SD.Net World Redux Comment Thread X

[Bluewolf]

Germany or royalist Spain, maybe.

EDIT: I do however would like to make it clear at this point that I would only join the game as a player, not as a mod. Steve already does a good job on that, methinks and I do not think I have the time either. I'd be up to review a finalized point system for inaccuracies, but I will not write nor mod one.

Well lets take a look at the points system:

Imperium 20k posts
$5 trillion GDP (PPP)
1 million km^2 (suggested)
120 million population - (suggested,
1st world living standard)

3000 pts

Tsardom 5k posts
1/2 imperium
1500 pts

Kingdom 2.5k posts
1/2 tsardom
750 pts

Principality 1k posts
1/2 kingdom
$750 billion GDP (PPP)
420 pts

Duchy 50 posts or negative CT
1/2 principality
$400 billion GDP (PPP)

The Curve between a Imperium and a Ducy is staggering. If we went by the last 5 pages of the IC thread and took all posts counts; we'd get this:

1 Imperium
9 Tsardom
2 Kingdom
5 Principality
4 Duchy

There is a massive different there. A Duchy could not stand up to even to a Princpality very well. I am not saying to make things all even or that small countries are much weaker. I am saying that there is too much power between a high end country and a low end one and I'd surport trimming it at both ends, so to speak. We have can have big nations and small ones but there is no reason to give them such a massive difference like it is here.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I have been discussing this with Steve, and we figured one thing to do was to come up with a non-linear scale, probably a convex graph type.

However, we may want to consider either lowering the bar to form an Imperium, or increasing it altogether. Having more Imperiums than Tsardoms and even Kingdoms made the current game very lobsided.

[Ryan Thunder]

Having more Imperiums than Tsardoms and even Kingdoms made the current game very lobsided.

^^ This.

What if we made it random somehow?

[Bluewolf]

Making it random, in some peoples minds would probably make sure the same old people did not get into the same old postions again but frankly, imo there is little point. We are addressing the whole alliance on one continent thing, we are going to flatten the curve a bit and due to the abence on nukes, it'll be a lot less last game with the whole stalemate.

If you fear your Custom Title dragging you down again, well, do we even need that restriction anymore? I don't really mind if we go either way on it but I don't think the Custom Title restriction is really required. If we give any player restrictions, it should be on their Roleplaying, behaviour in said game. Its up to you guys though. I just never saw much point in it unless the said player was a total dick in RP.

[Steve]

Some have talked about getting rid of Imperiums completely, though that would just result in a lot of Tsardoms.

Ironically we only have had two players who actually meet Imperium post count - Shep and Skimmer. Every other Imperium is such because they are Tsardom count with a modship or senate seat.

One possibility is to limit the game to just two or three Imperiums and to elect trusted players to run those countries, people who we know won't be dicks with their power. Then everyone else can play the equivalent of Tsardoms and Kingdoms, or rather, Major Powers and Minor Powers (UK or France in the first place, Belgium and Spain in the second).

There is also the question of how regimented the country generation will be this time. I know a couple people are feverishly at work on a system that goes beyond just size of forces and sophistication, but also determines things like amount of national territory, colonial territory, industrial capacity, population, perhaps even where one sits on Democracy to Authoritarianism (acting as a "belligerency limit"), though I'm uncertain on that last item since I think we players should have complete freedom to determine what kind of government we want. It looks like a nice, streamlined system, easy to use, though I am uncertain of how number-crunchy players are willing to get and how much creative freedom they're willing to sacrifice.

Does anyone have further suggestions?

[Shinn Langley Soryu]

Some have talked about getting rid of Imperiums completely, though that would just result in a lot of Tsardoms.

Ironically we only have had two players who actually meet Imperium post count - Shep and Skimmer. Every other Imperium is such because they are Tsardom count with a modship or senate seat.

One possibility is to limit the game to just two or three Imperiums and to elect trusted players to run those countries, people who we know won't be dicks with their power. Then everyone else can play the equivalent of Tsardoms and Kingdoms, or rather, Major Powers and Minor Powers (UK or France in the first place, Belgium and Spain in the second).

-snip stuff about country generation-

Does anyone have further suggestions?

My own pet idea is to eliminate both Duchies and Imperiums entirely and readjust the entry requirements and point allocations for Principalities, Kingdoms, and Tsardoms accordingly. Instead of just elevating moderators and senators to the next power level, they could be given 50% more points to spend than they would normally.

A Rough Plan for Country Organization
Major Power ("Tsardom") - 10000+ posts, 2000 points (3000 for mods and senators)
Medium Power ("Kingdom") - 5000-9999 posts, 1000 points (1500 for mods and senators)
Minor Power ("Principality") - 50-4999 posts or negative CT, 500 points (750 for mods and senators)

In any case, number-crunching should be secondary to creative freedom.

[Beowulf]

My own pet idea is to eliminate both Duchies and Imperiums entirely and readjust the entry requirements and point allocations for Principalities, Kingdoms, and Tsardoms accordingly. Instead of just elevating moderators and senators to the next power level, they could be given 50% more points to spend than they would normally.

A Rough Plan for Country Organization
Major Power ("Tsardom") - 10000+ posts, 2000 points (3000 for mods and senators)
Medium Power ("Kingdom") - 5000-9999 posts, 1000 points (1500 for mods and senators)
Minor Power ("Principality") - 50-4999 posts or negative CT, 500 points (750 for mods and senators)

In any case, number-crunching should be secondary to creative freedom.

Great, except that as stated earlier, the only two natural imperiums were Shep and Sea Skimmer, who most players probably don't want to see as Imperiums again. Another idea would be to elect the great powers, and have the major and regional powers be determined by post count, with minor powers being exclusively NPCs that we can beat up. I'd also hesitate to assign point values until we know what the points actually mean. Which if my suggestion of ship costs being based on tonnage (with some modifiers for stuff like armed merchant cruisers and the like) really means determining how much aircraft and army cost.

[Bluewolf]

Again, I still see no reason why we need Negative CT restrictions nor do I see why Senators should get promoted for free. As I have stated to Steve, any bonus or restriction we do, do should be on the merits of how well the RPer has behaved in previous STGOD's (if any) and how skilled they are. A person with a VI can be a fantastic RPer while a Senator can be an awful one. I see no reason why what basically amounts to forum politics, should be included into this. I know my examplres are rare but my point still stands.

Anyway I am not going to delve into points systems but how about this:

Major Power: 5001-10,000
Medium Power: 1001-5000
Minor Power: 0-1000

The points curve could be a more flat curve to make up for the difference in power as said.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

At this rate, we might as well go with the good o' Bell curve and curve everyone into the academic grades.

Another thing though, why should senators or mods get more points than the rest?

[Ryan Thunder]

I believe the assumption was that they'll be less likely to be dicks with their countries, and that people with negative CTs were more likely to be dicks with their countries.

I think that, with World Redux as evidence, we can put those misconceptions to rest, now.

[RogueIce]

Another thing though, why should senators or mods get more points than the rest?

That was pretty much a legacy from the original RAR thread. Granted it wasn't an automatic level increase like how it was used here, but originally any Supermod/Admin, regardless of post count, got to be an Imperium. Any Mod (and Senator, or did it predate that?) got to be a Tsardom, regardless of post count. And anyone with a negative CT got to be a Duchy, regardless of post count.

So the Redux version was a bit more 'fair' (in that it only bumped you up or down a single level, depending on criteria) rather than gifting (or forcing) a set power level on you. As for why it originally existed, you'd have to ask Zor. It was his idea.

Anyway, a somewhat flattened power curve isn't a bad idea. But we should then be limited to whatever the levels are by some objective measure, post count being the popular one. Frankly I see the 'electing Great Powers' think to simply be a prelude to disaster, with it turning quickly into a popularity contest and/or rehashing old grudges and the like. Frankly I think any version three just needs a clean break from the accumulated crap and bad feelings from the past two games.

[Siege]

Another idea would be to elect the great powers, and have the major and regional powers be determined by post count, with minor powers being exclusively NPCs that we can beat up.

This strikes me as the best idea so far. If we're setting this in the 1900s/1930s arguably there's a lot of room for more or less local powers and conflicts on every continent. Even a regional power would be something the Great Powers would have to take seriously because force projection isn't a case of sending a bunch of bombers over from the other side of the world to level their crap in that timeframe. Sending fleets and armies around the world is really expensive and time-consuming.

[Master_Baerne]

Alternatively, we could have the Great and Underfed Powers be NPCs, with the Middle and Major ones being player nations. It'd do us all good to have to steer clear of someone, for once.

[Czechmate]

Alternatively, we could have the Great and Underfed Powers be NPCs, with the Middle and Major ones being player nations. It'd do us all good to have to steer clear of someone, for once.

One of the rulesets being worked on has the majority of players as Major powers (of varying sizes, it's an incredibly flexible ruleset - you could be the equivalent of britain, belgium, germany, america, russia, it's all your choice) and a handful of them (and possibly a couple Bigbad NPCs) as voted-for Great powers, and the rest (Regional and Minor) as NPCs, which sounds like something you and others might like.

EDIT: I lied a leetle - NPCs will actually come in all four forms

[Master_Baerne]

I'm aware of that. I was, in a half-joking manner, suggesting that perhaps it'd be interesting if the players weren't the biggest fish in the pond.

[Czechmate]

I'm aware of that. I was, in a half-joking manner, suggesting that perhaps it'd be interesting if the players weren't the biggest fish in the pond.

As you like.

[CmdrWilkens]

Another idea would be to elect the great powers, and have the major and regional powers be determined by post count, with minor powers being exclusively NPCs that we can beat up.

This strikes me as the best idea so far. If we're setting this in the 1900s/1930s arguably there's a lot of room for more or less local powers and conflicts on every continent. Even a regional power would be something the Great Powers would have to take seriously because force projection isn't a case of sending a bunch of bombers over from the other side of the world to level their crap in that timeframe. Sending fleets and armies around the world is really expensive and time-consuming.

On that same thought we could have NPCs be all the great powers and then all of us as regional or local powers trying to care out a place in the world.

[Siege]

On that same thought we could have NPCs be all the great powers and then all of us as regional or local powers trying to care out a place in the world.

Whilst I'm not necessarily opposed to this idea it does beg the question: who will be running these NPCs, then?

[Steve]

I'd prefer either one or two "Great Powers" for trusted players or none at all, since an NPC Great Power still has to be controlled. Instead the players' countries would be the world powers and we'd have no Superpowers around.

I do think Czech's idea of a leveled world where everyone has the same potential, though invested as they see fit, could make for an interesting game. But everyone has to be powerful enough, then, that we can fairly enjoy the game instead of bogging down from being too weak to effectively do things.

Though having a weaker tier for new, inexperienced players who have no reputation to ensure they won't be disruptions can be an open issue to determine.

[Siege]

To be honest I think the different degrees of power - frustrating as though it sometimes was - were a large part of the charm of the game, and doing away with that would be a mistake. Of course levelling the playing field somewhat is a great idea that I wholly support, and there is merit in the idea of letting people specialize their countries to a limited degree, but still.

[DarthShady]

Goddamn Internet memes... *grumbles*

I would suggest we get a mod council, instead of just Steve, for the new game. That will make things easier and we can avoid having Steve bear the burden alone.

Though having a weaker tier for new, inexperienced players who have no reputation to ensure they won't be disruptions can be an open issue to determine.

And what about asshole players?

[Ryan Thunder]

Though having a weaker tier for new, inexperienced players who have no reputation to ensure they won't be disruptions can be an open issue to determine.

And what about asshole players?

Too subjective, aside from Shep. I mean, I'd put half the MESS under that category, but I'm sure most of you would disagree with that assessment.

[Shroom Man 777]

Vote me for Imperium.

[Bluewolf]

I would not mind it being picked out of a hat. In my opinion it;d be totally random then.

[RogueIce]

I'd prefer either one or two "Great Powers" for trusted players or none at all, since an NPC Great Power still has to be controlled. Instead the players' countries would be the world powers and we'd have no Superpowers around.

Well you could have more than one mod, and then actions of NPC nations are decided by consensus of the others. Which boils down to, Mod A gets idea and sends PM, Mods B and C have to either approve/disapprove.

I do think Czech's idea of a leveled world where everyone has the same potential, though invested as they see fit, could make for an interesting game. But everyone has to be powerful enough, then, that we can fairly enjoy the game instead of bogging down from being too weak to effectively do things.

In that instance we'd have to have a good idea of how many people are playing beforehand, so that it can be tailored enough to fit. It wouldn't do to have 30 Britains running around. Or even 10 US types, given the potential they'd have (even if we mandated the 'weak, isolationist' US at start).

Though having a weaker tier for new, inexperienced players who have no reputation to ensure they won't be disruptions can be an open issue to determine.

Two tiers, one for veterans and one for rookies? That's a possibility.

Personally, I like the NPC Great Powers because it gives the mods an in-game tool to deal with players being too bad. If somebody is causing too much trouble or behaving far too unrealistic, one of the NPC Great Powers can up and decide that their new sphere of influence is whevere the troublemaker is causing problems. Alternatively, if the game is lagging a bit the mod controlled NPC Great Power can stir up some trouble to spice things up a little.

For instance, with some mod controlled Great Powers, they could kick off a World War II even if everyone else is being too lazy to do so. Say we have three GPs, and two face off, then the players decide who goes with who, based on how their factions are governed, foreign policy, etc. Then the third GP might come in later, on whichever side the mods see fit: either to help end the war by joining the winning side, or to boost up the losing side to keep it interesting.