Music store to arm employees

[Glocksman]

Story

An East Side business that has been the target of vandals or burglars several times over the last few months plans to arm its employees to combat the uptick in crime.

Brad Linzy, a manager at Moore Music, said the Morgan Avenue business has had its front windows broken three times in as many months. On one occasion, someone got inside and stole an expensive guitar.

The latest incident happened Thursday morning.

"We're fed up with it," Linzy said.

"We're going to stand up for ourselves. This is still the United States, and we have a Second Amendment. So, we plan on exercising it in defense of our property and our customers."

Evansville Police Department records show three incidents at the store since July 13.

In the early morning hours of that day, someone smashed the front window with a large rock, but the person was gone when officers arrived.

On Tuesday, the replacement window was smashed, and the burglar went inside and took an electric guitar worth $1,350.

Another window was broken Thursday.

No arrests have been made.

Pat Moore, the store owner, said his employees approached him about buying a gun to offer some kind of protection against the crime. Even though none of the incidents happened when the store was open, Moore said it's important to be ready if something does happen during normal business hours.

He said he also was motivated by other crimes, such as the armed robbery Wednesday night of Apollo Liquors a couple of miles west of his store.

"It's time we take a stand on all of this," he said.

"It's getting old. It really is."

Officials with the business still are trying to determine what type of gun to purchase. But, Linzy said, they already have read up on Indiana law, which stipulates no license or permit is needed to be armed in a person's place of business.

The business is offering a reward for information leading to the arrest of the person or persons involved in the previous crimes. It also likely will add bars to its windows.

Linzy, who suspects the crimes may be a reflection of the faltering economy, said it's unfortunate the store has to take such actions.

"Music is all about peace and love and harmony more than anything," he said.

"But we feel like we're being assaulted."

A few thoughts.

1. The gun or guns won't be any use in deterring the 'smash and grab' thefts the store has suffered.
2. If he plans on arming the employees, some rudimentary training in both marksmanship/gun handling and when it is appropriate (i.e., don't shoot shoplifters) to use deadly force is in order.
3. If an employee is unwilling to learn and train, don't arm them, also don't force someone to carry if they aren't willing to do so.
4. Personally I'd have kept my mouth shut and quietly armed my employees rather than make a big public announcement of it. Discretion is the better part of valor.


I support his right to arm his employees but I do question the wisdom in literally announcing it in the newspaper.

[Thanas]

I can imagine him doing it out of the hope that it would deter most standard thiefs.

Of course, the downside is that crazies will now see his store as a great target. And anyone who seriously wants to rob the place will now come in with guns out - aka he just upped the escalation level.

[General Zod]

This sounds like a stupid idea. Wouldn't it be better to just, hire a security guard or something? I really hope they have good liability insurance though, one stray shot during a daylight robbery is all they'll need for a massive lawsuit.

[Azazal]

The article didn't show the store itself, did a search and found what looked to be a picture of the store on their face book page. Looks like there are 6 large windows on the front, seems like the easier and more prudent long term option would be to get some security bars over those. But hey that's my easy way out, guess that's not cool enough.

[Stuart]

I support his right to arm his employees but I do question the wisdom in literally announcing it in the newspaper.

Doesn't this really depend on his objective? If his intent is to kill the perps, then an unannounced arming is the best way to go but if his intent is to deter the criminals, then the more noise he makes about the fact that everybody in the store is armed the better. One can draw a parallel with speed control here; the best way to catch people who break the speed limit is to use unmarked police cruisers but the best way to slow down traffic is to use VERY ostentatiously marked cruisers.

Returning to this specific case, the intent of the perp is, after all, to make some easy money. He/they doesn't want to rob that specific store, they want to rob any store that's an easy target. If they know that a store is not an easy target, they'll go somewhere else. That's why, if I was the guy owning the store in question I'd put a big notice up in the window that says "The staff in this store are armed to the teeth and know how to use their weapons. The owner of the store next door is a Democrat who supports gun control. We promise we will respect his beliefs by not using our guns to defend him." (joke of course).

[Stuart]

And anyone who seriously wants to rob the place will now come in with guns out - aka he just upped the escalation level.

It doesn't work like that. The thieves don't want a gun battle, there's no easy money in a shoot-out. They'll go to a different target. The same applies to home invasions; knowledge that a home-owner is armed doesn't mean the bad guys come in guns blazing, it means they find another house where the home-owner isn't armed (or go to houses that are unoccupied).

Remember criminals are capitalists, their motivations are purely profit-orientated

[Glocksman]

Interesting point.
I guess I'm looking at it from the standpoint of a CCW holder, where concealed means concealed and advertising the fact that you're armed is considered a bad idea.

By the way, this Democrat's idea of gun control is a 3 inch group shot rapid fire at 25 yards with a .45 Gold Cup.
Welcome to Indiana, where even the Hoosier Democrats* support RKBA.


*There are a few exceptions but they tend to be up in Broomstick's part of the state and not mine.

[General Zod]

And anyone who seriously wants to rob the place will now come in with guns out - aka he just upped the escalation level.

It doesn't work like that. The thieves don't want a gun battle, there's no easy money in a shoot-out. They'll go to a different target. The same applies to home invasions; knowledge that a home-owner is armed doesn't mean the bad guys come in guns blazing, it means they find another house where the home-owner isn't armed (or go to houses that are unoccupied).

Remember criminals are capitalists, their motivations are purely profit-orientated

This just means they start attacking the store at night when everyone's gone home.

[Glocksman]

And anyone who seriously wants to rob the place will now come in with guns out - aka he just upped the escalation level.

It doesn't work like that. The thieves don't want a gun battle, there's no easy money in a shoot-out. They'll go to a different target. The same applies to home invasions; knowledge that a home-owner is armed doesn't mean the bad guys come in guns blazing, it means they find another house where the home-owner isn't armed (or go to houses that are unoccupied).

Remember criminals are capitalists, their motivations are purely profit-orientated

This just means they start attacking the store at night when everyone's gone home.

Which is exactly the kind of robberies the store is suffering from in the first place.
While I support his right to arm his employees, I can't help but think burglar bars, Lexan windows, or some other form of premises security would be more effective than arming his workforce.

[General Zod]

Which is exactly the kind of robberies the store is suffering from in the first place.
While I support his right to arm his employees, I can't help but think burglar bars, Lexan windows, or some other form of premises security would be more effective than arming his workforce.

Not to mention smarter. Arming employees is a disaster waiting to happen.

[Stuart]

This just means they start attacking the store at night when everyone's gone home.

Which means there's nobody in the store so nobody gets killed. All too often, if there are people in a store when a robbery goes down, they get lined up and killed. Eliminate the witnesses you see. in contrast, having the store robbed at night when nobody is around is a Good Thing.

By the way, on the liability point, I think this varies from state to state, but the general rule is that if the perps try a robbery, there's a firefight and a passer-by gets whacked, liability falls on the perps regardless of who actually fired the fatal shot. I'm reasonably certain in some places, the perp can get topped for a death under those circumstances even if he didn't fire the fatal shot. I suspect a lot depends on the actual circumstances though.

Not to mention smarter. Arming employees is a disaster waiting to happen.

I disagree. Any store robbery is a disaster waiting to happen. Arming qualified employees is a good way of averting a disaster. I've got personal reasons for knowing that (not discussable at this time).

[Stuart]

While I support his right to arm his employees, I can't help but think burglar bars, Lexan windows, or some other form of premises security would be more effective than arming his workforce.

Problem with this kind of passive defense is that it increases the probability of a daylight attack when the store is fuill of people. If the bad guys can't get in, they're likely to come back when the store is open. And then we have a potential massacre about to happen.

[Shroom Man 777]

Again, what's wrong with armed security guards? The banks here routinely employ rent-a-cops totting M-4s and one of them even has a USAS-12 automatic shotgun.

[Stormin]

What sane minimum wage employee would want to get into a gun fight to protect his employers stuff anyways? Seems a pretty stupid idea, if they need armed security it should be hired.

[Samuel]

Don't smart robbers usually avoid daylight hours anyway? At the least you have to deal with traffic which makes escaping more difficult. Or are the people who are responsible for these attacks probably high school drop outs?

[Eulogy]

What sane minimum wage employee would want to get into a gun fight to protect his employers stuff anyways? Seems a pretty stupid idea, if they need armed security it should be hired.

Sane employees will want to protect their own lives. Stuart is right about witnesses being shot; employees won't take chances when there's a sack of shit robbing their store. They may not care about their boss' merchandise but they WILL care about not being killed (or wishing they were dead), and they will kill the robbers in order to stay alive. Besides, they don't know if the robber plans on shooting up everything anyway or lays down a bomb or something (criminals aren't the most rational or intelligent predators).

Don't smart robbers usually avoid daylight hours anyway? At the least you have to deal with traffic which makes escaping more difficult. Or are the people who are responsible for these attacks probably high school drop outs?

You're assuming the criminal in question is sane or smart. For all you know, the robber is a junkie wanting to get his next fix.

This just means they start attacking the store at night when everyone's gone home.

Which means there's nobody in the store so nobody gets killed. All too often, if there are people in a store when a robbery goes down, they get lined up and killed. Eliminate the witnesses you see. in contrast, having the store robbed at night when nobody is around is a Good Thing.

Which means that the closed circuit cameras can gather the evidence needed to put away the fuckers who do rob at night.

It just goes to show that pacifism is neither feasible nor smart.

[General Zod]

Which means that the closed circuit cameras can gather the evidence needed to put away the fuckers who do rob at night.

It just goes to show that pacifism is neither feasible nor smart.

It doesn't have anything to do with pacifism. It has to do with the employees being competent enough to handle a firearm to not shoot someone besides the burglar or make things worse. Frankly hiring a trained armed guard would be better than arming employees.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

The store was getting broken into and robbed at night when nobody was there. So the proposed solution is to openly advertise the fact that now, at night when there's nobody there, there's a chance that there are free guns laying unattended in the store (assuming the owner keeps them there, rather than taking them home or letting employees take them home every night).

Yeah, that'll work.

[MKSheppard]

The store was getting broken into and robbed at night when nobody was there. So the proposed solution is to openly advertise the fact that now, at night when there's nobody there, there's a chance that there are free guns laying unattended in the store (assuming the owner keeps them there, rather than taking them home or letting employees take them home every night).

Yeah, that'll work.

Because people just leave guns laying around? The cheapest gun you can get that's reliable is $300-$500. Multiply that by several employees, and then by a few spares for broken ones; etc; and that adds up to a not insignificant number. The solution is to put them in the cash box safe at the end of the day, and take them out at the beginning of the day.

[Stuart]

Again, what's wrong with armed security guards? The banks here routinely employ rent-a-cops totting M-4s and one of them even has a USAS-12 automatic shotgun.

Expense basically. A small business runs close to the line, hiring security guards is adding three or four extra employees to the payroll and that's enough to put a small business under. Also, shortage of suitable employees. There's a shortage of people who can be trusted for high-end security (and toting M4s or semi-auto shotguns is very high end). Most such security guards are time-expired police officers on a retirement job. Most mall-type security guards are there for appearances only, they don't even carry guns. Even so, if every store hired some, the pool of suitable applicants runs dry very quickly. Finally, the security guards may stage the robbery. After all, bodyguards are responsible for an awful lot of kidnappings.

What sane minimum wage employee would want to get into a gun fight to protect his employers stuff anyways? Seems a pretty stupid idea, if they need armed security it should be hired.

A sane employee who wants to live. Standard McDonalds robbery, burst in, empty the till, herd the staff into the kitchen, make them lie down and shoot them in the head. Leaving the girl working as a cashier until last and raping her before blowing out her brains is an optional extra.

Don't smart robbers usually avoid daylight hours anyway? At the least you have to deal with traffic which makes escaping more difficult. Or are the people who are responsible for these attacks probably high school drop outs?

Depends. Most robberies seem to be timed for around closing time. That way the store is relatively empty and the till is full of cash. Late night robberies are aimed mostly at stock since the till will be emptied when the store closes. However, most perps want money. Stealing goods means an extra stage in the proces, selling the thieved items for cash - and perps are well aware most fences are also police informers. perps want cahs and that's in the till - hence the robbery when the store is open.

It doesn't have anything to do with pacifism. It has to do with the employees being competent enough to handle a firearm to not shoot someone besides the burglar or make things worse.

It's been stipulated throughout that the Armed Citizens should be qualified to handle their weapons. In most jurisdictions, that's an integral part of getting a CCW. But, given track record of robberies and the prevalence of the goods stolen/employees slaughtered combo, it's not going to get any worse for said employees. Even if the perps don't intend to kill them, the staff have no way of knowing that.

Should be noted by the way, that usually the sight of a gun in the hands of a potential victim will scare the perp off. Say again, perps aren't in the business of getting into gunfights, they're into the business of stealing money. Just the sight of a gun and they're gone.

By the way, another problem with security guards. If the store has enough goodies to make a gunfight worthwhile, guess who gets the first load of buckshot. Hint, not the perps, not the customers.

The store was getting broken into and robbed at night when nobody was there. So the proposed solution is to openly advertise the fact that now, at night when there's nobody there, there's a chance that there are free guns laying unattended in the store (assuming the owner keeps them there, rather than taking them home or letting employees take them home every night).

Sorry, not the case. If somebody has a gun, they carry it. That's what a CCW means. There will be no free guns left laying around unattended (that's illegal by the way).

Yeah, that'll work.

Yes, it will. Works very well. Either the crime never happens because the perp goes elsewhere or it stops halfway through when the perp finds himself staring at the business end of gun barrel (and promptly wets himself).

Because people just leave guns laying around? The cheapest gun you can get that's reliable is $300-$500. Multiply that by several employees, and then by a few spares for broken ones; etc; and that adds up to a not insignificant number. The solution is to put them in the cash box safe at the end of the day, and take them out at the beginning of the day.

Or install a good gun safe with a direct alarm. That'll do it. Although, thinking about it, robbing a music store to get a gun is rather like stealing a newspaper because your car needs gas.

[General Zod]

It's been stipulated throughout that the Armed Citizens should be qualified to handle their weapons. In most jurisdictions, that's an integral part of getting a CCW. But, given track record of robberies and the prevalence of the goods stolen/employees slaughtered combo, it's not going to get any worse for said employees. Even if the perps don't intend to kill them, the staff have no way of knowing that.

Should doesn't always translate into "are". But most of these robberies are happening at night like Oni said, so getting the employees to carry guns isn't really going to do a whole lot of good for prevention if they happen when nobody's there.

Should be noted by the way, that usually the sight of a gun in the hands of a potential victim will scare the perp off. Say again, perps aren't in the business of getting into gunfights, they're into the business of stealing money. Just the sight of a gun and they're gone.

Unless they're hopped up on something, or just really fucking stupid.

[PhilosopherOfSorts]

Shep I think you're over estimating the number of guns you need to defend the store. You only really need one, maybe two, kept at the counter, where there should always be at least one employee.

I recomend a shotgun, using the beanbag rounds that riot cops use. Good deterance, less chance of being charged with negligent homicide.

[The Romulan Republic]

A sane employee who wants to live. Standard McDonalds robbery, burst in, empty the till, herd the staff into the kitchen, make them lie down and shoot them in the head. Leaving the girl working as a cashier until last and raping her before blowing out her brains is an optional extra.

Wait, are you seriously claiming that a standard robbery involves the execution-style murder of all employees in a business?

I'm not saying this hasn't happened, but I really don't think that mass-murder is the typical procedure in robberies. Of course, you are welcome to provide statistics that prove otherwise, if you can find them.

[Stuart]

Should doesn't always translate into "are". But most of these robberies are happening at night like Oni said, so getting the employees to carry guns isn't really going to do a whole lot of good for prevention if they happen when nobody's there.

If the robbery takes place at night in an empty store then the gun-carrying policy has worked. The robbery is taking place when the store is empty. By the way, that means no cash and nobody innocent in the way.

Unless they're hopped up on something, or just really fucking stupid.

Not common and probably not if they're doing a store over. If they are hopped up, then the chance of a massacre goes up exponentially.

Wait, are you seriously claiming that a standard robbery involves the execution-style murder of all employees in a business? I'm not saying this hasn't happened, but I really don't think that mass-murder is the typical procedure in robberies. Of course, you are welcome to provide statistics that prove otherwise, if you can find them.

Take a look at TDCJ website and read the details of the offenses for which people are on death row. Then follow it up with every other DCJ website (the Clark County one HERE is good. At least half and probably more are on people who robbed a store and then killed the store clerk(s) to eliminate the witness(es). It may not be every robbery but are you prepared to bet your life that a criminal robbing your store isn't going to kill you? And if you're not, why should you demand that somebody else should take that risk?

[General Zod]

If the robbery takes place at night in an empty store then the gun-carrying policy has worked. The robbery is taking place when the store is empty. By the way, that means no cash and nobody innocent in the way.

. . .I take it you didn't actually read the article. They stole guitars worth a good chunk of change, and they were robbing the store at night already.