Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

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The Spartan
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Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

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AP through Yahoo News
Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science
By PAMELA HESS, Associated Press Writer Pamela Hess, Associated Press Writer 5 mins ago

WASHINGTON – Prolonged stress from the CIA's harsh interrogations could have impaired the memories of terrorist suspects, diminishing their ability to recall and provide the detailed information the spy agency sought, according to a scientific paper published Monday.

The methods could even have caused the suspects to create — and believe — false memories, contends the paper, which scrutinizes the techniques used by the CIA under the Bush administration through the lens of neurobiology. It suggests the methods are actually counterproductive, no matter how much suspects might eventually say.

"Solid scientific evidence on how repeated and extreme stress and pain affect memory and executive functions (such as planning or forming intentions) suggests these techniques are unlikely to do anything other than the opposite of that intended by coercive or enhanced interrogation," according to the paper in the scientific journal Trends in Cognitive Sciences.

In the paper, Shane O'Mara, a professor at Ireland's Trinity College Institute of Neuroscience, wrote that the severe interrogation techniques appear based on "folk psychology" — a layman's idea of how the brain works as opposed to science-based understanding of memory and cognitive function.

O'Mara told The Associated Press on Monday he reviewed the scientific literature about the effect of stress on memory and brain function after reading descriptions of the CIA's Bush-era interrogation methods. The methods were detailed in previously classified legal memos released in April.

O'Mara did not examine or interview any of those interrogated by the CIA, a fact noted by the agency in commenting on his work.

"The CIA's former interrogation program was conducted pursuant to legal guidance from the Department of Justice. It produced intelligence on which our government acted to disrupt terrorist operations. Those are facts. The author of this study did not, to my knowledge, have direct contact with individuals who had been part of the agency's high-value detainee program," said CIA spokesman George Little.

O'Mara said that in general, "The assumption is that the (methods) are without effect on memory, or indeed facilitate the retrieval of information from memory."

But overwhelmingly, scientific literature shows the opposite: Chronic stress and trauma — the likely result of the CIA's methods, particularly for long-term prisoners, according to O'Mara — can damage the hippocampus, the part of the brain that integrates memory.

O'Mara's findings reflect the review of scientific and medical literature on the effect of acute stress on memory and cognitive function.

"We've known for quite a while that stress radically impairs cognition. We know memory is very fragile to begin with," said Stephen Soldz, president-elect of Psychologists for Social Responsibility and a professor at Boston Graduate School of Psychoanalysis. "It's just amazing that this has not been taken into account."

Dr. Scott Allen, an internist and Brown University associate professor, is reviewing literature for the advocacy group Physicians for Human Rights and told the AP he has yet to find studies that would support the efficacy of harsh interrogation techniques.

"In fact what I've found is it seems like it would be a poor strategy," Allen said.

The list of techniques the CIA used included prolonged sleep deprivation — six days in at least one instance — being chained in painful positions, exploitation of prisoners' phobias, and waterboarding, a form of simulated drowning that President Barack Obama has called torture. Three CIA prisoners were waterboarded, two of them extensively.

Those methods cause the brain to release stress hormones that, if their release is repeated and prolonged, may result in compromised brain function and even tissue loss, O'Mara wrote.

He warned that this could lead to brain lobe disorders, making the prisoners vulnerable to confabulation — in this case, the pathological production of false memories based on suggestions from an interrogator. Those false memories mix with true information in the interrogation, making it difficult to distinguish between what is real and what is fabricated.

Waterboarding is especially stressful "with the potential to cause widespread stress-induced changes in the brain, especially when these are repeated frequently and intensively," O'Mara wrote.

"The fact that the detrimental effects of these techniques on the brain are not visible to the naked eye makes them no less real," he wrote.

The paper also asserted that forcibly exposing prisoners to what they are afraid of — the CIA got approval to use a suspect's fear of insects against him — is actually a method used to cure phobias. The insects were never used, according to the government.

A 2006 Intelligence Science Board report on interrogation also noted possible negative effects of certain methods. For example, isolating suspects can be beneficial to interrogation because it shakes prisoners' confidence and expectations, but extended isolation can significantly and negatively affect the ability of the source to recall information accurately, according to the report.

The board, created in 2002, provides independent advice to senior intelligence officials on emerging scientific and technical issues of special importance to intelligence work.
Short version: torture is counterproductive.

Longer version: torture can lead to changes in a person's brain that makes it difficult or even impossible to recall details and sometimes to cause their mind to concoct memories whole cloth. In other words, they say anything to make it stop.
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

Post by Alyeska »

That piece and the information that Ali Soufan has given regarding torture and its actual effectiveness just proves that torture is bullshit.
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

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Well, this just proves it a little bit more that the only real reason for torture is to inspire fear. It's been that way through much of the last couple of hundred years, afterall - all those dictatorships haven't normally been using it for the results on the subject, but on the populace. People fear you that much more if they can expect a car battery being hooked up to their penis.

It also makes it all the more tragically comic that the US tried to justify it as a legitimate means of interrogation, when the reality of it is that - and this should have been obvious to goddamn everyone involved - widespread use (there'll always be torture of some kind during an occupation. It's inevitable, unfortunately, but that's a different matter) will cause major issues down the line and it doesn't even work. You'd think the CIA would have learnt that in South America.
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

Post by Solauren »

Given that torture has been used to make people confess to being brides of a variety of supernatural beings, and having impossible powers, I don't see how this could come as a surprise to anyone with a ounce of brainpower.

However, this is the Central Incompetence Agency, so....

But seriously, quite frankly, this puts so much of the 'War on Terror' in perspective. It's been running off faulty (at best) or made up (more then likely) intelligence since Day 1!

One more brush stroke on the canvas + painting that is the Bush Administration Portrait of Shame.
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

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It seems that at this time one could almost write a casebook on how not to run a nation on Bushs example. Is there one area where they did not fail resoundingly?
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

Post by Lord of the Abyss »

loomer wrote:Well, this just proves it a little bit more that the only real reason for torture is to inspire fear.
That, and to force convenient lies out of people. Torture may be bad at getting useful information out of people, but it's quite good at making them lie for you.
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

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Thanas wrote:It seems that at this time one could almost write a casebook on how not to run a nation on Bushs example. Is there one area where they did not fail resoundingly?
The rich got richer.

On topic:
It's nice to have a (nother) scientific explanation why torture just does not work for information gathering.
Perhaps now some of these apologetics will shut up.
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Thanas wrote:It seems that at this time one could almost write a casebook on how not to run a nation on Bushs example. Is there one area where they did not fail resoundingly?
Aid to Africa and certain other parts of the developing world was surprisingly effective given that conservative strictures were still placed upon large grant blocs. That's about it.
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

Post by Big Phil »

I'm actually shocked that anything in the Bush administration was informed by ANY sort of science, good, bad or otherwise... they could have made better decisions using a Magic 8-Ball, but then that would probably have been considered witchcraft... :roll:
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

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loomer wrote:(there'll always be torture of some kind during an occupation. It's inevitable, unfortunately, but that's a different matter)
I think the word you're looking for is 'institutionalized.' It's the systematic usage of it. Individuals losing their composure, while neither acceptable nor condonable, is understandable in the right set of circumstances. On the other hand, as we know, making it policy is just a huge clusterfuck in the making.
SancheztheWhaler wrote:I'm actually shocked that anything in the Bush administration was informed by ANY sort of science, good, bad or otherwise... they could have made better decisions using a Magic 8-Ball, but then that would probably have been considered witchcraft... :roll:
It's the pop psychology kind of science, where science should actually be in quotes. "Common sense"* being applied where it shouldn't be. "Of course they'll tell us what we want to know, it'll make the painenhanced techniques stop!"

*As it happens, I don't actually believe that common sense is useful for much of anything beyond 'fire burns you', 'water is wet', etc. because I've actually studied dynamic systems where common sense doesn't apply. Hell, like the current quote of the week says: "Common sense is the collection of prejudices acquired by age eighteen." - Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

Didn't they kinda prove this shit during the age of reason or the renniasnce?

I mean unless your someone like the blacksmith from the Salem Witch Trials, who goaded them into killing him during torture, your going to eventually make up what ever just to make it stop.
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

Post by Eleas »

The Yosemite Bear wrote:Didn't they kinda prove this shit during the age of reason or the renniasnce?
Looks like the age of reason is past.

Look, let's be honest here. During the Bush era, the CIA were tasked to produce confessions. I don't really get the massive surprise over the fact that they did just that, while grabbing a chance at 'payback' whenever possible.
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

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"The CIA's former interrogation program was conducted pursuant to legal guidance from the Department of Justice. It produced intelligence on which our government acted to disrupt terrorist operations. Those are facts. The author of this study did not, to my knowledge, have direct contact with individuals who had been part of the agency's high-value detainee program," said CIA spokesman George Little.
FACT: calling things 'facts' deflects all criticism, regardless of whether those facts are relevant.

1. Appeal to authority
2. Post hoc ergo propter hoc
3. Red herring - researching the effects of pain on the brain does not require interviewing tortured CIA detainees.
"We've known for quite a while that stress radically impairs cognition. We know memory is very fragile to begin with," said Stephen Soldz, president-elect of Psychologists for Social Responsibility and a professor at Boston Graduate School of Psychoanalysis. "It's just amazing that this has not been taken into account."

Dr. Scott Allen, an internist and Brown University associate professor, is reviewing literature for the advocacy group Physicians for Human Rights and told the AP he has yet to find studies that would support the efficacy of harsh interrogation techniques.

"In fact what I've found is it seems like it would be a poor strategy," Allen said.
Dr. Scott Allen, internist and Brown University ass. prof., clearly hasn't watched enough of the Jack Bauer Power Hour.
The list of techniques the CIA used included prolonged sleep deprivation — six days in at least one instance — being chained in painful positions, exploitation of prisoners' phobias, and waterboarding, a form of simulated drowning that President Barack Obama has called torture. Three CIA prisoners were waterboarded, two of them extensively.

[...]

Waterboarding is especially stressful "with the potential to cause widespread stress-induced changes in the brain, especially when these are repeated frequently and intensively," O'Mara wrote.
But of course waterboarding isn't real torture, you see, it's a 'technique that is merely called torture by Obama' - two completely different things. It certainly wasn't considered a war crime in WWII, when the Japanese were doing it, right? (Although I guess I can't fault Associated Press for covering its ass).
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

Post by CmdrWilkens »

Winston Blake wrote:
"The CIA's former interrogation program was conducted pursuant to legal guidance from the Department of Justice. It produced intelligence on which our government acted to disrupt terrorist operations. Those are facts. The author of this study did not, to my knowledge, have direct contact with individuals who had been part of the agency's high-value detainee program," said CIA spokesman George Little.
FACT: calling things 'facts' deflects all criticism, regardless of whether those facts are relevant.

1. Appeal to authority
2. Post hoc ergo propter hoc
3. Red herring - researching the effects of pain on the brain does not require interviewing tortured CIA detainees.
I think you should have included point 4) Legal guidelines are irrelevant in considering the scientific validity of the program. Things can be legal and still psychologically stupid (see texting and driving) at the same time. Deflecting concerns about the program by claiming it was legal doesn't address the point that they were done in a way that almost certainly produced results contrary to the desired outcome.
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

Post by Aratech »

Serafina wrote: On topic:
It's nice to have a (nother) scientific explanation why torture just does not work for information gathering.
Perhaps now some of these apologetics will shut up.
Ahahahahaha, good one. :)

Oh, wait... you were serious, weren't you?


The nutbags supporting torture won't shut up over this. I doubt they ever will.
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

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CmdrWilkens wrote:I think you should have included point 4) Legal guidelines are irrelevant in considering the scientific validity of the program. Things can be legal and still psychologically stupid (see texting and driving) at the same time.
Are you saying it's legal to drive whilst texting where you are?
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

Post by Duckie »

Stofsk wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:I think you should have included point 4) Legal guidelines are irrelevant in considering the scientific validity of the program. Things can be legal and still psychologically stupid (see texting and driving) at the same time.
Are you saying it's legal to drive whilst texting where you are?
In much of america it's legal to drive and talk on the cell phone, drive and text, drive and eat a hamburger, drive and do make up, or anything.
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

though drive and recieve a blow job is not legal in some states....
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

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Aratech wrote:The nutbags supporting torture won't shut up over this. I doubt they ever will.
Except they're not calling it torture. It's either enhanced interrogation, or "torture".
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

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Stofsk wrote:
CmdrWilkens wrote:I think you should have included point 4) Legal guidelines are irrelevant in considering the scientific validity of the program. Things can be legal and still psychologically stupid (see texting and driving) at the same time.
Are you saying it's legal to drive whilst texting where you are?
Oh yeah, it took an ungodly amount of pressure just to get DC to go to hand-free only for cell phones and Maryland has been bogged down trying to go even that far. Despite the vast evidence of the negative consequences nobody in this area has banned texting while driving (though the hands-free in DC MAY do this as a side benefit, I don't think anybody has yet tested this in an actual case) and even cell phone use while driving remains largely permitted.

Honestly I'm amazed that we've moved in the region to an almost universal adoption of .08 as the BAC standard instead of .10 that is still common.
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Re: Report: CIA interrogations informed by bad science

Post by Bluewolf »

Pro torture people will be quick to decry this as false or ignore it. It is nice to have some proof though. It's just a shame it is still going on really.

Oh and here in Britain, texting while driving is banned and fiddling with things while driving can increase charges in court, if you cause a crash.
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