The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[DataPacRat]

A few more general thoughts on the setting...

We've had mention of Nephilim, people who are "descended" from demons (or, at least, from demon-corrupted genes), and thus have a certain connection with demons and Hell...

... but would any human-created tests to find Nephilim have a chance of detecting humans whose genes have come from /other/ sources, such as the mysterious Rhea and Titans/Devils/whatnot?

(I ask because, according to the genealogical records, I can trace a direct lineage back through a certain number of generations to Rhea herself; if those records can be trusted, she is no farther than being my 121st-great grandmother. Admittedly, that's a pretty big 'if', but in a setting like TSW, who knows?)


Humanity has, in the past century or so, found a whole variety of ways to off its members in ways that could potentially mess up the Resurrection method (whatever that might be). Are there any particular categories of deaths that are missing from Hell, such as radiation-based?

Has anyone who's been cryonically frozen been found in Hell?

If someone dies on the table, fully flatlined, and is then brought back through heroic surgical intervention and so on... does a version of themselves appear in Hell? If so, what happens after they die again?


It's been mentioned that when someone dies, and are older, then their Second Life bodies are younger... and, of course, lethal injuries are not replicated in the Second Life bodies. But what about other alterations? Do the dead have tattoos? Scars (such as circumcision) healed? Missing limbs restored? What happens to conjoined twins?

What happens to someone with a degenerative brain disease? What sort of mind do they have when resurrected?

Are there any chimpanzees in Hell?


If a Second Life human in Hell goes back to Earth and stays long enough to die... do they get re-Resurrected?


... now that humanity is in control of Hell's entry gate, instead of Minos, is anyone actually trying to do any controlled experiments involving killing people to try to find the answers to any of these, and related, questions?

[Jamesfirecat]

If someone dies on the table, fully flatlined, and is then brought back through heroic surgical intervention and so on... does a version of themselves appear in Hell? If so, what happens after they die again?

Given that it seems to take some time for your body to show up in Hell and it doesn't happen the moment you die, I'm willing to bet on this question the answer is no. You only show up in hell after your 100% totally and completely dead and have stayed that way for a while. Everyone else probably has the "go into the light" near death experience (like our friend what's his name who rammed his truck into Fluffy) they just don't actually go anyplace as their astral energy/soul or whatever you want to call it gets yanked back to their body on earth.


Oh and also in the issue of if you go to Hell again if you manage to find a way to survive on earth and live there. The answer to that is a deffinative N-O! The energy generated by your body sling shots you over into the next existance bubble from hell. It's sort of like it's based on your place of birth rather than your citizenship, it doesn't matter where you are living it matters where you were born. If it was on Earth you go to Hell. If it was Hell then you go to the next level up/down whatever it may be....

[Simon_Jester]

... but would any human-created tests to find Nephilim have a chance of detecting humans whose genes have come from /other/ sources, such as the mysterious Rhea and Titans/Devils/whatnot?

(I ask because, according to the genealogical records, I can trace a direct lineage back through a certain number of generations to Rhea herself; if those records can be trusted, she is no farther than being my 121st-great grandmother. Admittedly, that's a pretty big 'if', but in a setting like TSW, who knows?)

...Huh?

It's been mentioned that when someone dies, and are older, then their Second Life bodies are younger... and, of course, lethal injuries are not replicated in the Second Life bodies. But what about other alterations? Do the dead have tattoos? Scars (such as circumcision) healed? Missing limbs restored? What happens to conjoined twins?

What happens to someone with a degenerative brain disease? What sort of mind do they have when resurrected?

Now these are interesting questions.

[Jamesfirecat]

What happens to someone with a degenerative brain disease? What sort of mind do they have when resurrected?

Hell seems to fix all the problems with your mind and body that it can fix. So I'd guess that if you had alzhimers of Huntington's Disease, things that eat away at your mind you'd come back with your mental facilities fully intact and not have them pulled out from under you again.

If however you had the kind of condition that kept you from ever developing mentally fully then you'd be more or less SOL in Hell as well. If you suffered some kind of physicall truama that caused you to be in the 70's IQ wise, you'd probably be smarter in Hell.


These are just my guesses of course Stuart could lay down more definiative statements, though I'd rather he post the next chapter first...

[Junghalli]

The problem with brain damage is it destroys the structures in which memories are stored. You might wake up in Hell physically healthy, but with little or no memory of your life on Earth. In the worst cases what would come out of the Minos Gate might be basically a newborn infant with an adult's body. The resurrection system could feasibly be designed in such a way as to eliminate this problem, however. It could, for instance, make back-ups of your mind-state throughout your life and restore lost memories from that. Or for all we know there just might be something to the "soul" concept after all in this universe.

... what guarantee is there that if you die while not on Earth or in Hell, you'll get /any/ Second Life at all? The only way to find out is to have someone go out there and die, risking Full Death if the Resurrection Machinery doesn't work...

If that's a problem there's no reason everybody would have to go and actually live there. We can build giant industrial faming plantations and mines and simply export resources to Earth. People who work there could be given a kind of hazard pay for risking permanent death.

Of course, as Baughn said, the comparitive fragility of First Life bodies will almost certainly cease being a problem in a matter of decades to centuries, barring some catastrophe befalling our civilization.

[Darmalus]

There were plenty of people on their First Life who died during the the war against hell and then came back. That Russian soldier even returned to his unit.

[GrayAnderson]

For what it's worth, I think Stuart explicitly differentiated between Demons and Devils. Thus, Yahweh and Satan are clearly of different species than the various other beings. Of course, whether they're of the same species or not is an entirely different issue.

[mr friendly guy]

Having read through the last few chapters again, why am I getting the feeling that Ceaser is going to be, by far, the biggest long term threat to Earth?

I mean we're already seeing clear capital flow from dead people on Earth to his new Rome to build the infrastructure he needs, we also have a LOT of ex military people, who have been trained by the US to a crack standard, with a lot of experience, who are clearly renouncing their loyalty to the US upon death and heading off to Rome, dito a lot of the people who are dying and becoming citizens.

For that matter, the old people taking their cash with them out of Earth doesn't mean much in the short term, as its probably all coming right back to Earth to buy the things Ceaser despeartly needs, but in the long term I wonder if the 'Death Tax' will get a little more 'real', much the same way if someone left the US and tried to move a huge chunk of cash to another country, they have to pay tax on it.

In the short and medium term its really not a big deal...but in the long term as the Roman Republic increases in size and influence...

It will have to be a long time then. Even if he has military personnel without the civilian infrastructure to manufacture the usual industrial goods as well as the military hardware he won't be much of a threat militarily. Economically, possibly, but once Heaven is defeated, living humans would be able to start setting up colonies / military bases in Hell, even if its just to exploit its natural resources like oil. Moreover once we start investigating these other bubble worlds who is to say we won't have further colonies and the resources there to allow us to outmatch whatever new Rome can come up with.

Of course its most probably preferable to come to some sort of understanding with Caesar, where its not worth the cost for us to go to war with each other.

[DataPacRat]

On a slightly different note...

Australia gets to be on the big council, and Brazil and Thailand and Singapore... but Canada doesn't?

[Stuart]

On a slightly different note. Australia gets to be on the big council, and Brazil and Thailand and Singapore... but Canada doesn't?

It's pure chance; the first 15 countries to start shooting at daemons got on the council, the rest have to pick a council member to represent them. The reason for the 15 limit is that that's the largest number one can have at a meeting and still get a decision made. Like everything else, it's a kludged-up solution to a problem that developed so fast a carefully thought-out solution didn't happen. One could argue that it has a vestige of logic in that it could be claimed the daemons attacked the most important countries first but that would be specious retrospective logic. The truth is that countries joined in the order they started shooting and the council stopped growing with number 15.

[Stuart Mackey]

On a slightly different note...

Australia gets to be on the big council, and Brazil and Thailand and Singapore... but Canada doesn't?

Don't worry about it, The English speakers always get another English speaker to hold up their interests, esp if they are one of the Commonwealth ex Dominions.

[DataPacRat]

On a slightly different note. Australia gets to be on the big council, and Brazil and Thailand and Singapore... but Canada doesn't?

It's pure chance; the first 15 countries to start shooting at daemons got on the council,

Hm; given the Canadian military presence in the Middle-east and Afghanistan, I would have thought they would have been among the first to the Hellmouth.


Oh well - it's not exactly like I'm trying to push the Council up to 16, or have Canada edge out one of the listed members... though, come to think of it, if someone within the TSW universe /were/ trying to get Canada onto the Council, that's the sort of complication that might make it seem like a more realistic political body... though whether or not that's a /good/ thing is a whole 'nother question...

[Stuart]

Hm; given the Canadian military presence in the Middle-east and Afghanistan, I would have thought they would have been among the first to the Hellmouth. Oh well - it's not exactly like I'm trying to push the Council up to 16, or have Canada edge out one of the listed members... though, come to think of it, if someone within the TSW universe /were/ trying to get Canada onto the Council, that's the sort of complication that might make it seem like a more realistic political body... though whether or not that's a /good/ thing is a whole 'nother question...

The Canadians were just out of luck. I deliberately made the Yamantau council an odd and jerrybuilt structure because most fictional stories always have a perfect solution arriving and being installed to the acclaim of all and life just isn't like that. Essentially the problem was that a huge army was forming in the Middle East (and shortly to go into Hell) and its political command structure was non-existant. So, a hastily-built command was thrown together. Like most temporary solutions, it'll probably last for centuries. The political complications will be dealt with in the third book (although there's a little bit of finance coming up in Part 41).

[Darth Yan]

1.) Have you seen that article about Armageddon in testing?

2.) You said you would have updated by now

[CaptainChewbacca]

So who are the 15 members of the council?

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

2.) You said you would have updated by now

LOL. I notice a pattern to Stuart's posting. He posts one or more non-story responses to things other people said previously, like a volcano rattling everyone's windows with a few earthquakes. Then, Mount Pantheocide erupts a new chapter of pure win.

As for portals and the EM spectrum, I'm curious how we'd be able to figure out where the portal's band gap lies, if indeed the portal starts transmitting EM once again above a certain critical frequency. I'm also curious if there's a theoretical minimum and maximum size a portal can reliably or efficiently achieve, and if these properties can be dependent or modified by the dimensional energy gradient. Perhaps we just aren't privy to new Aperture Science research?

Also, if I may be so bold, the discussion of lineage that's cropped up recently is getting distracting and boring to me. No offense meant, but simply my personal opinion

[GrayAnderson]

Hm; given the Canadian military presence in the Middle-east and Afghanistan, I would have thought they would have been among the first to the Hellmouth. Oh well - it's not exactly like I'm trying to push the Council up to 16, or have Canada edge out one of the listed members... though, come to think of it, if someone within the TSW universe /were/ trying to get Canada onto the Council, that's the sort of complication that might make it seem like a more realistic political body... though whether or not that's a /good/ thing is a whole 'nother question...

The Canadians were just out of luck. I deliberately made the Yamantau council an odd and jerrybuilt structure because most fictional stories always have a perfect solution arriving and being installed to the acclaim of all and life just isn't like that. Essentially the problem was that a huge army was forming in the Middle East (and shortly to go into Hell) and its political command structure was non-existant. So, a hastily-built command was thrown together. Like most temporary solutions, it'll probably last for centuries. The political complications will be dealt with in the third book (although there's a little bit of finance coming up in Part 41).

Careful, Stuart...you're making me all the more excited about the next part.



And yes, I'm saying that in reference to discussions of finances. Go figure.

[JonB]

And yes, I'm saying that in reference to discussions of finances. Go figure.

Another fan of Spice and Wolf? Yay!

As for the talk about Canada not being on the Council, I can accept Stuart's explanation as to why we aren't. Many more Commonwealth nations, and we have our own little powerblock. What I am looking askance at Stuart over is the relative lack of mention of any Canadian forces so far. Now, I will proactively state that I'm not 'requesting' Stuart to include named Canadian Forces in his work, it seems odd that a great many other nations get mention, but one so close to America does not.

Besides, I think our biggest contributions will be natural resources, not military units.

And finally a direct question to Stuart - you've only mentioned the UK as enacting conscription, so I have to ask if any other nations did so, and to what levels were the conscripts kept once the Earth-Hell War was finished?

[TimothyC]

So who are the 15 members of the council?

The United States, Russia, China, Great Britain, France, Germany, Australia, Japan, India, Iran, Israel, Brazil, Italy, Thailand and Singapore. [Link]

[GrayAnderson]

And yes, I'm saying that in reference to discussions of finances. Go figure.

Another fan of Spice and Wolf? Yay!

Actually, I'd never heard of it. Blame a dislike for the manga visual style. But to put this another way, I was raised around a small business (machine shop), and my spare time hobbies include managing my stock portfolio (and no, I don't daytrade...I'm not a gambler) and tinkering with economics.

Besides, I think our biggest contributions will be natural resources, not military units.

Oil and other things do leap to mind there. And...Canada only has 30 million people and not that much of a military.

[Samuel]

Stuart...

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... 1&t=137393

Some of there criticism is off, but alot of it... well, how much will the story change between first draft and final? Because if you want to mess with the members to insure that we will buy your books

[DataPacRat]

Of course, all that pales in comparison to the thing that's really hilarious: people who claim to be the reincarnation of famous people.

Ooh, now there's an interesting set of thoughts to apply to this setting: Can the Resurrection Machinery that pops out recently-killed people through the Minos Gate be tweaked to have... other results? Is it completely infallible in putting the right minds into the right bodies, or might some recently-dead fellow find himself in his Second Life in an unfamiliar form, of inappropriate shape, gender, and/or species?

[Simon_Jester]

So, back to TSW, how quickly do Nephilim powers get 'bred out'? Would there be a greater chance of finding them in a relatively closed society without much fresh blood being brought in from outsiders, the sort of groups that have tendencies towards various heritable diseases?

Only if such a society slept with an unusual number of demons, I'd think; that's certainly possible.

[Lagmonster]

I've split out the entire side-track on family histories to the HoS, for lack of a sensible other place to put it.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

OK, So I've been on vacation I'm back now and the next part should be up over the weekend unless something horrible happens.

So, what's the horrible something that happened?