Classic games: Just not really that good?

[Vendetta]

Yeah, AVGN is pretty funny, because it's just like SDN; people dumb enough to think that because it offends them it must be real.

Actually, I find James Rolfe funnier when he's talking about things he likes. He's brilliant when he's doing monster movies on cinemassicre.

[Nephtys]

Also, the X-Wing/TIE Fighter series were just great games, all around. It definitely ages better than the other flight sim games of its era.

It does? I think the primitive polygons aged worse than the sprites of Wing Commander 2 and Privateer. And it certainly didn't age better than WC3.

[Vendetta]

I think Master of Magic would make for a really cool strategy game, today. It had sufficiently complicated game mechanics, and a great setting. They would probably have to re-balance it for multiplayer. But if they made it more like Total War... excellent!

Both Master of Magic and Master of Orion would make great games if they were balanced, however, the old Microprose Way was to allow players to create the most unbalanced nonsense possible. (Invulnerable Guardian Spirit = Instant Win)

[Thanas]

Also, the X-Wing/TIE Fighter series were just great games, all around. It definitely ages better than the other flight sim games of its era.

It does? I think the primitive polygons aged worse than the sprites of Wing Commander 2 and Privateer. And it certainly didn't age better than WC3.

Really? I just played TIE Fighter and it looks far better than WC3.

[Covenant]

Also, the X-Wing/TIE Fighter series were just great games, all around. It definitely ages better than the other flight sim games of its era.

It does? I think the primitive polygons aged worse than the sprites of Wing Commander 2 and Privateer. And it certainly didn't age better than WC3.

I think TIE Fighter's relative bleakness fit the star wars universe pre-prequel, before everything started to glow and give off bloom effects and shine like it was polished steel. Sure, the graphics ARE crap now, but they still seem to fit the theme--whereas WC3's graphics, while they're certainly quite tolerable, leaned a bit towards wanking the flash, and thus falling a little flatter.

At least that's my feeling. TIE Fighter was pretty bare-bones, and is all about the simulation. WC3 was a much easier game, with more streamlined controls and such.

Anyway, whatever, I've not played a simulation game more recently than WC: Prophecy and that short amount of time playing that incredibly frustrating nBSG one that you dominated me in.

[Vendetta]

Final Fantasy 1

Take back your blasphemy! FF1 remains among the best games ever made. Few of its sequels were able to capture the different classes and somewhat open endedness of the original - you can change it up a little on each replay to keep it fresh.

ok ok, what I'm saying is "i like it" lol.

It's certainly "ahead of it's time" in terms of being a bug raddled mess. Half the weapon and monster properties don't work, whole stats do nothing. the problems with it go on and on...

They didn't really settle down and start getting the mechanics right until FFIII, and even that had problems, hence the massive overhaul for the DS version.

[VF5SS]

Speaking of space sims, its kind of funny how little they've changed in terms of basic concepts. Even old games like Atari's Star Raiders and Namco's Star Luster are like complete space sims. Is that "classic" space sim gameplay? Run around between waypoints, kill enemies, and occasionally get a power up from base.

[Eleas]

Speaking of space sims, its kind of funny how little they've changed in terms of basic concepts. Even old games like Atari's Star Raiders and Namco's Star Luster are like complete space sims. Is that "classic" space sim gameplay? Run around between waypoints, kill enemies, and occasionally get a power up from base.

Well, honestly, I think it's a result of copying the basic framework of Elite for graphics, and merging that framework with the basic loop of the arcade game formula: negotiate a level (a race track, basically), destroy enemies, reach "goal", earn a "congratulations" and the occasional powerup. Said formula worked for basic reasons - it's very similar to BF Skinner's experiments in conditioning by reward-based reinforcement.

[Bluewolf]

Some games are great for being the first to do something in a certain way (Zelda: OOT for example) or did a certain decent concept (Tetris). Now if Tetris was released only today, I think it would do a lot better than the former, OOT. Tetris is a simple game idea that can run on any graphical setting and still be good whereas a lot of the love for OOT is rose tinted. It was the first 3D Zelda of course .

[Oskuro]

Games that are 'good' just because they are the first to do something are nothing more than gimmick-centric games, like the many we have today. They are truly good if they use that new feature in interesting ways, beyond the mere novelty of the feature itself.

Graphics, by the way, are the most common gimmick of all. Throw some post-processing around, and players start salivating, but after a couple hours you've already seen all they can offer, and thus the novelty is gone.

But saying that hype sells would spawn an endless stream of "who knew" posts.

[Drooling Iguana]

It does? I think the primitive polygons aged worse than the sprites of Wing Commander 2 and Privateer. And it certainly didn't age better than WC3.

Yeah, the graphics in the original versions of X-Wing and TIE-Fighter were pretty shitty. Fortunately, they re-made them a few years later using the XvsT engine which, while still dated by today's standards, at least allowed for things like texture maps.

Unfortunately, they also decided to abandon the original's dynamic music system and just play pre-recorded music from the CD instead. What's worse, they eliminated TIE-Fighter's mostly-new score from everything except the cutscenes and replaced it with the same generic cues you've heard in every other Star Wars game.

[General Zod]

FF7 said time and time again that there ain't no getting offa this train we're on. FF1 let you off less than half way through, and gave you the choice of rides early on in the picking the party screen. It is a game rather than a movie with random battles.

It's not as if FF1 had much of a story to speak of.

[PainRack]

No mention of Commander keen? The game was kiddy, cheesy like hell with an absurd storyline, but updated with some better graphics, it should still be quite fun to play as a 2D adventure. Its no worse than Maplestory that's for sure.

[Uraniun235]

No mention of Commander keen? The game was kiddy, cheesy like hell with an absurd storyline, but updated with some better graphics, it should still be quite fun to play as a 2D adventure. Its no worse than Maplestory that's for sure.

The art's pretty low-res, but it's still quality art - it might look okay on a handheld.

[Ryushikaze]

I'm going to say the NES Bionic Commando is a classic game that is genuinely rather good. You need the manual to understand what's going on in the beginning, but it's very good about telling you how to do things and where to go next without feeling railroaded. It's punishing at the very beginning when you'll die in a hit, but the game actually rewards doing well by giving you more HP after taking out enough enemies, and while, yes, the game is based on a gimmick, that of not being able to jump but giving you a grapple arm, it's a fun gimmick, and doesn't take extreme skill to master and use effectively.

[Oskuro]

No mention of Commander keen?

Commander Keen died in Map 32. Four times.

[Vendetta]

None of it really affects gameplay in a meaningful manner; it isn't like the game crashes or anything spectacular like that. Hell, I don't think there's anything in the game that even implies that these effects should exist in the first place, beyond the names.

There are flags set for monster types and weapon types on all the item files. They just forgot to actually include them in the combat equations.

The game's big strength isn't as much in how you can tweak the stats, but rather in how you pick your party and decide to proceed for about the whole second half. You have a bit of open endedness there that you can play with on subsequent replays. (And the game is short enough that it isn't a lifelong chore to play through it again!)

Except, of course, half of the "choices" you can make are rendered pointless by the fact that the classes are so woefully balanced. White and Black mages benefit nothing at all from their Intelligence growth, because intelligence is a stat the game never actually uses for anything, and the tier 7 spells aren't much worse than the tier 8 ones, so you're always better with the increased survivability of a Red mage. Mages as a whole basically turn into walking first aid kits later in the game, and you can replace them entirely with the White Shirt, Heal Helm, and a bit of patience, so unless you really need someone to cast ICE3 occasionally, you can get away without mages at all, because the one really good spell in the game, FAST, can be cast by ninjas and they can even damage things a bit as well.

There's also the way a Master can one-shot the final boss without any assistance, which is hilarity.

And whilst you could do the various temples in any order, there was a clear expected progression of difficulty, so unless you spent time grinding or ran away from everything, you pretty much weren't going to.

[Molyneux]

I'd point at a good number of the old sidescrollers - especially the Genesis version of "Aladdin". As has been said, tight mechanics will keep a game enjoyable far longer than any graphical gimmicks will. Wasn't there just a rerelease of Contra as well? I believe that it has been selling fairly well.

[General Zod]

But anyway, the point is just that the game gives you the option to choose your own path through the main events rather than forcing you to always follow the expected progression. None of its sequels even let you try.

I take it you never played FF6. You had a decent amount of freedom between certain events.

It's true that the game doesn't have much of a story, but look at the bright side: no boring ass FMVs or walls of text to sit through!

Instead you get dozens of NPCs that have two or three different lines total between them.

[Sriad]

I'd like to submit that Battletoads is a great game.

Sure it's pretty hard, but the "cooperative" multiplayer is a lot of fun, and rare even today.

Also, Maniac Mansion.

[General Zod]

I take it you never played FF6. You had a decent amount of freedom between certain events.

I've only played it once, and that was many years ago. (I've been meaning to play it again, but haven't found the time.) I do recall the screen where you pick which party you want to talk to to pick the next task you do, but this still isn't the same.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your decision doesn't really matter, does it? The split only occurs at parallel stories, so the stuff you do with party A doesn't have any significant change on party B.

It mattered a little bit more than the original FF because you actually had the chance to permanently lose certain characters depending on your choices.

[Stark]

Has this thread officially become another 'games I like' list thread? Maybe we should get a sticky for that crap.

[Sriad]

I thought it was just impossible because you'd always kill each other.

Also, I'd play the hell out of some Base Wars or North vs. South for similar pvp oriented reasons even though they aren't quite on the Battletoads level.

One on one combat is missing from pretty much all sports games except hockey; Base Wars upgrade and stats system was rigorous enough to at least hold up as a cheap fun game today.

In NvsS there was a modest degree of tactics involved, and the micro-managing of three different kinds of combat and movement mechanics simultaneously made the army scale fights exciting. Did the "lots of little games in one over-game" thing really well.

[Stark]

D13 that really hurts.

Since there are so many of you, can someone help me explain the psychology involved? How does any discussion of games from any persepctive always turn into 'man I really like R-type'? Does anyone remember those threads that turned into literal lists, with a bunch of fatties just posting a list of a dozen 'favourite' games with no explanation or anything in a thread about 'what is the best space game' or whatever?

[Sriad]

D13 that really hurts.

Since there are so many of you, can someone help me explain the psychology involved? How does any discussion of games from any persepctive always turn into 'man I really like R-type'? Does anyone remember those threads that turned into literal lists, with a bunch of fatties just posting a list of a dozen 'favourite' games with no explanation or anything in a thread about 'what is the best space game' or whatever?

It's hard to distinguish "This is a thing I like" from "This is a thing that is OBJECTIVELY GOOD".

In this case it's even worse because the other part of the question is "Objectively good even allowing for passage of time/decades of development of the medium."