Finally saw all of season 5 SG-1 Atlantis

[CaptJodan]

Hell, we've seen Wraith worshipers before. If the Wraith could engage in a kind of farming of humans, rather than their current hunter/gatherer method, they might be more successful. Set up actual breeding areas for humans, indoctrinate them in such a way that they know they are food, and that only through some sort of various slave work or whatnaught can they stave off being fed upon. Those who don't live up to the Wraith's probably high expectations get fed on. Those that prove useful can be further indoctrinated to further worship and follow the Wraith, and can be used in all manner of ways to infiltrate other human societies. It would have made the Wraith more self-sufficient, but still able to keep other societies down below their tech level (they still might need to cull for breeding stock, for example).

[Bilbo]

My point was more along the lines of the silly logic of creating more soldiers when you are having a problem feeding your current soldiers. It would make sense for the Wraith to straight clone humans with their facility to use as food. Though this might not work because the facility can only clone Wraith or because the Wraith find no interest in feeding on a mindless human clone. With their sadist streak I can see the latter being a very likely reason.

While they obviously preffer wild caught (note their lack of agriculture) there's no reason to think they'd rather starve than feed on an uneducated (who said mindless?) clone.

I can see that from Todd, but even he had a problem with the idea of no longer "being Wraith" as he put it when it came to the retro-virus. Considering how much more progressive he seems to be than other Wraith its possible other (even a large number) would rather die or die fighting over the diminishing regular foodsource.

I assume mindless because why would you bother imprinting full personalities on your food. Unless you do it purely for Wraith pleasure, a mindless clone wont show the same terror when you feed on them.

The problem I see is that the Wraith like being the "boogeyman" they like stealing people out of their normal lives, terrifying them then feeding on them. You just wont get the same adrenaline surge feeding on people you have grown yourself in a pen like cattle.

[Bilbo]

Hell, we've seen Wraith worshipers before. If the Wraith could engage in a kind of farming of humans, rather than their current hunter/gatherer method, they might be more successful. Set up actual breeding areas for humans, indoctrinate them in such a way that they know they are food, and that only through some sort of various slave work or whatnaught can they stave off being fed upon. Those who don't live up to the Wraith's probably high expectations get fed on. Those that prove useful can be further indoctrinated to further worship and follow the Wraith, and can be used in all manner of ways to infiltrate other human societies. It would have made the Wraith more self-sufficient, but still able to keep other societies down below their tech level (they still might need to cull for breeding stock, for example).

We only saw them in the one instance and that may have just been a form of entertainment for that particular Queen. Odds are none of them live that long anyway. The one worshipper certainly had a scared look to her face when the male Wraith took away Shephard. Almost makes you feel like she was the Queen's pet and couldnt trust how the others would treat her.

[CaptJodan]

Surviving Satedans were also Wraith worshipers, and were used in various forms to do the Wraith's dirty work. Even Ronan became one for a time. And those weren't with the same Queen. We've definitely seen more than one example of the worshipers. In fact, they are so common an occurrence that Tayla knew about them from her backwater world.

They don't have to live long, they just have to think they're going to live longer. Pretend like you transferred the "old ones" to another Hive, when in actuality they were fed on. Use other tactics. The point is, having a grown crop of humans would have added an interesting dynamic to the Wraith.

It's really not much different than the fake plan that the Queen had when coming to Atlantis in regards to the retro-virus. And that, I thought, was a pretty good moral quandary for the Atlantis team.

[Bilbo]

Surviving Satedans were also Wraith worshipers, and were used in various forms to do the Wraith's dirty work. Even Ronan became one for a time. And those weren't with the same Queen. We've definitely seen more than one example of the worshipers. In fact, they are so common an occurrence that Tayla knew about them from her backwater world.

They don't have to live long, they just have to think they're going to live longer. Pretend like you transferred the "old ones" to another Hive, when in actuality they were fed on. Use other tactics. The point is, having a grown crop of humans would have added an interesting dynamic to the Wraith.

It's really not much different than the fake plan that the Queen had when coming to Atlantis in regards to the retro-virus. And that, I thought, was a pretty good moral quandary for the Atlantis team.

Your right I had forgotten about the Satedans though with them it was more brainwashing since given time it even worked on Ronan.

I thought the Queen was only really interested in star drive technology and the location of Earth. Everything else was just a line of crap to get the people on Atlantis to play along.

[CaptJodan]

Your right I had forgotten about the Satedans though with them it was more brainwashing since given time it even worked on Ronan.

It was the high they got off of being fed on, and then given their life back. No reason whatsoever they couldn't do that for a whole slew of "crops".

I thought the Queen was only really interested in star drive technology and the location of Earth. Everything else was just a line of crap to get the people on Atlantis to play along.

It's really not much different than the fake plan that the Queen had when coming to Atlantis in regards to the retro-virus.

Yes, thanks, I covered that. But it would have been an interesting plan with a lot of moral ambiguity for the humans had it been the real plan.

[CaptJodan]

This is mostly to Necronlord.

Was watching First Strike last night, and it occurred to me that while it may still be a case of writer's fiat, the Asurans not detecting ships coming from hyperspace towards their planet was at least consistently not an Asuran trait.

-It was said in First Strike that the Daedalus had made several flybys of the planet, close enough to take pictures of their construction of new ships. No attempt at intercept was made by the Asurans.
-The Apollo arrives and drops its bomb. No attempt made to intercept the Apollo, or Horizon.
-In Lifeline, an uncloaked (while in hyperspace) jumper makes its way right to the Asuran homeworld. It doesn't seem as if the Asurans even know they were in the area until after they landed. Weir would have known if they had been detected on approach.
-The Apollo showing up to save the jumper in the same episode wasn't countered by the Asurans, but if they had seen it coming, might have prepared for it's arrival better.

It's often assumed (I don't know why, other than them just not using them to their fullest ability, but it is) that Asuran warships are less powerful than their Ancient counterparts. Perhaps that weakness extends to hyperspace sensors. The one thing we can say is that "...Sins Remembered" wasn't the the first time they "forgot" that they had them. They simply have never been shown to have them, that I can recall.

[NecronLord]

Indeed. It also applies to the Wraith - the SGA writers seem to assume the audience have forgotten all about hyperspace sensors - hell, it's something even Atlantis doesn't get regularly (witness the Phoenix's demise, or the 'Vanir' ship in Lost Tribe getting the drop on Atlantis) though they have it in Infection. So it seems to just be inconsistancy in writing; when it suits the writers' goals, hyperspace is un-scannable or scannable.

[Chris OFarrell]

Hyperspace sensors are one of those hit and miss technologies. On one hand, we see them all the time in SG1. and on the other, some episodes just forget them alltogether. Even Goa'uld ships have reliablee hyperspace detection abilities. The. Wraiths not having it I can understand given how underdeveloped their hyperspace tech is. But the asurans? He'll no

[NecronLord]

Well, even Atlantis which we know has them, fails on a couple occasions, though I suppose the Vanir/Assgard might have had some kind of Lantean jamming device set up.

[Zac Naloen]

Could there be an issue with regards to the quality of the hyper drives in question as well?

Asgard sensors could detect pretty much anyone in hyperspace, but how often did the Asgard put the jump on people?

[NecronLord]

Could there be an issue with regards to the quality of the hyper drives in question as well?

Asgard sensors could detect pretty much anyone in hyperspace, but how often did the Asgard put the jump on people?

Reasonably often? Freyr's flotilla gets the drop on Anubis just fine, and they ambush the replicator ship carrying Carter and Fifth, though admittedly, that seems to be a case of Thor radioing ahead with its last known vector.

[Zac Naloen]

That was my thinking, most of the time the asgard do pull off hyperspace ambushes they are the only race that do as well. Earth is now using Asgard hyper drives so it kind of follows.

[NecronLord]

Atlantis could do it. Indeed, they do so with a jumper (presumably with the aid of Atlantis' sensors) in Infection so the Ancients had that ability too. They even had a defence satellite over some kind of likely hyperspace exit point.

[Chris OFarrell]

Could there be an issue with regards to the quality of the hyper drives in question as well?

Asgard sensors could detect pretty much anyone in hyperspace, but how often did the Asgard put the jump on people?

Reasonably often? Freyr's flotilla gets the drop on Anubis just fine, and they ambush the replicator ship carrying Carter and Fifth, though admittedly, that seems to be a case of Thor radioing ahead with its last known vector.

They also got to the Prometheus in a very short time after they fired up their Hyperdrive and left Earth, with Thor claiming that they monitor all Hyperspace activity in the vicinity of Earth. And I very VERY much doubt given their situation, that they had an O'Neill just hanging around Earth for the fun of it.

The annoying thing is that it just would have taken one or two words in 'Be all my sins' about the two Daedalus class ships carrying a newly deployed Asgard hyperspace 'stealth' module that would hide the 'hyperspace wake' or something from the Asuran long range sensors, to explain away how the allied fleet burst out of hyperspace without warning and got the jump on the Asurans. Hell, you could even have fun with all the ships having to fly in an ultra-close formation to envelop everyone in the field, everyone (well everyone not Wraith anyway) having to be all but forced into 'pressing up against the other guy' the whole way there...

Hell, it would even explain the brilliant success at hitting the Asurans Aurora's one by one, because the Asurans literally didn't see them coming, ever...

[Bilbo]

They also got to the Prometheus in a very short time after they fired up their Hyperdrive and left Earth, with Thor claiming that they monitor all Hyperspace activity in the vicinity of Earth. And I very VERY much doubt given their situation, that they had an O'Neill just hanging around Earth for the fun of it.

This isnt backed up though. Thor doesnt show up to deal with Loki until SG1 tells him about the problem.

Maybe that was just a line from Thor to cover up the fact that along with the Asgard help on the Prometheus they also installed their own version of GPS on the ship buried somewhere within the hyperdrive system.

[Bilbo]

Well, even Atlantis which we know has them, fails on a couple occasions, though I suppose the Vanir/Assgard might have had some kind of Lantean jamming device set up.

Could just be that the sensors are designed to work best detecting Wraith ship emissions or are currently programmed at way because that was the main threat when the Ancients were around last and Rodney hasnt figured out how to change them.

As other examples the Ancient sensors on Atlantis do not pick up the Daedalus until it arrives at Atlantis in the Siege episode. Nor does it pick up the asteroids launched by the Wraith until the last minute even though they were aimed at the planet Atlantis was on and thus an obvious threat. Finally, Atlantis was not able to track Asuran warships until they had the module supplied to them by the Replicator copies.

This might also explain the whole Pentagard shield penetration. If Ancient technology can be set to be optomized for certain threats then it would explain how they flew through the shield, it was optimized for Wraith weapons, and how Rodney so easily modified the shield so that couldnt happen again (or at least modified it so he thought it couldnt happen again).

[Chris OFarrell]

They also got to the Prometheus in a very short time after they fired up their Hyperdrive and left Earth, with Thor claiming that they monitor all Hyperspace activity in the vicinity of Earth. And I very VERY much doubt given their situation, that they had an O'Neill just hanging around Earth for the fun of it.

This isnt backed up though. Thor doesnt show up to deal with Loki until SG1 tells him about the problem.

...yes but Loki is HIDING from the Asgard, I'm sure he is perfectly able to beat the system he knows all about, especially given that its canon that Asgard ships use some kind of stealth technology.

Maybe that was just a line from Thor to cover up the fact that along with the Asgard help on the Prometheus they also installed their own version of GPS on the ship buried somewhere within the hyperdrive system.

No, because this was Earth testing their own home grown Hyperdrive system long before the Asgard gave any technological help to Earth with their starships.

[Chris OFarrell]

Well, even Atlantis which we know has them, fails on a couple occasions, though I suppose the Vanir/Assgard might have had some kind of Lantean jamming device set up.

Could just be that the sensors are designed to work best detecting Wraith ship emissions or are currently programmed at way because that was the main threat when the Ancients were around last and Rodney hasnt figured out how to change them.

As other examples the Ancient sensors on Atlantis do not pick up the Daedalus until it arrives at Atlantis in the Siege episode.

This was after the Naquadah enhanced nukes really screwed up local space sensor conditions though. They didn't detect the Wraith reinforcements until they were less then a day out after all.

Nor does it pick up the asteroids launched by the Wraith until the last minute even though they were aimed at the planet Atlantis was on and thus an obvious threat.

Actually no, they are explicit in that the sensors WERE tracking them, its just that they didn't flag them for human attention until the Cityship computers decided they were a threat.

Finally, Atlantis was not able to track Asuran warships until they had the module supplied to them by the Replicator copies.

Sort of, you're talking about tracking a fleet dispersed across an entire Galaxy here. They WERE and DID track the initial launch of the fleet from the Replicator homeworld against a Wraith stronghold from Atlantis, which was hundreds of light years away. Which is the joke about how the hell didn't the Asurans see where Atlantis went.

This might also explain the whole Pentagard shield penetration. If Ancient technology can be set to be optomized for certain threats then it would explain how they flew through the shield, it was optimized for Wraith weapons, and how Rodney so easily modified the shield so that couldnt happen again (or at least modified it so he thought it couldnt happen again).

Its much more likely to simply be a type of IFF technology, where the Asgard, like the Jumpers, had the access codes hardwired into the city that let them fly through the shield. Hence McKay just locking them out is a simple thing to do. If it was easy to simply modify a weapon to pass through the shields, the Asurans would have destroyed Atlantis in the first salvo in 'First Strike' with their beam weapon.

[NecronLord]

It does seem that the Assgard use a lot of Lantean technology, their ships might even have been built by the Lanteans. Which would certainly explain its flying through the shield easily.

SGU Spoiler: Spoiler

Their environment suits very closely resemble the space-suits on the Destiny; it's likely those suits were designed for Lantean soldiers at some point. Which gives a very different image to ground-battles in the Wraith-Lantean war: the lantean soldiers we've seen so far have after all, only been starships' security details.

[CaptJodan]

It does seem that the Assgard use a lot of Lantean technology, their ships might even have been built by the Lanteans. Which would certainly explain its flying through the shield easily.

I've always been of the opinion that the Assgard were using more Ancient tech than Asgard tech anyway. The ship design looked far more ancient than Asgard (flight pods), and their pulses were yellow (yeah, real scientific analysis, there...but it's what we got). I'd say they got the bastardized version of ancient tech, as their ships and weapons were subpar, though.

Its much more likely to simply be a type of IFF technology, where the Asgard, like the Jumpers, had the access codes hardwired into the city that let them fly through the shield.

It does explain a lot, for example how the Apollo was able to beam people through the city's shields both to and fro, during the attack. Of course, nothing explains the sudden "we can't beam through our own shields like we've done dozens of times before" shit from "Search and Rescue".