DataPacRat: Descended from kings and gods

[fgalkin]

Did you just pay $20 to a genealogy site and accepted the result without question?

You took that post as a serious 'demand'? I didn't believe you were /really/ betting money, since such bets tend to mention the amount at the time of the bet; I tried to respond in what I believed to be a similarly non-serious vein.

The point, is, grot, you said that you were right.

In that case, I'm surprised that you didn't simply cut off my list at the knees, at the two names I redacted for privacy. Since you picked a more distant name as the cut-off point, I assumed you meant 'everything' below that point more literally.

Because I was more interested in the specific point where your ancestry line turned bullshit, and I believe I found it.

Okay. Go back to https://www.novascotiagenealogy.com/ . Enter 'horne' as the last name, and 'sarah jane' as the given names. You will note the purple tab, labelled Marriages, has the number '1'. Click there. View the document. About eight entries down is entry #30, the marriage record of George Mackenzie and Sarah Jane Horne. The marriage took place in 1870; Sarah Jane's age is listed as 28, putting her birth around 1842.

According to Registration Year: 1870 - Book: 1815 - Page: 152 - Number: 30, Sarah Jane Horne was 26, not 28. Her father was Philip Ann Horne, not a Philip G. Horne. You are lying.

I would prefer not to take you through the process of connecting the Sarah Jane Horne listed in the marriage record with the Sarah Jane Horne listed in Elsie Clare MacKenzie's birth record, as the process involved examining various census records for the county over a large expanse of time, noting down everybody with the right last names, and simply assuming that the Sarah Jane MacKenzie listed each time, and listed as George Mackenzie's wife each time, and with the right age each time, means that it's the same Sarah Jane. It might help if you note that Elsie's father is listed in the birth certificate as George Mackenzie.

See above. Also, the birth certificate lists the birthplace if this George MACKenzie, born in Porter's Lake. The marriage register lists a George McKenzie (not MacKenzie), born in Halifax.

These are not the same people.

I have /extremely/ good records on my father's side that go back to the birth of one Hans Voth in 1727, but have not bothered mentioning them until now, as they were not germane to any points I've been making. Therefore, such a retraction would be a lie, and I will not make it, even if it means you ban me.

If they're as good as the ones you just posted, yes I will. If not, just the records on your mother's side would suffice.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Okay, this genealogy discussion just became an extremely boring and obtuse insult to everyone here! Is there a Senator in the thread?

[DataPacRat]

Did you just pay $20 to a genealogy site and accepted the result without question?

Of course not.

Okay. Go back to https://www.novascotiagenealogy.com/ . Enter 'horne' as the last name, and 'sarah jane' as the given names. You will note the purple tab, labelled Marriages, has the number '1'. Click there. View the document. About eight entries down is entry #30, the marriage record of George Mackenzie and Sarah Jane Horne. The marriage took place in 1870; Sarah Jane's age is listed as 28, putting her birth around 1842.

According to Registration Year: 1870 - Book: 1815 - Page: 152 - Number: 30, Sarah Jane Horne was 26, not 28. Her father was Philip Ann Horne, not a Philip G. Horne. You are lying.

I would prefer not to take you through the process of connecting the Sarah Jane Horne listed in the marriage record with the Sarah Jane Horne listed in Elsie Clare MacKenzie's birth record, as the process involved examining various census records for the county over a large expanse of time, noting down everybody with the right last names, and simply assuming that the Sarah Jane MacKenzie listed each time, and listed as George Mackenzie's wife each time, and with the right age each time, means that it's the same Sarah Jane. It might help if you note that Elsie's father is listed in the birth certificate as George Mackenzie.

See above. Also, the birth certificate lists the birthplace if this George MACKenzie, born in Porter's Lake. The marriage register lists a George McKenzie (not MacKenzie), born in Halifax.

These are not the same people.

I have /extremely/ good records on my father's side that go back to the birth of one Hans Voth in 1727, but have not bothered mentioning them until now, as they were not germane to any points I've been making. Therefore, such a retraction would be a lie, and I will not make it, even if it means you ban me.

If they're as good as the ones you just posted, yes I will. If not, just the records on your mother's side would suffice.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

And now it seems we get into some of the more entertaining aspects of genealogy... where census takers use the wrong spelling, use one middle name or another but not both, handwriting that makes 8's look like 6's or vice versa, and all the other messy, hard-to-interpret, /fun/ stuff comes in that makes genealogy a social science rather than a physical one.

I have come to a slight difficulty in trying to convince you, as nearly all my genealogical sources are paper, microfilm, or microfiche, and have never been digitized; it was only a stroke of luck that as much of the Nova Scotia archives as are online are at all. Offline, I have more than sufficient evidence to describe Sarah Jane Horne and her family; however, such evidence is hardly useful to convince someone online. It is even quite possible that there /isn't/ sufficient evidence available online to convince you - after all, you can always simply continue demanding "more proof, more proof, more proof!".

As for my father's side of the family, one of the best sources is the diaries of Tobias Schmidt Jr., translated by Allen Schmidt; the listing at http://www.amazon.co.uk/Translated-diar ... B0007BOKTO should help you make an interlibrary loan request, should you desire. If you don't, you can look him up online: Tobias Schmidt Jr.; b 10 Feb 1852 Lzeanewo, Poland; d 12 Mar 1937 Hepburn, Saskatchewan, Canada ; first wife Justina Peters; second wife Maria Wiebe. That should be enough to let you find him, such as at http://www.dakotadirksens.com/getperson ... otherfield . If you have trouble finding how I'm related to him, the line goes my father (name redacted), my late grandfather Ernie Harry Boese b1916 Hepburn, Saskatchewan, Canada; Agnes Aganetha Schmidt b1875 Yankton, South Dakota, USA; Tobias Schmidt Jr. b1852 Lzeanewo, Poland; Johann Schmidt b1822 Przechowka, Germany; Anna Voth b1797 Brenkenhoswalde, Driesen, Germany; Bernt Voth v1772; Hans Voth b1727.


In the meantime, it's getting late locally, so I'm going to have to head to bed, and, if I remain unbanned and the subject still finds favour, pick this up again later.


... in the meantime, how 'bout them Baldricks? Just how extensive do you think the search for Nephilim is? Would any governments try to implement mandatory blood samples, so that whenever somebody comes up with what might be a test for Nephilimism they can perform the test immediately and en masse for their population?

[Crayz9000]

On the genealogy topic, on my mother's side I had a great-aunt that spent the better part of her later years tracing the family tree back through America and Europe. The farthest she was able to go back more or less concretely was roughly to the time of Henry VIII, to a relative of Sir Thomas More (a relative of the sort of third-cousin-twice-removed, if I recall). The records implied that the lineage went back into Normandy prior to 1066 (due to the French family name roots) and from there, it's anybody's guess. They weren't that great at keeping proper records in the medieval period.

On a more amusing note, apparently one of my ancestor's relatives saved Abe Lincoln's life by pulling him out of a creek at a young age. Butterfly effect in action, I guess.

On my father's side, according to the family we're descended from one of the royal palace guards in Sweden a few hundred years ago. Beyond that, it's anyone's guess.

[Darth Wong]

Geneaology always seems really dodgy unless you have an unusual surname with a well-known history. I don't, but my wife Rebecca comes from the Mulcaster family line, and all Mulcasters are apparently descended from one guy named David De Mulcaster, who supposedly founded the entire family line in the 12th century, in the Muncaster region in England. It seems like it would be really difficult to assemble a complete history all the way back, though, and you always have to be suspicious of any family history which happens to conclude that you had a really important ancestor.

PS. Rebecca has a dream about visiting Muncaster in England one day, since it's theoretically her ancestral home. Hopefully it's not too disappointing; I'd hate to show up and see a bunch of shopping malls and McDonald's.

[Slacker]

I've got a bit of luck on my mother's side of the family in that regard-my great-great grandfather was apparently some black sheep in the Rose clan that was sent over to Canada to manage family property. At some point either he or his son moved to New York and a hundred-odd years later I was the result. It's not worth very much-my grandmother's got a little card that gives her a free tour of the main castle-but it's pretty nifty all the same.

The rest of my family tree is pretty much a mess, but *eh*. Through that one line I can trace back quite a bit.

*twitches while waiting for story update*

[Guardsman Bass]

son of Elsie Clare MacKenzie, b1890

I'd bet money everything beyond this point in the ancestry line is falsified, connections being made where none exist, or people randomly made up.

Have a very nice day.
-fgalkin

Probably. I'd say that at the least even descent from Charlemagne is a lunatic claim. I have no coherent family history before the 1630s-ish, and my family was upper class, too--well, was after the 1630s. The first of my ancestors of whom there is any record was a mercenary commander of a pike unit under Wallenstein in the Thirty Years War. Before that, useless speculation, and I seriously doubt the claims of anyone except actual proved royalty and high nobility to trace families back before 1500 or so. And even they taper out by 1000-ish or so.

You know of both the person, the rough dates, and the occupation (Thirty Years War pikeman)? You're pretty fortunate, then. All we know on my father's side is that the line goes back to about the early 1800s (1820s, I think), where it ends because the guy was a bastard (and the family member who was doing the geneology couldn't find any trace of either the father or the mother). On my mother's side, all we know is a series of names, and that my mother's ancestors from Germany apparently wandered all over Westphalia and Hesse before winding up near Frankfurt.

One thing that's been annoying for said family member (she's on my father's side, and lives in the UK) has been that while the name's not really common by any means, there are still a number of variations that are very, very close to it in spelling, meaning that at some point the line might have been lost on a branch simply due to a misspelling. There's actually one variation that supposedly turned up on a document from the late 14th century, but I'd be very, very skeptical as to whether said person is related to me.

I'm wondering if the other guy got stuck with a fictional geneology. If I recall correctly, noble families were wont to do that, making exaggerated and ridiculous lineages going way back to famous people (even biblical figures). Assuming, of course, that's he not just talking shit.

[DataPacRat]

I'm wondering if the other guy got stuck with a fictional geneology. If I recall correctly, noble families were wont to do that, making exaggerated and ridiculous lineages going way back to famous people (even biblical figures). Assuming, of course, that's he not just talking shit.

Hi; 'other guy' here.

I find it somewhat surprising that on the TVTropes 'Just Bugs Me' page ( http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/J ... lvationWar ), some of the people who didn't actually read TSW and made disparaging comments about it are castigated... while here, there seem to be several posters who don't seem to have actually read what I've posted, and yet feel perfectly justified in making various disparaging comments.


Fgalkin, you posted that 'the birth certificate lists the birthplace if this George MACKenzie, born in Porter's Lake. The marriage register lists a George McKenzie (not MacKenzie), born in Halifax.' However, even the most cursory investigation would reveal that Porter's Lake is /in/ Halifax. (If you need that explained another way, Porter's Lake : Halifax :: Whitechapel : London.) You also seem to be making a deal about the use of 'Mc' compared to 'Mac', when anyone who has read up on the era would know that few people at the time cared about the difference, and often used the alternate spellings interchangeably. (I'm not even going to get into the whole 'moving the goalposts' aspect.) If /this/ is the quality of the evidence you are trying to use to claim that I'm a liar, then I see no reason to continue responding to you on the topic; moderator or no moderator, if you continue to misrepresent what I wrote and use those false claims of my words to call me a liar, I will treat you the way I would any other troll trying to get a rise out of me...

... I'll deliberately and maliciously go about enjoying my life, having fun, and enjoying reading science-fiction and fantasy stories.


So, how about that square-cube law? Something I've been wondering since near the beginning of this series, is what sort of materials the kaiju-sized demons used for bones, ligaments, and muscles... and why no mention has been made of humanity trying to reverse-engineer those substances for their own use.

[Darth Yan]

they did read it you numbnuts, and are pointing out that you're full of shit.

[Simon_Jester]

It's exactly the same as the way that many Chinese people can make a (well supported) claim to be male line descendants of Ghengis Khan. It doesn't mean anything, except as an interesting exercise in population genetics.

The truth is that countries joined in the order they started shooting and the council stopped growing with number 15.

Sucks to be #16. Who were they?

I deliberately made the Yamantau council an odd and jerrybuilt structure because most fictional stories always have a perfect solution arriving and being installed to the acclaim of all and life just isn't like that... Like most temporary solutions, it'll probably last for centuries. The political complications will be dealt with in the third book (although there's a little bit of finance coming up in Part 41).

Of course, even the 'designed' solutions can get messy. Giving France a seat on the UN Security Council may have seemed like a hot idea in 1945, but twenty or thirty years later it must have been getting obvious that they were NOT one of the world's first tier powers anymore.
________

Geneaology always seems really dodgy unless you have an unusual surname with a well-known history. I don't, but my wife Rebecca comes from the Mulcaster family line, and all Mulcasters are apparently descended from one guy named David De Mulcaster, who supposedly founded the entire family line in the 12th century, in the Muncaster region in England. It seems like it would be really difficult to assemble a complete history all the way back, though, and you always have to be suspicious of any family history which happens to conclude that you had a really important ancestor.

I always find such claims amusing not because I think they're false but because I think they're true of practically everyone; they're just impossible to document because most of them trace back to a child conceived by Insert Important Nobleman Here and the upstairs maid. Conversely, the documented claims are amusing because they ignore the probability that at least one of the children in the line was actually fathered by, say, some random royal guardsman. A probability which increases sharply as you go generation after generation back.

Of course, all that pales in comparison to the thing that's really hilarious: people who claim to be the reincarnation of famous people.
_______

So, how about that square-cube law? Something I've been wondering since near the beginning of this series, is what sort of materials the kaiju-sized demons used for bones, ligaments, and muscles... and why no mention has been made of humanity trying to reverse-engineer those substances for their own use.

Reverse engineering living tissue is tricky. I'd guesstimate that the 'flesh' of the really big demons has to be at least as strong as hardwood, because large trees are about the only organic objects that can handle that kind of weight. That helps to explain their surprising resistance to heavy artillery, too.

Likewise, the demons' bones and ligaments aren't necessarily stronger than artificial materials we already use: steel cable would do just fine for those purposes. They're just much stronger than the naturally evolved organic materials we see filling the same roles on Earth. Which makes them nice, and interesting if you're DuPont, but not all-important.

[DataPacRat]

they did read it you numbnuts, and are pointing out that you're full of shit.

This is my... 15th or so post here. Every post I've made so far is easily accessible at http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/search.php ... 7&sr=posts , the earliest at the bottom. But since even that seems like too much work for some people:

From my second post:

(I ask because, according to the genealogical records, I can trace a direct lineage back through a certain number of generations to Rhea herself; if those records can be trusted, she is no farther than being my 121st-great grandmother. Admittedly, that's a pretty big 'if', but in a setting like TSW, who knows?)

Note that I don't actually claim to be descended from Zeus; I say that /according to those records/, such a lineage exists, and I even say that those records probably can't be trusted.

From my third post:

According to certain genealogical records, my mothers' mothers' fathers's etc etc etc father is Zeus himself; he is my 120th-great grandfather. Zeus's mother is Rhea, so, by the records, she is my 121st-great grandmother. (I can dig up the whole line of descent if you really want...) Of course, that's just according to the records; in real life, I have strong doubts that either Zeus or Rhea ever existed, while in the Salvation War universe, it's possible that my doppleganger is /much/ more closely related to Rhea.

Again, I'm reporting on what the records say, not claiming that the records are true.

From my fourth post:

Charlemagne, who is said to descend from certain individuals from the Trojan War, who is said to be a descendant of Zeus.

Note the phrasing: /said to/ descend.

I could go on, but I hope that I've been able to demonstrate the pattern here.



So, back to TSW, how quickly do Nephilim powers get 'bred out'? Would there be a greater chance of finding them in a relatively closed society without much fresh blood being brought in from outsiders, the sort of groups that have tendencies towards various heritable diseases?

[JN1]

PS. Rebecca has a dream about visiting Muncaster in England one day, since it's theoretically her ancestral home. Hopefully it's not too disappointing; I'd hate to show up and see a bunch of shopping malls and McDonald's.

There's a Muncaster Castle in Cumbria near Ravenglass, which looks quite impressive from it's website, but I'm not aware of anywhere else called Muncaster in the UK. However I'm sure you may know better than me.

[Lagmonster]

Split from here.

It's too wierd to leave in the original thread, and frankly vastly off-topic.

[Einhander Sn0m4n]

Thank you Lagmonster, IOUABJ. Boring troll is boring!

[Knife]

Thank you Lagmonster, IOUABJ. Boring troll is boring!

IDK, I think you guys are being rather assholish myself. Lots of people with those silly charts have ridiculous things at the top of them, Jesus, Odin, Fraia, Arthur, and a couple semi-plausible but since everyone has them in there, stupid things like Charlemagne, [insert a Pope's name here], [insert a famous European King here] type shit. I don't' think this guy is saying he is actually some sort of hybrid human/god, rather just displaying his silly old chart his nana probably wrote up after earlier ones.

[Zac Naloen]

PS. Rebecca has a dream about visiting Muncaster in England one day, since it's theoretically her ancestral home. Hopefully it's not too disappointing; I'd hate to show up and see a bunch of shopping malls and McDonald's.

There's a Muncaster Castle in Cumbria near Ravenglass, which looks quite impressive from it's website, but I'm not aware of anywhere else called Muncaster in the UK. However I'm sure you may know better than me.

Yep, Muncaster is a very small village that happens to have a very nice castle and grounds.

I've not been there but it is in the lake district, which is a national park. I would be shocked to find anything but a stereotypical english village.

[Singular Quartet]

Thank you Lagmonster, IOUABJ. Boring troll is boring!

Umm... actually, you guys are the fucking trolls. Datapacrat brings up a fucking joke, and you lot all jump on him like he's speaking gospel truth. He fucking said three times the records are suspect. Fgalkin was the first person to give any grain of truth to the records he posts. HAs ever said "I honestly believe I am descended from Zeus"? No, he hasn't. He's fucking said "Well, according to some really suspect records, I'm descended from Zeus. Given we're talking about the existence of said gods, I think these might be kind of interesting for this discussion."

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

In theory, on my mother's side I'm supposedly descended from Barbarossa, while on my father's side the geneology is actually quite detailed and clear, the English bit going back to at least Cromwell's day (my father's maternal ancestry all seem to have a knack, nay, an obsession with proper bookkeeping - my grandmother has recorded every purchase she has made ever for going on half a century, and she's far from the most obsessed) and the Scottish bit, being, well, Scottish noblemen.

However, I have strong suspicions as to whether I'm related directly to Barbarossa or Duncan the Fat, let alone some direct imagined line back to Vespasian and Wotan.

[Ghost Rider]

Yeah, they are beating up on the fucking retard. Sorry, given that he didn't think ten seconds about being descended from a supposedly divine being? He deserves it. Next up, anyone with Japanese blood can claim their fave Japanese deity as their start, but no heckling gang....we really might have a semi divine being here!

[Darth Wong]

PS. Rebecca has a dream about visiting Muncaster in England one day, since it's theoretically her ancestral home. Hopefully it's not too disappointing; I'd hate to show up and see a bunch of shopping malls and McDonald's.

There's a Muncaster Castle in Cumbria near Ravenglass, which looks quite impressive from it's website, but I'm not aware of anywhere else called Muncaster in the UK. However I'm sure you may know better than me.

Yep, Muncaster is a very small village that happens to have a very nice castle and grounds.

I've not been there but it is in the lake district, which is a national park. I would be shocked to find anything but a stereotypical english village.

That's good to hear. Rebecca is really keen on visiting England someday, although we imagine it would be a pretty expensive vacation. We've been taking driving vacations lately because they're so much cheaper.

[DataPacRat]

Thank you Lagmonster, IOUABJ. Boring troll is boring!

Umm... actually, you guys are the fucking trolls. Datapacrat brings up a fucking joke, and you lot all jump on him like he's speaking gospel truth. He fucking said three times the records are suspect. Fgalkin was the first person to give any grain of truth to the records he posts. HAs ever said "I honestly believe I am descended from Zeus"? No, he hasn't. He's fucking said "Well, according to some really suspect records, I'm descended from Zeus. Given we're talking about the existence of said gods, I think these might be kind of interesting for this discussion."

Yay! Someone finally demonstrates they've read, and understood, what I actually wrote! :)

So... since this has now been put in its own thread, and we don't have to worry about cluttering up discussion about TSW with irrelevancies (not that there seemed to be /that/ much worry about that before), does anyone want to actually /discuss/ this topic, or would it be better to leave it to rest?

[Ghost Rider]

Thank you Lagmonster, IOUABJ. Boring troll is boring!

Umm... actually, you guys are the fucking trolls. Datapacrat brings up a fucking joke, and you lot all jump on him like he's speaking gospel truth. He fucking said three times the records are suspect. Fgalkin was the first person to give any grain of truth to the records he posts. HAs ever said "I honestly believe I am descended from Zeus"? No, he hasn't. He's fucking said "Well, according to some really suspect records, I'm descended from Zeus. Given we're talking about the existence of said gods, I think these might be kind of interesting for this discussion."

Yay! Someone finally demonstrates they've read, and understood, what I actually wrote!

So... since this has now been put in its own thread, and we don't have to worry about cluttering up discussion about TSW with irrelevancies (not that there seemed to be /that/ much worry about that before), does anyone want to actually /discuss/ this topic, or would it be better to leave it to rest?

And still it's fucking bad piece of fiction. I mean look at who you had before hand...and yes I did read the whole pile of drivel of claiming "It's sketchy". You couldn't be fucked to actually try to fill the holes better?

So yes, while they are beating you, you are still being retard on multiple areas, and the least is really claiming Chaos as your originator or do you prefer the singularity?

[Singular Quartet]

Yeah, they are beating up on the fucking retard. Sorry, given that he didn't think ten seconds about being descended from a supposedly divine being? He deserves it. Next up, anyone with Japanese blood can claim their fave Japanese deity as their start, but no heckling gang....we really might have a semi divine being here! :roll:

Or you could be a fucking retard who didn't actually read past his first post. He fucking states the records are suspect, and states he only uses it as a conversation starter. Holy shit, we're the people that are actually supposed to read somebody's posts, and yet nobody's actually fucking read them. Will you people quit being fucking retarded, and show some reading comprehension?

[DataPacRat]

So... since this has now been put in its own thread, and we don't have to worry about cluttering up discussion about TSW with irrelevancies (not that there seemed to be /that/ much worry about that before), does anyone want to actually /discuss/ this topic, or would it be better to leave it to rest?

And still it's fucking bad piece of fiction. I mean look at who you had before hand...and yes I did read the whole pile of drivel of claiming "It's sketchy". You couldn't be fucked to actually try to fill the holes better?

Um... and how would you suggest I 'fill the holes'? Make something up? Believe it or not, that descendency list is what certain seriously-presented genealogical records /actually say/.

So yes, while they are beating you, you are still being retard on multiple areas, and the least is really claiming Chaos as your originator or do you prefer the singularity?

I will, once again, point out that I haven't once "really claimed" Chaos as my ancestor. But, other than that, taking your question as if it were seriously asked...

According to Greek mythology, the familiar Olympian pantheon is mainly descended from the Titaness Rhea and her consort, whose parents are Gaia-the-Earth and Uranus-the-sky, the latter of whom is also Gaia-the-Earth's offspring, and Gaia herself is claimed to have spontaneously appeared out of the primeval ocean of Chaos. While there are a few parallels with other creation myths, such as the Genesis account and the Egyptian version of Earth and Sky arising out of their own version of the Chaos-ocean, I have found that the idea of an initial state of absolute randomness, out of which occasionally appear (relatively) self-sustaining bits of order, is as good an answer to "But where did the Big Bang come from?" as any other which I've heard.

[Serafina]

DataPacRat, if you want to survive here, learn the following lesson:

If you make a stupid claim, conceed that you are completly wrong and take your claim back.

You made an completly ridicuoulus claim - no one has genealogies that good, it does not really matter if you claim to be descendant from a king or a dirt farmer - you just can not trace it back that far.
But the fact that you claim that special decendance makes it look like you only seek attention - "hey, look, i am special!!"

Perhaps you got that "genealogy" from you parents and never questioned it. Perhaps you are just naive (which can be fixed) instead of stupid (which can't) or a attention-whore (which can, but is not worth the effort).

Just admit that you are completly wrong - it will actually make you look less stupid.

Regards
Fina