Michael Bay: Today is "Day One" For Transformers 3

[Vympel]

Beat me! I didn't see it at Imax though, was it supposed to have been cut from normal screen release?

That's what I heard. A friend who saw the regular release said he didn't see it (and it's impossible to miss).

[Steel]

Beat me! I didn't see it at Imax though, was it supposed to have been cut from normal screen release?

That's what I heard. A friend who saw the regular release said he didn't see it (and it's impossible to miss).

I saw it at a non imax screen and I certainly saw the spine ripping out bit. It was in the UK this summer, so I don't know if there was a different one that came out later here or something.

[tim31]

Well Vympel and I share a country so there's no straight explanation for this...

[GuppyShark]

Normal Australian release, saw the spinal cord scene.

[Darth Yan]

I saw the spinal cord scene in the uk version, just wasn't in slow mo.

[FOG3]

Yes, but why US? Why the implication that we, here, now, are the ones who can break the stalemate? I remind you of our notable inability to invent smart materials that can change from cars into giant robots and fly into space whenever the hell we feel like it. The Transformers not only have that kind of technology, they embody it. Why should major-league Decepticons find a barrage of JDAMs or a high-megajoule range railgun slug more than moderately inconvenient?

I mean yes, it can contribute to the awesomeness, but only at the expense of plot.

The only reason they were so tough before was shields. Without shields and other reality bending niceties they are just big targets, with thin armor. By the end of movie 1, they figured out which warhead to use to efficiently punch through the shields. Nevermind "we" actually did invent the "smart materials" that can "change from cars into giant robots" given that's exactly what they did after a little application of the right energy to wake them up.

What is your problem with a 150mm naval gun firing a 20kg round at Mach 7.5, that can hit at target 200NM away at Mach 5? A tank sabot is significantly lighter, is doing around Mach 5 at the muzzle, and can go through thicker modern armor then any of the Tranformers had. Ignoring "we're magic to the core and thus can ignore reality" they shouldn't even be shrugging off normal tank rounds.

Why should bombs that can go up to 5,000lb have a problem, given they now know the proper warhead the defeat their shields?

F-22s taking major pieces out of Blackout and Megatron was a little more marginal, especially when in the same scene they couldn't scratch Starscream's paint.

So your problem is ignorance of the difference between applications where blast munitions are used and more penetrative warheads can be used? Because you basically just compared a heavy rifle to plinking pistol and claimed you should get the same effect.

[RedImperator]

Bay is a superb visual director,

Wait a minute. Since when? The selling point of a Michael Bay movie is supposed to be all the big fights and explosions and whatnot, but the fights and explosions are usually just an incoherent mishmash of two second cuts.

Every Michael Bay movie has the exact same problems: the plots are nonsensical, the characters are cardboard cutouts, the jokes are lame, everything which isn't an action scene drags, and the action scenes are so incoherent you might as well just flash a "KA-BLAM" card on the screen and cut to the aftermath. I walked out on the first Transformers, and by all accounts, the second one was even worse.

[Darth Yan]

the fights were a lot easier to follow in ROTF, but yes, everything else did drag, especially at the college.

[Anguirus]

The F-22s didn't really take major pieces out of either Blackout or Megatron anyway. They did damage, but all it did was briefly stun then, it's not like they blew pieces off. As for the "mook" protofrom Decepticons in TF2, we did see an M1A2 blow one's head off, IIRC. Which is right and proper.

Well, either the F-22's killed Blackout, or one guy with a grenade launcher did. But yeah, as for Megatron, OP did the major damage to his leg.

So your problem is ignorance of the difference between applications where blast munitions are used and more penetrative warheads can be used? Because you basically just compared a heavy rifle to plinking pistol and claimed you should get the same effect.

I'm not arguing that Sidewinders and Mavericks/whatever ground attack munitions are the same, but they are within a few orders of magnitude or so, yes? Also, Starscream certainly would appear to have thinner armor than larger, slower Decepticons, so...my point is really that perhaps his paint ought to have been a little scratched.

We can argue technical points all day, and I'm happy to concede them, but what I'm really getting at is what is the most satisfying story-wise. RotF failed to make a sufficient threat out of the Decepticons. A relatively small detachment of US forces was depicted as being able to obliterate a major Decepticon force in less than an hour of fighting. Makes you wonder how the heck they did so well in the "take over the world" montage.

Wait a minute. Since when? The selling point of a Michael Bay movie is supposed to be all the big fights and explosions and whatnot, but the fights and explosions are usually just an incoherent mishmash of two second cuts.

Some people have a real problem with this, some don't. Bay's signature style is rapid montage, for better or for worse. He is also excellent at shooting cars and robots so they look interesting, which frankly isn't a skill everyone has. It's reasonably tough to make a Peterbilt seem heroic.

Every Michael Bay movie has the exact same problems: the plots are nonsensical

Agreed; not a visual issue.

the characters are cardboard cutouts, the jokes are lame

See above.

everything which isn't an action scene drags

This hasn't bothered me but it does seem to bother quite a few. More so with TF2 than TF1 according to my friends.

and the action scenes are so incoherent you might as well just flash a "KA-BLAM" card on the screen and cut to the aftermath.

I don't agree. They are (intentionally) overwhelming in the theater, and then on DVD they are shown to be rather well-choreographed and interesting IMO.

I had major narrative dislikes with TF2, but I never once had a problem telling what was going on in the action scenes. Even if you hate TF2 with a fiery passion (and it sounds like you would) I'd still recommend watching the forest fight scene as one of the grand robot rumbles of cinema history (much better than the climax, which was part of the problem).

[VF5SS]

Even if you hate TF2 with a fiery passion (and it sounds like you would) I'd still recommend watching the forest fight scene as one of the grand robot rumbles of cinema history (much better than the climax, which was part of the problem).

It's actually pretty bland. I've compared it to just watching someone play God of War or any other quick-time even brawler. Sure there was a lot technical work put into the fight (because each robot has a billion pieces to animate), but all they did was run around like a bunch of extreme LARPers. They don't even do a lot of transforming so the fight is even less novel that the Hot Rod vs. Galvatron fight from the old movie.

I guess what I'm saying if you're going to spend billions animating giant robots, maybe they should do something robot-y.

[Anguirus]

^ Well, I disagree, obviously. They transformed when it made sense (OP trying to get away with Sam, Megatron driving after them, flying TFs transform when they are on the ground). They also can't transform when they are horribly maimed, which started happening pretty quickly. Yeah, all they did was run around, kick faceplates off, climb onto each other, slice arms off and beat each other with them, argue about how to save Cybertron...I don't know what you are looking for in a fight, but I got what I was looking for. It was also a lot more interesting than "Hot Rod drives away, shoots, drives back so that Galvatron can put him in a choke-hold, then the plot device wins."

Moreover, the fight also had narrative and emotional significance. You might as well complain that the Death Star Trench Run isn't as cool-looking as the game Rogue Squadron.

[VF5SS]

Moreover, the fight also had narrative and emotional significance.

Hey you said it yourself, narrative and emotion play second to the action in a Michael bay film. I supposed it is a matter of opinion, but even the last film was more inventive when it came to the choreography. You had Starscream flying around bashing jets and tearing up cars, Jazz transforming and maneuvering around Brawl, and Megatron smashing through buildings. The second film blew its load early with the first fight being in a city, the second being in a dull forest, and the third some throwaway Indiana Jones set. Again its like a billion dollars in effects for the best fight scenes and all we get is a robot-Kratos. Meh.

[Anguirus]

^ Hey, I already said that the film blew it's load to early. We just disagree on the particular "moment of climax."

The first battle had the best choreography but seemed "too easy." The second battle I thought was great all around. The third battle had too much stock footage and was overall kinda boring, with the only real standout sequence being Bumblebee vs. Rampage and the too-short sequence where OP whomps Megs and the Fallen.

[Darth Wong]

I forgot to mention that the entire subplot with the human-lookalike fembot Decepticon in Sam's college dorm should have been excised from the movie. There was never any hint that they could make runway model Terminators before, and the whole plot tangent was resolved far too easily.

It's as if that entire part of the story was written solely so Michael Bay would have an excuse to make a scene with a cool visual effect for a transforming runway model fembot. But that couldn't be the case, right?

[Vympel]

I forgot to mention that the entire subplot with the human-lookalike fembot Decepticon in Sam's college dorm should have been excised from the movie. There was never any hint that they could make runway model Terminators before, and the whole plot tangent was resolved far too easily.

I didn't get what she was trying to achieve anyway.

It's as if that entire part of the story was written solely so Michael Bay would have an excuse to make a scene with a cool visual effect for a transforming runway model fembot. But that couldn't be the case, right?

Of course not! Isabel Lucas is an actress, not a runway model (she's a soapie star over here, or she was, until TF2 made her big and now she's on track to be in other stuff. I still think Megan Fox is hotter)

Hey you said it yourself, narrative and emotion play second to the action in a Michael bay film. I supposed it is a matter of opinion, but even the last film was more inventive when it came to the choreography. You had Starscream flying around bashing jets and tearing up cars, Jazz transforming and maneuvering around Brawl, and Megatron smashing through buildings. The second film blew its load early with the first fight being in a city, the second being in a dull forest, and the third some throwaway Indiana Jones set. Again its like a billion dollars in effects for the best fight scenes and all we get is a robot-Kratos. Meh.

Yeah, it is opinion - IMO Jazz didn't do anything too spectacular against Brawl, he merely transformed to get close to him and then there was a nod to the animated movie where Kup did the same against one of the Combaticons (IIRC). I much prefer the way robots ripped the shit out of each other in TF2, it was technically and visually far more superior and interesting to the pew-pew punch punch pew pew of most of the original (with the exception of Optimus vs Bonecrusher, which was fantastic).

[Ford Prefect]

It's as if that entire part of the story was written solely so Michael Bay would have an excuse to make a scene with a cool visual effect for a transforming runway model fembot. But that couldn't be the case, right?

Of coruse that wasn't the reason. The entire subplot was almost certainly cooked up by Bay so he could get a gratuitous panty shot out of Isabel Lucas.

I didn't get what she was trying to achieve anyway.

Location of the Matrix, I guess. The Decepticons were goddamn omniscient in Revenge of the Fallen.

[Shroom Man 777]

I'll agree that Revenge of the Fallen was one, big fat glorious mess. Some glorious, mostly mess.

[Vympel]

Even though TF2 did insanely well at the box office, I think the criticism of Skids and Mudflap - and the need to put in something new - will likely minimize their role in TF3. Still, I hope in TF3 they keep the new characters to a minimum and instead flesh out the screen time of the existing Autobots and Decepticons beyond the 'leaders' - Megatron, Optimus Prime, Starscream, Bumblebee - i.e. more screentime for Ironhide, Ratchet, Sideswipe, Jolt (come on, we saw him for literally two split seconds in two scenes!!!) Soundwave, and the Constructicons (hopefully giving Devastator another go - you don't create a model of such complexity only to waste him for only one film - they reused Blackout, they can reuse Devastator).

Of course, TF3 is going to have a lot of competition in 2011 - POTC 4, Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows (Pt 2), Spiderman 4, Cars 2, The Hangover 2 (awesome!), and Kung Fu Panda 2. Given that TF is a box office juggernaut, it's likely the other movies will steer well clear.

[Anguirus]

(hopefully giving Devastator another go - you don't create a model of such complexity only to waste him for only one film - they reused Blackout, they can reuse Devastator).

Wouldn't surprise me if he was used again. They didn't have him get totally obliterated on screen, he took damage that we've seen other robots survive.

[FOG3]

So your problem is ignorance of the difference between applications where blast munitions are used and more penetrative warheads can be used? Because you basically just compared a heavy rifle to plinking pistol and claimed you should get the same effect.

I'm not arguing that Sidewinders and Mavericks/whatever ground attack munitions are the same, but they are within a few orders of magnitude or so, yes? Also, Starscream certainly would appear to have thinner armor than larger, slower Decepticons, so...my point is really that perhaps his paint ought to have been a little scratched.

You have some really serious issues with your appreciation of weapons technology, guy. A few orders of magnitude is a, meh?

Yes, technically a AR-15 and a M1A2's cannon are within a few orders of magnitude. Yes, I'm sure somehow you could force through the argument a missile that will blow clean through the thickest/best armor ever mounted on something that can move with a 300lb shaped charge warhead, is only within a few orders of magnitude of a 20lb Annular blast fragmentation warhead designed basically to gut a fuel tank with only a nod at armor around it. You'd just look like a blithering idiot in the process.

We're not talking Fing magic generators, with Fing blow continents apart weapons that 9 times out of 10 writers don't even follow up with anyways here where there are a meaningful number of orders of magnitude involved.

We can argue technical points all day, and I'm happy to concede them, but what I'm really getting at is what is the most satisfying story-wise. RotF failed to make a sufficient threat out of the Decepticons. A relatively small detachment of US forces was depicted as being able to obliterate a major Decepticon force in less than an hour of fighting. Makes you wonder how the heck they did so well in the "take over the world" montage.

I will acknowledge I actually have yet to get around to seeing the movie. Who were they fighting with their "take over the world montage" as you put it? It's not like anyone else has Zumwalts to begin with, and given the US is supposed to have kept a tight lid on things and the munitions that could defeat the shields were supposed to be new there's a whole sea of rationalization there to be tapped.

[Anguirus]

^ They weren't fighting anyone in their "take over" montage, unfortunately, that's the whole point. They just announce their presence on every telecom system in existence courtesy of Soundwave, show up in robot form, and start kicking over flags and kidnapping parents in at the very least both coasts of the US and France. And instead of once trying to fight them, world governments all seem more interested in handing Sam over than trying to fight the alien menace.

Then we find out that an M1 tank will take out a typical Decepticon 1-v-1, and there are only a few dozen Decepticons. The only real advantage the 'cons have, like in the first movie, is that they can effortlessly kill all enemy communications while retaining their own. They pretty much run around through the ruins like they are playing laser tag with the Autobots, and when they get through they are stopped cold by the line 'o tanks and then they are all wiped out by a B1. I can see why that's fun for military buffs, but it's narratively weak because you start wondering what the big screaming deal was about the Decepticons. Even Megatron runs away from those tanks.

I don't mind the 'cons losing to US forces, I just want it to be fun when they do, and consistent with the earlier threat they seemed to present. As for my appalling ignorance of munitions technology, well, I guess you caught me, but do note that the "few orders of magnitude" comment *was* meant to be flippant.

[SAMAS]

I forgot to mention that the entire subplot with the human-lookalike fembot Decepticon in Sam's college dorm should have been excised from the movie. There was never any hint that they could make runway model Terminators before, and the whole plot tangent was resolved far too easily.

It's as if that entire part of the story was written solely so Michael Bay would have an excuse to make a scene with a cool visual effect for a transforming runway model fembot. But that couldn't be the case, right?

While it could have been handled better, the technology has precedent in the G1 Pretenders and Beast Wars.

[VF5SS]

While it could have been handled better, the technology has precedent in the G1 Pretenders and Beast Wars.

I thought Bay wasn't tied down by some stupid kids cartoon. And what about the ball bearing robot? "He's made of liquid metal. Can make knives, stabbing weapons..."

Seeing you guys argue the stupid plot of the stupid plotless action movie has got me thinking. Bay and Hollywood are in some kind of state when they're making stuff not unlike the old 80's OVAs from Japan. Lots of meticulously detailed action flicks with paper thin plots where stuff happening is only dictated by the whims of some self indulgent director. Thank you Michael Bay, you've created the modern American equivalent to M.D. Geist and M.D. Geist 2: Death Force.

[Ford Prefect]

Thank you Michael Bay, you've created the modern American equivalent to M.D. Geist and M.D. Geist 2: Death Force.

Don't be absurd: nothing is that bad.

[Gandalf]

Bay is a superb visual director,

Wait a minute. Since when? The selling point of a Michael Bay movie is supposed to be all the big fights and explosions and whatnot, but the fights and explosions are usually just an incoherent mishmash of two second cuts.

Every Michael Bay movie has the exact same problems: the plots are nonsensical, the characters are cardboard cutouts, the jokes are lame, everything which isn't an action scene drags, and the action scenes are so incoherent you might as well just flash a "KA-BLAM" card on the screen and cut to the aftermath. I walked out on the first Transformers, and by all accounts, the second one was even worse.

I have the "honour" of having seen all of his directorial catalogue. I'd say his best film is Armageddon, which succeeds because of a likeable cast. The plot may be silly, but I can sit and watch Michael Clarke Duncan play "Big Black Guy", Steve Buscemi play "Sleazy Guy" and Bruce Willis play "Guy who DOES THE JOB".

The cast make it a fun experience. I can't get behind Shia LeBeouf and ARMY GUYS, with their uninteresting CG cast mates. That may be the biggest failing of the Transformers films; that the cast and characters just plain suck.