Israel => fundamentalist shithole

[Patrick Degan]

Israel probably already has nukes.

Latest estimates state the Israeli arsenal to have 200-300 deliverable devices, some of them thermonuclear with 1MT yields though these are thought to comprise only a very small fraction of the inventory.

[Big Orange]

There are some official moves against relationships between Jewish women and Christian/Muslim Arab men that is breaking defacto taboos long held by elders. I'm pretty sure that's not a sign of dysfunctional cultural/biological insularity at all, nuh-uh...

I mentioned that in post 14. And posted the same article which we both got from spacebattles.

Oops.

Anyway this kinda bullshit obsession with race and ethnicity in Israel, even without the ultra-conservative Judaism, is a common opinion held by the more secular Jews who do not believe in God but believe in Zionism and its antagonist, neo-colonial trappings. But that too is grimly ironic due to the nature of Christian/Muslim Arab DNA in the Palestinian region.

And Israel having nukes has been widely known for many years and Mossad extradited Mordechai Vanunu on the sly for spreading information about Israel's nuclear project (which had backing from France), getting locked up in solitary confinement for 11 years.

[eyl]

The Maccabees were not important in the creation of a jewish identity?

Sure, but more in a nationalistic sense than a religious one. And in any case I wasn't disputing the Hasmonean's prominence, just the proportion of the time that theywere in countrol of a Jewish kingdom.

Then perhaps you should work on your sentence structure. When you mentioned exceptions, you were clearly referring to modern-day Israel's law and political system not being modeled on Jewish law (with a few exceptions). You then claimed that it was certainly not modeled on the ancient Israeli kingdoms, which you asserted were not theocracies. You made no reference to exceptions to that last part, so I'm not seeing how this could possibly be one of the exceptions you were referring to.

Damn, reading over the exchange shows me my brain was taking a major vacation in my initial exchange with Thanas, for which I can only apologize. Reading back, I was indeed referring to modern Israeli law, in particular personal-status laws (though in part that's actually an artifact of the Turkish millet system).

On the Petah Tikva thing, another article:

Following the murder of Eric Karp last month, the Petah Tikva Municipality has geared up efforts to discourage interaction between local teenage girls and older Arab Israeli men.

One of the young women who was with the group that allegedly killed Karp while he was out with his family, was from Petah Tikva. Local youth counselors say it is a phenomenon that puts the teenagers at risk. "What happened at Tel Baruch [beach] wasn't a surprise," said Nurit Tibi, the director of Petah Tikva's youth counseling center.

For the last year and a half, the municipality, in cooperation with ELEM Youth In Distress In Israel and the Israel Anti-Drug Authority, has been operating a street crew of youth-care professionals and volunteers, in an effort to identify and assist teenagers at risk, among them some who have fallen victim to exploitation by Arab men.

Tibi spoke about teenagers, sometimes girls as young as 11 or 12, who come from dysfunctional homes and who are often outside of the school system. These young women, mainly immigrants from the FSU who suffer from identity problems, form relationships with young men who come to the city at night to drink alcohol, do drugs and meet girls.

"The men offer them gifts, buy them clothes and take them out and expect sexual favors in return. We see this as sexual exploitation, not romantic relationships," said Tibi. Roughly 30 teenage girls, whom the city knows about, are in this situation.

"There was one case when a police officer pulled over a car where a teenager was riding with an Arab," said Tibi. "He called the girl's parents and told them that though it wasn't an offense, he thought they should know. Later the girl struck out at me, saying, 'He's a person, too.'

"Of course he's a person. The problem is that he's a person on the fringes of his society, who comes here looking for the solution in the fringes of our society and finds an easy target to exploit," Tibi said.

Legal means of deterring the phenomenon were unlikely to work, she said. Even though the girls are minors, it would be extremely difficult to file rape charges. What they can do, said Tibi, is offer them an alternative. Two evenings a week, the city's street crew goes to the places where the young people congregate, mostly parks, city squares and other public places, and brings with it hot drinks, snacks and games. "The idea is to form a relationship with the youths, so that they feel comfortable in their presence."

"Many of them have trust issues with adults. They have had bad experiences with them in the past," said Elin Cooperman, director of ELEM in Petah Tikva. "By being around and being available, we hope to draw them into discussion and hopefully, down the line, into a regulated environment where they can reevaluate their life choices and open options for the future," said Cooperman.

The municipality has sent out a message in the local press calling for volunteers for a new "residents patrol."

"The idea is to have groups of people who go out at nights, targeting the known meeting areas and keeping an eye on the youth," said municipal spokesman Hezi Hakak.

Tamer Massalha, spokesman for the Mossawa Center, the Advocacy
Center for Arab Citizens in Israel, calls the initiative an incitement to racism and violence.

"It is a type of dehumanization of the Arab public. We are considering taking legal action against Petah Tikva Municipality and the people who stand at its head," said Massalha.

"These things are dangerous. They are calling out for violence, calling out to apprehend Arab youths who are in Petah Tikva for employment or studies and lynching them," said Masalha. "These things are not new too. They are blood libels that are repeated time after time. Those who should examine themselves thoroughly are the public leaders who have taken racism to another level."

"There are young men and women who meet with each other, sometimes they are in a romantic relationship and sometimes they are friends.

"Some of the relationships are good and some aren't. We are no different than any other segment of the population and the human interaction among groups of people can be good or bad. Not every Arab who goes out with a Jewish girl is taking advantage of her," said Massalha. "Turning this into a burning issue is wrong. What about all the cases of domestic and sexual violence within the Jewish society?

"These things have all been forgotten. Now they only want to deal with one miserable case that involved Arabs and Jews, but in truth had nothing to do with race and everything to do with alcohol abuse and a failing education system on both sides.

"The Karp case was about bullying, which is a terrible phenomenon in Israeli society. What the city of Petah Tikva is doing is encouraging bullying and taking the law into people's hands and inciting indiscriminate racism that in many ways reminds us of the blood libels aimed at the Jewish people," said Massalha.

"We are trying to deal with a difficult situation. The city has received many complaints from parents and relatives. Even in the case of the girl who was involved in the Karp case, her parents said she had fallen into bad company. People may lash out at us and call it racism, but until you've lived in the situation you don't know what it's like," Hakak said.

[Samuel]

Sure, but more in a nationalistic sense than a religious one. And in any case I wasn't disputing the Hasmonean's prominence, just the proportion of the time that theywere in countrol of a Jewish kingdom.

From what I remember the Maccabees started their revolt when the Selucids started promoting their gods- the first person they killed was a jew who converted.

[eyl]

Sure, but more in a nationalistic sense than a religious one. And in any case I wasn't disputing the Hasmonean's prominence, just the proportion of the time that theywere in countrol of a Jewish kingdom.

From what I remember the Maccabees started their revolt when the Selucids started promoting their gods- the first person they killed was a jew who converted.

True (well, starting making worship of their gods compulsory is more accurate, but anyway), and so? The religious motives for the revolt are acknowledged, yes, but in general, certainly in modern times, the "fighting for freedom*" angle is the one that's most emphasized (IOW, their military role is stressed over their religious role).

*Even if it included fighting for freedom of worship.

[Thanas]

*Even if it included fighting for freedom of worship.

...which of course translated into "let's terrorize anyone who did not worship according to our gods", an act that is almost unheard of in antiquity. I find it fascinating that you equate that with freedom of worship. The more accurate term would be that they fought for a state in which all Jews worshipped according to their interpretation of the holy scripture.

And that the seleucids made the worships of their gods compulsory is, while accurate, not quite the whole story. It was almost certainly a reaction to Jewish revolts against seleucid rule.

[Samuel]

And that the seleucids made the worships of their gods compulsory is, while accurate, not quite the whole story. It was almost certainly a reaction to Jewish revolts against seleucid rule.

Did they require exclusive worship of their gods or did they go the Roman track where you had to engage in the public ceremonies but they didn't care what you believed or what mystery cults you were part of?

[Thanas]

And that the seleucids made the worships of their gods compulsory is, while accurate, not quite the whole story. It was almost certainly a reaction to Jewish revolts against seleucid rule.

Did they require exclusive worship of their gods or did they go the Roman track where you had to engage in the public ceremonies but they didn't care what you believed or what mystery cults you were part of?

Waaay off topic here, but the jewish sources seem to claim that he demanded exclusive worship due to wanting to break the jewish priesthood. The priests were one of the main sources of opposition - the whole revolt actually happened because Antiochos wanted to sell the position of High Priest (a perfectly acceptable practice among other nations then) but some factions objected to that. Of course, one has to wonder how they would enforce exclusive worship. The Romans had a far better organized state and even they did not manage to enforce exclusive worship in their own capital city.

[eyl]

Waaay off topic here, but the jewish sources seem to claim that he demanded exclusive worship due to wanting to break the jewish priesthood. The priests were one of the main sources of opposition - the whole revolt actually happened because Antiochos wanted to sell the position of High Priest (a perfectly acceptable practice among other nations then) but some factions objected to that. Of course, one has to wonder how they would enforce exclusive worship. The Romans had a far better organized state and even they did not manage to enforce exclusive worship in their own capital city.

They might not be able to 100% prevent other worship, but as I recall the sticking points were primarily forcing the population to participate in nonJewish rituals and converting the Temple to pagan worship.

...which of course translated into "let's terrorize anyone who did not worship according to our gods", an act that is almost unheard of in antiquity. I find it fascinating that you equate that with freedom of worship. The more accurate term would be that they fought for a state in which all Jews worshipped according to their interpretation of the holy scripture.

That may be so, but since the topic is their effects on modern Judaism and Israel, I'm talking about how the Macabean revolt is perceived today.

[Thanas]

I do recall it being used especially in a religious context. And it apparently is used as such.

I cannot quite understand how you can claim that the Maccabean revolt is perceived as a nationalistic event today when it was both a religious and a nationalistic event. I cannot see how it is remembered as just one of the two and you'd have to provide me with some evidence for that, seeing as there are at least some groups who do remember it as a religious and a nationalistic event.

[Axis Kast]

Generally speaking, Thanas, Hannukah is a holiday of minor religious significance. While an underlying theme in the mythologized history of the revolt and its successful conclusion is God's sanction, and there is considerable ritual surrounding the holiday, for most Jews, the eight days pale in significance when compared to Passover, say, let alone the High Holy Days of Rosh Haushanna and Yom Kippur.

The point of Hannukah for many Jews is merry-making, and in American culture, it has become a kind of "Jewish Christmas" which is celebrated the more vigorously because it is a festive winter event.

[Thanas]

^Are you actually going to address my point?

[eyl]

I do recall it being used especially in a religious context. And it apparently is used as such.

I cannot quite understand how you can claim that the Maccabean revolt is perceived as a nationalistic event today when it was both a religious and a nationalistic event. I cannot see how it is remembered as just one of the two and you'd have to provide me with some evidence for that, seeing as there are at least some groups who do remember it as a religious and a nationalistic event.

As Axis says, Hannukah is a rather minor holiday, from a religious POV. Yes, there are those who emphasize the relgious aspects of the Macabean revolt when it suits their agendas. But in the view of modern Israel, the aspect that was emphasized (not exculsively recognized, but emphasized) for the issue was the naitonalist/religious aspect, in part in a search for Jewish military role models during the pre-state period.

[Axis Kast]

^Are you actually going to address my point?

What is your point? You've substantiated your claim by linking to a religious celebration of the holiday advertised by a particular organization. In other words, your evidence is weak.

Hannukah is, for many Jews, a celebration with about the same religious content as Christmas for many Christians in the United States, except probably fewer Jews attend services than do even Christians.

[Winston Blake]

Nice try, asshole. That's not what I said. I said that the inspiration for modern Israel was ancient Israel, which was in fact a Bronze Age theocracy. I never said that the founders of Israel were sitting around pondering theocracy.

Then why talk of the inspiration at all?

I think the problem here is that DW used the word 'inspired' with a different meaning to the one you interpreted it as. There is a difference between merely naming and locating modern Israel to match ancient Israel, and desiring to actually recreate ancient Israel.

Literal text:

How long are we going to continue knee-jerk defending this worsening race-state, as it totters toward the Bronze Age theocracy that was its original inspiration from Day One?

DW's apparent intention:

as it totters toward the Bronze Age theocracy that was its original influence from Day One?

Your apparent interpretation:

as it totters toward the Bronze Age theocracy that was its original intended model from Day One?

Is that about right? Same word, two different meanings.

[Axis Kast]

I think the problem here is that DW used the word 'inspired' with a different meaning to the one you interpreted it as. There is a difference between merely naming and locating modern Israel to match ancient Israel, and desiring to actually recreate ancient Israel.

Early Zionists built Israel to serve as a homeland for world Jewry. Religion has therefore always figured into it. However, a great majority of Jews in Israel have tended toward secularism, and, for most of its history, Israeli Jewry was rather less strictly observant than American or Canadian Jewry. That began to change during the late 1980s as demographic shifts began to favor the very religious. I would submit that they have so many children not because they get tax breaks, but because they are, in fact, very religious.

[Winston Blake]

I think the problem here is that DW used the word 'inspired' with a different meaning to the one you interpreted it as. There is a difference between merely naming and locating modern Israel to match ancient Israel, and desiring to actually recreate ancient Israel.

Early Zionists built Israel to serve as a homeland for world Jewry. Religion has therefore always figured into it. However, a great majority of Jews in Israel have tended toward secularism, and, for most of its history, Israeli Jewry was rather less strictly observant than American or Canadian Jewry. That began to change during the late 1980s as demographic shifts began to favor the very religious. I would submit that they have so many children not because they get tax breaks, but because they are, in fact, very religious.

Er, OK, but I didn't say anything about tax breaks causing large families, I was just clarifying what I saw as the source of dispute between you two.

[Axis Kast]

I don't think that was quite the disagreement between us.

I think that if Mike didn't feel that the State of Israel was founded with an intent to reach back to Biblical precedents and modes of thinking in the first place, he wouldn't have said what he did, but instead dealt with rising Orthodoxy as a new and essentially unprecedented/unpredicted event.

[Saurencaerthai]

...and they average 8.8 children a family.

What the fuck? There is no way in hell that the average Haredi family can actually support them without a shitload of cash from the taxpayer. The Israeli government should seriously consider subsidising vasectomies.

Welcome to Israel. Unfortunately, this is a sad trend where many Haredi Jews leach off the government. I've heard too many stories Haredim claiming to be pursuing religious studies to both duck out of military service and collect paychecks, all while holding a job on the side. Fairly recently, there was a controversy with them where they were running a government-funded (aka: public) school and refused to let several Ethiopian children attend. Its a classic case of wanting to have their cake and eat it to. They want all the benefits of being under the state, but also essentially want their own governance.

Whether or not it means much, I was over there recently visiting family in the North (which is generally speaking, much less religious and left wing) and the general sense I got from a lot of the people I met was outrage towards this type of behavior.

[Ace Pace]

...and they average 8.8 children a family.

What the fuck? There is no way in hell that the average Haredi family can actually support them without a shitload of cash from the taxpayer. The Israeli government should seriously consider subsidising vasectomies.

Welcome to Israel. Unfortunately, this is a sad trend where many Haredi Jews leach off the government. I've heard too many stories Haredim claiming to be pursuing religious studies to both duck out of military service and collect paychecks, all while holding a job on the side. Fairly recently, there was a controversy with them where they were running a government-funded (aka: public) school and refused to let several Ethiopian children attend. Its a classic case of wanting to have their cake and eat it to. They want all the benefits of being under the state, but also essentially want their own governance.

Whether or not it means much, I was over there recently visiting family in the North (which is generally speaking, much less religious and left wing) and the general sense I got from a lot of the people I met was outrage towards this type of behavior.

Pretty much everyone, secular, dati leumi (religious) alike hate this sort of behavior, which is sadly quite widespread in the Haredi community. A further note on that is that while they leech off the government, most of their money actually comes from the U.S. as Haredi communities in places such as New York send large sums of money in order to fund their Yeshivas.