an instinctive level. And that's why they're gone after, incidentally. They're an easy target. Even white supremacists have to moderate their speech nowadays. Maybe someday it'll be like that for homophobes too.

Once you can approach this story like someone seeing this happen to blacks on a subconscious level, then you'll be seeing it from the correct point of view.

But I'm sure I'm being emotional- there's probably nothing to this case, it's all a fabrication by the evil gays to smear some cops who didn't do anything wrong, and even if it was the cops' fault it's clearly just a few bad apples and not just a symptom of systematic discrimination and violence against gays officially and unofficially on a national level.

In short you have no evidence to support your temper tantrum? Look at this quoted paragraph here. Did you offer anything of substance? Who said the gays were evil? Who said that if the cops were wrong then it still is the fault of the gays? Who said discrimination was OK? You're reading into something that is not there.

[/quote]

Personally I'd call some people who fake a civil rights abuse to smear an officer evil, or at minimum a jerk, but you're simply overspecifying rather than reading the meaning of the sentence. Simply put, my point is you're using the Guantanamo Defense for the Atlanta Police- that even if these officers did it's their personal failing and not the fault of the organisation- and note, I mean the Atlanta PD, not the entire US Police Force, so you don't need to gallantly white knight for Utah now.

Further, just because nobody says it's okay doesn't mean it still happens, unless you think with the passage of Womens' Suffrage and the Civil Rights Movement sexism and racism went away. Just because it's not kosher to talk down to women any more (much) doesn't mean women have stopped making less pay than men. Just because it's no longer okay to say Nigger and blacks can vote doesn't mean that blacks are no longer trapped in poverty and that white privelidge has gone away. Just because it's not kosher to be homophobic doesn't mean systematic discrimination by western society against gays and lesbians has ended. Except that it's still kosher to be homophobic in most places, which is why discrimination against gays can be official as well as cultural.

[Duckie]

Ghetto Edit to 3rd paragraph- It's not about whether minorities are criminals or the arrests have charges behind them that are real. It's about that they're minorities being specifically targeted by the police- even if "Driving While Black" convictions pick up a lot of criminals, it's still wrong and anyone can tell you that stopping a man just because he's black because he might be a criminal is obviously not kosher.

[Kamakazie Sith]

This is true, and the investigation will show it. Hopefully it'll be unbiased- after all, there are independent oversight committees divorced from policedom to prevent the Blue Wall and composed of non-locals that try these cases impartially for this very reason, eh?

I'm not sure if Atlanta has a independent oversight committee. Though if they do you have to wonder about their integrity if it's composed of people from the same area, right?

You said "OH NO YOU CALLED THE ATLANTA POLICE THE KKK"? And? What about it?

It has nothing to do with your insult. It has everything to do with using your insult to justify your implication that the police are wrong simply because they are dealing with a minority group and that group is complaining.

Insulting a police department isn't insulting america,

Where are you getting this shit?

so you can continue blubbering all you want over how mean I am.

It's your substance not the style that I have issue with.

If an organisation is made and staffed primarily of bigots, then it is one. Now, is the atlanta police department made of bigots? Who knows. It certainly could be. But you're the only one saying "It's impossible for the atlanta police department to be oppressive or discriminatory towards gays because they're the police and thus are on a different level from other organisations.", even if you won't come out and use those words.

You suck at reading in between the lines. Not once have I said anything that even resembles what you think I said. Furthermore, I've said exactly the opposite and in a post to you I even acknowledge the possibility that this action was bias...but you continue to be selective in what you read. It's tiresome. Grow up and discuss this like an adult who is capable of controlling their emotions.

Why should I judge one organisation different from another just because of their names? If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Being Police doesn't make them immune to having a large staff of bigots, unless you think magic police shields caused the Birmingham Police Department to not be considered Part of the Problem (tm) in 1963. If things like this keep happening, especially in the South, as they do whether you want to ignore it or not, then explain to me why I shouldn't judge a police force by its officers.

Nobody said it made them immuned. Who the fuck are you arguing with? This all began because I DARE require evidence for claims made against police officers. That is the post that you responded to and completely took out of context and are continuing to do so because you can't control your emotions.

I'm sure you'd react the same way if police barged into an inner city bar, threw the patrons to the ground, and stole their possessions if they were black, no? If officers were overheard saying "God damn I hate those niggers" that'd be hearsay and discounted, and if an organisation were shown to do this regularly it wouldn't be considered a bigoted organisation.

If that happened that is wrong. I don't know how many fucking times I have to say it in this thread. Perhaps you should read the start again and this time without preconceptions about what kind of person you think I am.

But civil rights abuses are okay if they're gay,

Again, nobody said that. You are being a dishonest fucker.

and it's not even your fault that you're missing the point of the incident- it's something that hasn't sunk into the American consciousness: that gays are a class of people who shouldn't be oppressed. You can claim that's not true and that you're cognizant of it, and you are, but you're not submerged in it culturally. Tell me, how does the mental impact of the word 'faggot' match with 'nigger'? Does someone saying 'nigger' as an insult shock you to the core and make you stop dead when you hear it? Faggot too? Which would you rather say in public? Why? Even I can't lie and say that I view oppression of gays with the same instinctive horror as I do anti-black racism.

Both offend me greatly. This paragraph is littered with your preconceptions about me, and it is becoming clear why you are making your one line comments "evil gays", "insulting america" stupid shit like that. You are not addressing what I am actually saying.

The modern Gay Civil Rights Movement, abortive as it is, hasn't achieved cultural watershed status yet and as such there's no way a person would react to anti-gay bigotry in the same way as sexism or racism on an instinctive level. And that's why they're gone after, incidentally. They're an easy target. Even white supremacists have to moderate their speech nowadays. Maybe someday it'll be like that for homophobes too.

I agree, but don't throw me into that group of people. Bigotted remarks against homosexuals make me very angry.

Personally I'd call some people who fake a civil rights abuse to smear an officer evil, or at minimum a jerk, but you're simply overspecifying rather than reading the meaning of the sentence. Simply put, my point is you're using the Guantanamo Defense for the Atlanta Police- that even if these officers did it's their personal failing and not the fault of the organisation- and note, I mean the Atlanta PD, not the entire US Police Force, so you don't need to gallantly white knight for Utah now.

You see I'd call anyone who fabricates a lie that could result in jail time or employment termination...something a lot worse than a jerk. It's more than a smear. When it goes the full distance then someones life is changed forever.

I never used that defense. What the fuck are you talking about? If these officers did do the things the article stated that they did they deserve to lose their jobs and never be police officers again and some deserve to spend time in jail for excessive force.

Also, you were the one who attempted to bring my location into this discussion. I'd never defend Utah law enforcement because it isn't up to my standards. The department I work for, however, is far above par as far as Utah law enforcement is concerned. For example, sexual orientation is a protected class with my department and we have several openly homosexual officers.

Further, just because nobody says it's okay doesn't mean it still happens, unless you think with the passage of Womens' Suffrage and the Civil Rights Movement sexism and racism went away. Just because it's not kosher to talk down to women any more (much) doesn't mean women have stopped making less pay than men. Just because it's no longer okay to say Nigger and blacks can vote doesn't mean that blacks are no longer trapped in poverty and that white privelidge has gone away. Just because it's not kosher to be homophobic doesn't mean systematic discrimination by western society against gays and lesbians has ended. Except that it's still kosher to be homophobic in most places, which is why discrimination against gays can be official as well as cultural.

It's amusing that you think I might believe that racism and sexism do not exist just because I require evidence to support this article and I don't take it at face value.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Ghetto Edit to 3rd paragraph- It's not about whether minorities are criminals or the arrests have charges behind them that are real. It's about that they're minorities being specifically targeted by the police- even if "Driving While Black" convictions pick up a lot of criminals, it's still wrong and anyone can tell you that stopping a man just because he's black because he might be a criminal is obviously not kosher.

Absolutely. So, instead of preaching. Why don't you go out and dig up some figures if you can. See, if Atlanta PD VICE conducts raids against heterosexual bars as often as they do homosexual bars.

[Alyrium Denryle]

On the other side you've obviously been the victim of harassment from intolerant law enforcement officers and therefore, you don't trust cops. That's fine and I don't blame you.

It depends on where I am. I have family in the Salt Lake PD (Dont know if you know them, but Scott Stuck is my cousin and Maril Stuck is my uncle). I have never had issues with that police force and despite the Mormons I dont feel like I have to worry about my safety when I visit Salt Lake.

In Mesa Arizona... keep them the fuck away from me. I had a friend who was murdered there and the cops whitewashed it as a suicide. Before you say anything, the method of death there is a pretty classic execution and was pretty hard to pull off on your own... Strapped to a chair and asphyxiated with a bag from what I remember. Though to be fair I cant confirm that and it was a decade ago. More recently the entire county is one huge Human Rights violation, and the Tempe/ASU cops routinely whitewash sexual assaults and dismiss rape cases for lack of evidence on a frat presidents say so.

So it is a mixed bag.

As for Georgia, it is the deep south. I dont trust the deep south as far as I can walk without seeing a confederate battle flag. Which isnt far.

I'm not sure if Atlanta has a independent oversight committee. Though if they do you have to wonder about their integrity if it's composed of people from the same area, right?

It is georgia. The only state worse is Alabama where the judges care more about heaping scorn on homosexuals than punishing the people who murder them.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Here's a clarification of my position. Things tend to become unclear during the course of a heated debate as subtopics are dealt with.

I do consider the events that are said to have happened in the article very possible. However, I also consider the events that are said to have happened in the police report very possible. Until evidence is made available I will stay in this position. There's also the possibility of issues not covered by the article like bias profiling of homosexuals, but while I think that is also possible I still require evidence.

[Master of Ossus]

I don't know, not having been there and not seeing all the facts, what role homosexuality played, but I think it's fair to say:

1. Any of us would be pretty angry;
2. The Atlanta police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own bar; and,
3. There's a long history in this country of gays and lesbians being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately.

[Duckie]

Fine, conceded. I'm probably overreacting to any percieved defense of the actions in the OP because I'm angry and unable to argue logically in a subject like this due to personal investment- although I'm not going to claim that it's inherently impossible for a person who doesn't have to worry about these things to understand my basis, I'd like to note that perhaps the gap in views is insurmountable, and would like to bow out lest I continue making a fool of myself. I won't argue further especially since Master of Ossus has made a fine post saying what's what in a better way than I could.

With that said, I'd like to note the 3rd paragraph in the previous post was not a 'you' targeted at an individual but at the reader (who by nature is plural), and of course can be inaccurate for a single person (since culture is an average of all individuals) or for a single location (I haven't been to every location in the united states and so cannot ascertain if what one could call "Straight Privelidge" exists in every single location). However, for the generic entity known as the United States, my point on the acceptability of homophobia and the lack of recoil the average person has from it compared to other types of bigoted speech such as racism I think is an important fact to observe when considering civil rights abuses of gays by authorities and hate crimes by individuals alike, although perhaps irrelated to this thread and somewhat crammed in here.

[Gil Hamilton]

Historically speaking. However, unless I'm mistaken most states have fixed that problem. Everything must be defined. Thus, sexual acts is probably defined. Also, I have to remind you that the police report clearly documents sexual acts.

You are mistaken. Just about every harrassment raid a police department has ever launched against a gay bar/night club/et cetera has been under legal pretenses, like doing a license check or scouting for "prostitutes" or Vice Squad activity which still exist in many states. This is NOT something most states have fixed. Or do you think they occur because some police officers decided to whip some homo ass and didn't have a "legal" reason posted?

Further, I'm sure the police reports did document sexual acts. Alot of the harrassment raids in history against gay bars/clubs do. What constitutes a "sexual act" is typically vastly inflated or made up. After all, two men dancing has often lead to them both being arrested for "sexual acts" in these sorts of raids. I'm sure that police report just had dudes screwin' all OVER the place.

What was described in Atlanta is downright classic of a harrassment raid. It entirely fits the pattern of law enforcement behavior against the gay community since there was a modern gay community.

[Kamakazie Sith]

It depends on where I am. I have family in the Salt Lake PD (Dont know if you know them, but Scott Stuck is my cousin and Maril Stuck is my uncle). I have never had issues with that police force and despite the Mormons I dont feel like I have to worry about my safety when I visit Salt Lake.

In Mesa Arizona... keep them the fuck away from me. I had a friend who was murdered there and the cops whitewashed it as a suicide. Before you say anything, the method of death there is a pretty classic execution and was pretty hard to pull off on your own... Strapped to a chair and asphyxiated with a bag from what I remember. Though to be fair I cant confirm that and it was a decade ago. More recently the entire county is one huge Human Rights violation, and the Tempe/ASU cops routinely whitewash sexual assaults and dismiss rape cases for lack of evidence on a frat presidents say so.

So it is a mixed bag.

I actually applied with Mesa PD and was accepted but turned it down, and I'm glad I did for numerous reasons and now I can add this to the list.

As for Georgia, it is the deep south. I dont trust the deep south as far as I can walk without seeing a confederate battle flag. Which isnt far.

It is georgia. The only state worse is Alabama where the judges care more about heaping scorn on homosexuals than punishing the people who murder them.

I don't exactly have a lot of love for the south. In fact, I despise them.

[Kamakazie Sith]

I don't know, not having been there and not seeing all the facts, what role homosexuality played, but I think it's fair to say:

1. Any of us would be pretty angry;
2. The Atlanta police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own bar; and,
3. There's a long history in this country of gays and lesbians being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately.

I agree. That would suck to be having a good time and then get caught up in a police raid and put nose to ground. While I partially agree with #2 because really what harm were they causing? It sounds like all the undercover police found was sexual acts occurring inside the establishment. However, at the same time what they were doing is illegal and I disagree that the police acted stupidly by enforcing the law...if that's what you meant. If you mean the actions alleged in the OP then yeah not just stupidly but criminally.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Fine, conceded. I'm probably overreacting to any percieved defense of the actions in the OP because I'm angry and unable to argue logically in a subject like this due to personal investment- although I'm not going to claim that it's inherently impossible for a person who doesn't have to worry about these things to understand my basis, I'd like to note that perhaps the gap in views is insurmountable, and would like to bow out lest I continue making a fool of myself. I won't argue further especially since Master of Ossus has made a fine post saying what's what in a better way than I could.

With that said, I'd like to note the 3rd paragraph in the previous post was not a 'you' targeted at an individual but at the reader (who by nature is plural), and of course can be inaccurate for a single person (since culture is an average of all individuals) or for a single location (I haven't been to every location in the united states and so cannot ascertain if what one could call "Straight Privelidge" exists in every single location). However, for the generic entity known as the United States, my point on the acceptability of homophobia and the lack of recoil the average person has from it compared to other types of bigoted speech such as racism I think is an important fact to observe when considering civil rights abuses of gays by authorities and hate crimes by individuals alike, although perhaps irrelated to this thread and somewhat crammed in here.

I welcome your input Duckie. Just cool down...I'm not the enemy.

[Kamakazie Sith]

You are mistaken. Just about every harrassment raid a police department has ever launched against a gay bar/night club/et cetera has been under legal pretenses, like doing a license check or scouting for "prostitutes" or Vice Squad activity which still exist in many states. This is NOT something most states have fixed. Or do you think they occur because some police officers decided to whip some homo ass and didn't have a "legal" reason posted?

My bad for poorly wording my statement, and I'm well aware that bigotry is far from dead in this country. What I mean was fixed is the definitions are clearly defined so you can't charge someone with an illegal sexual act if they were holding hands. Though, you're absolutely right an officer could lie about his/her observations.

Further, I'm sure the police reports did document sexual acts. Alot of the harrassment raids in history against gay bars/clubs do. What constitutes a "sexual act" is typically vastly inflated or made up. After all, two men dancing has often lead to them both being arrested for "sexual acts" in these sorts of raids. I'm sure that police report just had dudes screwin' all OVER the place.

Yes, the report is full of observations of actual sexual acts and not just dancing. Further, if you look at the charges the owner was charged with operating an adult entertainment business without a license. In other words you have naked male strippers dancing then that is a violation of that ordinance.

What was described in Atlanta is downright classic of a harrassment raid. It entirely fits the pattern of law enforcement behavior against the gay community since there was a modern gay community.

What was described in Atlanta is a classic example of any police raid. When the police raid places guns are drawn, people get taken to the ground, and everyone is put on lock down for the duration of the investigation. As I discussed earlier there are good reasons for this approach.

So, while it does fit the pattern of harassment it also fits the pattern of a standard raid against (fill in the blank). So, that's why I leave it up to the evidence which has always been my policy.

[whackadoodle]

Warning: Infodump. Those with tldritis please look away. All bolding mine.

ATLANTA POLICE EXPLAIN IN DETAIL WHY THEY RAIDED THE EAGLE BAR

At least one of the complaints that prompted a recent controversial raid of a gay bar on Ponce de Leon Avenue may have come from the bar’s own patrons according to documents provided by the Atlanta Police Department.

“This operation was in response to complaints coming from patrons that expressed concerns about being solicited by other club patrons as it pertained to illegal sex acts,” reads a report filed by an officer with the APD in connection with the Sept. 10 raid of the Atlanta Eagle, a gay leather bar.

Chief Richard Pennington said at a press conference this afternoon that one of the tips that prompted the investigation was submitted to Mayor Shirley Franklin’s office.

Two such tips were included in a packet provided to reporters. One, which may have been from a patron, informed Crime Stoppers Atlanta of a planned “Bear Fest” ( “bear” is the term sometimes used to describe hirsute, masculine gay men) at the Atlanta Eagle where sex would be permitted. Another, submitted to the mayor’s office, reported sex acts within the club and bags with “what appears to be drug residue” littering the neighborhood near the bar.

According to undercover officers’ reports made public by the APD at the press conference this afternoon, the tips, which listed sex as one of the offenses going on at the establishment, were justified.

The reports (Incident # 091420033-00) include the following observations.

--On May 21, after observing men wearing only G-strings dancing on the bar, one officer then “heard someone say the show was starting in the back room. I then went to the back room where I observed one male performing anal sex on another male and he was performing oral sex on a third male. While this was happening several other males stood around and watched, several of them had their penises out and were masturbating.”

--Another officer reported that on the same night, May 21, he was approached by another patron who told him “on Thursday nights in the rear of the location a large group of patrons gather to participate/watch lewd sex acts between other patrons during club hours and in an area which is open to the general patron inside the club.”

--One officer complained that the lighting made him “unable to see any sex acts,” but he added that while standing in the room a patron began to engage him in conversation. “When he walked away he grabbed me on the groin and said he would see me later. That same subject was not seen later in the night.”

--“This location is not licensed as an adult entertainment club but is acting in the capacity of a strip club,” reported another officer who observed a “dancer” on Sept. 10 pulling “the front of his panties down and exposing himself” to a patron who was rubbing the dancer’s crotch.

--Also on Sept. 10, an officer reported “I walked to the rear room in the club and witnessed several men receiving and giving oral sex.”

--Another officer reported that a man had his pants down in a backroom and was being caressed by another participant while several people watched and rubbed themselves. The officer reported that a patron “caressed” the officer’s chest and stomach and told him he was sexy before grabbing his crotch. Later, someone else grabbed the officer’s buttocks.

Ten complaints have been filed with the Atlanta Police Department’s Office of Professional Standards regarding the conduct of officers involved in the raid.The complaints, according to sources who have contacted the Sunday Paper, allege the officers made anti-gay comments.

Earlier reports claimed patrons were handcuffed, but one of the officers reported that during the raid, “The bartenders, dancers, doorman, and the owner were the only ones placed in handcuffs.”

Pennington says the APD’s Office of Professional Standards has not yet questioned the officers involved in the raid, but all of them will be interviewed and their conduct investigated to determine whether allegations of misconduct are justified.

“We will be investigating all of them,” Pennington said.

There were nine undercover and 12 uniformed police officers at the raid.

Sgt. Scott Kreher, president of the local chapter of the International Brotherhood of Police Officers, says based on the reports submitted by undercover cops since May, the raid of the Eagle was justified. Anti-gay comments, however, if they were made, were not.

“The officers will be investigated and if they made those comments, they will be dealt with,” says Kreher, adding that if the OPS investigation results in a sustained finding of violation of any work rule, the officers involved will be disciplined according to the progressive disciplinary process set forth by the city.

The progressive disciplinary process makes violations and punishments cumulative; in other words, a first time offender would be handled more leniently than would an officer who has a track record of offenses.

And

SUSPICIONS, POLITICS SURROUND ATLANTA POLICE RAID OF GAY BAR

SUSPICIONS, POLITICS SURROUND ATLANTA POLICE RAID OF GAY BAR

Sorry, but no.

The raid on the Atlanta Eagle, the gay “leather” bar at 306 Ponce de Leon, on Sept. 10 was not “like Stonewall before the riots.”

That quote comes second-hand from a customer at the Eagle via co-owner Richard Ramey.

“I'll be honest I wasn't there and I don't really know how to explain it, but one customer said it was like Stonewall before the riots," Ramey told Southern Voice, the gay community’s leading newspaper, shortly after the Atlanta Police Department searched the bar and arrested eight employees reportedly in connection with exotic dancing without a permit.

(UPDATED 10:15 P.M.: I've verified with sources who spoke to me on condition of anonymity that the APD's plainclothes investigation of the Eagle had been ongoing since May. There was no warrant because officers can quite legally execute a raid based on the eyewitness accounts of undercover cops. This makes it seem very likely that something was indeed going on that shouldn't have been, but it may have been simply the exotic dancing without a permit, a fairly innocuous charge that is frequently levelled at straight clubs, too.)

That kind of second- and third-hand information characterizes much of what those of us who were not there know about what happened, and even among those who were, there is disagreement. Some patrons told SoVo that they heard officers casually making anti-gay statements that could be construed as hate speech while they, the patrons, were handcuffed and made to lie face down on the floor.

Yet, patrons told the Atlanta Journal-Constitution they heard no such comments. And the statement released by the APD has done absolutely nothing to dispel suspicion surrounding the event.

Hyperbola. Contradiction. Suspicion. All of these reign in the absence of facts.

I have an open records request filed with the APD and as soon as I can see a copy of the arrest reports, I’ll know a whole lot more than I do now. There are some things, however, that we can clear up right out of the gate: First, this was no Stonewall.

Stonewall involved patrons rioting in response to many years of continuous harassment by the police. Being at a gay club before Stonewall meant risking arrest just for being there.

I don’t mean to diminish the fear and suffering of those who were handcuffed and made to lie on the floor at the Eagle, but let’s be clear-headed enough to keep things in perspective. I cannot say with authority that gay clubs and bars in Atlanta are scrutinized anymore by the police than straight clubs and bars. It would be hard to imagine that they are because straight clubs and bars in Atlanta certainly get their share of attention from the cops. I’ll venture that bars and clubs in general are cop magnets in Atlanta.

As for the handcuffs and the being made to lie down on the floor, that is simply how raids are conducted to ensure the safety of the officers. When police are overwhelmingly outnumbered by patrons/suspects their best course is complete control, hence the cuffs and the floor. It’s terrifying and humiliating, and it probably comes as no comfort to anyone who has experienced it to know that it is entirely impersonal.

Regarding the anti-gay comments: If they happened they are completely reprehensible. Such mouthing off is at best unprofessional and at worst a form of sadistic hatefulness. Why would an officer need to indulge in that kind of talk when the suspects are already trussed up and face down?

“If those comments were made, then the individuals who made them need to come forward,” says Sgt. Scott Kreher, president of the local chapter of the International Brotherhood of Police Officers. They need to come forward and apologize, for the good of the department, their fellow cops, and the community at large. So far, no one has filed an official complaint about the officers’ conduct with the APD’s Office of Professional Standards.

But the thing that should concern us most, and which will, I hope, be made clear by a review of the arrest reports, is how this raid came to be in the first place. Was the raid justified? Or was it based on a flimsy tip from someone who had it in for the bar? The tip called into Crimestoppers alleged solicitation of sex was being carried on inside and outside the bar.

(Has anyone ever been in a bar where there wasn’t solicitation of sex?)

Gay community blogs are alive with speculation that Peggy Denby might have had a hand in the tip that led to the raid. Denby is executive director of Keep Atlanta Beautiful (the same organization, coincidentally, for which Aaron Turpeau, purveyor of the now-infamous “black mayor memo,” serves as president of the board). She is also active in Campaign for Atlanta. Her detractors on the comments sections, at least, say she is a “busybody” who targets clubs for closure, especially gay clubs.

As evidence of this, they cite a December 2008 article in Southern Voice which read, “Midtown Ponce Security Alliance President Peggy Denby told alliance members at a Dec. 8 MPSA meeting that Bulldogs and Club 708 are primarily responsible for the abundance of prostitutes in the area south of 10th Street near I-75,” and quoted Denby: “I believe that Bulldogs keeps the male hustler thing going, and there may be other places, I don’t know.”

The article also quoted Denby as saying “Because of those two clubs, they come from all over the United States to be here. They are just a huge magnet. … I’m telling that any night of the week you can just go down there and see parades of them.”

I’ve met Denby and talked with her a few times. I think she takes her role at Keep Atlanta Beautiful very seriously and I think it’s clear that her vision for what Midtown should be differs dramatically from that held by some of the area’s residents.

ADDED 7:38 A.M. SEPT. 14: PLEASE SEE LETTER FROM MIDTOWN PONCE SECURE ALLIANCE IN COMMENTS SECTION BELOW

No one is particularly happy with prostitution happening on their street, but some Midtowners knew about the neighborhood’s nightlife when they moved there and accepted it, or even embraced it. If they’d wanted to live in a squeaky-clean suburb, they probably would not have moved to Midtown.

THIS PARAGRAPH ADDED AT 3:10 p.m.: "What is really ironic is that it was gays and lesbians who pioneered the renaissance of Midtown," says Kyle Keyser, founder of Atlantans Together Against Crime. Keyser, who is gay, is running for mayor.

Certainly, a line should be drawn. A neighborhood can’t allow crime and remain a safe, desirable place to live. But, there is crime prevention and then there is scorched-earth: one preserves and protects, the other destroys in an effort to starve out an enemy. The political factions of Midtown need to come clean about which method they are pursuing.

Before everyone goes any further down the "Arrrg! Atlanta cops are all bigots" road, keep in mind that a mayoral campaign is getting into full swing here, and one of the candidates is running on the "friend of police, clean up this city" ticket.