Police Arrest Student in School Attack (Germany)

[[R_H]]

Spiegel.de

Police in the German state of Bavaria stopped a student armed with an ax and Molotov cocktails from killing others at a school in Ansbach on Thursday. Two youths were seriously injured in the incident.

An 18-year-old in the southern German state of Bavaria stormed a school on Thursday morning in the town of Ansbach with an ax and two knives. He then threw Molotov cocktails and injured a teacher and eight students, two of them seriously. Police were able to stop the student after the 10-minute episode, but only after firing several shots.

The crime occurred Thursday at around 8:35 a.m., when the student allegedly stormed his school, the Carolinum college preparatory high school in Ansbach in northern Bavaria's Franconia region. Police said he seriously injured two students and injured another six students and one teacher after throwing two Molotov cocktails into an eighth-grade classroom.
Police were able to stop the youth around 8:45 a.m. SPIEGEL ONLINE has learned that police fired several shots at the youth, seriously injuring him, before they were able to make an arrest. An ambulance helicopter took the 18-year-old to a nearby hospital.

Police hermetically sealed the school's surroundings on Thursday. And although they assume the attacks were perpetrated by a single individual, they also searched the campus for other possible collaborators. "Everyone is now safe," a police spokesperson said, adding there is no evidence that anyone helped the attacker. The local public prosecutor has since filed an arrest warrant against the young man for attempted murder.

'This Terrible Crime Saddens Me'

Bavarian Justice Minister Beate Merk of the conservative Christian Social Union reacted in shock to Thursday's school attack. "This terrible crime deeply saddens me," she said. "I am especially concerned about the injured students." She also called for psychologists to be deployed to provide support to traumatized students. "The injured as well as their fellow students and teachers need the offer of competent psychological help as quickly as possible in order to prevent sustained trauma," she said.

The attack was the second to take place at a German school in less than a year. In March, a former student went on a shooting spree in the town of Winnenden, near Stuttgart, killing 15 people before turning his gun on to himself.

In the evening news they mentioned that like Tim K, he was inconspicuous and a loner. His computer has been seized, and the authorities found suicides notes and a calendar with "Armageddon"/"Doomsday" marked on the day of the attack.

[Bluewolf]

Yet another crazy. What a shame. Luckily the police stopped this guy before anyone was hurt. Still pretty crazy, just the set up for another school killing. I hope they give him serious help.

[salm]

This is an interesting case because the guy survived. Has it ever happened that a school shooter survived to be questioned by the police and a brigade of shrinks?

[Solauren]

This is an interesting case because the guy survived. Has it ever happened that a school shooter survived to be questioned by the police and a brigade of shrinks?

Not that I can recall off-hand.

However, I wouldn't say 'never happened' on the idea.

(Edit)
Ah, here we go.

Article on Wikipedia

It seems there have been instances, both pre (foiled) and post attack of the nut-bars being apprehended and questioned.

[[R_H]]

Yet another crazy. What a shame. Luckily the police stopped this guy before anyone was hurt. Still pretty crazy, just the set up for another school killing. I hope they give him serious help.

Er, there were injured peple. Second line of the second paragraph. The guy was also injured (he was taken to the hospital by helicopter)

This is an interesting case because the guy survived. Has it ever happened that a school shooter survived to be questioned by the police and a brigade of shrinks?

And they have Tim K.'s brain too.

[Bluewolf]

Ack sorry to misread it. But still, it could of been a lot worse, a lot lot worse.

[Serafina]

Hm - unless i miss something, this is a pretty good argument for gun control.

After all, had he had a gun, way more people would be dead (instead of injured) and he propably dead.

[[R_H]]

Hm - unless i miss something, this is a pretty good argument for gun control.

After all, had he had a gun, way more people would be dead (instead of injured) and he propably dead.

There have been Amokläufe in Japan and China were a bunch of people were killed with knives, and there was an attack in Japan where (15?) people died after their hotel was set on fire by a nutter with a Molotov.

Do German schools practice doing lock downs?

[salm]

Hm - unless i miss something, this is a pretty good argument for gun control.

After all, had he had a gun, way more people would be dead (instead of injured) and he propably dead.

There have been Amokläufe in Japan and China were a bunch of people were killed with knives, and there was an attack in Japan where (15?) people died after their hotel was set on fire by a nutter with a Molotov.

Do German schools practice doing lock downs?

Not sure how they practice this sort of thing but a while back i read that they´ve got some sort of amok training. In this case, though, a lock down could have been very problematic since the guy set the building on fire. They decided that it´s more important to get the people out of the building because of the fire and risking the guy killing people than risking people trapped in a burning building.

[[R_H]]

Not sure how they practice this sort of thing but a while back i read that they´ve got some sort of amok training. In this case, though, a lock down could have been very problematic since the guy set the building on fire. They decided that it´s more important to get the people out of the building because of the fire and risking the guy killing people than risking people trapped in a burning building.

Yeah it would have been more problematic, especially if fire is being used as a weapon. If I remember correctly, the Virginia Tech shooter had chained off a fire exit and was going to start a fire.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

Lock-downs are the height of obscene foolishness; you're always going to have a better chance of surviving when moving as rapidly as possible. Evacuation and dispersion is the combination which should always be used and people instituting and participating in lockdowns should be punished for more or less criminal idiocy, I think they stem from a complete timidity. The policy of lockdowns directly contributed to the death toll at Virginia Tech because when you have a dedicated, intelligent murderer like that, you're concentrating targets in a place where even poorly aimed bullets have little possibility of missing.

Or god forbid more than one trained killer like Beslan. They could go room to room with satchel charges, kicking in the door and tossing in an IED filled with shrapnel into each room in turn, kill a hundred children in a couple of minutes. That's basically what happened at Beslan, and the ferocity of the assault essentially shocked the survivors into surrendering/being taken prisoner with further suicide bombers on hand.

Yes, some people will certainly get shot running, but the basic principle that the faster you go the less likely you're to get hit remains true. And if it is a breakdown in order, well, it just makes cleaning up slightly harder but at least that keeps children alive. The arguments for lockdowns remind me in some ways of the arguments for having the poor green bastards at the Somme advance at a steady walking pace, all about keeping control over people and nothing about how it lines them up as tenpins for the slaughter. In the same way schools might be proud of their lockdown procedures for making everything nice and orderly and accountable, but in reality it's just like lining the airplanes up wingtip to wingtip at Pearl Harbour to prevent sabotage: Neatly organizing everyone in the school to be mercilessly butchered.

It's unlikely we'll ever again have a 9/11 magnitude terrorist attack in the west, but schools make nice targets for the shock value and al-Qaeda isn't the only organization out there willing to kill kids. And then there's been conspiracies of up to around a half dozen kids in these orgies of murder before, though they've all be caught. But even imagine Virginia Tech with a second guy, and they both have SKS's or semi-auto shotguns and IEDs instead of one guy with a pistol. That one is, as we know, thoroughly plausible, just a bit more intelligent and prepared versions of the Columbine shooters, and that would have resulted in an astronomically higher death toll in any scenario except one in which the response to a shooter on campus is immediate evacuation and dispersion.

[Bluewolf]

To be honest Zeon, the majority of school shootouts are done by crazy lone kids or sometimes two. Explosives are rarely used. What is the point of training for something that has a slim chance of happening anyway, even slimmer than a standard school shootout? On top of that, what makes you think ANY drill would work in a terrorist attack? What will make you think some wont run, break the drill or surrender? Some would rather be a hostage than risk death itself. This goes for any "run away" drill really. There is a high chance some students WONT run and therefore any hostage taker has a nice target.

[Death from the Sea]

To be honest Zeon, the majority of school shootouts are done by crazy lone kids or sometimes two. Explosives are rarely used. What is the point of training for something that has a slim chance of happening anyway, even slimmer than a standard school shootout? On top of that, what makes you think ANY drill would work in a terrorist attack? What will make you think some wont run, break the drill or surrender? Some would rather be a hostage than risk death itself. This goes for any "run away" drill really. There is a high chance some students WONT run and therefore any hostage taker has a nice target.

true some may not follow the plan and run, but having a few stragglers killed or taken sure as hostage is better than classrooms full of sheeple waiting to be murdered as the killer goes room to room.

not only does it (fleeing the building) make you a harder target to find and shoot, you are also running towards help and protection (the police that should be arriving to stop the shooter).

don't be a sheeple, be a survivor.

[Bluewolf]

Fair point. I just don't think it would be as effective as some would think. Though where would they run to? Would they use the Fire escapes? Windows etc? What if they were on a higher story and the shooter was nearby? Even a rushing crowd of students could be slaughtered by one person. I know it's better than waiting to die, it's just that running could also end in disaster.

[Eleas]

Fair point. I just don't think it would be as effective as some would think. Though where would they run to? Would they use the Fire escapes? Windows etc? What if they were on a higher story and the shooter was nearby? Even a rushing crowd of students could be slaughtered by one person. I know it's better than waiting to die, it's just that running could also end in disaster.

The point is to employ a set of emergency plans that have the potential to save the most lives in any given situation. A lockdown system naturally favours the few over the many and the aggressive over the passive (as methodical aggressors are more likely to find and exploit solitary flaws in such a system), which means having the system may actually be worse than not having it.

[Thanas]

A lockdown is not used in German schools. What is used is closing all the doors and escaping through the windows if on Ground level. The ones higher up I have no idea, I only know that schools are required to provide at least two escape windows in any classroom.

The drawback to this system is of course that there are pre-determined rally points and since schools conduct several drills per year, these would be opportunities for further slaughter. However, since police is also racing to those points, the possibilities for further bloodshed are much reduced.

[The Duchess of Zeon]

About the only situation in which a lockdown would save lives would be where there's enough warning that the majority of the student body can be secured within a couple of minutes (literally, a couple of minutes), and the attacker literally didn't have the strength/equipment to do forced entries of standard building doors. In a case like that a failure to lockdown might cause one or two deaths, but in a case with a highly dedicated attacker, like the Virginia tech level, which was just one guy with some pretty crappy firearms, that same lockdown will claim easily twenty lives by, as said individual did, facilitating his coming back again and again to methodically butcher the trapped students. And two hundred lives might be more accurate if you have two or three disciplined and well-equipped individuals. And that number has succeeded in executing such an attack together, even as disaffected teenagers. And semi-automatic rifles or shotguns and the building blocks for improvised explosives are easily available in most countries of the world. And even when there's not enough warning, a lockdown will probably just save no lives, the disaffected shooter will fire a couple rounds into the unprepared students, kill a couple, and probably be done / be attacked and subdued at that point, making the lockdown pointless.

Like Eleas said, it's a strategy that, in some situations only, may save a couple students, but in most other situations will have no effect whatsoever or will outright put dozens or hundreds more in risk of being killed as the magnitude of the attack increases.

[Bluewolf]

Fair enough. I see the value in saving at least some lives.

How fast can police tend to scramble in these situations? I suppose it would be fast but that is another factor in it as if the police arrive fast than running away from a shooter may result in less deaths due to the police giving the hypothetical attacker less time to gun down the students.

[salm]

A lockdown is not used in German schools. What is used is closing all the doors and escaping through the windows if on Ground level. The ones higher up I have no idea, I only know that schools are required to provide at least two escape windows in any classroom.

Maybe there´s a language barrier, but what´s the difference between closing the doors and a lock down?

[Thanas]

A lockdown is not used in German schools. What is used is closing all the doors and escaping through the windows if on Ground level. The ones higher up I have no idea, I only know that schools are required to provide at least two escape windows in any classroom.

Maybe there´s a language barrier, but what´s the difference between closing the doors and a lock down?

Lock down: everybody stays inside and barricades the exits, prays for the police to arrive and the killer not to blast the doors.

German version: closing the doors, evacuating the students and having them meet at Rally points while the police race towards the rally point and the school.

[Serafina]

And semi-automatic rifles or shotguns and the building blocks for improvised explosives are easily available in most countries of the world.

They are not in Germany - you know, because we have laws controlling them (ok, the explosives are).
In this case, there was not even a simple gun.

And i do not see a need to prepare against something which is very unlikely to happen (more unlikely than the standard schoolshooting).
Since an attack with automatic weapons and high-grade explosives is as likely as, say, a military attack - it's far better to make plans against our "ordinary" schoolshooting.

Because it's better for the teachers to have a single plan memorized - otherwise, you would get even more confusion.

[[R_H]]

They are not in Germany - you know, because we have laws controlling them (ok, the explosives are).
In this case, there was not even a simple gun.

After the Winnenden attack, I heard in the German news that there are 3 times as many illegal firearms as legal ones. Just because there are laws, doesn't mean people won't break them, and it doesn't mean what's restricted can't be obtained. After all, he wanted to kill those people, do you think he cared if he broke firearms laws doing so?
[/quote]

[Serafina]

They are not in Germany - you know, because we have laws controlling them (ok, the explosives are).
In this case, there was not even a simple gun.

After the Winnenden attack, I heard in the German news that there are 3 times as many illegal firearms as legal ones. Just because there are laws, doesn't mean people won't break them, and it doesn't mean what's restricted can't be obtained. After all, he wanted to kill those people, do you think he cared if he broke firearms laws doing so?

Of course not.

Thing is, you can still water down the odds of getting a firearm.

And about the "three times as many illegeal as legal firearms" - it's true, but you need to look further.
Most of these firearms are rifles and handguns. A significant portion of them are deep within the net of organized crime.
Thing is, they are difficult to get, especially for a student (and expensive, too).

The number of automatic weapons is indeed quite small. The german police rarely encounters criminals with automatic weapons, or murders done with them. It happens, but it is rare.

Now, you have the "average" schoolshooter. Do you think that he can aquire an automatic firearm?

[Thanas]

They are not in Germany - you know, because we have laws controlling them (ok, the explosives are).
In this case, there was not even a simple gun.

After the Winnenden attack, I heard in the German news that there are 3 times as many illegal firearms as legal ones.

Which was based on an estimate that also took inherited weapons (you know, grandfather's pistol from the war that has been rotting away for seventy years in a cupboard) in account etc. There are some huge problems with that estimate.

[Eleas]

Of course not.

Thing is, you can still water down the odds of getting a firearm.

And about the "three times as many illegeal as legal firearms" - it's true, but you need to look further.
Most of these firearms are rifles and handguns. A significant portion of them are deep within the net of organized crime.
Thing is, they are difficult to get, especially for a student (and expensive, too).

Not only that, but it's also a fact that if (for instance) ten civilians in a 20 000 people suburb have access to a handgun, even with those "staggering" figures you're only likely to have around 30 or 40 handguns in circulation in this suburb, in addition to those other concerns. In other words, there's a slim chance the prospective shooter will even have access to that type of weapon. And if he does, he's not likely to be very proficient in their use, either.

Whereas in a country where guns would be more ubiquitous (note that I'm not going into real or imagined benefits of such an arrangement - it's not germane to the scenario of a school shooting) not only guns, but ammo and proficiency in firing such a weapon would be almost trivial to procure without raising eyebrows. Just as in my defense of the gist of what Marina said - that is, that you should use the plan statistically most likely to produce live students instead of dead ones - for the subject at hand, the numbers speak eloquently enough. That is also the reason why while an armed society might supposedly be a polite one (although I've yet to see any numbers given in support of such a vague claim), it is also a society in which the ruthless aggressor will still retain initiative, only this time multiplied in speed and lethality and applied at range.

The number of automatic weapons is indeed quite small. The german police rarely encounters criminals with automatic weapons, or murders done with them. It happens, but it is rare.

<region and person-specific opinion>

In Sweden, I would imagine similarly to Germany, there are only a few principal sources for getting ahold of automatic weapons. The military (the Home Guard would be your best bet in that regard, by far), models imported (as in smuggled) from points east, models owned by collectors (and in the vast majority of cases registered), and legitimate users allowed to keep them at home (a very short list). It should come as no surprise that the first two top the list. Though there are a lot of stories about the Home Guard and their lapses in protocol, they reek of exaggeration - there must certainly have been more than the odd "mislaid" gun over the years, but I feel that even with the occasional knocked-over weapons cache, that number still wouldn't begin to approach the comparative deluge of sidearms and rifles from the conflicts of the Yugoslaw wars and various black market efforts.

And yet still, when someone whips out a firearm in this country, it's not because he has a grudge against his neighbor or hates his schoolmates so very much, but because he's organized crime. And bluntly speaking, concealed carry or not, you're fucked if you try to escalate your way out of that sort of situation.

</region and person-specific opinion>

(As a side note, I'd love to have offered more precise numbers. Sadly though, just about all the stuff I could easily find when googling "automatic weapons" and "robbery" in Swedish was a number of extremist sites on which neonazis apply the immigrant label to gun robbers of unspecified nationality, bemoan the loss of a Sweden that never was, and go on to fondly speculate about gas chambers and death squads; in short, those guys Fox News interviewed while they were in Sweden to report on what the silent majority felt about Islam.)

Now, you have the "average" schoolshooter. Do you think that he can aquire an automatic firearm?

Hell no. While Germany is plenty big, I'd assume by your reputation you have a decent amount of control over your military material proper. Maybe it's a bit easier to get illegal guns over a land border, but that doesn't translate to them being available and commonly seen by the public, let alone disaffected teenagers.


EDIT: Cleared up the wording some.