DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

Post by Broomstick »

Serafina wrote:
General Zod wrote: As opposed to chemicals that will stop the heart with less dosage? Which doesn't explain your objections about leaving someone crippled for life, which seems nonsensical when the point is to kill them.
And which have been proven not to work, or leave the victim awake, making him die slowly and miserable?
When properly administered the current lethal injection cocktail used in the US DOES, in fact, produce unconsciousness first using a anesthetic which will, when properly administered prevent the condemned from feeling pain.

In practice, there have been two consistent obstacles:

1) Former IV drug users who have shit veins, making it difficult to establish a working IV

2) People who are not trained medical personnel fucking up the administering of the cocktail

#1 should be avoided by a medical history and an exam, including an attempt to find a usable vein, in advance of the execution date. If an IV can not be established then an alternate means may be required and should be available.

#2 is a problem because the vast majority of medical personnel in the US will not participate in an execution for moral reasons, and of those who would be willing, most licensing agencies would revoke their licenses if they did do such a thing. Perhaps personnel who are expected to be part of these executions should get better training in setting up IV's.

The problem is not with the concept, or the cocktail. There are two obstacles to making it work in reality. Either fix those two problems, come up with a better method, or stop the government from killing people.
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

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General Zod wrote:
As opposed to chemicals that will stop the heart with less dosage? Which doesn't explain your objections about leaving someone crippled for life, which seems nonsensical when the point is to kill them.
?
What kind of world do you live in?
"All right mates lets execute him!"
"Right Boss!"
seconds pass
"Drats he did not die the instant we injected him, I guess we'll just set him free then"

No come the fuck on Zod, if 500 MG won't do it, 1,000 MG will. The condemned will be unconscious so that if there is any kind of fuck up, they will be unaware of it. The first dose puts them under(Easy to know from body/weight) and then you apply a megadose to kill them. If it does not do the trick of shutting down their body(Which is what an OD of Morphine does) you give them a second dose and it will sure as hell shut down.

I suppose we could also give them a chloroform coated face mask to wear, seeing as that puts some out in half a second if done right, then simply leave it on and let them choke to death. There are dozens on dozens of ways to kill someone very quickly and painlessly as far as they are concerned. The problem with Lethal Injection at the moment is how needlessly complicated it is and the fact the only drug you need is the sedative, we are not trying to execute Wolverine or the Incredible Hulk here, this is not frigging Comic Books, there is no such thing as total drug immunity. If 100 mg's kills most normal people, and 300 mg kills hard core addicted folks like heavy Heron users, then twice again that dose will kill anyone.

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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

Post by General Zod »

Mr Bean wrote:
General Zod wrote:
As opposed to chemicals that will stop the heart with less dosage? Which doesn't explain your objections about leaving someone crippled for life, which seems nonsensical when the point is to kill them.
?
What kind of world do you live in?
"All right mates lets execute him!"
"Right Boss!"
seconds pass
"Drats he did not die the instant we injected him, I guess we'll just set him free then"

No come the fuck on Zod, if 500 MG won't do it, 1,000 MG will. The condemned will be unconscious so that if there is any kind of fuck up, they will be unaware of it. The first dose puts them under(Easy to know from body/weight) and then you apply a megadose to kill them. If it does not do the trick of shutting down their body(Which is what an OD of Morphine does) you give them a second dose and it will sure as hell shut down.

I suppose we could also give them a chloroform coated face mask to wear, seeing as that puts some out in half a second if done right, then simply leave it on and let them choke to death. There are dozens on dozens of ways to kill someone very quickly and painlessly as far as they are concerned. The problem with Lethal Injection at the moment is how needlessly complicated it is and the fact the only drug you need is the sedative, we are not trying to execute Wolverine or the Incredible Hulk here, this is not frigging Comic Books, there is no such thing as total drug immunity. If 100 mg's kills most normal people, and 300 mg kills hard core addicted folks like heavy Heron users, then twice again that dose will kill anyone.
How long will it take to kill someone with that much morphine again? If the goal is to kill them quickly then morphine won't do it any faster than the cocktail, especially if they have a tolerance. In any case the problem seems to be the application, not the actual drugs themselves.
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

To be exact I will go along with Marina on this:

Leathal Injection: equals slow torture being conducted by untrained individuals (because of that hippocratic oath thing), it just looks nice and pleasant for the audiance.

Firing Squad: nice, clean and prety much instant death provided it's done right, and were not talking English during the Boer War, or the Easter Risings.

Hanging: the modern english method, not the norse, middle eastern, or american racist method, a nice long drop with a specially treated rope, breaks the neck between the 3rd and 4th cervicle vertibre, clean and efficiant. (too bad about them mobs of ignorant fucks giving everyone an opinion of it being a form of slow torture, or those fucking Nazis who did the exact opposite method to make it a form of slow torture.)

and yes, I'm against electrocution, gas chambers, and leathal injection for reasons of latent toxicity and being actual torture to the condemed. Now the question of the application of the death penalty, given the currupt nature of american judicial system, and the barbarism of it's primary supporteres...)
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

of course for my personal prefrence If I could choose my own form of execution.

Could I be in the primary kill zone for a weapon's test? (preferably nuclear, though a FAE would work)
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

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General Zod wrote:
How long will it take to kill someone with that much morphine again? If the goal is to kill them quickly then morphine won't do it any faster than the cocktail, especially if they have a tolerance. In any case the problem seems to be the application, not the actual drugs themselves.
Speed is not the issue, putting them down cheaply and painlessly is. Right now the Lethal injection cost about 90$ per Texas and takes about seven minutes to kill them unless they mess up(Which they sometimes do) in which case it can be a few hours because the Sedative does not put them under. Which is why it's seem bloody obvious if your going with Lethal Injection to just use a sedative that's Lethal in moderate doses. Give them high doses, they go out like lights and the heart starts pumping blood within a minute and the body is dead in under ten. Sure it's not Guillotine in the Public square quick but it's a much faster than the electric chair and much less likely to go wrong than current cocktail methods.

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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

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Broomstick wrote:In practice, there have been two consistent obstacles:

1) Former IV drug users who have shit veins, making it difficult to establish a working IV

2) People who are not trained medical personnel fucking up the administering of the cocktail

#1 should be avoided by a medical history and an exam, including an attempt to find a usable vein, in advance of the execution date. If an IV can not be established then an alternate means may be required and should be available.

#2 is a problem because the vast majority of medical personnel in the US will not participate in an execution for moral reasons, and of those who would be willing, most licensing agencies would revoke their licenses if they did do such a thing. Perhaps personnel who are expected to be part of these executions should get better training in setting up IV's.

The problem is not with the concept, or the cocktail. There are two obstacles to making it work in reality. Either fix those two problems, come up with a better method, or stop the government from killing people.
Funny you should bring this up, as in a slightly-related story, finding a suitable vein has been an issue for one Romell Broom:
September 19, 2009

Prisoner in Ohio Wins a Stay Against a Second Execution Attempt

By BOB DRIEHAUS

CINCINNATI — An Ohio prisoner whose execution was halted after two hours on Tuesday because technicians were unable to find a usable vein that could be injected with lethal drugs won a stay Friday against another attempt to put him to death next week.

The stay, issued by Judge Gregory L. Frost of the Federal District Court in Columbus, expires on Sept. 28.

A hearing on a further stay has been scheduled for that day, but the one that Judge Frost granted Friday could mean a substantial delay at the very least. Defense lawyers and the office of Gov. Ted Strickland said Ohio required that a new execution date be approved by the State Supreme Court once a stay of execution is issued, whether by the state courts or the federal.

That process, said lawyers for the condemned prisoner, Romell Broom, 53, is likely to take months.

Tuesday’s postponement of Mr. Broom’s execution was ordered by Mr. Strickland after technicians at the state prison in Lucasville had tried for more than two hours to maintain an IV connection in order to inject him with lethal drugs. His lawyers argue that among other things, the pain he evidently experienced during that process constituted cruel and unusual punishment.

That was the first time an execution by lethal injection in the United States had failed and been rescheduled for another day.

The effort to execute Mr. Broom, convicted of the rape, abduction and murder of a 14-year-old girl, has drawn wide attention to Ohio’s death chamber.

Dr. Jonathan I. Groner, a professor of medicine at Ohio State University, cites what he calls the Hippocratic paradox: it is doctors who are best qualified to carry out executions by lethal injection, and yet, as medical organizations have periodically reminded them, their doing so is ethically proscribed.

The task of injecting a deadly cocktail of drugs instead falls on execution teams whose training, Dr. Groner said, does not adequately prepare them for prisoners who among other problems may be obese or have veins ravaged by intravenous drug abuse. (In a log reviewed by The Associated Press, Mr. Broom’s executioners attributed their trouble to his past IV drug abuse, use that he has denied.)

“The problem is there’s no Plan B,” said Dr. Groner, an outspoken opponent of the death penalty. “They have a group of individuals who have a certain skill set for inserting IVs. It’s a very low skill level, and some of the inmates are extremely challenging.”

In an affidavit filed Friday with Judge Frost’s court, Mr. Broom described multiple efforts on Tuesday, by people he identified as nurses, to establish an IV in his arms, legs and ankles, sometimes causing him to cry out in pain and leading him to help one of the executioners in the process, in hopes of hastening death.

In between those efforts, the execution team took three breaks. After the third, “I began to cry because I was in pain and my arms were swelling,” Mr. Broom said in the affidavit. “The nurses were placing needles in areas that were already bruised and swollen.”

Ohio’s lethal injection protocol has been modified several times since it was introduced in 1993. In one change, the prison warden now shakes and calls out to the condemned after anesthesia is injected, to establish that he is unconscious before the lethal drugs are administered.

While Ohio has come under heavy criticism for Tuesday’s events and for two ultimately successful but prolonged executions in the last three years, its procedures are similar to those of other states.

Like Ohio, all the other states now using lethal injection employ the same three-drug cocktail originally adopted by Oklahoma, and none have doctors actively involved, said Richard C. Dieter, executive director of the Death Penalty Information Center, in Washington.

In North Carolina, executions have effectively been suspended while the courts wrangle with challenges to the attempt by the state, against the efforts of the North Carolina Medical Board, to allow doctors to assist in placing IVs and other duties.

Missouri employed a doctor, Alan R. Doerhoff, to participate actively in the execution process before a federal judge in 2006 barred him from doing so, citing his dyslexia as a risk to performing his duties, which included preparing the lethal drugs.

Other states allow doctors to certify that death has occurred, but none currently participate in placing IVs or administering the drugs, Mr. Dieter said.

In Ohio, officials refuse to disclose the professions of execution team members, citing a need to protect their anonymity. Julie Walburn, a spokeswoman for the department of corrections, said the official protocol did not call specifically for nurses or other medical professionals to be on the team, only for team members to be trained in IV use and other details of the execution process.

Several court cases have shown that the state’s 12-member execution teams typically comprise two emergency medical technicians and corrections officers trained in IV use and the effects of the drugs.

Asked to respond to accusations that the teams were not qualified, Ms. Walburn said, “We have every confidence in the skills and abilities of the execution team members to carry out their responsibilities in accordance with the law.”

But she said state officials were nonetheless discussing what qualifications were needed, what alternatives to the current training were available and whether the state might incorporate them.
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

Post by The Yosemite Bear »

And in at least one case they forgot to remove the Turniquit(sp) from the IV arm, resulting in the guy going batshit, until they finally unstrapped him and he died. Also there's been cases where people have had alergic reactions to one or more of the drugs.
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

Post by Julhelm »

Broomstick wrote: As a practical matter - quite a few people would hold execution to a higher standard than "mere" life without parole for the simple fact you can't correct a mistaken execution.
I understand you can't correct a mistaken execution, but how do you 'correct' a mistaken life sentence? Especially with US prisons in mind where a stint most certainly will leave a person traumatized for life, if not dead.

Even here where we have humane prisons, how do you 'correct' taking decades of someone's life away from them?
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

Post by MKSheppard »

Actually, I have no moral objections to executing this guy. I just hate that we can't execute his accomplice, that fucking kid Malvo. Fucking too young bullshit.

There's one (1) shitton of incontrovertible proof that Malvo and Co did these murders, shootings, etc in the DC area. So what the fuck is the hold up or squeamishness here people?

It's not like Virginia is gonna OMFG EXECUTE AN INNOCANT PARSON! :roll:
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

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Julhelm wrote:
Broomstick wrote: As a practical matter - quite a few people would hold execution to a higher standard than "mere" life without parole for the simple fact you can't correct a mistaken execution.
I understand you can't correct a mistaken execution, but how do you 'correct' a mistaken life sentence? Especially with US prisons in mind where a stint most certainly will leave a person traumatized for life, if not dead.

Even here where we have humane prisons, how do you 'correct' taking decades of someone's life away from them?
You can "correct" it in the sense that if the convicted person is later found to be innocent (as has happened) that person can be released. In some cases, the person has also received monetary compensation for the years in prison, but that's rather rare.

And, contrary to rumor, not ALL US prisons are hellholes. None of them are fun places to be, of course, but they aren't all cesspits of violence. As usual, the worst ones gets the most publicity.
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

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The Yosemite Bear wrote:Hanging: the modern english method, not the norse, middle eastern, or american racist method, a nice long drop with a specially treated rope, breaks the neck between the 3rd and 4th cervicle vertibre, clean and efficiant. (too bad about them mobs of ignorant fucks giving everyone an opinion of it being a form of slow torture, or those fucking Nazis who did the exact opposite method to make it a form of slow torture.)
Funny you should mention this, considering that a lot of the Nazi executed by the allies slowly strangled to death. So the modern english method is not really that good.
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

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Wasn't that done out of malice, rather than botching the hangings, though? The long drop has it's share of problems, I don't doubt that, but I seem to recall reading somewhere that Albert Pierrepoint (Britain's 'last' hangman) was appalled at what he saw as the unprofessionalism of the American executioners because of how they sought to cause suffering rather than carry out a proper hanging.
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

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MKSheppard wrote:Actually, I have no moral objections to executing this guy. I just hate that we can't execute his accomplice, that fucking kid Malvo. Fucking too young bullshit.

There's one (1) shitton of incontrovertible proof that Malvo and Co did these murders, shootings, etc in the DC area. So what the fuck is the hold up or squeamishness here people?

It's not like Virginia is gonna OMFG EXECUTE AN INNOCANT PARSON! :roll:
Supreme court ruled we cant you fucking sociopath. I take it you are all for executing 7 year olds as well? Like it or not, we have to draw a line in the sand when it comes to executing people (as if state sponsored murder was not already objectionable...) and that line in the sand just so happens to be the same age as most of our other lines in the sand. 18.
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

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I don't understand why you pro-death penalty types even care about the suffering aspect. The moment he's dead it is as though that pain never happened, seeing as he isn't exactly going to remember it. So just do what is most efficient; bury/cremate him alive. Two birds with one stone, right? If you really insist, you can knock him out with drugs first.
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

Post by MKSheppard »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Supreme court ruled we cant you fucking sociopath
Fuck off ye cunt -- You're not the one who was worried sick one night that your brother was out late during the time that Boyd and Malvo were doing their sniper spree.
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

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open_sketchbook wrote:I don't understand why you pro-death penalty types even care about the suffering aspect. The moment he's dead it is as though that pain never happened, seeing as he isn't exactly going to remember it. So just do what is most efficient; bury/cremate him alive. Two birds with one stone, right? If you really insist, you can knock him out with drugs first.
A sufficiently heavy guillotine would be the most efficient, but unfortunately we can't use it anymore.
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

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open_sketchbook wrote:I don't understand why you pro-death penalty types even care about the suffering aspect. The moment he's dead it is as though that pain never happened, seeing as he isn't exactly going to remember it. So just do what is most efficient; bury/cremate him alive. Two birds with one stone, right? If you really insist, you can knock him out with drugs first.
Good god, man. I'm pro death for certain crimes, but I still believe in giving them some goddamn dignity on the way out! Even forcibly harvesting their organs is better than burying them alive in that regards!
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

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Ah, but my solution deals with the body too! There's no icky blood or anything; just either slow, protracted, isolated death by asphyxiation, or a horrific burny one. We were already going to do one or the other; I just cut out the middleman. Can there be an non-sentimental argument against this? I think not.
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

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open_sketchbook wrote:Ah, but my solution deals with the body too! There's no icky blood or anything; just either slow, protracted, isolated death by asphyxiation, or a horrific burny one. We were already going to do one or the other; I just cut out the middleman. Can there be an non-sentimental argument against this? I think not.
A slow death when there are quicker methods is not efficient by definition. You're babbling nonsense. :P
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

Post by Master of Ossus »

Alyrium Denryle wrote:Supreme court ruled we cant you fucking sociopath. I take it you are all for executing 7 year olds as well? Like it or not, we have to draw a line in the sand when it comes to executing people (as if state sponsored murder was not already objectionable...) and that line in the sand just so happens to be the same age as most of our other lines in the sand. 18.
I'm not familiar with the ruling on this, but isn't the "line in the sand" usually legal sanity and the ability to understand that the criminal conduct is outside the bounds of social standards for conduct?
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

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Since when is the speed by which the convict expires has any bearing on the cost or time necessary to do so? As I said before, the man would have been cremated or buried anyway, so we are actually removing a step rather than adding anything unnecessary, such as executions.
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

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If we're after 100% efficiency, why not just feed him directly into a mulcher and reuse the remains as fertilizer/food for other convicts/whatever else you can use a ground up dead man for. Go all the way or go home when it comes to corpse efficiency!
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

Post by open_sketchbook »

Indeed, why not! If you're going to kill somebody and talk about efficient, you have to be prepared to go all the way. For example, you could have doctors that have lost their license's due to malpractice or whatever else carve the guy up and take his organs! Employment AND beneficial output!
Last edited by open_sketchbook on 2009-09-23 11:44am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: DC Sniper Execution Date Set -- 10 November

Post by Grandmaster Jogurt »

open_sketchbook wrote:I don't understand why you pro-death penalty types even care about the suffering aspect. The moment he's dead it is as though that pain never happened, seeing as he isn't exactly going to remember it. So just do what is most efficient; bury/cremate him alive. Two birds with one stone, right? If you really insist, you can knock him out with drugs first.
By this logic, the moment anyone dies it is as though all the suffering a person experienced never happened, since he or she cannot remember it after that point. So why bother trying to increase quality of life, since everyone dies? And if you drug a person so they forget what you did to them, it's as if it never happened, since he or she can't remember it! So safe-sex date rape is okay if they're drugged hard enough.
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