Basava Premanand is Dying, Still Atheist

[Johonebesus]

Basava Premanand is a moderately well known Indian atheist and skeptic. Westerners might have seen him in various documentaries debunking Indian mysticism, from traditional fakirs to modern "psychic surgeons". Since superstition is so much stronger in India than even in the U.S.A., he has stirred up a great deal of controversy over his career. Now he is dying of cancer, and has composed a death bed declaration maintaining his atheism, out of fear that the mystics will spread rumors of a death-bed-conversion to discredit his work.

TO WHOMEVER IT MAY CONCERN

Declaration of attitude and temperament

I, B. Premanand s/o late Sri Basava Prabhu, 80 years of age resident Chettipalayam Road, Podanur, sound of mind though suffering from physical complications caused by metastases in many organs caused by carcinoma of the stomach herein solemnly wish to place on record the following:

1. I have been closely associated with the rationalist movement from 1975 onwards and have been a rationalist of full conviction since then and continue to be so.
2. It is common for the purveyors of superstitions and such anti rational forces to start spreading rumors about rationalists turning to god and other supernatural forces at the end of their lives and becoming devotees of gods and god men of various types.
3. It is also claimed that at times of crises that we staunch rationalists through the major part of our lives, turn to spiritualism and religion.
4. I wish to clarify that as on today the twentieth of September,2009 I remain a staunch rationalist and wish to place on record the following:

* a. I continue to be a rationalist of full conviction.
* b. I do not believe in any supernatural power. All the powers that we encounter are in the realm of nature and nothing exists beyond that.
* c. I do not believe in the existence of the soul or rebirth.
* d. I have not turned to any religion, god or any sort of spiritual pursuits.
* e. When I pass away I shall be leaving only my body which is to be donated to a medical college and no spirit or soul to cause problems for the living.

I want to convey to all that the struggle against the exploitation by god men and so called supernatural forces is a long and hard one but the ultimate victory will be ours.
My very survival has been a challenge to astrologers and their so called “science” of astrology, as they had all predicted that I would die soon after birth and refused to cast a horoscope for me.
I wish to convey to my colleagues of the rationalist movement to continue the work that I have been doing with renewed vigor and that will be the best of tributes for me.

Abhirami Hospital

Podanur (B. Premanand)

Witnessed by: Dr. Maya Prabhu and Suneera

I just hope I can have as much dignity when I die. With my luck I'll probably spend my last years senile.

[Akkleptos]

My heart and my respect go out to you, Mr. Prebanand.

[Patrick Degan]

Is this the guy who went on live TV for three or four hours with a self-proclaimed mystic who kept trying to set a death curse on him with zero result?

[Akkleptos]

Is this the guy who went on live TV for three or four hours with a self-proclaimed mystic who kept trying to set a death curse on him with zero result?

If he was -meaning, if such an incident ever happened- then, being about to die after having been born in 1930 seems to discredit any kind of death curse in my book.

[Mr Bean]

Is this the guy who went on live TV for three or four hours with a self-proclaimed mystic who kept trying to set a death curse on him with zero result?

That was Sanal Edamaruku in March of 2008 and it was great. Wish it had gotten translated. Searching Sanal Edamaruku on You-tube will turn up the various videos. Like this one which is the last one. The entire show was a great viral hit since they stayed on the air while the Tantrik vowed to kill him with the Ultimate Destruction Black Magic which I assumed meant he was going to hit him with something impressive but instead just waved a knife around him for awhile.

[Molyneux]

I have some trouble how he can face death so...well, calmly. I find it terrifying - wish that I could fool myself into believing in an afterlife - and I have to respect his stones and the foresight to do something like this.

Does anyone want to lay odds that someone will try to pull the old deathbed conversion bullshit again?

[Zixinus]

Does anyone want to lay odds that someone will try to pull the old deathbed conversion bullshit again?

Of course. You'll have rumours spread around that in the last moment of his life, he recounted both the document above and wanted his body to be buried in a traditional religious manner, but the Evil Atheist Doctors refused to hear his pleas.

You could video the hour of his very death, with high quality microphones near his mouth, showing that he did not such thing, but people will still insist.

Once you make your mind to believe ridiculous things that contradicts reality, you can do it again and again, no matter how painfully clear reality is.

[Oskuro]

I have some trouble how he can face death so...well, calmly.

There's nothing he can do about it, and once it happens, he won't care anyway.

[Surlethe]

It is worth bearing in mind that all we know of his mental state is what he's chosen to communicate in this little memo. It could well be that he is incredibly tortured at the prospect of ceasing to exist, and merely chooses not to share it with the rest of the world.

[Dooey Jo]

I have some trouble how he can face death so...well, calmly.

He's had a lot of time to come to terms with it. To die, and stay dead, also seems to be considered a pretty positive thing in Eastern philosophies, so maybe he never was that worried to begin with.

[Adam Reynolds]

He's had a lot of time to come to terms with it. To die, and stay dead, also seems to be considered a pretty positive thing in Eastern philosophies, so maybe he never was that worried to begin with.

But he has shown that he does not believe in any of the Eastern philosophies. Many of them had such a positive spin on death because they believed in reincarnation.

As a side note on reincarnation, it is interesting that a common belief in Buddhists is that people that are born with hideous birth defects and other problems are being punished for actions in their previous life. In her wonderful story Letting Go of God, Julia Sweeney mentioned this as one of the many things that turned her away from religion.

[Amitabho]

Many of them had such a positive spin on death because they believed in reincarnation.

I thought reincarnation was the punishment. AKA "the only way to be free of the cycle of rebirth and obtain Nirvana is to be good" or something.

[Akkleptos]

I thought reincarnation was the punishment. AKA "the only way to be free of the cycle of rebirth and obtain Nirvana is to be good" or something.

Actually, as far as my limited knowledge of Indian religion, the worst you behave in life, the farther away you set yourself from Nirvana (which in itself means:

1. often Nirvana
1. Buddhism. The ineffable ultimate in which one has attained disinterested wisdom and compassion.
2. Hinduism. Emancipation from ignorance and the extinction of all attachment.
2. An ideal condition of rest, harmony, stability, or joy.

)

So... the closest you get to the reincarnation cycle, the more you have to start again in a new life and try to achieve a state closer to nirvana before you die.

[Dooey Jo]

But he has shown that he does not believe in any of the Eastern philosophies.

That doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't share their general attitude towards death as something inevitable and natural, rather than some kind of medical condition that shouldn't exist.

Many of them had such a positive spin on death because they believed in reincarnation.

Not really, the object is to make the cycle of reincarnation stop. In many ways it's "worse" than Western ideas of a rosy afterlife where you get to keep living, because it's not even "you", the person, who's getting reincarnated.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Many of them had such a positive spin on death because they believed in reincarnation.

Not really, the object is to make the cycle of reincarnation stop. In many ways it's "worse" than Western ideas of a rosy afterlife where you get to keep living, because it's not even "you", the person, who's getting reincarnated.

I've said it before, (albeit not on the forum) and i'll say it again -
The three most destructive, dangerous traits of a religion are:

• 1. Focus on an afterlife/life after death.
  Reincarnation based beliefs manage to be even worse than faiths that focus on an afterlife like Christianity or modern Islam (with virgins and suicide bombers). Thankfully, Judaism doesn't believe in an afterlife, though some modern intepretations believe in human-human reincarnation without a karmic "debt".
• 2. Fundamentalism. To elaborate, an emphasis on the faith being the whole and unfallible and not being open to change or intepretation.
  You might think that all faiths are like that, but they're not - Christianity is full of later prophets and additions (it's based on Christ modifying Judaism), eastern "faiths" are astoundingly adaptable (many of them are philosophies as a base, and are very open to discussion as a result), and modern Judaism is nothing but interpretations.
  Many Cults and modern Islam on the other hand with their single dogma mean that once they entrench they result in far more unflinching certainty, and tend to stay worse. (Islam used to be more liberal centuries ago in many fields, but the answer to anything going "wrong" was "We aren't following the Koran closely enough! Must go back to the basics! More veils! More stonings!").
  It also means that anyone indoctrinated in it or converted is more "secure" in their beliefs and less likely to be convinced otherwise. It's also very tempting for many looking for structure (dictatorships beat democracy for percieved stability 9/10).
• 3. A minor one, how powerful and entrenched and formal the religion is. Power corrupts, especially in conjunction with various traits in the religion itself (witness medieval Tibet, Christianity selling pardons, I'd bet that even something as "benevolent" as new age hippies would end up doing horrors if they had the type of control many faiths had in past times over more than 2 generations)

I should have saved this for a longer thread .

[Rye]

Reincarnation based beliefs manage to be even worse than faiths that focus on an afterlife like Christianity or modern Islam (with virgins and suicide bombers). Thankfully, Judaism doesn't believe in an afterlife, though some modern intepretations believe in human-human reincarnation without a karmic "debt".

How is reincarnation worse? Not only are elements of it generally more accurate to reality (after all, we ARE composed of all the dead things we consume, and will compose the organisms we are consumed by), but the rules that believers think dictate reincarnation aren't any worse or better than most religions. As for Judaism not believing in an afterlife, that's hilarious; read up on your jewish eschatology sometime. You have your Olam Ha-Ba.

[The Grim Squeaker]

Reincarnation based beliefs manage to be even worse than faiths that focus on an afterlife like Christianity or modern Islam (with virgins and suicide bombers). Thankfully, Judaism doesn't believe in an afterlife, though some modern intepretations believe in human-human reincarnation without a karmic "debt".

How is reincarnation worse? Not only are elements of it generally more accurate to reality (after all, we ARE composed of all the dead things we consume, and will compose the organisms we are consumed by), but the rules that believers think dictate reincarnation aren't any worse or better than most religions. As for Judaism not believing in an afterlife, that's hilarious; read up on your jewish eschatology sometime. You have your Olam Ha-Ba.

It works better at convincing people to abandon their current life in favour of the next.
Heaven/Hell allows an escape and future based on your current life, reincarnation has no escape and constant karmic debt (and it's easier to get fucked up in said systems due to the laws against "acting against one's cast").

Rye, Jewish religious interpretations are a subject best left for a chat rather than a forum debate . IM sometime?

[tedisbest]

Reincarnation based beliefs manage to be even worse than faiths that focus on an afterlife like Christianity or modern Islam (with virgins and suicide bombers). Thankfully, Judaism doesn't believe in an afterlife, though some modern intepretations believe in human-human reincarnation without a karmic "debt".

How is reincarnation worse? Not only are elements of it generally more accurate to reality (after all, we ARE composed of all the dead things we consume, and will compose the organisms we are consumed by), but the rules that believers think dictate reincarnation aren't any worse or better than most religions. As for Judaism not believing in an afterlife, that's hilarious; read up on your jewish eschatology sometime. You have your Olam Ha-Ba.

It works better at convincing people to abandon their current life in favour of the next.
Heaven/Hell allows an escape and future based on your current life, reincarnation has no escape and constant karmic debt (and it's easier to get fucked up in said systems due to the laws against "acting against one's cast").

Rye, Jewish religious interpretations are a subject best left for a chat rather than a forum debate . IM sometime?

I would think that death not being an escape would convince people to stay in their current life. And committing crimes such as suicide would result in the victim being reincarnated into worse circumstances.

[General Zod]

It is worth bearing in mind that all we know of his mental state is what he's chosen to communicate in this little memo. It could well be that he is incredibly tortured at the prospect of ceasing to exist, and merely chooses not to share it with the rest of the world.

And it's possible that every religious true believer is secretly an atheist. Honestly this is kind of a ridiculous thing to note, because unless they claimed differently it's impossible to prove.

[Themightytom]

Why does he care what people say about him when he dies

[General Zod]

Why does he care what people say about him when he dies

Because some people don't want their name to be used in propaganda after they're gone? With the sheer amount of crap out there about, say, Darwin denouncing evolution and shit on his death bed it's a perfectly understandable concern.

[SCRawl]

Why does he care what people say about him when he dies

While he obviously won't care about that after his death, he apparently cares now about what his legacy will be after he's dead. He also might care about the future of the atheist philosophy, in particular whether or not his name and reputation might be perverted by those whose philosophies directly oppose those of reason.

Following the logic of your own question, you might ask why anyone would ever buy life insurance? After all, if I'm dead, I can't use the money, and I also won't care anymore about the welfare of my family. Obviously, I care now, and feel better that, should I die in the not-too-distant future, my family will have the material means to carry on afterwards.

[Samuel]

The problem with reincarnation is it can be used to justify social darwinism extrememly easily, similar to the way predestination can be used except worse.

[Themightytom]

Why does he care what people say about him when he dies

While he obviously won't care about that after his death, he apparently cares now about what his legacy will be after he's dead. He also might care about the future of the atheist philosophy, in particular whether or not his name and reputation might be perverted by those whose philosophies directly oppose those of reason.

Following the logic of your own question, you might ask why anyone would ever buy life insurance? After all, if I'm dead, I can't use the money, and I also won't care anymore about the welfare of my family. Obviously, I care now, and feel better that, should I die in the not-too-distant future, my family will have the material means to carry on afterwards.

That makes sense I suppose. I don't honestly see a practical concern for disposing of my remains as equal to hypothetical opnion someone might have, but I can at least see the argument.

Then again I am not engaged in a four dimensional argument regarding the nature of human existence, after thinking about it, I can see that he may not exactly be concerned with what happens after his death so much as he is trying to ensure he spends whatever remaining time he has continuing his work.

[Surlethe]

It is worth bearing in mind that all we know of his mental state is what he's chosen to communicate in this little memo. It could well be that he is incredibly tortured at the prospect of ceasing to exist, and merely chooses not to share it with the rest of the world.

And it's possible that every religious true believer is secretly an atheist. Honestly this is kind of a ridiculous thing to note, because unless they claimed differently it's impossible to prove.

The difference is that with religious true believers, there is contradictory evidence to the proposition, while with Premanand, there is no evidence one way or another. Supposing that Premanand is facing death with no internal emotional reaction at all based solely on the note he wrote is like supposing that Kuroneko lacks emotions based on his posts here.