Competant Ancient Races

[Lord of the Abyss]

In the Schlockverse both the Dark Matter entities and the Gate Keepers have had their asses kicked around by uppity humans and their allies, upsetting plans that they've had in motion for hundreds of thousands of years. Therefore they totally and absolutely don't count as competent.

The Gatekeepers' trouble is that they weren't in possession of all the relevant facts; their plan inevitably came unraveled once teraport technology went open-source, because their entire goal was "prevent the rise of teraport technology." and the sheer level of vigilance they'd have needed to stop it was quite high. Not being that hyperalert after tens of millenia of "all quiet on the teraport front" doesn't prove collective incompetence. Individual incompetence, possibly; some specific Gatekeepers may have screwed up badly. But individual incompetence doesn't require collective incompetence as a species.

Likewise the Paanuri; their plans pretty much boiled down to "don't do teraports because they eff up our living space, and we won't kill you all."

Actually, the Paanuri intended to kill them all anyway. And the Gatekeepers were suckered by them into putting huge resources and effort and time into building the galactic core engine which was in fact a trap by the Paanuri; in reality when activated it would destroy all life in the galaxy. And did, in the original timeline. And only the humans and Petey saved the Gatekeepers from blowing themselves and everyone else up; so that pretty much disqualifies the Gatekeepers as all that competent.

[Ford Prefect]

So we're defining 'competant' as 'never make any mistakes ever'? I realise that blowing up the galaxy is a pretty big mistake, but being outwitted by your essential equal is not really all that negative.

[Simon_Jester]

Actually, the Paanuri intended to kill them all anyway.

Yes, but that was after the teraport was reinvented; from the Paanuri perspective, the Gatekeepers broke their side of the bargain and earned a "you have failed me for the last time;" the most effective way the Paanuri had of stopping the spread of teraport technology was to blow up the offending galaxy using baryonic puppets.

You have a point about the Gatekeepers' being inept in letting themselves become the Paanuri's baryonic puppets, though since the Paanuri are more powerful and intelligent as a species than they are, I'm not sure that makes them truly incompetent. Losing when confronted with superior physical or mental force does not mean that your own physical and mental forces are weak.

As Ford says, losing to an equal is unlikely to prove incompetence. Losing to a superior is even less likely.

[Lord of the Abyss]

It's the fact that they built a vast, extremely powerful machine that they apparently didn't understand using knowledge they got from genocidal enemies that qualifies them as incompetent in my opinion. After some searching I found this strip. They were given the designs for the core device 100,000 years ago; long, long before Kevyn and his teraport. So Gatekeepers have been working on a machine they didn't understand for a very long time, and for at least that long the Paan'uri intended to destroy the Milky Way galaxy.

[Marcus Aurelius]

Just remembered one fairly competent ancient race: the Tarseuh in the Uplift universe. They wisely managed gather a powerful alliance of seven semi-retired races and then proceeded to wipe off the horribly anti-ecological Lions (an alliance of two militaristic and one technologically very capable race), which were pretty much ruling over the Five Galaxies at the time and breaking nearly all the Progenitor and Galactic Institute traditions.

By the way, you just got to love the Uplift Universe, since not taking proper care of natural habitats can get your race exterminated. Even an attempt to build something as abominable as an Ecumenopolis would get your race to major trouble even if it was on your home world.

[Stofsk]

By the way, you just got to love the Uplift Universe, since not taking proper care of natural habitats can get your race exterminated. Even an attempt to build something as abominable as an Ecumenopolis would get your race to major trouble even if it was on your home world.

Heh, I tried reading Brin and gave up half way through Startide Rising. It was an interesting and compelling idea, that somehow bored the shit out of me.

[Balrog]

So we're defining 'competant' as 'never make any mistakes ever'? I realise that blowing up the galaxy is a pretty big mistake, but being outwitted by your essential equal is not really all that negative.

No, competent =/= infallible. It would depend on the manner in which the ancient race declined/was defeated/etc. Personally I would view the Vorlons and Shadows as being competent. Their only big mistake was losing sight of their original purpose in guiding the other races, turning it into a Cold War of ideologies fought mostly through proxies. It's not like they lost to Space Zombies.

That's pretty reasonable. Sure they were suspicious at first. For the first few centuries. Maybe millenia. But over time, with everything seeming to work fine, with no hint of the real builders, complacency set in. Civillians colonised the station and the population increased. Eventually political and practical pressures forced the capital there. Not that it would've made that much difference if they hadn't.

Still doesn't make any sense. Here's a station, built by someone long ago, about which you know nothing. You're not sure how many of its systems work, there are parts of the station you can't even access, and it's maintained by creatures, again, about which you know nothing. Does this logically make sense as a place in which to place your seat of government? If Atlantis suddenly appeared in the middle of the Mediterranean, which is more likely: it gets cordoned off as a historical site to study, or the UN moves its headquarters there?

As for the warnings to future races, you'd think they would leave something behind other than magic beacons that shoot incomprehensible visions into your brain. Like a message saying "The Citadel, it's a trap!"

[Simon_Jester]

It's the fact that they built a vast, extremely powerful machine that they apparently didn't understand using knowledge they got from genocidal enemies that qualifies them as incompetent in my opinion. After some searching I found this strip. They were given the designs for the core device 100,000 years ago; long, long before Kevyn and his teraport. So Gatekeepers have been working on a machine they didn't understand for a very long time, and for at least that long the Paan'uri intended to destroy the Milky Way galaxy.

You're right; I was wrong.

OK, the Gatekeepers can reasonably be called collectively incompetent in that case. However, the Paanuri can't; they didn't actively attack the Milky Way because they knew the Gatekeepers could always break out the teraport technology and start fighting back- the war between them ended in a truce last time, remember? So this was a passive-aggressive gambit aimed at eliminating a long-term problem that was, broadly speaking, already under control. And it worked too, at least until the Fleetmind and the rogue teraport engineer got together and managed to pull a time travel gambit.

[Stark]

Still doesn't make any sense. Here's a station, built by someone long ago, about which you know nothing. You're not sure how many of its systems work, there are parts of the station you can't even access, and it's maintained by creatures, again, about which you know nothing. Does this logically make sense as a place in which to place your seat of government? If Atlantis suddenly appeared in the middle of the Mediterranean, which is more likely: it gets cordoned off as a historical site to study, or the UN moves its headquarters there?

As for the warnings to future races, you'd think they would leave something behind other than magic beacons that shoot incomprehensible visions into your brain. Like a message saying "The Citadel, it's a trap!"

Don't forget they not only have no idea how it works - they PROHIBIT anyone from trying to find out. Because the Asari are competent! And the Turians are the best spacebattle guys, which is why their captain was last seen pointing at the screen instead of saying 'hey lets avoid that giant robot'.

In the story Hawx and I created because ME sucked, this was because the Council actually knew how it worked (they'd be insane not to) but the public accepted the 'don't fuck with the keepers' thing so there was no reason to explain it. Turns out the setting is based on hegemony, even if the hegemony is not obvious?

[Ford Prefect]

I always assumed that the banning of Citadel research was simply civillian/non-Council. I mean, they certainly know how to operate things like the opening and closing mechanism and whatnot. The fact they have no concrete answers about anything is just a testament to the fact that they shouldn't be living there.

[The Yosemite Bear]

Lovecraft Cats: Older then the Elder Gods, and they remember things that the EG have forgotten. However it takes quite a lot of them working togethe to do much, but they can reshape reality here from the Dreamlands.

HHG Marvin: Thanks to time Travel the manic/depressive robot is older then the universe it's self. Also knows too much to ever be able to enjoy life.
HHG Mice: all of humanity and life on earth is a program for their need to understand "god" and the mysteries of life.

Berzerker, Berzerkers: ok, your enemy makes a race of Von Neuumman machines bent on destroying all organic live, and building more of their warfleet. What do you do? Reprogram a cluster of them to protect organic life. A small race of machines fighting a guerrila war against their brothers and usually using misdirction and other tactics to be the good Von Neumman warmachines.

[Samuel]

Berzerker, Berzerkers: ok, your enemy makes a race of Von Neuumman machines bent on destroying all organic live, and building more of their warfleet. What do you do? Reprogram a cluster of them to protect organic life. A small race of machines fighting a guerrila war against their brothers and usually using misdirction and other tactics to be the good Von Neumman warmachines.

I just find the Beserkers hilariously inefficient. Build up overwhelming industrial might, then attack.

[Jade Falcon]

How would you rank the ancients from the Freespace games, what little you know about them. They seem to have had a huge empire and only had a bad day when they encountered the Shivans. Even when they were just about gone they managed to discover a vulnerability.

For that matter, how do the Shivans themselves stack up?

[Peptuck]

I always assumed that the banning of Citadel research was simply civillian/non-Council. I mean, they certainly know how to operate things like the opening and closing mechanism and whatnot.

Research into the Citadel isn't prohibited. Interfering with the Keepers' operations is what is prohibited - which, by extension involves researching the Keepers, because it will "bother" them. Yay incompetent civilian bureaucracy! (hey, if we're going to bash ME's incompetence Council, bash it for the right reasons )

Though I personally find it difficult to believe that the Citadel's "core" is still inaccessible after a couple thousand years' of attempted entry. Reaper technology is not that advanced.

[Darkdrium]

Man, fuck the reapers. Can anyone come up with an explanation as to why they'd want to constantly repeat a cycle of genocide on any species that achieves a certain level of technology? That "You cannot possibly hope to understand our motives." bullshit does not sit well with me.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Man, fuck the reapers. Can anyone come up with an explanation as to why they'd want to constantly repeat a cycle of genocide on any species that achieves a certain level of technology? That "You cannot possibly hope to understand our motives." bullshit does not sit well with me.

Stamp out the competition before it gets to be a threat. Makes perfect sense actually.

[Darkdrium]

Yeah, except all they do is stay in stasis just outside the galaxy just waiting until the next batch of poor saps manages to create galactic society. Not a constructive use of time if you ask me.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Yeah, except all they do is stay in stasis just outside the galaxy just waiting until the next batch of poor saps manages to create galactic society. Not a constructive use of time if you ask me.

First of all, that's seperate from "Reasons to wipe out technologically advanced species".

There are still a wide variety of explanations for your second claim, malfunctions, or the Reapers being malfunctioning sentry drones for some creator race, destroying potential threats to their vanished masters even after said masters dissapeared.

[Simon_Jester]

Lovecraft Cats: Older then the Elder Gods, and they remember things that the EG have forgotten. However it takes quite a lot of them working togethe to do much, but they can reshape reality here from the Dreamlands.

How do you get a lot of cats working together? Neil Gaiman already covered this one.

[Junghalli]

Man, fuck the reapers. Can anyone come up with an explanation as to why they'd want to constantly repeat a cycle of genocide on any species that achieves a certain level of technology? That "You cannot possibly hope to understand our motives." bullshit does not sit well with me.

Stamp out the competition before it gets to be a threat. Makes perfect sense actually.

The problem is it would make more sense to wipe out all intelligent life in the galaxy once and then systematically destroy every complex ecology in the galaxy so new ones couldn't re-evolve (building a giant mirror in orbit of every complex ecology planet and raising its temperature to >100 C would probably do the trick, although there are probably more efficient possible methods, like seeding them with something like Behemoth or Little Boy). Waiting for technological societies to re-emerge and wiping them out again and again is less efficient and increases the risk that one of them may find a way to defeat you. You'd have to repeat the operation every so often this way too as new Earthlike worlds form and devestated ones recover, but this way barring extragalactic invasion the most advanced "enemy" you will ever have to worry about is probably going to be something that makes an earthworm look advanced by comparison.

Speaking of competent ancient races, what about the Elder Things? Their track record isn't perfect but they seemed to do pretty well against a very hostile universe.

[Stark]

The Reapers fulfill a stupid goal (in which 99% of them sit around doing nothing for millions of years) in a stupid way for stupid reasons and are stupid enough to clue people in and stupid enough to be trivially defeated in a single engagement.

Seriously, the Reapers might have been threatening if Sovereign hadn't been dumber than my dog. YOU CAN NEVER STOP ME... oh unless you just spam me with missiles until I die.

It's because the ME writing is so good that the 'masters of space combat' Turians couldn't work that little trick out.

The Elder Things suck because they totally degenerated into total impotence. It took fucking ages, though, but really not too sharp. The Great Race are far more competent.

[Ford Prefect]

Man, fuck the reapers. Can anyone come up with an explanation as to why they'd want to constantly repeat a cycle of genocide on any species that achieves a certain level of technology? That "You cannot possibly hope to understand our motives." bullshit does not sit well with me.

Everyone needs a hobby.

[Simon_Jester]

Man, fuck the reapers. Can anyone come up with an explanation as to why they'd want to constantly repeat a cycle of genocide on any species that achieves a certain level of technology? That "You cannot possibly hope to understand our motives." bullshit does not sit well with me.

Everyone needs a hobby.

Maybe they just want everyone to leave them alone while they sit in giant computronium bricks in space and play highly advanced versions of World of Warcraft.

[TheLostVikings]

Man, fuck the reapers. Can anyone come up with an explanation as to why they'd want to constantly repeat a cycle of genocide on any species that achieves a certain level of technology? That "You cannot possibly hope to understand our motives." bullshit does not sit well with me.

Everyone needs a hobby.

Maybe they just want everyone to leave them alone while they sit in giant computronium bricks in space and play highly advanced versions of World of Warcraft.

In fact, killing off all intelligent life in the galaxy every few billion years is their version of WoW. Having to wait a few billion years for the "respawn" probably wouldn't be all that long for immortals.

[Nephtys]

Or it could take FOREVER, given that they're machines who can probably calculate and think at painful speeds.

Telepathic machines that nonetheless, have crappy technology and a flagship that can be capped by a single transport ship.