The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[Stuart]

The same thing that happens if you seek out revenge while still alive, I expect: You get put on trial and punished. I can't see a forcible relocation to hell changing this - well, except that (new, on earth) murders will have to be considered much smaller crimes than they used to be.

My feeling is that in the Salvationverse, capital punishment will be a dead letter. Instead, people will get long prison terms with the balance after death served in a prison in Hell. So, taking the standard Texan sentence of 3,000 years in jail, the perp gets to serve circa 60 years on earth and 2,940 in a max security prison in Hell. Probably said prison being run by daemons.

[Darth Wong]

Another option would be to make murderers into their victims' slaves in Hell, which would be a real "just desserts" kind of situation.

[Shroom Man 777]

Man, why isn't the thread in the Cleaned Up Fanfics subforum being updated?

[Darth Wong]

Man, why isn't the thread in the Cleaned Up Fanfics subforum being updated?

I've been away for a little while. I just finished bringing it up to date.

[Shroom Man 777]

Oh, okay. Thanks man! You're the awesomest!

[Land Phish]

Yet another option could be to "double kill" the worse criminals. Once when they're alive, and again when they're dead.

[Kie99]

Yet another option could be to "double kill" the worse criminals. Once when they're alive, and again when they're dead.

Problem with that is, they might end up going somewhere else once you kill them in Hell.

[SCRawl]

Yet another option could be to "double kill" the worse criminals. Once when they're alive, and again when they're dead.

Problem with that is, they might end up going somewhere else once you kill them in Hell.

The presumption by many of the "believers" was that they were going somewhere before. What's changed?

[GrayAnderson]

Yet another option could be to "double kill" the worse criminals. Once when they're alive, and again when they're dead.

Problem with that is, they might end up going somewhere else once you kill them in Hell.

The presumption by many of the "believers" was that they were going somewhere before. What's changed?

I'd look at this as "In Hell, we know where they are. If we kill them again, who knows what's going to happen with them." Before, all we knew was that they were dead and we never had to deal with them again. Now, we know there is a hereafter...and there's at least some evidence that there are more stages to existence.

[Stuart]

I'd look at this as "In Hell, we know where they are. If we kill them again, who knows what's going to happen with them." Before, all we knew was that they were dead and we never had to deal with them again. Now, we know there is a hereafter...and there's at least some evidence that there are more stages to existence.

Logically that's true. Now "we" (as in Salvationverse we) know there is another "dimension", logically we must assume there will be more. We can justify "one one" or "everlasting series" but "just two" is mathematically painful. The wine jug comparison is a good one. One can accept a wine jug that is empty when the wine is drunk and stays empty. One can accept (joyfully) a wine jug that continually refills itself. A wine jug that refills itself once only is migraine-inducing.

[Gil Hamilton]

Typically, in solutions for things, zero, one, and infinite are the most common numbers for things. Linear algebra drove this home painfully.

[Junghalli]

^ If you're talking about afterlives, that analyses assumes they're a natural phenomenon. The idea that the Minos Gate is natural is so brain-breaking I honestly tend to lean toward the artificial construct explanation of it. In which case there almost certainly would be a finite number of afterlives, as the builders could only have extended the system so far.

The presumption by many of the "believers" was that they were going somewhere before. What's changed?

The existence of an afterlife is now a serious potential security concern. We now know that not only is there a Heaven and Hell but interaction between their world and ours is possible. If there's a next level up it's logical to assume the same is true for it. We know nothing about the entities that inhabit such a place; we are completely ignorant of their capabilities, their motives, and their goals. Do we really want to be handing people over to them? Even if they're just criminals so we don't care if anything unpleasant happens to them they may be a valuable source of intel for the inhabitants of the next level up on us. Until we know more about them it's in our interests to deny them as much knowledge about us as is feasible.

BTW, this line of logic is why I suspect SETI likely isn't going to work. The rational thing to do when dealing with totally unknown entities is to conceal as much information about yourself from them as you can (ideally including the fact you exist) while trying to learn as much about them as possible. So I suspect a rational civilization is going to spam probes all over the galaxy while trying to keep its own profile low.

[Peptuck]

Incidentally,t here appears to be another idiot spewing baseless bashing over at TVTropes. See the Just Bugs Me page, and the discussion page. (top of former, bottom of latter)

Apparently, the Baldricks are saddled with an idiot ball because they didn't use their portal powers to drop the sun on Earth, in spite of a complete lack of understanding of astronomy or access to spacecraft. Oh, and the fact that Yaweh doesn't drop Metatron on Earth is due to "author fiat" and the "rules" of the universe somehow being bent to accomodate humans over the Baldricks/angels.

[Darth Yan]

to be fair those arguments are adressed by other tropers.

[Pelranius]

Another option would be to make murderers into their victims' slaves in Hell, which would be a real "just desserts" kind of situation.

What about mass murderers though? Time shares probably won't work out too well.

[Stuart]

Incidentally,t here appears to be another idiot spewing baseless bashing over at TVTropes. See the Just Bugs Me page, and the discussion page. (top of former, bottom of latter)Apparently, the Baldricks are saddled with an idiot ball because they didn't use their portal powers to drop the sun on Earth, in spite of a complete lack of understanding of astronomy or access to spacecraft. Oh, and the fact that Yaweh doesn't drop Metatron on Earth is due to "author fiat" and the "rules" of the universe somehow being bent to accomodate humans over the Baldricks/angels.

Interestingly, he comes from the same place as some earlier idiots. It looks to me like a university bible study group. That's supported by the fact that the prat admitted he had never read the story and was going by hearsay from others.

The weird thing is that even a rudimentary level of scientific understanding would show him that the rules of the universe are actually being bent in favor of the daemons. Again, that suggests he's from sort of biblical study group where rational thought is an optional extra.

Oh by the way Spoiler

Metatron does turn up in the near future, but not quite as this guy was expecting.

[Ryan Thunder]

You did assume that they never advanced an iota beyond the bronze age, which did marginally bother me. I do still enjoy reading it of course.

[Samuel]

You did assume that they never advanced an iota beyond the bronze age, which did marginally bother me. I do still enjoy reading it of course.

Actually technological stasis isn't such a big leap. They have a society where individuals live a long time, where labor is cheap, where innovation is discouraged and where status is allocated based on military skill.

I'm not sure stasis would be that extreme, but it isn't unprecedented.

[NecronLord]

Apparently, the Baldricks are saddled with an idiot ball because they didn't use their portal powers to drop the sun on Earth, in spite of a complete lack of understanding of astronomy or access to spacecraft.

There are some perhaps more devastating ways of using portals that are potentially possible. I did send one to Stuart, but as I said, it's unlikely either faction could concieve it, or necesserily open such a portal

Oh, and the fact that Yaweh doesn't drop Metatron on Earth is due to "author fiat" and the "rules" of the universe somehow being bent to accomodate humans over the Baldricks/angels.

This is certainly true. A more accurate depiction of the mythology would be vastly harder (or impossible) to defeat. This is a setup designed to favour the humans, for the obvious reason that a story about fighting mythological god would basically consist of 'he rains impossible plagues on you, then you go to hell' - occasionally he might come down and get squished by a tank, but he's basically invulnerable and un-attackable. Obviously for this story to be anything but a depressing gore-fest, that has to give.

I once toyed with the notion of doing some writing in a modern version of "the bibleverse" - dome of heaven, waters above and beneath, stars as little lights in the sky, sun and oon as moving things beneath the dome, Jerusalem the center of the flat Earth, big arsenals of hailstones for god, build a high enough tower and you can overthrow god - that took it all to be literally true. The problem is, it's hilariously inconsistant. At one point in the bible, it's possible to build a big tower and go get him, in another, he's an incorporeal spirit. (Perhaps this can be reconciled by saying you go get him with witchcraft).

Anyone writing 'bible fanfiction' must basically contend with the fact that it makes no fucking sense, except as a bizzare hate-fest where God rains down suffering on everything at random, including his chosen people, whim.

Given that, the mythological (of course, Metatron isn't even in the bible, nor are other named angels for the most part, they're Rabbinic Folkore) stuff basically has to snap into a more coherent frame, unless you want your bible fanfiction to suck as much as the bible does. And this is certainly as good a way as any other.

He is of course, simply butthurt to read about what he believes to be his owners, lords and masters getting their asses whupped.

[Stuart]

This is certainly true. A more accurate depiction of the mythology would be vastly (or impossible) to defeat. This is a setup designed to favour the humans, for the obvious reason that a story about fighting mythological god would basically consist of 'he rains impossible plagues on you, then you go to hell' - occasionally he might come down and get squished by a tank, but he's basically invulnerable and un-attackable. Obviously for this story to be anything but a depressing gore-fest, that has to give.

The problem here is interaction. To make interaction possible, the laws of physics need to be somewhat similar. In effect they have to be subsets of a general case law. Now, if we were to take some of the mythological accounts as being literally true, then the laws of physics that would make such accounts true would be so different from our own that interaction - either way - would be impossible. In other words, interaction implies commonality of physical laws.

You could actually call this "The First Salvation Law". "The degree of possible physical interaction is inversely proportional to the differences in underlying physical laws".

This, by the way, kills standard mythology stone dead. A mythology that gives it's "gods" the abilities and physical descriptions stated would be so different from us in terms of underlying physical laws that interaction would be impossible. For example a living creature the size of Metatron would be require physical laws so different from ours that it could not exist in our reality, So, whether it exists or not is irrelevent to us. It can't interact with us, we can't interact with it so we invoke the Aether Argument and say to hell with it.

So, what was done in Armageddon was to create a situation where the daemons could interact with us (and thus us with them) while still having their fundamental powers. EG mind possession, throwing lightning bolts around, flying, wreathing fire etc. We had to bend the laws of physics quite badly to achieve that but at least we bent them, not put them through a shredder. In other words, we didn't load the dice in favor of the humans, we loaded it on favor of the daemons. It just didn't do them any good. (shades of Nazi wunderwaffe there). Note that Michael-Lan is doing much better than the daemons simply because he's using his head instead of brute force.

By the way, completely stagnant cultures? Actually quite common. China up to the 20th century would be one example, arguably Rome would be another. They may change in surface respects but the underlying culture remained the same.

He is of course, simply butthurt to read about what he believes to be his owners, lords and masters getting their asses whupped.

Couldn't have put it any better. Talk about Stockholm Syndrome.

Hey, now that is an interesting thought. If somebody doing sociology wants a thesis idea. "An Ad-Hoc Inquiry Into The Relationship Between Stockholm Syndrome and Organized Religion."

[Emerson33260]

....build a high enough tower and you can overthrow god....

My bible studies must be deficient. Where is that stated or even implied in the bible?

[Samuel]

....build a high enough tower and you can overthrow god....

My bible studies must be deficient. Where is that stated or even implied in the bible?

Tower of Babel.

By the way, completely stagnant cultures? Actually quite common. China up to the 20th century would be one example, arguably Rome would be another. They may change in surface respects but the underlying culture remained the same.

China isn't a great example- they went through phases of expansion and innovation and period of stasis. It wasn't constant- fo example up until the 16th century Europe was borrowing a good portion of their technology.

Of course, having an Emperor who doesn't die and sticks you in the stasis portion will have a major effect. I don't know how much immortality will actually stall progress not having any interaction with it. However Hell simply could lack any thing like universities or any institutions devoted to learning and innovation- after all, those are generally devoted to the younger generation who would attempt to use it to steal power from the older generation.

[Junghalli]

Honestly if you wanted to accuse the Demons of being idiot ball characters there are much better arguments you could use.

Hey, now that is an interesting thought. If somebody doing sociology wants a thesis idea. "An Ad-Hoc Inquiry Into The Relationship Between Stockholm Syndrome and Organized Religion."

Well, they are both neurological hacks that exploit the same basic neurological response; to obey and adore the most powerful person in your group for the sake of social cohesion as well as individual self preservation and promotion.

[Emerson33260]

....build a high enough tower and you can overthrow god....

My bible studies must be deficient. Where is that stated or even implied in the bible?

Tower of Babel.

My reading of Genesis ch. 11 is that God gets pissy because people are staying together in one place, and defying the instruction to "fill the Earth". Unless all the renditions into English I have seen are grossly incorrect, the Tower was at worst (from the deity's point of view) an attempt at illegal immigration into Heaven, not conquest. A tunnel under the border fence. In the context of NecronLord's story, the Tower of Babel would have been an expression of a bad attitude on the part of humans that might lead to trouble in a millenium or six.

[GrayAnderson]

I'd look at this as "In Hell, we know where they are. If we kill them again, who knows what's going to happen with them." Before, all we knew was that they were dead and we never had to deal with them again. Now, we know there is a hereafter...and there's at least some evidence that there are more stages to existence.

Logically that's true. Now "we" (as in Salvationverse we) know there is another "dimension", logically we must assume there will be more. We can justify "one one" or "everlasting series" but "just two" is mathematically painful. The wine jug comparison is a good one. One can accept a wine jug that is empty when the wine is drunk and stays empty. One can accept (joyfully) a wine jug that continually refills itself. A wine jug that refills itself once only is migraine-inducing.

Well, infinite is workable, but so is "a large but finite number". For example, an oil well may fill many barrels, but ultimately there is a limit; such a limit would imply a "higher order" structure. However, another question does come up:

Let us say that the energy flows detected are like an amount of water. We are then faced with two choices that leap to mind:
1) The flow is much akin to a river emptying a lake in the Sahara in that the energy has a finite supply before it runs out, and it won't refill itself. This also implies that the energy is either ending up somewhere in a big pool, or that it is dissipating over long distance travel due to evaporation, etc. (there's a big inland river delta in Southern Africa like this, the Okavango; the Chu does this as well).
2) It is more like the tides in the ocean: Something on the outside is "pulling" the energy in one direction, and as long as that something keeps pulling it. This would imply a large pool, and something existing outside of it.

The first analogy would suggest that the universes are "stacked". The second would suggest a circle, if you will (if a large one); I'm reminded of the ideas in Eastern religions of reincarnation and reality being cyclic, which are what brought this idea to mind.
Spoiler

The Metatron/Megatron/whatever hint also hints at a "higher order" structure above what we call a univere. Very interesting.