DataPacRat: Descended from kings and gods

[DataPacRat]

... but would any human-created tests to find Nephilim have a chance of detecting humans whose genes have come from /other/ sources, such as the mysterious Rhea and Titans/Devils/whatnot?

(I ask because, according to the genealogical records, I can trace a direct lineage back through a certain number of generations to Rhea herself; if those records can be trusted, she is no farther than being my 121st-great grandmother. Admittedly, that's a pretty big 'if', but in a setting like TSW, who knows?)

...Huh?

According to certain genealogical records, my mothers' mothers' fathers's etc etc etc father is Zeus himself; he is my 120th-great grandfather. Zeus's mother is Rhea, so, by the records, she is my 121st-great grandmother. (I can dig up the whole line of descent if you really want...) Of course, that's just according to the records; in real life, I have strong doubts that either Zeus or Rhea ever existed, while in the Salvation War universe, it's possible that my doppleganger is /much/ more closely related to Rhea.

I'm commenting that those humans who have demons in their family tree have certain unusual properties; I'm asking if anyone who has, instead, Devils or Titans in their tree might have similar, or entirely different, unusual traits.

[Ryan Thunder]

You're either lying, or those are some hilariously fucked up records. Care to post something that'd prove it?

[DataPacRat]

You're either lying, or those are some hilariously fucked up records. Care to post something that'd prove it?

It'll take me a few minutes to arrange things in a presentable manner; but, in the meantime, in short, on my mother's side of the family are some French counts, one of whom descends from Charlemagne, who is said to descend from certain individuals from the Trojan War, who is said to be a descendant of Zeus.

[Simon_Jester]

According to certain genealogical records, my mothers' mothers' fathers's etc etc etc father is Zeus himself; he is my 120th-great grandfather. Zeus's mother is Rhea, so, by the records, she is my 121st-great grandmother. (I can dig up the whole line of descent if you really want...) Of course, that's just according to the records; in real life, I have strong doubts that either Zeus or Rhea ever existed, while in the Salvation War universe, it's possible that my doppleganger is /much/ more closely related to Rhea.

I reiterate, huh? Or, to be more precise, what weird set of ancestors do you have such that your 119th-great-grandwhatever was someone who claimed to be descended from Zeus? Who was he? (or she?)

...Ah. I see. Keep in mind that while the genealogy might be accurate back to Charlemagne*, no way in hell is it accurate past that. Charlemagne was part of the Frankish line of palace majordomos that deposed the Merovingian kings... and there is NO reason to suppose that those guys are even remotely related to the ancient Greeks.
_______

*Actually, I kind of doubt that. The incidence rate of marital infidelity is high enough that making any confident statement about one's own ancestry that far back is accepting a losing bet.**

**More precisely, I don't doubt that you're descended from Charlemagne, but statistically speaking almost everyone in Europe probably is. Sort of like 1 in 12 people carries what appears to be Ghengis Khan's Y chromosome... and obviously, for every male-line descendant there must be several people whose mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, etc. were descended from him. So it's a fair bet that everyone in China is at least slightly descended from Ghengis Khan, even if they can't trace the connection because they're actually descended from the bastard offspring of an affair that one of his great-to-the-third-grandsons had.

Same goes for Charlemagne in Europe.
________

Of course, your claim to be descended from Zeus is as credible as anyone else's, but that says more about the credibility of the existence of Zeus than it does about your ancestors.

[DataPacRat]

According to certain genealogical records, my mothers' mothers' fathers's etc etc etc father is Zeus himself; he is my 120th-great grandfather. Zeus's mother is Rhea, so, by the records, she is my 121st-great grandmother. (I can dig up the whole line of descent if you really want...) Of course, that's just according to the records; in real life, I have strong doubts that either Zeus or Rhea ever existed, while in the Salvation War universe, it's possible that my doppleganger is /much/ more closely related to Rhea.

I reiterate, huh? Or, to be more precise, what weird set of ancestors do you have such that your 119th-great-grandwhatever was someone who claimed to be descended from Zeus? Who was he? (or she?)

...Ah. I see. Keep in mind that while the genealogy might be accurate back to Charlemagne*, no way in hell is it accurate past that. Charlemagne was part of the Frankish line of palace majordomos that deposed the Merovingian kings... and there is NO reason to suppose that those guys are even remotely related to the ancient Greeks.
_______

*Actually, I kind of doubt that. The incidence rate of marital infidelity is high enough that making any confident statement about one's own ancestry that far back is accepting a losing bet.**

**More precisely, I don't doubt that you're descended from Charlemagne, but statistically speaking almost everyone in Europe probably is. Sort of like 1 in 12 people carries what appears to be Ghengis Khan's Y chromosome... and obviously, for every male-line descendant there must be several people whose mother, grandmother, great-grandmother, etc. were descended from him. So it's a fair bet that everyone in China is at least slightly descended from Ghengis Khan, even if they can't trace the connection because they're actually descended from the bastard offspring of an affair that one of his great-to-the-third-grandsons had.

Same goes for Charlemagne in Europe.
________

Of course, your claim to be descended from Zeus is as credible as anyone else's, but that says more about the credibility of the existence of Zeus than it does about your ancestors.

Oh, I'm in full agreement with all of your points; still, I'm the only person I know of who's done the actual work to look up the records and /trace/ the listed genealogical connections... and thus, it makes for a dandy conversation-derailer whenever anyone starts talking about how great /their/ ancestors are ("You're related to a President. Oh, how cute... I'm the offspring of counts, an Emperor, and a /god/! Muahahaha!"), or about Greek mythology in general. And since certain aspects of Greek myth have been mentioned in this setting...


In case you're curious, here's the ancestry line, according to the records, however accurate or inaccurate those records might be. Note that before around 150 AD, all the dates are estimated at around 25 years per generation. Zeus's birthdate is pushed back a bit, because he's also the ancestor of various other people who are supposed to be contemporary with the Trojan War era.

(And if this is considered inappropriately spamming this forum, I freely accept whatever lumps are due to me.)

Daniel Eliot Boese, b1976 (me)
son of (mother, redacted for privacy)
daughter of (maternal grandfather, redacted for privacy)
son of Elsie Clare MacKenzie, b1890
daughter of Sarah Jane Horne, b1842
daughter of Philip G. Horne, b1807
son of Andrew Philip Horne, b1770
son of Francoise Anastasie Savary, b1728
daughter of Marie Marthe Anne Doucet, b1694
daughter of Bernard Doucet, b1667
son of Marie Margaret Landry, b1646
daughter of Rene dit l'aine Landry, b1634
son of Jean Claude Landry, b1593
son of Claude Landry, b1568
son of Diane Rohan-Gie, b1541
daughter of Francoise Rohan-Gie, b1504
son of Charle de Rohan Gie, b1475
son of Count Pierre I of Rohan-Guemenee b1433
son of Count Louis I of Rohan-Guemenee b1410
son of Count Charles of Rohan-Guemenee b1367
son of Viscount Jean I de Rohan b1324
son of Viscount Alain VII de Rohan d1352
son of Viscount Olivier II de Rohan d1326
son of Viscount Alain VI de Rohan d1304
son of Viscount Alain V de Rohan d1242
son of Viscount Alain IV de Rohan d1205
son of Viscount Alain III de Rohan d1195
son of Viscount Alain II de Rohan at de Castelnoec d1168
son of Viscount Alain I "le Noir" de Rohan b1085
son of Viscount Eudon I de Porhoet et de Rennes
son of Viscount Josselin I de Porhoet d1074
son of Viscount Guethenoc de Chateautro-en-Porhoet b1008
son of Ermangarde de Anjou b980
daughter of Geoffroy I Count Anjou b958
son of Gerberge de Maine b913
son of Thibault Theobald m898
son of Lotharius II b835
son of Lothair I b795
son of Louis b778
son of Charlemagne b742
Pepin b714
Charles Martel b676
Pepin II D'heristal b635
Ansigise Austrasia b602
(Arnoldus) St. Arnoul b582
(Arnoul) Arnoldus b552
Ausbert Moselle b527
Prince Adlebert Wambert of S. Franks
Adelbert d491
"Long Haired" Clodius b380
King Pharamond of Westphalia b352
Marcomir b347
Clodius b324
Dagobert b300
Genebald I b262
Dagobert b230?
Walter b215?
clodius b200?
Bartherus b180?
Hilderic b160?
Sunno b137
Farabert b122
Clodomir b104?
Marcomir IV b80?
Odomar IV b60?
Richemer b30?
Ratherius b10?
Antenor b10 BC? (following estimated dates all BC)
Clodomir b-30?
Marcomir b-60?
Clodius b-80?
Francus b-100?
Antharius b-125?
Cassander b-160?
Merodochus b-175?
Clodomir b-200?
Antenor b-225?
Clodius b-250?
Marcomir b-275?
Nicanor b-300?
Clodomir b-320?
Bassanus Mangus "Priest" Ilium b-340?
Diocles Ilium b-360?
Helenus b-380?
Priam b-400?
Son b-420?
King Marcomir I of the Cimmerians b-440?
King Antenor of the Cimmerians b-480?
Helenus d-475?
Priam Ilium d-500?
Marcomir d-525?
Diluglio Ilium d-550?
Plaserio d-575?
Helenus d-600?
Diluglic d-625?
Almadion d-650?
Getmalor d-675?
Priam d-700?
Alexander d-725?
Basabiliano d-750?
Plesron d-775?
Helenus d-800?
Priamas II d-825?
Antenor d-850?
Plaserio II d-875?
Gaberiano d-900?
Eliacor d-925?
Plesron d-950?
Plaserio d-975?
Basabiliano d-1000?
Gelio d-1025?
King Esdron d-1050?
King Francus b-1050?
Cestrinus b-1075?
Helenus of Troy b-1100?
King Priam of Troy b-1125?
King Laomedon b-1150?
Ilus b-1175?
King Tros of Troy b-1200?
Erichthonius of Dardania b-1125?
Darda Dardanus b-1250?
Zeus b-1575?
son of Cronus the Titan and Rhea the Titan b-1600?
children of Uranus b1625?
son and husband of Gaia the Earth b1650?
daughter of Chaos Primeval

[DataPacRat]

This brings up another thought... since it's been said that certain talents with military use have a genetic component... does this mean that genealogists are being drafted the same way Randi was?

[Kodiak]

This brings up another thought... since it's been said that certain talents with military use have a genetic component... does this mean that genealogists are being drafted the same way Randi was?

The LDS Genealogical library in SLC is (IIRC) the largest and most well equipped genealogy center in the world. It seems like if a person has proven Nephelim ancestry it would be an important thing to find out where the demon "DNA" got mixed in and if there are other living descendants.

[Col. Crackpot]

wow. I have seen some odd things on this board over the years, but someone claiming to be a direct decendant of Zeus takes the cake. WTF?

[Darth Yan]

i actually thought he was joking at first

[Baughn]

It's not as unusual as you'd think.

I don't have nearly as detailed "genalogical records" as he, but there's an old family legend claiming that my family is descended from Balder, the norse god of.. hm, peace, mostly. Who's supposed to be dead. It's really not as interesting as you'd think, either.

[MarshalPurnell]

It was very common for medieval nobility to claim descent from Troy through the noble Roman families. Usually they were a little vague about what came after Troy but any educated person even back in the Middle Ages would have been familiar with the Aeneid and Homer. Needless to say, such claims of descent, even when backed up with elaborate forgeries, were papering over their origins as Germanic chiefs and local warlords.

Descent from the Norse gods was also a common claim for Scandinavian chieftains and Viking leaders. The Ynglings in particular claimed descent from Odin, and Snorri Sturlson speculated that the gods had been really successful rulers who had had a cult in their name crop up around their burial sites.

[GrayAnderson]

Technically, I can trace my family lineage back to Adam...but that's only holding the Anglo-Saxon Chronicles to be accurate. More realistically, we've got a solid peg on Alfred the Great and somewhat accurate records running back to the Germanic migrations and a bit before (where you get a bunch of chiefs living only in "Eastern Europe" or "Central Asia").

[fgalkin]

son of Elsie Clare MacKenzie, b1890

I'd bet money everything beyond this point in the ancestry line is falsified, connections being made where none exist, or people randomly made up.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[DataPacRat]

son of Elsie Clare MacKenzie, b1890

I'd bet money everything beyond this point in the ancestry line is falsified, connections being made where none exist, or people randomly made up.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

<shrugs> The list I presented was meant to be just an overview, not an exhaustive treatise listing sources and references, which seemed to be a bit much for this thread, as it has little to do with TSW. All it takes to counter your bet is a bit of Googling; picking one name off the list a half-dozen down or so, "Francoise Anastasie Savary", born 1728, reveals the pages http://www.doucetfamily.org/Genealogy/G05.htm#05-G42004 and http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... amily.html . If you think I'm running a web-wide conspiracy of genealogists, each with various different versions of their family trees online, just so I can tell a fanfiction forum that I have an admittedly near-certainly-inaccurate family tree linking myself to a mythical deity... well, I'd be perfectly willing to accept your money.

So how much cash do you owe me, now, and how do you want to transfer it - Lindens in Second Life, maybe?

[The Duchess of Zeon]

son of Elsie Clare MacKenzie, b1890

I'd bet money everything beyond this point in the ancestry line is falsified, connections being made where none exist, or people randomly made up.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Probably. I'd say that at the least even descent from Charlemagne is a lunatic claim. I have no coherent family history before the 1630s-ish, and my family was upper class, too--well, was after the 1630s. The first of my ancestors of whom there is any record was a mercenary commander of a pike unit under Wallenstein in the Thirty Years War. Before that, useless speculation, and I seriously doubt the claims of anyone except actual proved royalty and high nobility to trace families back before 1500 or so. And even they taper out by 1000-ish or so.

[fgalkin]

How 'bout we play a game? You win, I'll PayPal you 30 USD. You lose, I ban you under PR3:

Serious lies are not acceptable on this forum. If it is found that you have lied about your identity, your background, your accomplishments, or your status in life, you may face disciplinary action. If you are found to be consistently dishonest in forum discussions, that may also lead to disciplinary action.

Ready?

First, the reason I chose this bit as the cut off point is that for this to be true:

son of Elsie Clare MacKenzie, b1890
daughter of Sarah Jane Horne, b1842

As that claims Sarah Jane Horne gave birth at the age of 48, something still rare in the 21st century, much less the 19th, I would very much like to see some proof of the above claim.

Second, I followed your advice.

son of Jean Claude Landry, b1593

I googled him, and guess what I found?

"Jean-Claude Landry is effectively fictitious. There is no record showing that such a person ever existed. The husband of Marle Sallé is simply called Jean (or Jehan) Claude in the censuses of 1671 and 1678. According to archives, Marie Salé was married to Jean Claude; if she is to be called the mother of René Landry, necessarily we have to give her husband a name of Jean Claude LANDRY. But, I repeat, the name Jean Claude Landry is not to be found anywhere in the history of Acadia at the time; plus that the husband of Marie Salé was Jean Claude, PERIOD. He was a Micmac Indian. The Indians with the name Claude used to be quite numerous in Nova Scotia, The name became Glaude; in my young days I knew a number of them, who would write their name Glode (In French "au" is pronounced "o"). . His name occurs twice in the Port Royal Church Registers, ALWAYS as Jehan Clause, NEVER given as family name "Landry". As a matter of fact, if Clause had not been his family name, it would mean that the register gives him his first and SECOND name. Moreover, the registers of Port Royal ALWAYS give the WHOLE name of persons; but the fact is that Jehan Clause has his name given thus, NEVER with another name added to those two. If the family name had been omitted in the registers, it would be the only time that such a thing occured in any register. Thus CLAUDE was the family name."

You, sir, are descended from a historical fraud. Either retract your claims, or provide proof of your claims.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[midnight77]

How 'bout we play a game? You win, I'll PayPal you 30 USD. You lose, I ban you under PR3:

Serious lies are not acceptable on this forum. If it is found that you have lied about your identity, your background, your accomplishments, or your status in life, you may face disciplinary action. If you are found to be consistently dishonest in forum discussions, that may also lead to disciplinary action.

Ready?

First, the reason I chose this bit as the cut off point is that for this to be true:

son of Elsie Clare MacKenzie, b1890
daughter of Sarah Jane Horne, b1842

As that claims Sarah Jane Horne gave birth at the age of 48, something still rare in the 21st century, much less the 19th, I would very much like to see some proof of the above claim.

Second, I followed your advice.

son of Jean Claude Landry, b1593

I googled him, and guess what I found?

"Jean-Claude Landry is effectively fictitious. There is no record showing that such a person ever existed. The husband of Marle Sallé is simply called Jean (or Jehan) Claude in the censuses of 1671 and 1678. According to archives, Marie Salé was married to Jean Claude; if she is to be called the mother of René Landry, necessarily we have to give her husband a name of Jean Claude LANDRY. But, I repeat, the name Jean Claude Landry is not to be found anywhere in the history of Acadia at the time; plus that the husband of Marie Salé was Jean Claude, PERIOD. He was a Micmac Indian. The Indians with the name Claude used to be quite numerous in Nova Scotia, The name became Glaude; in my young days I knew a number of them, who would write their name Glode (In French "au" is pronounced "o"). . His name occurs twice in the Port Royal Church Registers, ALWAYS as Jehan Clause, NEVER given as family name "Landry". As a matter of fact, if Clause had not been his family name, it would mean that the register gives him his first and SECOND name. Moreover, the registers of Port Royal ALWAYS give the WHOLE name of persons; but the fact is that Jehan Clause has his name given thus, NEVER with another name added to those two. If the family name had been omitted in the registers, it would be the only time that such a thing occured in any register. Thus CLAUDE was the family name."

You, sir, are descended from a historical fraud. Either retract your claims, or provide proof of your claims.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

You realize you're being a douche, right?

[fgalkin]

How so? The man is lying through his teeth, and expects us to accept it all. Why should we do that? And HE is the one who took up my bet, when I was going to let the matter drop.

So how much cash do you owe me, now, and how do you want to transfer it - Lindens in Second Life, maybe?

He wants my money, he can work to earn it.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[DataPacRat]

How 'bout we play a game? You win, I'll PayPal you 30 USD. You lose, I ban you under PR3:

Serious lies are not acceptable on this forum. If it is found that you have lied about your identity, your background, your accomplishments, or your status in life, you may face disciplinary action. If you are found to be consistently dishonest in forum discussions, that may also lead to disciplinary action.

If you want to ban me, feel free - I only have the right to free speech, I don't have the right to free speech on someone else's message board. I

I will also note that there seems to be a slight miscommunication between the two of us. First, I have never claimed that I /am/ descended from Zeus, only that according to /some records/ that genealogical relationship exists. And I have freely admitted the likely errancy od those records.

Secondly, my previous post was not an attempt to claim that /all/ of the records are accurate, only that /some/ of them were, in contrast to your claimed bet that "everything" below that entry was false. I felt that in order to disprove that "everything", I only needed to demonstrate a single significant set that were accurate, which is why I felt that Googling for multiple genealogists' webpages would provide sufficient evidence thereof.

Ready?

I am ready to continue to post the truth, as best I am able to communicate it.

First, the reason I chose this bit as the cut off point is that for this to be true:

son of Elsie Clare MacKenzie, b1890
daughter of Sarah Jane Horne, b1842

As that claims Sarah Jane Horne gave birth at the age of 48, something still rare in the 21st century, much less the 19th, I would very much like to see some proof of the above claim.

Very well; go to https://www.novascotiagenealogy.com/ , and enter for last name 'mackenzie', and for given names 'elsie clare' (note, /not/ 'claire'), accept the terms and conditions, and you should find a single birth record. Click 'view', and you will find a zoomable digital picture of the original paper documentation of Elsie's birth.

Is this sufficient proof of Elsie's birth?

Second, I followed your advice.

son of Jean Claude Landry, b1593

I googled him, and guess what I found?

"Jean-Claude Landry is effectively fictitious. There is no record showing that such a person ever existed. The husband of Marle Sallé is simply called Jean (or Jehan) Claude in the censuses of 1671 and 1678. According to archives, Marie Salé was married to Jean Claude; if she is to be called the mother of René Landry, necessarily we have to give her husband a name of Jean Claude LANDRY. But, I repeat, the name Jean Claude Landry is not to be found anywhere in the history of Acadia at the time; plus that the husband of Marie Salé was Jean Claude, PERIOD. He was a Micmac Indian. The Indians with the name Claude used to be quite numerous in Nova Scotia, The name became Glaude; in my young days I knew a number of them, who would write their name Glode (In French "au" is pronounced "o"). . His name occurs twice in the Port Royal Church Registers, ALWAYS as Jehan Clause, NEVER given as family name "Landry". As a matter of fact, if Clause had not been his family name, it would mean that the register gives him his first and SECOND name. Moreover, the registers of Port Royal ALWAYS give the WHOLE name of persons; but the fact is that Jehan Clause has his name given thus, NEVER with another name added to those two. If the family name had been omitted in the registers, it would be the only time that such a thing occured in any register. Thus CLAUDE was the family name."

You, sir, are descended from a historical fraud. Either retract your claims, or provide proof of your claims.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Fgalkin, I am willing to accept your link as evidence for the non-existence of Jean Claude Landry. However, as I have never claimed that the descendency list I posted was accurate, I am unable to retract it. Technically, by the terms you set forth, this would seem to imply that I am to be banned; I look forward with interest and curiosity to finding out what will happen next.

[CaptainChewbacca]

You realize you're being a douche, right?

Being a douche on SDN is ok, as long as you're right.

[fgalkin]

Yay backpedaling!

I will also note that there seems to be a slight miscommunication between the two of us. First, I have never claimed that I /am/ descended from Zeus, only that according to /some records/ that genealogical relationship exists. And I have freely admitted the likely errancy od those records.

And yet you still demanded I pay you!

Secondly, my previous post was not an attempt to claim that /all/ of the records are accurate, only that /some/ of them were, in contrast to your claimed bet that "everything" below that entry was false. I felt that in order to disprove that "everything", I only needed to demonstrate a single significant set that were accurate, which is why I felt that Googling for multiple genealogists' webpages would provide sufficient evidence thereof.

"Everything," in the sense that while these people may indeed be related to each other, they are not related to YOU.

I am ready to continue to post the truth, as best I am able to communicate it.

Good!

Very well; go to https://www.novascotiagenealogy.com/ , and enter for last name 'mackenzie', and for given names 'elsie clare' (note, /not/ 'claire'), accept the terms and conditions, and you should find a single birth record. Click 'view', and you will find a zoomable digital picture of the original paper documentation of Elsie's birth.

Is this sufficient proof of Elsie's birth?

I see a birth certificate from 1944 saying that an Elsie Clare MacKenzie was born to a Sarah Jane Horne in 1890. What proof is there that this is the Sarah Jane Horne, born in 1842?

Fgalkin, I am willing to accept your link as evidence for the non-existence of Jean Claude Landry. However, as I have never claimed that the descendency list I posted was accurate, I am unable to retract it. Technically, by the terms you set forth, this would seem to imply that I am to be banned; I look forward with interest and curiosity to finding out what will happen next.

You can retract the claim that you know your family history past the end of the 19th century, and you'll be fine.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Thanas]

Okay...real historian coming through.

First of all, I just took one glance at this guy's genealogical line and I immediately knew he was lying.

Why?

Look at the following section:

Prince Adlebert Wambert of S. Franks
Adelbert d491
"Long Haired" Clodius b380
King Pharamond of Westphalia b352

Westphalia did not exist as a seperate territory back then. You fail.

Marcomir b347
Clodius b324
Dagobert b300
Genebald I b262
Dagobert b230?
Walter b215?
clodius b200?
Bartherus b180?
Hilderic b160?
Sunno b137
Farabert b122
Clodomir b104?
Marcomir IV b80?
Odomar IV b60?
Richemer b30?
Ratherius b10?
Antenor b10 BC? (following estimated dates all BC)
Clodomir b-30?
Marcomir b-60?
Clodius b-80?
Francus b-100?
Antharius b-125?
Cassander b-160?
Merodochus b-175?
Clodomir b-200?
Antenor b-225?
Clodius b-250?
Marcomir b-275?
Nicanor b-300?
Clodomir b-320?

A lot of those names are stolen from the Liber historiae Francorum. The good thing is that the franks did not exist at 320 BC. Oops.

Furthermore, I love such an unbroken line. We real historians have not been able to trace such an unbroken line for a single dynasty of those times, but he has done the work for over 600 years, at a time when no written records were kept?

And a lot of those names do not fit into the early german naming conventions either. Blood relatives of those times had a variation of the same name. These people all do not, so either he faked it or they were not blood related, hence he too is a liar.

Bassanus Mangus "Priest" Ilium b-340?
Diocles Ilium b-360?
Helenus b-380?
Priam b-400?
Son b-420?
King Marcomir I of the Cimmerians b-440?
King Antenor of the Cimmerians b-480?
Helenus d-475?
Priam Ilium d-500?
Marcomir d-525?
Diluglio Ilium d-550?
Plaserio d-575?
Helenus d-600?
Diluglic d-625?
Almadion d-650?
Getmalor d-675?
Priam d-700?
Alexander d-725?
Basabiliano d-750?
Plesron d-775?
Helenus d-800?
Priamas II d-825?
Antenor d-850?
Plaserio II d-875?
Gaberiano d-900?
Eliacor d-925?
Plesron d-950?
Plaserio d-975?
Basabiliano d-1000?
Gelio d-1025?
King Esdron d-1050?
King Francus b-1050?
Cestrinus b-1075?
Helenus of Troy b-1100?
King Priam of Troy b-1125?

BWAHAHAHAHAHA.

What he does here is quite clever. He uses the illias and then immediately fakes over to the kings of the bosporan kingdom, and then once more transfers from them to the Franks.

The trouble here is - the whole lineage is fake. There is no evidence at all. The kings of the bosporan kingdom are highly disputed, there is no certainty et all. And there is certainly no mention of them being in any way related to the franks.

The whole issue of Charlemagne being related to ancient figures btw came up when the west once more clashed with the byzantine east and chroniclers added some figures willy-nilly to give the western rulers the appearance of an ancient heritage.

In short, the whole thing is a fake, and not even a good one.

And I am willing to bet my credibility in the field on it. If he can provide evidence of it, you can expect an article of me saying I am a professional fraud in the next newspaper of your choosing.

[DataPacRat]

Yay backpedaling!

<frowns> I regret if I gave you the impression in my earlier posts that I seriously /believe/ I am descended from Zeus; I tried to make it clear that I don't believe Zeus ever existed in the real world.

I will also note that there seems to be a slight miscommunication between the two of us. First, I have never claimed that I /am/ descended from Zeus, only that according to /some records/ that genealogical relationship exists. And I have freely admitted the likely errancy od those records.

And yet you still demanded I pay you!

You took that post as a serious 'demand'? I didn't believe you were /really/ betting money, since such bets tend to mention the amount at the time of the bet; I tried to respond in what I believed to be a similarly non-serious vein.

Secondly, my previous post was not an attempt to claim that /all/ of the records are accurate, only that /some/ of them were, in contrast to your claimed bet that "everything" below that entry was false. I felt that in order to disprove that "everything", I only needed to demonstrate a single significant set that were accurate, which is why I felt that Googling for multiple genealogists' webpages would provide sufficient evidence thereof.

"Everything," in the sense that while these people may indeed be related to each other, they are not related to YOU.

In that case, I'm surprised that you didn't simply cut off my list at the knees, at the two names I redacted for privacy. Since you picked a more distant name as the cut-off point, I assumed you meant 'everything' below that point more literally.

Very well; go to https://www.novascotiagenealogy.com/ , and enter for last name 'mackenzie', and for given names 'elsie clare' (note, /not/ 'claire'), accept the terms and conditions, and you should find a single birth record. Click 'view', and you will find a zoomable digital picture of the original paper documentation of Elsie's birth.

Is this sufficient proof of Elsie's birth?

I see a birth certificate from 1944 saying that an Elsie Clare MacKenzie was born to a Sarah Jane Horne in 1890. What proof is there that this is the Sarah Jane Horne, born in 1842?

Okay. Go back to https://www.novascotiagenealogy.com/ . Enter 'horne' as the last name, and 'sarah jane' as the given names. You will note the purple tab, labelled Marriages, has the number '1'. Click there. View the document. About eight entries down is entry #30, the marriage record of George Mackenzie and Sarah Jane Horne. The marriage took place in 1870; Sarah Jane's age is listed as 28, putting her birth around 1842.


I would prefer not to take you through the process of connecting the Sarah Jane Horne listed in the marriage record with the Sarah Jane Horne listed in Elsie Clare MacKenzie's birth record, as the process involved examining various census records for the county over a large expanse of time, noting down everybody with the right last names, and simply assuming that the Sarah Jane MacKenzie listed each time, and listed as George Mackenzie's wife each time, and with the right age each time, means that it's the same Sarah Jane. It might help if you note that Elsie's father is listed in the birth certificate as George Mackenzie.

Fgalkin, I am willing to accept your link as evidence for the non-existence of Jean Claude Landry. However, as I have never claimed that the descendency list I posted was accurate, I am unable to retract it. Technically, by the terms you set forth, this would seem to imply that I am to be banned; I look forward with interest and curiosity to finding out what will happen next.

You can retract the claim that you know your family history past the end of the 19th century, and you'll be fine.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

I have /extremely/ good records on my father's side that go back to the birth of one Hans Voth in 1727, but have not bothered mentioning them until now, as they were not germane to any points I've been making. Therefore, such a retraction would be a lie, and I will not make it, even if it means you ban me.

[Kodiak]

*snip long quote*

You realize you're being a douche, right?

He's not being a douche, he's simply doing what we do on this board- seeking extraordinary evidence for extraordinary claims. He googled one of the persons in this "descendants of Zeus" genealogy and found that the person doesn't exist. He's not being mean about it, he's stating a fact. It's possible that the person posting this genealogy had no idea there was a weak link in the family lineage, but now that evidence contrary to the claims has been presented the onus is on the claimant to provide his own evidence. If he has some evidence, superb- let's see it. If not, now everyone is the wiser for this conversation and we can move on.

In my own family history there was a tale told that we had an ancestor who got into a fistfight w/ General George Washington during the colonial America period. When I finally got to looking through the records and doing my own research, I found that our ancestor was not this man- he simply had the same name. When facts before your worldview you can either get butthurt and ignore facts, or you can be an adult and adjust your worldview.

[DataPacRat]

Okay...real historian coming through.

Hi!

First of all, I just took one glance at this guy's genealogical line and I immediately knew he was lying.

Um... it seems that, somehow, I failed to make it clear in the post I pasted that line, so I'll try saying it again here.

I don't believe it's true.

What I /do/ believe is that some people wrote down records of this descendency, which they /claimed/ was true... and, thus, can make for some interesting conversation.

Sometimes, someone will post something onto a message board which they know doesn't accurately represent reality, and they will try posting it in such a way to let other people know they don't believe that it's actually true, for the purposes of entertaining everyone involved. If you want to get philosophical about it, then it's possible to consider everyone who writes fiction as a 'liar', but it's rarely productive to do so.

A lot of those names are stolen from the Liber historiae Francorum.

So /that's/ where my sources got them! <ahem>

What he does here is quite clever.

I'm afraid I can't take the credit; I got the the entire Charlemagne-to-Troy claims from previously existing sources.

The trouble here is - the whole lineage is fake. There is no evidence at all.

Even before the moderator piped up, I agreed with someone else who mentioned that.


So... are we clear, here? I know that most of the lineage I posted is untrue (but a significant portion of the post-Charlemagne line is as factual as any genealogy can be), I knew it when I posted, I /said/ it when I posted, I've never actually claimed Zeus is really my relative...

... has anybody got anything interesting to say about The Salvation War?