Warhammer 40K 3rd/4th edition rules misc analysis thread

[Bob the Gunslinger]

Does this mean we'll have to re-estimate the Imperium's space capabilities upward? If the Imperium can lose millions of ships (even if only temporarily) and still continue to function, it must have a much larger fleet than the approximately ten million ships we thought they had.

[Imperial Overlord]

Does this mean we'll have to re-estimate the Imperium's space capabilities upward? If the Imperium can lose millions of ships (even if only temporarily) and still continue to function, it must have a much larger fleet than the approximately ten million ships we thought they had.

It's not the "still function" that's the issue, because travel time is always iffy through the warp so even a large number of ships being delayed isn't going to cause a collapse. That the Imperium can lose a billion astropaths and has "millions upon millions of ships" in one (presumably large) region of space means that the Imperium:

1) probably has more than ten million ships because millions were affected over region x

2) The Imperium can muster more than a 1,000 astropaths per member world, which gives us a the first good lower limit on psykers that I've seen.

[Connor MacLeod]

I wasnt thinking of the emperor's mercy ships. I was thinking more of the "Super heavy troop transports" mentioned in the BFG magazine (I believe) and discussed here

Super heavy transports are used to support large fleet actions, such as planetary assaults. Each is capable of carrying tens of thousands of men and thousands of vehicles. They are also used by Adeptus Mechanicus Titan Legions for moving their huge war machines or enough munitions to supply an entire army.

Assuming between 1e11 and 1e12 troops annually, and that 10% of that number is moved via the Super heavy, and that each carries 1e5 (one hundred thousand) troops... you would need between a hundred thousand and a million such transports, minimum. This number almost certainly would double since it mentions supplies (nevermind titans) and there is a super-heavy fuel transport just like it which is also worked with army size, so at least one of those would be there as well. I chose this transport as well because it is explicitly mentioned that they always receive "dedicated" escorts because of their importance for each "squadron." They're mentioned as being worth "two" regular transports, so I'm assuming a squad is maybe around cruiser size (2-4) so we might figure on anywhere from 25,000 to 500,000 "squadrons" minimum, each requiring an escort. If we assume a squadron of just four Cobras (which seems a drastic underestimate) you get between 100,000 to 2 million. The low end may not seem like much, but its worth noting that I am drastically DRASTICALLY lowballing this thing, and even then that 100,000 ships is nearly 1/3 of my previous "low end" estimate for Imperial fleet numbers (5,000 Battlefleets) and that is dedicated *solely* to transporting troops, nevermind values for any other transports. (I'm sure the Emperor's beneficietn type would invariably escorted as well given they have larger numbers of troops)

As far as the "millions and millions of ships and billion+ astropaths" it is certianly implied it might be in a localized area, but we're not explicitly told so there's room for wiggling (and some idiot will wiggle) but its still useful even as a lower limit.

I'll have to revise my fleet numbers upwards almost certainly. I've gotten ahold of Warpstorm and Armada some time back and have recently been sifting through them. At some point I'm going to have to re-read and re-analyze the BFG novels too (but thats okay I liked reading them and will enjoy reading them again). I'm kinda in this point where I'm resigned that some of my earlier stuff will have to be revised to fit with more current things, and that includes Battlefleet Gothic and some of the early novels (I have the Cain and Ghosts omnibuses and the Guard omnibuses for that reason. Whether or not I re do anything else is not certain.) I know I missed alot of things in some of them.

For example Black Admiral/Captain Orsai pointed out ot me that in Execution Hour BFG is noted to have "hundreds" of warships (and this apparently pre-dates the Gothic War) and recent novels I hadn't covered when I did BFG (Dark Disciple, Emperor's Mercy, etc.) have certainly implied Battlefleet total sizes have moved upwards, so that has to be addressed.
I've never properly addressed Reserve fleets either, and that has to be addressed as well. I'll probably have to re-look at some of the world distirbutions again to reflect the known numbers for hive worlds as it is also. I'm also curious to see what the upcoming Rogue Trader supplements may reflect, given that Dark Heresy has along with 5th edition expanded greatly on the capabilities and scope of the Imperium...

There is also much in the shipbiulding vein that I never properly addressed and will have to re do more coherently.

Tenatively, however, it is definitely looking as if fleet numbers will be going up. Or at the very least, the numbers will reflect more of the "higher end" (IE millions). for both warships and transports and all of that. Nevermind a more complicated breakdown (esp given what we learn about the Calixis sector..)

[Falkenhayn]

The current timeline states that the Imperium is rough shape for having gone on the strategic offensive from approximately 050.m37 to 100.m38, and in close to a maximal effort as well.

From Emperor's Mercy, The "8th Route Fleet"*, which is "by no means large", is 60-70 ships centered on the 8+km long Grand Cruiser Carthage. In contrast to the IoM OOB at the Battle of Gethsemane from Shadow Point and its description...though the lack of Battleships is curious.


*Never seen this designation for an IoM fleet before. I'm guessing it refers to ships under a Warmaster's personal command, and is analogous to a Corps or Army level reserve.

[Connor MacLeod]

The current timeline states that the Imperium is rough shape for having gone on the strategic offensive from approximately 050.m37 to 100.m38, and in close to a maximal effort as well.

And that differs from any of the millions of other grimdark pronoucnements they have previously said, in that single book alone for that matter??

From Emperor's Mercy, The "8th Route Fleet"*, which is "by no means large", is 60-70 ships centered on the 8+km long Grand Cruiser Carthage.

The Grand cruiser was 9 km long. IIRC the 8 km long was implied to be a Dominator class (which it can't be.. either its something else or the size is wrong)

In contrast to the IoM OOB at the Battle of Gethsemane from Shadow Point and its description...though the lack of Battleships is curious.

The Gothic Sector had the slight problem that Chaos bushwhacked them early in the conflict and wiped out a large percentage of their fleet while in drydock, and hat their shipbuilding capability had likewise been hampered. And Gethsemane was before the Warp storms around the gothic sector had cooled down and allowed ships from surrounding sectors in.

*Never seen this designation for an IoM fleet before. I'm guessing it refers to ships under a Warmaster's personal command, and is analogous to a Corps or Army level reserve.

I have in BFG. They make mention of lots of diff formations.. battlesquadrons, battlecruiser Armadas and Fleets (1st BC armada, and 2nd BC fleet IIRC), and escorts are described as "squadrons, flotillas" and "echelones" interchangably. They probably represent the sorts of battlegroups battlefleets get broken up into (Some are temporary, some are semi-permanant).

[Falkenhayn]

And that differs from any of the millions of other grimdark pronoucnements they have previously said, in that single book alone for that matter??

Because it says the IoM went on the attack from something like 020.m37 to 034.m38 and largely exhausted itself. All we're talking about is yearly conscription numbers, numbers of transport ships, numbers of warships, and industrial potential. Did I do something unreasonable?

The Grand cruiser was 9 km long. IIRC the 8 km long was implied to be a Dominator class (which it can't be.. either its something else or the size is wrong)

Yup.

The Gothic Sector had the slight problem that Chaos bushwhacked them early in the conflict and wiped out a large percentage of their fleet while in drydock, and hat their shipbuilding capability had likewise been hampered. And Gethsemane was before the Warp storms around the gothic sector had cooled down and allowed ships from surrounding sectors in.

Ok.

I have in BFG. They make mention of lots of diff formations.. battlesquadrons, battlecruiser Armadas and Fleets (1st BC armada, and 2nd BC fleet IIRC), and escorts are described as "squadrons, flotillas" and "echelones" interchangably. They probably represent the sorts of battlegroups battlefleets get broken up into (Some are temporary, some are semi-permanant).

Sure. My Copy of Zou's 120 miles away right now and I can't argue it further from memory.

[Connor MacLeod]

Because it says the IoM went on the attack from something like 020.m37 to 034.m38 and largely exhausted itself. All we're talking about is yearly conscription numbers, numbers of transport ships, numbers of warships, and industrial potential. Did I do something unreasonable?

I was mocking the manner and phrasing they used to explain that. The way you explained it is fairly logical and straightforward. The way they portray it in the 5th edition is that this has somehow left the Imperium dangerously weakened and overextended and ripe for the picking and all the other grimdarknegative things. Whereas I would naturally expect the Imperium's offensives to run out of momentum eventually, but the end result would likely be the consolidation and development of whatever new territories they have reclaimed or colonized or captured, which you would THINK strengthens them in the long term, not leave them open to some horrible horrible fate.

Case in point: Examining the timeline, they call the post "Redemption" period "the Waning" because apparently now the Imperium is mysteriously vulnerable to a series of massive new attacks... after having gotten done with all these crusades and shit. The only way this possibly makes sense is if they somehow have suffred massive, collosal losses (even though we know by the time of the 13th black crusade that the Imperium still outnumbers and outproduces most of its unified oppposition.)

And then they mark the next segment as "the time of Ending" as being the time that humanity will go kicking and fighting into demise. Yeah, right...

[Falkenhayn]

Well that's fine. Not to be a cold fish, but you've got to work on your delivery there, Connor.

[Connor MacLeod]

More "Battlezone Cityfight"...

Page 21

There are two types of command activated mine - shredder mines and plasma mines.

...

A Shredder mine has an explosive charge which is used to unleash a hail fo shrapnel towards a target.

Mine warfare for the Imperium. Plasma mines would be a nasty surprise (like a plasma grenade, which I'm pretty sure could be argued to exist in the IG arsenal based on this) but a frag mine is bad too. It is also interesting that the mines are "command activated" - yay remote control.

Page 21

Jammer packs must be allocated to units. If an enemy unit attempts ot activate a Command activated Mine within 8" of the unit it will only work on a roll of 6.

The mine activation signals can be jammed. Again, electronic warfare, even at Guard level.

Page 21

Breaching charges are used to blast small holes in the walls of fortificed buildings and bunkers so that they can be assaulted.

This presumably is the sort of weapon mentioned that troops might carry if they need to make a hole in a wall (as opposed to using conventional weapons to blsat a hole)

Page 21

Their [Stummers] effect is to deaden noise and make detection that much more difficult.

Good weapon for stealth and infiltration operations.

Page 31

After six weeks of fighting the Orks launched a last desperate assault on the Valhallans' main food chamber, but were once again lured into a deadly trap.

Valhalla as I remember was a Hive world, but it seems to be a civilised world (bordering perhaps on Hive status, given how prominent and numerous Valhallan regiments are.) It is interesting to note that the Orks needed to capture/take the Valhallans food supplies. This could suggest that the Ork's "mobile ecosystem" does not do well in exteremely adverse cold enviroments (or is less effective in cold enviroments in general.) Given what we know of the "spore propogation" method this does seem plausible.

Page 32

Hive Tempestora initially fell to the Orks very early in the war when the Orks surprised rthe defenders with an amphibious ttack mounted form a fleet of specially constructed submersibles.

..
Quickly enslaving the populace Orks forced them to manufacture weapons for the invaders' use. Morale remained good enough to ensure that many finished vehicles had serious mechanical difficulties although the price of this defiance was paid in blood.

Orks showing deviousness nad flexibility of tactics when needed with ah amphibious attack. Also, they may not always make stuff, but they do use other people's stuff to make more stuff. (to put it in Ork context: Looted factories and Looted factory workers.)

Page 32

Balle Alpha was besieged by an Ork force under the command of Ork Warlord Gogard. The city walls were well built and halted the attack with minimal losses. The Orks regrouped and stated to barrage the city iwth salvoes of fire from their gargants. The bombardment continued for days but, just when it seemed the walls could hold out no longer, Blood angels reinforcements landed to save the day.

Gargants as a rule are less powerful than a Battle Titan (though several can still be a threat to one). But it does say something about 40K building materials to be able to stand up to constant bombardment of near-titan grade firepower for days on end. Even without void shields (though this durability may be explained by use of power fields, which have been known to reinforce physical strucutre.s CF th enovel Nightbringer and the Arbites precinct there.)

Page 32

Iyanden Craftworld was unlucky enought of ind itself in the path of the ships of Hive Fleet Kraken. The presence of the Tyranid bio-ships disrupted the Craftworld's warp drive, and the Tyranids were then able to breach the Craftworld's defences and infest the huge ship with untold thousands of bio-engineered killing machines.

..

Once Isolated form the hive mind thoes Tyranid creatures still on board were quickly hunted down and exterminated, but the once beautiful city was all but destroyed and over two-thirds of its population were killed in the Tyranid attack.

It's interesting to note that Iyanden craftowlrd has a "warp drive", which is curios since many Craftworld to my memory must merely drift through space. Then again, I can't remember for certain if its ever stated to be IMPOSSIBLE for Craftworld not to travel in the warp. It could merley be that their fear of Slaanesh makes it foolish or risky to do so (in this case, Slaanesh would be a smaller danger than the Tyranids.)

It is interesting that Tyranid fleets appare to be able to disrupt warp jump ability, although givne the whole "shadow of the warp" thing and its ability to fuck with warp travel when IN the wapr, it makes sense that it can not only scale down, but also might make entering the warp hazardous or impossible.

They lost "2/3" of their population, but I dont remember offhand how many they have now. Thousands? Maybe out of a population of tens of thousands? hard to say.

Page 33

"Sorcerer... I want to send the Emperor's lackeys a message that this is not over, that the fear will always be with them.

..

Speak sorcerer, is it time?

Asuramandos did not reply - his eyes were far away...

..

Captain Fane started as the comm-link burst into life, it was clearer than usual-...

..

He was glad it was clear, though, because the incoming orders were important.

..

"They are leaving but they will quickly forget why. Hurry."

What basically happens here is that a Chaos Sorcere uses his powers to fuck with the Guardsmen's comm links and send a fake message to draw them out.

Page 42

The street echoed to the amplified roar of the Chaos Dreadnought, its plasma cannon glowing like a small sun as it disgorged raw energy, each bolt creating bubbling pools of molten matter where the road once was. The Cadians flinched from the heat only to find themselves under fire from the roof of the cellarion, the storm of explosive bolts forcing them back. A further burst from the roof of the precinct house forced them back the other way, men clutching at their flak jackets as the long range shots struck home. The whole platoon swayed under the terrible volley, cut down like wheat before the scythe.

Bolt shells punching through flak but not exploding people. Also plasma cannon melting arbitrarily large parts of molten roadway.


Page 45

Standing at least a foot taller than any of them, te Chaos Marine lifted his arms out to either side offering himself as a target, and he heard a voice of velvet edged with steel speak to him.

Chaos Marine "at least a foot taller"

Page 45

Wylie heard his loader yelling, "Fire, fire fire," and saw his squad mates' lasgun fire explode across the traitor's armour before he fired his missile launcher. miraculously, one of the lasgun bolts found a weakness in the giant's kneepad and he tumbled to one side just as Wylie's krak missile slashed thorugh the space he had been standing in.

Lasgun shot finds weak point in armor to penetrate, appears to at least temporarily incapacitate marine.

Page 45

The line of Chaos Marines were engulfed in flame. From below the parapet two further gouts of flame roared up and over the crenellated wall, wreathing the Night Lords in a sea of living flame.

..

Then the flames died and the Chaos Marines turned to face DeJano and his comrades. Their cermaite armour was blackned but not one had fallen.

Flamers, which can cremate large parts of the human body, do fuck all to CSMs.

PAge 47

With a sudden change of balance, Gorsameth kicked out, sending a crate of ammunition that must have weighed as much as a man flying at the surviving Cadians.

..

"No, not before we have your soul," he said, his bod tensing briefly and then realxing.

..

In teh precinct courtyard, Fane's hand twisted involuntarily on the hilt as the blade descended, catching Gorsameth with the flat of the blade only. The next thing Fane heard was the Guardsmen being crushed in Gorsameth's bearhug. Reille's bones cracked and he was dropped like a broken rag doll at Fane's feet.

Examples of the physical capabilites of CSM - kicking a box weighg some 50-100 kg some distance (many meters if not tens of meters), and crushing the bones in the human body with a bearhug.

[Falkenhayn]

More of a placeholder than anything, but there's an incidence that I'm trying to dig up on SB, where a single shot from a Volcano Cannon on a Shadowsword vaporizes the gates of an ork fortress. I abstracted the dimensions to 100mx20mx1m, which fitted the dimensions given, and called it iron. Sent it to a friend of mine doing his Master's in Nanotechnology, and he got 32kt.

EDIT: Gunheads: pgs 238 and 254

The ork wall was easily a hundred metres high.
[...]
It was plated with great metal slabs of armour
[...]
There were vast iron gates, as tall as the wall itself, spaced at intervals all along its length, but none were open. They looked very heavy, very solid.

Then, suddenly, the whole bulk of the Shadowsword shook as if it had been kicked by a giant. Blazing white light burst from her cannon, lancing straight across the battlefield, striking the massive ork gate dead centre.

The air shook with a massive thunderous crack. The iron gate glowed blindingly bright for an instant, and then seemed to vanish completely just as if it had never been there at all. The armoured wall around it glowed white, then yellow, then orange and red. Gobs of molten metal began to rain down on the ground.

[Connor MacLeod]

Another Cityfight update... a bigass one too...

Page 52

Generatoriums are the source of the city's power supply. The methods used are very varied: Whilst Vogen relies primarily on hydro power, many small factories rely on cheaper generators working with organic waste.

Types of power sources that qualify as "generatoriums" - like with their tanks and other vehicles, it is quite diversified. Though they appear to have very advaned biofuel tech (which we saw with the wood chipper fuel source)

Page 53

Hab-blocks come in all shapes and sizes; some are little more than abandoned manufactorums, others are immense skyblocks.

Basically apartment housing for Imperial citizens, and they are vary diverse.

Page 55'

Manufactorum are the factories of the Imperium. Strongly built, they will often become defensive strongpoints.

Translation: The Imperium builds tough. We knew this. This is why so many places look like castles.

Page 68

At the start of the Gothic War the Imperial Navy anchorage above the Hive World of Bladen in the Lysades sub-sector was devastated by Abbadon's surprise attacfk.

..

In the square the men of the 35th Cadian threew a line of improvised defences across the approaches and took up positions in a few carefully selcted buildings which they fortified as best they could. The balance of the force and all their vehicles took their stand at the foot of the steps leading up to the Cathedral gates. Cardinal Andrallos stood behind them under the Ecclesiarchal banner surrounded by his Confessors.

Naval base at Bladen during the Gothic War. As the BFG rulebook notes, many Naval bases were attacked during the Gothic War's early stages.

Also the Cadians fought at one end of the square protecting the entrance fo the cathedral.

Page 68

The Chaos flet subjected the hive to a sustained bombardment, the city shield held but the Imperial forces in the city were blinded to the evens outside. The Black Legion landed as close to Massena as the bombardment allowed nad blasted their way through to a subterranean rail-link running from Massena to Tegus hive. Passing beneath the shield the rail-link was secured by a series of massive gates, these were opened by insurgents to admit Abbadon's forces.

Void shielding of the Hive city shrugs off orbital bombardment of unknown yield. Presumably at least megaton range yields given statements WRT orbital bombardment. As a Hive city, it can certianl endure enviromental effects without flinching.

WE also learn that (like with Vervunhive in Necropolis) the shielding effects do not extend below ground (The way they can with SW shields), so it is possible to get "under" them, as they are infiltrated by ABbadon's forces. It does make you wonder why they didnt think to secure them better, though. It is interesting to note they do have underground rial links between cities.


Page 68

The roof of the Imperial Exhcange was soon packed with Black Legion havoc squads. Almost at once a firefight erupted across the ancient plaza as the havocs engaged the Imperial forces around the square.

As noted, the firefight engagement occurs across the square.

Page 68

The daemonic horde was halted some fifty paces from the steps and then driven back inexorably by the unceasing volley fire. The many statues of saints and martyrs that adorned the square were destroyed alongside the abominations of Chaos. The daemons began to fade, their grip on the realuniverse waning under the physical bombardment of the Guardsmen and the faith of the Ecclesiarchy. Left alone the Chaos Dreadnoughts rampaged on but were unable to break through the line although one overturned a Leman Russ and set a clawed foot on the Cathedral steps before it was destroyed.

..

As the last Dreadnought was reduced to mangled metal...

Cadian forces decimate statues, Daemonic forces, and a Dreadnought with combined fire. Not really possible to calc, but it is indicative of just how frigging nasty those forces can be. Even allowing for armor support, it does tend to suggest lasguns (in universe) can be quite effective despite the gameplay issues.

It is also interesting to notice that conventional firepower, at least when backed by Imperial faith (which can have tangible effects) is an effective counter against at least low level Daemons.

Page 68

The taint of Chaos was upon it and in 159.M41, sixteen years after it fell to the dark gods Massena was put to rest by a blessed Exterminatus at the command of Lord Admiral Ravensburg and the Inquisitor Lord Proccuppio Vex.

Hive world gets exterminatus-ed. We dont know the method, but it evidently purges the planet of Chaos taint.

Page 70

The vast space-borne cities of the Eldar ply the darkness of space and are home ot the remnants of this once proud race. Constructed, or more accurately grown by beings whose capacity for art and culture is boundless...

..
Craftwolrds are self contained and self-sufficient creations, composed of sprawling forest domes which act as giant lungs for the Craftworl da swell as peaceful areas for quiet contmeplation and mediation.

..

The exterior of the Craftwolrd is studded with enormous docking bays and these house the Craftworld's fleet of starships.

More bio-organic analogies/references to Eldar etechnology. They are (as we jknow) basically self contained ecosystems, and have their own fleets.

Page 70

The heart of each Craftworld is composed of a psychotropic material known as wraithbone, which forms the basic structure of the gigantic vessel. A sub-sect of the Eldar known as Bonesingers utilise their psychomorphic talents to accelerate the growth of wraithbone crystals to mould them to the desired form. In this way the Eldar shape the structure of the Craftworld to the desires...

...

The wraithbone acts in much the same ay as a living organism's skeletal structure, but also as its central nervous system. It resonates with psychic energy and is connected to all things within the craftworld, particularily a secret place hidden within the Craftworld known as the Dome of the Crystal Seers. This sacred place houses the heart of the Infinity circuit, where the spirit stones of the dead are laid to rest. A deeply spiritual location, it is here that the revered ancestors take root within the wriathbone core of the Craftworld and become part of the EternalMatrix.

Descirption of wraithbone and its effects, and the roles of bonesingers. It acts as a communications system, power transfer system, and computer system.

Page 70

At each Craftworld's centre is the shrine to the Kaela Mensha Khaine, the Bloody-Handed God, the embodiemnt of the Eldar's warlike nature. When the Eldar go to war, the wraithbone core pulses with the heartbeat of the awakening Avatar and the Eldar are filled with thoughts of death and bloodshed. Scattered throughout the Craftworld, the shrines of each of the Eldar warrior aspects pulse with vitality as the Eldar arm themselves for battle.

The AVatar has a distinct psychic link (esp via wraithbone) with the Eldar of the craftworld, especially the Aspect shrines. This does suggest their "gods" were similar to Chaos and Ork gods.. basically some sort of gestalt conciousness or "control system" for the psychic Eldar race (a more mystical verson of the Tyranid Hive Mind, basically.) Since Khaine is merely the "embodiemnt of eldar Warlike nature" this seems likely, as we know that Daemons and other warp entitites are often created from the emotional/psychic energies/impressions generated by living beings.

Page 71

some Ork worlds fit well into the Feral category, with walled cities and a generally low level of technology. Orks are migratory however and the world they are found on is simply the most recnt one they have conquered.

..

In general Ork cities are unplanned and anarchic, there is no real road net and it is quite common for the more important dewllings to be protectd by fortifications entirely separate to those of the city at large.

..

Ork cities will always contain slaves. If the city is a conquered one they will be an underclass living in the ghettos. If it is an Ork city then there will be extnesive slave pits. Central to many Ork cities are fighting pits, deeply dug with stake and studded edges they are used to settle disputes between Orks in a mutually agreeable fashion and serve a similar function to assembly buildings, law courts, and prisons rolled into one.

Orks are pretty much a nomadic race. Some may settle, but it often is not permanant, only as long as they need. Design (if such term can apply) and composition of Ork cities mentioned, as well as a reference to their need/use of slave labor, and what passes for their judicial system.

Page 71

The twisting alleys of an Ork city make a dangerous combat zone and it is not surprising that most Imperial generals prefer to level them with artillery than storm them. Sometimes though it is not possible to wait for the artillery to do its job and an assault is unavoidable. Ork cities built on solid rock will often have a network of subterranean tunnels burrowed out beneath them. Whilst these are only really used by Grots to get away from too much Ork supervision, in the event of an attack they can be used to provide sheltr from bobmardment or air attack. Even when the city itself is flattened cleansing the tunnels beneath remains an extremely hazarodus operation.

Surprisingly it is noted that the Imperial Guard prefers to use long range bombardment to deal with Ork cities rather than do attritonal warfare assaults right off the bat. so we can safely say (yet again) they do not ALWAYS resort to the bayonet charge right off the bat.

If we knew the size of the city and the size of the artillry forces bombarding, we probably could make a firepower estimate (though it is worth noting that they don't affect the tunnels belowground.) (craters less than 10-20 meters in radius, perhaps?)

Page 71

All cities are full of the sort of shadowed moist ground needed by Orks to spore. It is likely therefore that any city occupied by Orks will need complete cleansing before it can be reoccupied. The extent to which this happens will be decided by how many Orks already live in the region. If their numbers were seriously reduced storming a city the Orks will spore more freely and any relief force will encounter new born Orks very quickly.

Cities are apparently good breeding grounds for Orks. And the more you kill, the more that may come back.

[andrewgpaul]

Reading those excerpts, it looks like Massena is a single Hive on Bladen, not a Hive World in itself. This implies to me that the term "Exterminatus" has an even wider useage than I already thought, if the destruction of a single hive can be called an Exterminatus.

[Raxmei]

Reading those excerpts, it looks like Massena is a single Hive on Bladen, not a Hive World in itself. This implies to me that the term "Exterminatus" has an even wider useage than I already thought, if the destruction of a single hive can be called an Exterminatus.

I vaguely recall one of the older sources supporting that. It was part of how Guard units exposed to chaos would be subject to Exterminatus. Basically the Exterminatus was the removal of all traces of taint by killing everyone exposed. In the case of planetwide corruption that would entail the version of Exterminatus that we're all familiar with, but in more limited cases it could just be a mass execution. Most current sources use Exterminatus only in reference to planet killing.

[Connor MacLeod]

Reading those excerpts, it looks like Massena is a single Hive on Bladen, not a Hive World in itself. This implies to me that the term "Exterminatus" has an even wider useage than I already thought, if the destruction of a single hive can be called an Exterminatus.

I don't think so. If the world had been taken over by Chaos as described, its unlikely to be confined to just one part of the world. Its unlikely they would have focused on just one hive, because otherwise they could have just employed conventional means (its not as if its the first time that they've had to purge Hives of any sort of infestation - hell Tyranids are worse in terms of digging out anyhow. And if they needed to bombard it that would still be different from Exterminatus.)

In any case its not really explicit whether the Exterminatus applies to the whole planet or just that part of it. Massena would be purged if the entire planet was scoured by Exterminatus too.

[andrewgpaul]

Page 68

At the start of the Gothic War the Imperial Navy anchorage above the Hive World of Bladen in the Lysades sub-sector was devastated by Abbadon's surprise attacfk.

..

In the square the men of the 35th Cadian threw a line of improvised defences across the approaches and took up positions in a few carefully selcted buildings which they fortified as best they could. The balance of the force and all their vehicles took their stand at the foot of the steps leading up to the Cathedral gates. Cardinal Andrallos stood behind them under the Ecclesiarchal banner surrounded by his Confessors.

Page 68

The Chaos fleet subjected the hive to a sustained bombardment, the city shield held but the Imperial forces in the city were blinded to the evens outside. The Black Legion landed as close to Massena as the bombardment allowed and blasted their way through to a subterranean rail-link running from Massena to Tegus hive. Passing beneath the shield the rail-link was secured by a series of massive gates, these were opened by insurgents to admit Abbadon's forces.

Page 68

The taint of Chaos was upon it and in 159.M41, sixteen years after it fell to the dark gods Massena was put to rest by a blessed Exterminatus at the command of Lord Admiral Ravensburg and the Inquisitor Lord Proccuppio Vex.

The first quotation implies that subsequent action is also taking place on Bladen. A part you didn't quote,

The ... Black Legion took the opportunity to attack Massena Hive. The Ecclesiarchy was strong on Bladen and Massena was the site of their greatest Cathedral

The second part you quoted is, IMO, the kicker. If Massena is a world in itself, how can there be a rail line from there to another hive?

[Falkenhayn]

Hey Connor. I'm working through Cadian Blood, and there's some fun stuff in it, especially about Nova Cannons. Spoiler

(Like the Terminus Est sucking up two skin-to-skin hits and staying combat capable)

Would you mind it in this thread, or should I revive one from the 40k sticky?

[Connor MacLeod]

Up to you. I'm reading ti too and I know what you mean. As well as the nature of the munitions. Should be fun to play with when I get round to it, but if you want to post it go ahead.

[Falkenhayn]

Well, I don't know the proper math to describe and quantify what they're doing, so you take it.

Can you even make an implosion type nuclear weapon on a Nova Cannon scale?

[Connor MacLeod]

I probably won't touch it unless I do a Nova-cannon specific thread (which I could do maybe if there is a demand, or maybe just a general KE weapon calc thread) so if you want to go ahead and post em and then I'll just add my comments like I always do

[Falkenhayn]

I thought Necronlord did a Nove Cannon calc, coming up with something like 615 TT for a direct hit?

[Connor MacLeod]

There have een lots of nova cannon calcs I'm sure he's done one. WR probably did one.. lots of 40Kers probably have done em. Its one of the rather straigthforward calcs we have for firepower.

[Connor MacLeod]

Next to last update for Battlezone: Cityfight.

Page 72

Virtually every human community has within it the potential to become a hive city.

...

Hive cities are not constructed with any overall vision, instead they grow as their population grows and can be as diverse as the planets on which they are situated.

Definition/evolution of hive worlds. Basically any planet will given enough time become a hive world it seems. Its possible forge worlds fall under the definition of "hives" technically since IIRC there are cases they are referred to having Hives (And some hives are heavily industrialized.) - the distinction being that Forge worlds belong strictly to the AdMech.


Page 72

"The most commmon are hives such as are encountered on Armageddon and Necromunda. Vast mountainous spires rising from among foothills of waste and debris like giant ant hills. On ice worlds such as Valhalla and Inwit, the hives are tunneled out of the ice and rock, galleries and chambers plunging deep beneath the surface of an inhospitable world. Rarer are worlds like Fathom which are predominantly water coveered and the few solid pieces of land are used as a foundation for tall citadels surrounded by floating shanty towns of old sea vessels bound together and used ot support additional buildings. On the fabled Black Planet the hives are built within huge geothermal heat exchangers which stand side by side in the mile deep chasms opened up by unrestrained strip mining during the Dark Age of Technology. Here, each great rectangular block is a city in tis own right and a variety of gravitic vehciles ply between them right down to the thick fog that obscures the deeps and the block's foundations. More common is the sprawl - this is a type of emergent hive. Already there might be several huge towers but the bulk of the city is a network of industrial zones and habitats still open to the sky. Such a city might be walled.

More discussion of Hives and their sheer diversity. Armageddon and Necromund are described as "most common" - which we may take to mean that they are representative of the sturcture, if not the size/population of the "truly ancient" Hives mentioned in 5th edition (the 30,000 some odd ones that exist.) Next fact of note: Valhalla is described as a Hive world, which adds it to Krieg, Tallarn, Vostroya and other "major" regimental distributors of note who seem to be high-output Guard producers (which I imagine is supposed to explain how "common" they are.)

That said, I believe 5th edition changed this classification for all those planets. This may be either retconned or mean that such are the "quasi hives" that sitll have some semblance of an ecology and aren't quite as populous as true hives (yet).

Note the mention of the "Black Planet" (also known as Birmingham, an ongoing joke in 40K from way back in 1st edition IIRC), and the mention of having its own gravitic vehicles (which runs rather contrary to the notion that "Grav tech is ultra-rare/unheard of in the Imperium")

Page 72

Feral worlds are not well enough developed ot support large cities. In most cases it is not until a culture reaches a levle of development akin to Sixteenth century Earth that cities get large enough to stage a true cityfight. There are exceptions obviously, on Duvatis stands an acropolis containing 70 major temples each with numerous chapels and ancillary buildings the whole area being some five miles square.

A bit on Feral worlds and boundary levels for technology (by which they probably become feudal).

Page 73

Deep within the Eye of Terror the natural laws of reality are flouted as Daemon Princes use their enormous powers to shape their worlds to their unnatural desires.

..

The streets writhe in eternal motion, faces leer form liquid walls and screams issue from eyeless creatures forever bound to the substance of the city.

...

Vast, continent-spanning factories belch fumes into bloody skies, churning out weapons for the daemon armies that populate the world. Lie is cheap and these worlds are populated by human renegades and creatures that are barely recongnisable as human any more.

..

On one world, daemonic bells, larger than starships nad requiring the labour of millions ot sound, ring out over twisted cities and the thunder of their peals can be heard for thousands of light years.. Yet another world resonates with the dolorous chanting of billions of daemons of Nurgle as they endlessly circle the globe, counting the number of plagues that ravage the universe.

A bit on the conditions on the Eye of Terror. Note that despite the oddities we see, I question whether physics stops working. Rather, I suspect that Daemons simply have an easier time manipulating things saturated with Chaos in a more heavily warp-based enviroment... things mutate more rapidly. (the shape/form of matter is both more malleable, and Daemons also have more raw power on hand to make use of.)

Page 73

Cities of Khorne are filled with sacirfical altars, blood pools, executioner's blocks and all manner of implements of pain and death, whilst those of Nurgle are pestilential nightmares of contagion and delerium. To venture within such places is to bear witness to fly choked throughfares, stinking hovels of indescribable filth and enormous vats of diseased, liquefied flesh. Charnel pits overflow with the decaying corpses of those who have succumbed to Nurgle's Rot, only to rise again as daemonic servants of the Plague Lord

Cities of slaanesh are places of such sensory overload that ven to look upon their majestic excesses is to invite corruption and madness. Everywhere are shrines to hedonism in all its multitudinous forms. Temples to excess in noise, colour, lust, knowledge, torture and insanity abound. No form of self-indulgence is frowned upon and on every street corner the worshippers of Slaanesh pursue their desires with no thought for the morrow. The Changer of Ways, Tzeentch, has cities, but they are so deeply saturated in magical energy that they can be readily reshaped by an adept of sufficient power. Despite this the servants of Tzeentch have a predilection for silver towers and their cities are often crowned with them.

More Chaos world stuff.

Page 73

City defences can include walls of rockcrete hundreds of yards high, massed turret-mounted weapons batteries, multiple belts of razorwire and dragons teeth, plus void shield generators.

Elaboration on the various forms of defense cities (likely Imperial ones) can take. The mention of void shields is notable, as it has been depicted in various novels (most notably the various Ghosts novels) as well as being re-mentioned in the Apocalpyse supplement for 40K prior to 5th edition.

Also the height of the walls sets a lower limit on weapons range, although in practice its probably much higher (several times at least, since the walls could arguably be higher than just 200 yards and with razorwire and dragon's teeth in the way suggests they'd fire at an angle. It coudl be reasonably expected that weapons range for small arms would at least match modern ones (at least 400-600 meters, in other words). Note that in books (like Ghostmaker) wall heights can reach a kilometer or more.

Page 74

Khai-Zhan is an alpha-class Agri World located approximately seventy-five years ot the galactic south of the Important Imperial planet of Cadia.

..

Although Khai-Zhan lies well over a hundred light years from the Eye of Terror, its losss would be a terrible blow to Imperial Defences.

..

It is the most important fporudcer of foodstuffs in the Cadian sector, and the Khai-Zhan kelp cakes form over half the dietary requirements of the human populations on planets within a hundred light year radius. The nutritious seaweed which is used to produce Khai-Zhan's main export is collected and processed by huge mile-long harvesting ships, which constantly criss-cross the shallow oceans that make up 98.3% of the planet's surface.

Note the "mile long" harvesting ships. If they can build them that big on the ground its probably a safe bet they'd be at least that big in space. It also does indicate that Agri Worlds aren't just worlds where crops and veggies are grown on a planetary scale - one can presume they also include fisheries or livestock also.

Page 74

Khai-Zhan is home to some four million Imperial citizens, most of whom work on the harvesting ships and in the towns and ports that service them.

Population and distribution of the agri world.

Page 74

The fleet of harvesting ships are owned and run by a number of family cartels, each of which is based in a different port.

Reference to commercial interests on the planet, which by now should come as no surprise to people, but which I feel is worth noting since the economic side of 40K isn't often considered (even though something has to fuel and support the galactic war situation even in a magical pseudofantasy universe.)

Page 74

Vogen is Khai-Zhan's capital and form here the planet's Imperial Governor rules in the name of the Imperium. It is the only city on Khai-Zhan that has a spaceport. Because of this all of the cartels must bring their goods to Vogen in order to have them exported, and for most of Khai-Zhan's history this has allowed hte planet's govenror to keep the unruly family business empires in line with Imperial policy.

One of the means by which the Planetary governor on this planet maintains control over the local cartels, as well as implying a bit of off-planet economic trading (unless this is all purely tithe stuff, which seems unlikely.)

It also seems likely that this is "standard practice" on most Imperial worlds as a means of control. Since the Imperium proper owns virtually all the long range starships, is in league with the Navigator houses AND the AdMech, it seems that economic sanctions (or simply just blackmail) serves as well as military might (And the Arbites) to help keep some control on an otherwise-unwieldy empire.

Page 75

The tragedy of the Khai-Zhan uprising was that it could have been easily avoided. It came about through the greed and misjudgement of one man, Imperial Governor Harikon Kadulus. As already noted, all goods exported Khai-Zhan had to leave from vogen's single spaceport. Since the founding of the planet a tax had been levied on the goods exported, technically to pay for the support and upkeep of the spaceport and Planetary Defence Force. It had been long accepted that some of these taxes found their way into the pockets of staff and officials of the planetary government. Governor Kadulus, however, was a vain and greedy man and he demanded a bigger and bigger share of the money raised form the charges levied on the cartels for using the spaceport. This had a two-fold effect; it led to cut-backs int he planet's defences in order to help pay for Kadulus' excesses, and it led to growing discontent amongst hte planet's population as the cartels began passing on their increased costs to the workforce.

It should come as no shock that the Imperium possesses greedy self centered fucks like this in positions of power (indeed, much of the "nobility" in the various worlds of the Imperium are little better) but this passage does indicate that (at least from an Imperial POV) such activity is considered negligence rather than being a virtue - at least if conducted past certain 'acceptable' thresholds. And it does indicate that the Imperium does expect its governors to make a serious effort at defense spending and not to piss off the populace needlessly (even brutal totalitarian empires can see benefit in not oppressing people too much.)

Page 75

The spark came in the form of von Guyen, a petty thief and con-man who was wanted in over a dozen Imperial systems for impersonating officials of the Ecclesiarchy and convincing gullible citizens to donate their savings to him for 'the betterment of the Imperial Cult.

Implication of passenger travel between planets existing, and that "savings" implies some sort of banking system on greater than an interplanetary scale (conning people out of their savings on multiple worlds would neccessiate converting funds from one denomniation to another, presumably.)

This man probably would also be on a "most wanted" list at the sector/sub-sector level by the Arbites, particularily since he would be fucking around with the Ecclesiarchy.

Page 75

When von Guyen arrived on Khai-Zhan he immediatley set about founding covens dedicated to the gods of Chaos, his honeyed words and promises of wealth and freedom from Imperial oppression falling on the fertile ground tilled by Kadulus' corruption and greed. Very quickly von Guyen was able to build up a network of covens dedicated ot overthrowing the government of the planet. Once they were storng neough in numbers von Guyan's followers began arming themselves and preparing for war.

..

On the twelfth day of the Khia-Zhan's fifth bi-lunar cycle, just over a decade after von Guyan had arrived on the planet, the rebels struck.

And here we see the reason WHY the Imperium might consider khai-Zahn's actions needlessly stupid and something that could have been easily avoided. While you cna't be "too" liberal in some cases lest people fall into debauchery and chaos, you can't be too strict and totally oppress the fuck out of them. Either way plays into Chaos's hands.

Also an example of the length of time it takes for a Chaos cult to be founded on a world and prepared for coup.

[Connor MacLeod]

Last update for Battlezone: Cityfight. Next up is Cities of Death (4th edition, urban fighting)

Page 75

As well as human warriors, the rebels were aided by daemonic craetures summoned to the battlefield frm the warp. However, the actual number of such summonings was very small indeed. The exact reason for this is unclear, but it would appear that Vogen's great distance from the Eye of Terror and the lack of real deviotion ot any of the Chaos cults shown by von Guyan's followers and the Night Lords Space Marines may have been contributory factors.

It seems from this we can derive two primary criteria for Chaos activity - proximity to a warp/realspace interface (likley a major consideration), and the level of faith/worship amongst cultists (which we may consider a forms of "artificial" warp/realspce interface, since the conneciton to the warp that all humans have basically dOES serve that very function.) And the Night Lords in partiuclar are hardly the most ardent of Chaos followers (more renegades, really.)

This may indicate that some worlds very far away from places like the Eye may have little or no Chaos activity at all (although the Eye is hardly the only warp entity in the galaxy, either.)

Page 75

Although they lacked heavy equipment in the form of armoured vehicles or heavy artillery, many of the cultists were well-armed with lasguns and heavy weapons such as missile launchers and heavy bolter which had been stolen from the Planetary Defence Force or smuggled onto the planet.

It may be presumed that the lack of heavy vehicles on the rebels part is due to this being an AGri world - not likely to be heavily industrialized in a military sense (unlike some civilised or hive worlds for example.) They also probably don't have much in the way of an armoury, and what they do have is rather secured (either with the PDF or the ARbites)

Also note of interplanetary weapons smuggling. Likely via pirates or smugglers or other short-range independent shippers like Free Traders.

Page 75

At the start of the uprising the cultists had little training or experience, but this was quickly learned over the course of the campaign, and by the end of the fighting the best cultist units were the equal of any of the Caidan Imperial Guard units they fought.

Not all Chaos cultists are insane "human wave" style lunatics, although given how they are described (and the aforementioned lack of devotion) they may have more in common with rebels than actual heretics or chaos worshippers. Still, it does indicate that well-trained military formations like the Blood Pact are not neccesarily an anomaly amongst Chaos forces.

Page 75

About a third of the KZ-PDF went over to the rebels, providing von Guyan with a cadre of well-trained and equipped personnel which proved invaluable.

..

Later in the campaign the arrival of Imperial Navy fighters and orbiting spacecraft made it increasingly difficult for rebel armour and artillery to operate successfully....

The defection of a fair chunk of the PDF may help explain some of the skill of the rebels/cultists in later stages (Despite the prejudice of the Guard towrads such troops it is known that some can be VERY well trained, which isn't shocking since the Guard largely comes from those PDF to begin with...)

Interesting here is the implication that the Rebels lacked anything resembling aerial support in their campaign, although it does seem that at some point they DID get armoured vehicles (Even though they apparently didn't start out with them.)

If "orbiting spacecraft" implies warships, this may indicate that starship weapons can possess enough accuracy to at least hit vehcile formations out in the open, if not outright vehicles. This also reinforces why we may not always see the guard employing mobility warfare - since it isn't really possible to hide from an opponent who has orbital superiority.

Page 76

Over the millenia the Night Lords have seeded many uninhabited planets close in the Cadian Gate with their forces in order to take advantage of just such an opportunity as the Khai-Zhan uprising.

The Night Lords it seems take a page out of the Alpha Legion playbook and deliberately foster cultist cells on various worlds to suit their own purposes.

Page 76

although it is unlikely that more than one hundred Night Lord Chaos Space Marines took part in the uprising, the effect of their presence was out of all proportion to their numbers. Panic spread like wild-fire when word that Chaos Space Marines were on the planet, and the presence of just a squad of these fearsome warriors was enough to break the will of all but the bravest defenders.

..

It was only with the arrival of the 5th and 9th Imperial Fists Space Marine companies that the Imperial forces were really able to adequately deal with the Night Lord units that were fighting on the planet.

The Guard and PDF forces in this case were not able to handle a company of Night Lords space MArines on their own, but given that these are Night Lords this may be less surprising given that the Night Lords favor terror and stealth type warfare as opposed to more direct fighting. That they were highly effective ina psychological manner is also explained by their style of warfare, which no doubt would also hamper the ability of conventional forces to deal with them (as opposed to say, Khornate berserkers from the World Eaters, who will just scream and charge at you mindlessly.)

The fact that 2 companies of Fists were needed may also reflect the effect of the Night Lord doctrine in this case (IE need to spread out to cover possible targets with adequate force.)

Page 76

Endemic corruption affected many [PDF] units, and Governor Kadulus' policy of awarding positions in the PDF to his cronies and synchophants meant that combat efficiency suffered.

..

There were very notable exceptions however. In particular, the troops of the elite Khai-Zhan commando and Kai-Zhan Mountain Ranger regiments fought extremely valiantly.

Again we see reference to the variability in quality of PDF forces, and likely explantions why they may suck (IE patronage and cronyism.).

It is worth noting that PDF forces apparently can include their own special forces/commando groups (At least at the high end) - one wonders if these might be the ones conscripted for annual tithes by the Guard. If so, it may give us a benchmark of possible Guard quality (or at least how it can vary) on the high end.

Page 76

The 122nd Cadian Regiment was already stationed on the planet at the start of the campaign, and offered the only really serious opposition to the rebels in the early hours and days of the uprising.

Later the 9th and 72nd Cadian infantry Regiments were transported to the planet, along with elements of the 3rd Cadian Heavy Tank Regiment, whose Baneblades and Shadowswords proved invaluable in reducing the rebel strongholds in the Dragonspire Mountains to rubble.

..

Nevertheless, the ferocity of the fighting matched anything in Cadian military history, and by the end of the campaign almot a third of the Cadian troops involved had been killed or wounded.

At least 3 Cadian infantry regimetns and part of a tank regiment (including superheavies) were deployed. The enemy forces were numerous (or good enough) to account for 1/3 of those forces as casualties (but not all deaths - we dont know how many were dead and how many wounded)

We can also note that a population of 4 million on an Agir world warranted a 1 regiment Garrison (about 8000 men in this case), which may give us a benchmark in estimating possible garrison sizes (ex: a 8 billion populace civilian planet might warrant several thousand regiments. Mind, this isnt neccesarily a linear relationship, but we could infer something within an order of magnitude or so of plausibility. Call it scores or hundreds of regiments probable.)

We should also note that the rebel bases set up in mountains needed superheavy vehicles to blast apart, which perhaps should tell us something about their durability and superheavy firepower (its at least the equal to if not better than Guard's heaviest artillery - Basilisks, Griffons, Bombards, Medusa, etc.)

Page 76

The Imperial Fists, a First Founding Chapter, had been famed for their skill at siege warfare ever since the days of the Emperor's Great crusade. Their expertise at city fighting was put to good use in the desperate battle for the Palace of Peace...

A bit on the Imperial Fists.

Page 77

All across Vogen people that failed to escape were sacrificed upon makeshift altars dedicated ot the gods of Chaos. The streets ran with blood and the air was rent by the gurgling screams of sacrificial victims. Walls were daubed with the marks of the Chaos gods, and any icons of the Imperial cult were descrated or destroyed. buildings were torched, the fires running unchecked and lighting the city with a dreadful hellishg low. Monstrous creatures, drawn from the warp by these nightmare scenes, appeared and rampaged thorugh teh city, killing all that got in their way, rebel or loyalist alike.

.. and this qualifies as "low" devotion for a Chaos Cult. Creepy.

Page 77

...at the very moment the banner was unfurled a Thunderhawk gunship belonging to the Night Lords Chapter roared down from orbit and landed in the Palace Courtyard disgorging half a dozen squads of Chaos Space Marines to help secure the city.

A thunderhakw that apparently can carry 60 space Marines (as opposed to 30 in other sources.) Then again BFG did hint at Thunderhawks being more msasive than Imperial fighters.... *sigh*

Page 77

Although hundreds of thousands had joined the Chaos covens, and a third of the KZ-PDF had joined the rebellion, the majority of the population remained loyal to the Imperial, and thy now started fighting back. within days, the outnumbered rebels were forced back on the defensive.

This implies that the KZ-PDF was perhaps less than a million troopers total, certainly less than "hundreds of thousands" for the renegade third. Perhaps tens of thousands.

Page 77

The poorly armed and poorly trained cultists suffered especially badly in those early days, with thousands dying in futile wave attacks on Imperial strong-points. The monsters that had appeared to aid the rebels in the first days fighting were either slain in these battles or returned ot the shadowy realm form whence they caim, leaving the rebels to fight unaided.

..

Finally von Guyen realised that these attacks did little other than to deplete the ranks of his followers and called them off, but by then two in every three of the cultists were already dead. The KZ-PDF and Night Lord fared better, but they wre stretched very thin.

What skill they eventually acquired came at the price of blood (not that this is seen s a drawback by Chaos gods, since either way they get what they want from their worshippers.), so early on we still got the moronic "human wave" attacks we know so well from many Cultists.

Also note that whatever daemonic forces showed up were killable by the Guard and PDF.

Page 77

The arrival of frehs Cadian troops, just three weeks after the rebellion began, sealed the fate of the rebels and meant it was only a matter of time befor the rebellion was crushed.

3 week deployment time from the sending of the distress call, their assembly, to arrival. Distance isnt known, but it was supposedly pretty far from the Eye, and the fact only Cadian regiments replied may imply that they launched from Cadia. If it was 200 light years average FTL speed of 3500C.

Not especially fast, or espeically slow by Guard standards, really.

Page 78

The only way to advance was to blast an entrancee in a wall with a grenade or plasma charge, and then charge thorugh the breach.

Grenade, probably krak and plasma grenades can blow a man-sized hole in the wall. I don't think modern grenades could do that. The best approximation I can think of is the Matador wall breaching system which is roughly equivlaent in calibre to the LAW-80.. we can assume a warhead at least a kilo or two (Shaped charge no less).

Probably quite impressive given this is to be ink a grenade not much larger than a frag grenade.


Page 78

The terrain in Vogen aided the defenders and denied the attackers advantages in terms of mobility and heavy support.
..

The rebels quickly learned that their best tactic was to stay as close to the attackers as possible, making it impossible for Imperial artillery or air support ot be used without risk of hitting friendly troops. THe fighting becmae a blodoy close-quraters fight, with qurater neither asked nor given.

A bit on Imperial tactics and the tactics of the enemy. At least a token recognition of mobility in warfare by the enemy (so the Guard should recognize it as well)

Also, an emphasis of the fact that long range fighting isnt always an option, at least not for the Guard when fighting Chaos. Given the utter disregard Chaos has for its own troops, and the beneift of denying artillery and air support it makes perfect sense to get close in. And in turn the Guard needs to be prepared for close quarters fighting.

[Connor MacLeod]

Moving back to 4th edition.. cities of Death urban warfare supplement. basically the 4th edition of Cityfight.

I'm thinking that after I've covered this novel I'll stop 3rd/4th and starta new thread. Thoughts?

Page 6

Upon every planet settled by Mankind are built vast sprawling cities, each one a metropolis teaming with Imperial citizens.

This implies that even Feral and Feudal worlds. ore even dead ones, might ave a city of some kind, albeit likely a small, sealed off one separate from the rest of the planet.

Page 6

Every day the unceasing war that engulfs the galaxy swallows another hive of human life, for the value of a city within a campaign cannot be overestimated.

Implies that either one human planet or one city is lost daily.

Page 6

A wise general will go to great lengths to secure the industrial might and physical protection that a city can offer.

Imperial Guard tactical doctrine dictates that cities must be secured primarily for the manpower and industry that they provide

Benefits of a city in combat. At least from an Imperial perspective, one assumes. Given the sorts of enemies the Guard faces, small wonder they prefer secure fortifications.

Page 6

At the siege of Petrostok, GeneralBulkhain managed to repulse the attackers, tahnks to the great tank manufactorum there. Freshly recruited conscripts had the rudiments of warfare and tactics explained ot them as the very Leman Russ tanks they were to pilot rumbled off the production lines. These untried soldiers then drove the newly constructed tanks just two city blocks away from the front line, and straight into battle.

Implies that the construciton of Leman russ tanks (at least the "basic" type, whatever that may mean) takes as long as basic tank training occurs - a matter of weeks perhaps? scope isnt implied, beyond multiple tanks.. dozens or perhaps hundreds of tanks (a regiment or more?) from a single manufactorum.

Page 6

The armies of the Ruinous Powers vie to control cities for quite different reasons. With such a vast population cities are perfect places for the agents of Chaos to spread their seditions and tempt away the weak willed and unwary to their foul cause. Of course, if the population is resistant to their foul cause. Of course, if the population is resistant to their lures the worshippers of the dark gods can still find a use for them, as the daemonic summonation at Gathamol proved.

Purposes for Chaos to fight city battles.

Page 6

Other armies do battle in cities for their own myraid reasons. Whether they seek to harvest the genetic stock of the populace, secure a strategically vital location, or to plunder the souls of their victims. Even the casualty conscious Tau find themselves reluctantly drawn into city battles in protracted campaigns

The "other" category. Tyrnaids probably do it for genetic stock, the Eldar for "strategic" locales, and the Necrons or Dark Eldar for souls. The Tau merely do it reluctantly.

Note the "casualty conscious" bit as well - its clear Tau MUST learn to fight cityfights but they don't like it and probably avoid it if at all possible. This is of course a reflection of their tacitcal doctrine - the Tau fight alot like Eldar - they favor speed and quick, overwhelming attacks if at all possible, particularily from ambush or in a prepared location of their choosing. They, like the Eldar, are not suited for long-drawn out campaigns (although I suspect that, being more numerous than the Eldar, they are better able to handle losses if forced into it.) This likely means that protracted campaigns favor other races over the Tau the same way they would over Eldar (Orks, Imperium, etc.)

Page 6

Every citizen lives a life of perpetual service, slaving away at back-breaking and mind-numbing tasks for twenty hours a day, before drgging their exhausted, labour-wraked bodies beneath their benches to snatch a few hours of fitful sleep. The spires of the wealthy reach high above the clouds of filth and are filled with such opulance as can scarcely be comprehended by those far below.

This sounds more like a Hive or a forge world than others (eg agri or feudal worlds) but the following quotes hint otherwise, but even then that hardly applies across the board - the Hives in Crossfire (Shira calpurnia showing Hydraphur), Necropolis (Vervunhive), and Survival Instinct (Necromunda) all show living conditions rather variable. I believe the Eisenhorn and Ravenor novels do too, as did "Lords of the Night" (another Hive.) Its not something I would call rare, but I would hesitate to treat it as "the rule" either. Really, its just another dose of grimdark - we know that the term "typical" inthe Imperium can only be loosely applied in many cases.

Page 6

For every city in the Imperium that might be called typical, theree are others that defy the senses and beggar belief. Some of these cities stretch miles into the sky, towering buttresses of battered stone and rusting metal, vast hives of human life and inhuman suffering. Others sink hundreds of metres below the world's surface, the populace dwelling in vast caverns of rock and ice, while others still float on vast lakes of water, acid or lava. There are cities devoted entirely to the worship of the God Emperor, where the Cult Imperialis reigns supreme and the rooftops echo constantly to the sound of a million voices raised ot hymsn and prayer.

Hive worlds are described here, as are the underground hives (like valhalla, Tallarn, and Krieg, where the surface is largely uninhabitable.), and the Cardinal/Shrine worlds.

Page 6

There are cities given to the adminsitration of Humanity's innumerable population and infinite resources, every inhabitant enslaved to routine and process, every last round of ammunition and every grain of wheat accounted for by stone-faced scribes. There, the true worth of human life is established by workers jaded by the never-ending monotony of their assigned chore.

More pointless grimdark. It does seem that there are "Adminsitratum" worlds as well as others.. perhaps the armory worlds we've heard of that stockpile munitions and supplies (eg Vraks).

Page 6-7

The most common offensive in any city battle is a massed attack pitching hundreds, if not thousands, of warriors towards the enemy in a desperate effort to gain ground. Such attacks, whether successful or not, are always costly in lives, and only a commander that has vast reserves of soldiers - or is patently insane - would attempt such a gambit. The value of such mass attacks is a matter of opinion, however; logisticians judge such things in terms of grround gained and so the tactic remains favoured by many an unimaginative Imperial Guard officer.

The luxury of countless warrios is not always available to a commander though, and sometimes a few loyal or well-trained soldiers must be counted on to turn the tide of a city battle. Few in number, such warrios cannot hpe to hold ground for long periods against large numbers of enemy, and must therefore engage in daring hit and run tactics, pinpoint strikes under cover of darkness, and even daring raids launched from labryinthine sewer networks.

A bit more on Guard tactics and the use of "mass attacks" in them. Whilte admitting such tactics do exist (and they do), they are attributed more to "logistiicans" and "unimaginative" Guard officers. Such tactics are also said to be insane unless you have vast reserves. It goes on to say that "countless warriors" (despite the propoganda about the Imperial Guard's vast size) is a luxury, so its rather hard to argue that "mass attacks" are the rule (lines of supply can't guarantee a steady replacement of troops.) and that the usage of such tactics would have to be deemed a "tactical neccessity" in such cases. Coupled to the fact that Siege warfare regiments like the Krieg are highly specialized and conditioned to such warfare, and we can conclude that the fact Guardsman are expected to be capable of mass attacks does not automatically mean that is how they are always used. Guardsmen are flexible by nature and expected to be capable of handling many kinds of problems.

Indeed, the above quote indicates that very fact with "city warfare" type guardsmen. It also suggests such troops are much more flexible and resourceful than your typical "unthinking" Guardsmen, more akin ot jungle fighters (like the Catachans and Armageddon Ork hunters) and light infantry (like the Tanith) than others.

[Connor MacLeod]

Next update for Cities of Death (still 4th edition, in case you forgot )

Page 7

In a cityfight even the most fast-moving armies can be forced to abandon their usual tactics as they become bogged down in the blood soaked agony of building-to-building warfare.

Again, the implication that nto everyone in 40K (Aside from the tau and Eldar, presumably) engages in human wave/WW1 style tactics. At least that's how I read it.

Page 7

Engineers brace the walls and ceilings with steel girders and lightweight support struts, enabling the occupants to weather all but the most destructive bombardments.

Use/role of Engineers in cityfighting (and presuambly defensive roles.) One infers from this that all racs have engineers of some kind (although what the Ork and Tyranid equivalents are, boggle the mind)

Page 7

Buildings become corpse-strewn shells as defenders are pounded by battle cannons and mortars. During this period of intense fire, only those buildings buttressed with additional fortifications offer any true protection and warriors cower from the fury of the enemy ordnance.

Implication that cannon and mortart might be of similar destructive magnitude, although whether this is by impact or explosive or some other mechanism isn't made clear (a 120mm battle cannon and 120mm mortar could have a similar-sized shell, after all.)

Page 7

..every race has ways of denying a building to the enemy, from the crudely effective stikkbomb tripwires favoured by Ork Kommando teams to the splinter-bomb packed corpses utilised by Dark Eldar Kabals.

Examples of "traps" employed by arious races. The Dark Eldar one does not surprise me. I imagine Eldar might use a shuriken-based equivalent instead.

Page 7

With grenades and flamers they force their way inside [buildings], blasting apart the occupants, reducing them to screaming casualties and charred corpses.

Each staircase or hallway becomes a battleground fought over by dozens of men, until the floor is carpeted with bodies of the fallen and the walls are blasted ruins.

One presumes that the grenades "blast apart" the occupants (which for a human grenade requires point blank proximity - see bolter analysis thread) while flamers reduce them to "charred corpses" Lasguns might do either depending on type and setting, but aren't explicitly specified. Charring a body like that with a flamethrower would be megajoule range somewhee (depends on the extent of charring - ie how deep.)

Its also implied that such weapons are destructive enough to demolish parts of the buildings as well - at least the walls (again its not specified whether or not this includes lasers.)

Page 34

[command centre stratagem]
This might be a communications node attached to the upper storeys of a building, or a cogitator bank that aids the control of nearby friendly forces.

The cogitator bit is interesting, as it confirms what we see in some novels like the Ghosts. That troopers like the Guard can use computers in their military duties.

Page 34

[Fuel Dump Stratagem]
Many cities are host to extensive fuel production, distribution, and stroage networks. These may be used by troops equipped with flame weapons, who connect these straight to the pipelines and unleash a torrent of high pressure, searing chemical death upon their foes.

Unlimited flamethrowing! a possible asset of "static" defense (the other being it makes an otherwise flimsy guardsmen harder to kill by a vastly tougher Ork, Tyranid, or even your average Chaos minion) All weapons have a variant strategy of this.

Of course the fuel dump idea also applies to vehicles and stuff. Just being well stockpiled, which is definitely part of the IG doctrine (or at lest the Munitorum['s mentality)

Page 35

The building contains medical supplies, auto-med systems, stim dispensers, healing balms or other stores useful for patching up wounded warriors sufficiently for them to get back into action.

the kinds of medical facilities we can expect on a 40K world/battlefield. Again, this is presumed to include the Guard, and automated medical gear has shown up there (usually hospitaller stuff from the Sororitas)

Page 35

Many races provide their forces with prefabricated power sources, or they patch into existing conduits found amidst the ruins. THese are used to drive autoloaders and power feeds to their maximum capacity, or to overcharge laser-based weaponry, allowing all types of weapons to sustain a prodigious rate of fire

The implication here is twofold: That many energy and non-energy basted weaponry run off power (or may be designed to) in some fashion - presumably even including bolt and auto weapons, as well as melta and plasma guns, and that lasguns can "overcharge" if they have sufficient power available. I take this to mena they can be used at maximum power without fear of running out of shots.

The implication also is that many weapons come with a sort of power cable to allow such weapons, evne lasguns, to be "plugged in" at a convenient place. This may mean many weapons can even be recharged on the fly (including lasguns, since at least some modesl come with a built in battery in addition to powerpacks.) It also suggests that such weapons can be plugged into any source (EG a backpack power source) - creating the analgous effect to a "belt fed" energy weapon. We know of hotshot and hellgun back packs, and plasma and meltaguns can have them too.

The deployment or use of convenient power sources, especially in a static position, does make sense for the Guard, since it can eliminate the need to have to "abandon" a position to recharge or resupply if oyu run out of ammo, and if you are forced to abandon your position, you still have your power packs on hand. Plus you can use your weapon to maximum effect with little problem.

Page 35

Warriors might tap into security observation networks or servitors built into wall points, designed to provide a means of monitoring the populace. Other races make use of cunningly hidden scourts to pass information to friendly units regarding the position of their enemies.

Sensor/observational gear seems to be part and parcel of many Imperial cities, probably through the PDF/arbites/Enforcer forces, but they can be employed by others (including the Guard) in wartime. It also demonstrates a familiarity with such practices (IE the need/ability to use sensors or observation.)