Zelaya returns!

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Zelaya returns!

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(CNN) -- Ousted Honduran President Jose Manuel Zelaya returned Monday to the capital city of Honduras, where he said he is planning to meet with his critics to arrange for his return to power.
Zelaya was seized by the Honduran military in his pajamas and sent into exile on June 28.

In the capital of Tegucigalpa, the interim government ordered a curfew from 4 p.m. Monday until 6 p.m. Tuesday, said journalist Erin Sandoval.

"I have never seen the sky so blue and beautiful," he told CNN en Español in a telephone call from the Brazilian Embassy in Tegucigalpa.

It was Zelaya's first view of the city since June 28, when he was awakened by soldiers who then put him, still in his pajamas, on a plane out of the country.

"I have returned so that dialogue can carry on in my own land and in my own city," he said. "I hope that in the next few hours we'll be able to communicate with the coup plotters."

"For the moment, thanks to [Brazilian] President [Luiz Inacio] Lula, ... we have protection here."

Zelaya called on the armed forces to allow the matter to be resolved through dialogue. "They're members of the pueblo," he said. "We look for immediate dialogue. ... Our position is peaceful, it always has been."

He said thousands of people had taken to the streets of the city in support of his return.

Zelaya said he spent Sunday night in Guatemala, and that his trip to Tegucigalpa took more than 15 hours. "There was a lot of security and roadblocks," he said. "There is a lot of persecution, a lot of fear in our country."

At the United Nations, U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton and Costa Rican President Oscar Arias expressed hope that Zelaya's return could break the impasse with the Micheletti government and restore the ousted leader to office.

"Now that President Zelaya is back it would be opportune to restore him to his position under appropriate circumstances -- get on with the election that is currently scheduled for November, have a peaceful transition of presidential authority and get Honduras back to constitutional and democratic order," Clinton said.

And Arias told reporters that Zeyala's return was "the best opportunity" to move forward with the San Jose Accord he negotiated.

"It's all we have on the table," he said. "There is no B plan."

In a written statement, the secretary general of the Organization for American States, Jose Miguel Insulza, confirmed Zelaya's presence in the embassy and called on "the actors involved in this process" to be calm.

He said the de facto government "should make themselves responsible for the security of President Zelaya and of the Brazilian Embassy."

Zelaya's return comes as the United States has stepped up its call for the current Honduran government run by de facto leader Roberto Micheletti to restore Zelaya to power.

Earlier this month, the United States revoked the visas of Micheletti, 14 supreme court judges and others.

The United States also said it was terminating all non-humanitarian aid to Honduras in a bid to pressure the interim government to end the political turmoil and accept the terms of the San Jose Accord, which was brokered by Costa Rican President Oscar Arias. The accord calls for Zelaya's return to power.

The political crisis stemmed from Zelaya's plan to hold a referendum that could have changed the constitution and allowed longer term limits. The country's congress had outlawed the vote and the supreme court had ruled it illegal.

Micheletti and his supporters say that Zelaya's removal was a constitutional transfer of power and not a coup. The United Nations has condemned Zelaya's ouster and does not recognize Micheletti's government. While the United States has called Zelaya's ouster a coup, it has not formally designated it a "military coup," which, under U.S. law, would have triggered a cutoff of all non-humanitarian aid. Senior State Department officials said the Obama administration was reluctant to make the formal designation in order to preserve its flexibility for a diplomatic solution.

A presidential campaign in Honduras kicked off this month. However, the United States said it would not support the outcome of the elections unless Zelaya was restored to power.
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Hopefully the illegitimate Micheletti 'government' will be overthrown by this. They are already panicking; censoring the media, breaking up demonstrations with force, cutting water and power to neighborhoods around the embassy, and have imposed a military curfew. According to local blogs, several demonstrators are already dead, and police are rounding up wounded protestors that show up in hospitals.

It would be great to see the coup leaders and the oligarchs who supported them ripped to shreds for their crimes against the Honduran people and nation.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

Post by Simon_Jester »

So... does Zelaya get to try and make himself de facto president for life on the Chavez plan like he was trying to do before he got kicked out of the country?

I'm not saying the coup troop types were right; I'm just not sure Zelaya is right either.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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As I understand it, he wanted to hold a non-binding poll on changing the constitution. If the people of Honduras didn't want this, they could have just voted "no". A coup with censorship, killings and a military crackdown seems a rather extreme reaction.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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Yes. Like I said, I'm not saying the coup guys were right.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

Post by TimothyC »

Calling it a coup is misleading. The Honduran Supreme Court said to the military, "Zelaya has to go", so the military, following the orders of the constitutional authority, did so.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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MariusRoi wrote:Calling it a coup is misleading. The Honduran Supreme Court said to the military, "Zelaya has to go", so the military, following the orders of the constitutional authority, did so.
To expand-

Zelaya wanted to do his referendum, which is actually illegal under the Honduran Constitution. The Honduran Supreme Court said, "You can not do this". Zelaya ordered the head of the Army to distribute the ballots. He refused, was fired, at which point the Supreme Court said "You can't fire him", and reinstated him. Zelaya then had his followers break into government offices and attempt to forcibly distribute the ballots, at which point the Supreme Court ordered him removed from power, and the military complied. The Honduran legislature, following procedure, then picked a new President.

The only mistake the Honduran military made was exiling this guy in the middle of the night. They probably had security reasons in mind (considering that he attempted to use mob action to get his illegal referendum, they probably figured he'd try it to stay in power), but realistically they should have jailed him, at least temporarily, while picking a new president.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

Post by Jadeite »

The Honduran government does have a procedure for impeachment, not in the constitution, but in their penal code. That would have been the proper motion to go through, not abducting him in the middle of the night, exiling him, and shutting down any radio station or publication that condemned the move.

Which sounds like a bigger threat to democracy? A man who tried to pass a non-binding referendum about changing a constitution that was imposed upon them by a foreign power, or a government that has no qualms about the use of lethal force on protestors, censors the media, and is shutting down communications and transit in order to keep ahold of power?

Also, this is quite interesting about Micheletti's motives:

In 1985 Micheletti was part of a group of deputies signing a motion calling for the National Congress to reseat itself as a National Constituent Assembly. According to the opposition, the proposal was aimed at enabling then-President Roberto Suazo Córdova to run for re-election in the 1985 Honduras presidential election.[8] Ultimately the proposal was dropped when Efrain Bu Giron called General Walter López Reyes about it.[9]
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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Which sounds like a bigger threat to democracy? A man who tried to pass a non-binding referendum about changing a constitution that was imposed upon them by a foreign power, or a government that has no qualms about the use of lethal force on protestors, censors the media, and is shutting down communications and transit in order to keep ahold of power?
Nice way of phrasing. How about

"Which is a bigger threat to democracy? A man who tried to push an illegal referendum (to see if he could drum up support for ending term limits) by hook or by crook, ordering his followers to break into government offices and distribute the referendum ballots contrary to the country's legal system? Or a government that was brought in by will of the Legislature, following orders from the Court, after an admittedly bad process of removing the prior President from power? "
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Re: Zelaya returns!

Post by Jadeite »

Guardsman Bass wrote:
Which sounds like a bigger threat to democracy? A man who tried to pass a non-binding referendum about changing a constitution that was imposed upon them by a foreign power, or a government that has no qualms about the use of lethal force on protestors, censors the media, and is shutting down communications and transit in order to keep ahold of power?
Nice way of phrasing. How about

"Which is a bigger threat to democracy? A man who tried to push an illegal referendum (to see if he could drum up support for ending term limits) by hook or by crook, ordering his followers to break into government offices and distribute the referendum ballots contrary to the country's legal system? Or a government that was brought in by will of the Legislature, following orders from the Court, after an admittedly bad process of removing the prior President from power? "
Nice way of ignoring that the current regime has murdered protestors in its desperate attempts to cling to power. It'd be interesting to see what morality system you have, given that you apparently consider some legal shenanigans to be a worse threat to democracy over murdering the opposition, censoring the free press, and paralyzing transit and communications.

This is like claiming that Nixon was worse for American democracy than Pinochet was for Chile.

I also notice that you ignored that quote about how Micheletti once supported a previous President's attempt to remain in power, but has done a 180 turn when it comes to Zelaya. Perhaps this was more related to political motives than constitutional? :wink:

Either way, hopefully the fucker will end up facing the People's justice.

As an update on the situation, copy pasted from a blog that SA found:
Update 2:46 p.m. Tegucigalpa (4:46 p.m. ET): Further showing his grand commitment to "democracy" and law, Micheletti's security forces are presently reading the search and seizure order through a megaphone to the Brazilian Embassy. It could be a bluff, but if Zelaya doesn't fall for it (and The Field predicts he won't), and the coup troops invade the Embassy, all hell is going to break loose on an international level, just as the United Nations General Assembly begins its most important session of the year in New York.

Brazil's foreign minister, in New York, has called for an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council. The US State Department has called on the de facto regime to respect Brazilian territory, as President Obama has just appointed US Rep. Bill Delahunt (D-MA), leader in the US Congress against the Honduran coup, to the US delegation at the UN session, perhaps an indication of some plans afoot up there.

Is the coup regime that desperate and stupid to commit an act of war against Brazilian territory? (Two words to ponder: Blue helmets.) We'll shortly find out, and report it here.

3:18 p.m.: Micheletti blinks:
Honduras' de facto leader, Roberto Micheletti, said on Tuesday he has no intention of confronting Brazil or entering its embassy where ousted President Manuel Zelaya has taken refuge to avoid arrest.
"We will do absolutely nothing to confront another brotherly nation. We we want them to understand that they should give him political asylum (in Brazil) or turn him over to Honduran authorities to be tried," Micheletti told Reuters.

Meanwhile, at least two popular barrios in and around Tegucigalpa have defied, en masse, the curfew order and chased National Police out of their communities: El Pedregal and Colonia Kennedy. They've erected barricades and declared the coup regime and its security forces non grata.

5:57 p.m.: Brazil has now put its request for an emergency session of the United Nations Security Council in writing. It clearly considers the hostile actions by the Honduras coup regime of cutting water, telephone and electricity to its Embassy and the physical intervention by regime security forces to prevent food, water or other provisions from entering the building as acts of war.

The Security Council has five permanent member states - Russia, China, Great Britain, France and the United States - and five rotating seats now filled by Costa Rica, Croatia, Libya, Burkina Faso and Vietnam. Do the math. The presidency of the Security Council rotates month by month. In September of 2009 that chair belongs to the United States. The Council will meet tomorrow morning to discuss the situation in Honduras and whatever requests Brazil makes. Perhaps related: US President Barack Obama is scheduled to address the UN General Assembly at 10 a.m. ET tomorrow in New York.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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Nice way of ignoring that the current regime has murdered protestors in its desperate attempts to cling to power. It'd be interesting to see what morality system you have, given that you apparently consider some legal shenanigans to be a worse threat to democracy over murdering the opposition, censoring the free press, and paralyzing transit and communications.
I notice you have yet to point out whether or not they are actually committing something illegal by doing what sounds like the equivalent of a "state of emergency" like we have back in the US.
I also notice that you ignored that quote about how Micheletti once supported a previous President's attempt to remain in power, but has done a 180 turn when it comes to Zelaya. Perhaps this was more related to political motives than constitutional?
I honestly don't give a rat's ass about Micheletti - he was put in by the Legislature's vote (including many of Zelaya's own party). Had they picked a different person as President, I wouldn't have particularly cared either.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

Post by The Duchess of Zeon »

Yeah, it's so cute to see people supporting the autocrat (who's a rich farmer, by the way, not really at all a man of the people) and not the constitutionally mandated government.... Granted, the same thing is increasingly happening in the US with our Presidents, but that doesn't make it good!
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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On a side note: Why would you design a constitution that outlaws referendums relating to the constitution? It sounds monumentally retarded. In Australia, any change to the constitution must be passed via a referendum with majorities in a majority of states. We have managed not to collapse into dictatorship in the last 108 years.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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It only outlaws referendums relating to getting rid of the 1 term limit imposed on Presidents. Any other part of the constitution is fair game. I can only assume that they're scared of people declaring themselves to be President for life or gerrymandering themselves to become the effective President for life.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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Lusankya wrote:It only outlaws referendums relating to getting rid of the 1 term limit imposed on Presidents. Any other part of the constitution is fair game. I can only assume that they're scared of people declaring themselves to be President for life or gerrymandering themselves to become the effective President for life.
Many countries don't have term limits and have done just fine. Britain, Australia, India, Germany, Japan, and Canada to name a few (I'm talking about the positions of importance such as the Prime Minister, Chancellor, etc). None have collapsed into dictatorship post World War 2.

A would be dictator would virtually declare himself President for life regardless of the constitution (like Pinochet). As for gerrymandering, it's not a problem unique to countries without term limits. Hell, even the United States has problems with gerrymandering. The solution is an independent bodies to redraw boundaries.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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Keep in mind that this is Latin America, though - there is a history of dictators basically abusing a "no term limits" policy to stay in office forever. Honduras isn't the only country in that area that has term limits on their executive - Mexico limits its President to one term, Colombia limits them to two terms (although the Colombian President is trying to change that), and so forth.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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Guardsman Bass wrote:Keep in mind that this is Latin America, though - there is a history of dictators basically abusing a "no term limits" policy to stay in office forever. Honduras isn't the only country in that area that has term limits on their executive - Mexico limits its President to one term, Colombia limits them to two terms (although the Colombian President is trying to change that), and so forth.
Most of these "no-term" dictators came to power through military coups rather than political referendums.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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bobalot wrote:
Guardsman Bass wrote:Keep in mind that this is Latin America, though - there is a history of dictators basically abusing a "no term limits" policy to stay in office forever. Honduras isn't the only country in that area that has term limits on their executive - Mexico limits its President to one term, Colombia limits them to two terms (although the Colombian President is trying to change that), and so forth.
Most of these "no-term" dictators came to power through military coups rather than political referendums.
But they often then manipulated the elections to stay in power, as a kind of (thin) veneer of legitimacy.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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Guardsman Bass wrote:
bobalot wrote:
Guardsman Bass wrote:Keep in mind that this is Latin America, though - there is a history of dictators basically abusing a "no term limits" policy to stay in office forever. Honduras isn't the only country in that area that has term limits on their executive - Mexico limits its President to one term, Colombia limits them to two terms (although the Colombian President is trying to change that), and so forth.
Most of these "no-term" dictators came to power through military coups rather than political referendums.
But they often then manipulated the elections to stay in power, as a kind of (thin) veneer of legitimacy.
Only after gaining total power through a military coup (Those sham elections were simply a sop to their foreign backers). It doesn't change the the fact that nearly every dictatorship in South America came into being through a military coup rather than a political referendum.

Are you seriously implying that referendums on the constitution are bad because dictators used sham referendums after their military coups? You could use that argument against holding elections altogether.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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I think we're arguing that they're nervous of it happening because of the cultural/political environment that they find themselves in.

PS Does the name Joh Bjelke-Petersen mean anything to you?
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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Lusankya wrote:I think we're arguing that they're nervous of it happening because of the cultural/political environment that they find themselves in.

PS Does the name Joh Bjelke-Petersen mean anything to you?
Yes, it does. He was the Conservative state minister in charge of Queensland (an Australian state, for those of you who don't know). He was massively corrupt, gerrymandered seats so he won with 20% of the vote, and is partially responsible for massive corruption in the Queensland police force. Unsurprisingly other conservatives loved him and gave embarrassing tributes at his state funeral (including the Prime Minister), proving corruption is OKAY as long as you are a pro-business conservative.

However, the Fitzgerald Inquiry (A royal commission) more or less destroyed Joh (and his hangers on) and started the process of rooting out corruption in the police force. The method of setting electoral boundaries was reformed and handed over to a non-political organisation. No one would dare trying to gerrymander today and even attempt bias the commission.

So let me attempt to follow the logic here. Non-Binding referendum --> Gerrymandering--> Dictator for life?
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Re: Zelaya returns!

Post by Lusankya »

I imagine that (or something like that) is what the framers of the Honduran constitution were worried about.

And depending on the level of corruption already present in Honduras, it might be a wise precaution. Bjelke-Petersen got kicked out because he was not in an already thoroughly corrupt country. If Honduras does not have the systems in place to overcome such a problem, then having laws to prevent such a situation from occurring is probably a wise thing.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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bobalot wrote:
Guardsman Bass wrote:Keep in mind that this is Latin America, though - there is a history of dictators basically abusing a "no term limits" policy to stay in office forever. Honduras isn't the only country in that area that has term limits on their executive - Mexico limits its President to one term, Colombia limits them to two terms (although the Colombian President is trying to change that), and so forth.
Most of these "no-term" dictators came to power through military coups rather than political referendums.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

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The Duchess of Zeon wrote:Yeah, it's so cute to see people supporting the autocrat (who's a rich farmer, by the way, not really at all a man of the people) and not the constitutionally mandated government.... Granted, the same thing is increasingly happening in the US with our Presidents, but that doesn't make it good!
The moral ambiguity comes from the fact that the post-Zelaya government hasn't been acting the way we'd expect from a government heavily preoccupied with the rule of law and protecting civil liberties. They may have their reasons, but it makes a fair number of people wonder if the Hondurans have evicted their version of Nixon only to end up with something like Argentina's Videla. Which in turn makes Zelaya look better by comparison, because hey, at least he wasn't shooting people, right?
Lusankya wrote:It only outlaws referendums relating to getting rid of the 1 term limit imposed on Presidents. Any other part of the constitution is fair game. I can only assume that they're scared of people declaring themselves to be President for life or gerrymandering themselves to become the effective President for life.
This being Honduras, they have reason. That kind of thing happens a LOT in Latin America; there's a long tradition of strongmen riding roughshod over their country's constitution and saying it's all OK because "the people" support them. So putting some Read-Only-Memory statements in about stopping any one man from having power over the country for long is helpful, because it forces any would-be dictator to openly defy the Constitution to retain long-term power... which Zelaya did. Whether it was reasonable for him to pass the ballots out or not, it was definitely unconstitutional for him to do so.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

Post by CJvR »

IIRC the Honduran constitution only prevents people in elected offices from working on removing the one term ban on the presidency. Zelaya could have waited until he was a private citizen again and campaigned for reforming the constitution. Naturally that would have limited his personal chances of becoming presidator for life which is where the main problem lies I suspect.
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Re: Zelaya returns!

Post by Jadeite »

I imagine that (or something like that) is what the framers of the Honduran constitution were worried about.
IIRC, the 'framers' were the Reagan administration, much like how the post-war Japanese constitution was written by the US as well. This essentially makes it a document imposed on them by an imperial power.
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