Ultramarines the Movie

[Shroom Man 777]

I was responding to the allegations that the Ultrasmurfs were "bland" and "characterless". I'm actually agreeing with you (and FROD) in that Ultrasmurfs are "a cut above most of the other 'canon' Marine chapters" because "GW bothered to develop them without imposing any weird traits that turn them into caricatures". Because that is very true.

Brothers of the Snake, a very characterful and enjoyable book, was totally about an Ultrasmurfs-descended chapter whose only major difference is that they liked sticks and went Leonidas on Orks (which was rather dumb... their campaign against the Orks in which the Snakes got massive casualties because the majority of their combat composed of phalanx shit, as opposed to chucking in air support...) and that their rites of passage included harpooning Loch Ness monsters while they were having giant sea monster orgies. Aside from that, they didn't suffer from Black Rages or Green Gonorrheas or Red Leprosies, nor did they have some "compelling" sideplot that goes nowhere involving some shmuck named Lex Luthor and some sword and some El Johnny the Lioness and other "woah cool" treacherous stuff.

But I agree with this statement the most, actually:

I'll wait for a movie not about humorless, fanatical monks with as much room for character development as a man in an iron-maiden. Yes, yes, the Astartes are the iconic 40K warriors but they are dull. Of course they're not built for personality and witticisms. I'll wait for the actually human Imperial Guard. Mr I.Gaunt and C.Cain would be far more interesting.

A Ciaphas Cain series in the visual format would be awesome because not only is there action, but there's also awesome funnies and because the Cain series actually provides for a very nice depiction of the greater 40k verse - likewise with the Gaunt stories and the Eisenhorns. As opposed to the "RARGH! KILL! GRIMDRAKSTRAK AWESOMEMURDERFUCKERRRRS!" that composes normal 40k stuff. When the Space Marines run out of bullets to kill the orks/chaos/undead-robot-zombie-vampire-skeletons-from-space, they shall resort to unarmored and unclothed hand-to-hand combat where their superhuman physiologies allow them to excrete bodily secretions at lethal velocities!

When I read Let the Galaxy Burn the first two awesome Space Marine shorts I read had awesome "character conflict" because of the compelling challenges that a Marine squad had in performing a dumb and simple tactical retreat, because the Marines (Black Templars) really wanted to charge the Chaos dudes head on with their swords. Wow. The second one was another compelling work that had the grave ordeals of this Dark Angel shmuck whose great ordeal was interrogating some fallen corrupted Dark Angel for the location of some... magic cursed sword... but in the end it was all a trick and the Dark Angel shmuck fell on it because of "hurr grimdrakstrak!"

Profoundly meh.


But I am not opposed to the concept of big armored muscle men killing things with explosions and chainsaw-sticks, especially if those things are obscenities like super-steroidified uruk-hai with gatling guns and rock-n-roll gear, or undead robot zombie vampire skeletons from space, or something as fun as that.

[white_rabbit]

I only ask that we don't get any of Graham Mcneils ultramarines characters thrown into the film.

Or any other authors stuff actually, new story please, and no major plot points of 40k history attempted in 70 minutes.

Pointless angst about following the rules of the Codex, and aggravating waste of 40 minutes of screen time on following our hero's PG-13 trials as he becomes a space marine should be avoided as well.

If this ends up anything like the CGI stuff we've had before, it'll be pretty, it'll be shiny, and it'll get torn apart by nerd fans for all the stuff it doesn't have, didn't get right, and didn't do according to their personal rulebook.

[Juubi Karakuchi]

In one sense it's no surprise that they're using Space Marines, since they are the most popular army by far. This will guarantee as large an audience as possible, thus getting more feedback. The more positive feedback they get, the more likely they are to make more of these movies, and on a wider variety of subjects. This seems to be the way the audiobooks are going. If the audiobooks are anything to go by, the movie will be a fairly small-scale, self-contained storyline, adhering to unity of time and setting. There probably won't be much background (just as they could never hope to fit all of Tolkein's background material into the Lord of the Rings movie trilogy).

It's difficult to say how much of a financial risk this movie represents, since animation allows for significantly reduced costs and complications. It also allows near-complete control of the content (no full-of-himself director to ruin it). On the other hand, it still won't be cheap (not if its anything like what was seen in the Dawn-of-War games). I, for one, seriously hope this works out.

[Peptuck]

A Ciaphas Cain series in the visual format would be awesome because not only is there action, but there's also awesome funnies and because the Cain series actually provides for a very nice depiction of the greater 40k verse - likewise with the Gaunt stories and the Eisenhorns.

Actually, an Eisenhorn-ish 40k detective-style story would be awesome for a film. I really liked the Eisenhorn books if only for the great look at the civilian world of 40k.

[Shroom Man 777]

Very much so, Dan Abnett really did awesome in that story's depictions of Imperial society. The sights, the sounds, and all the horrible things he had happened. Man.

[Darth Fanboy]

Scrap this movie and focus on the Word Bearers instead and we'll get some much better visuals methinks.

[Bluewolf]

If you want a fun Chapter with some dimension beyond "Rawr CHAPTER HONOUR" then the Space Wolves are not a bad choice. They even had stood up against the Inqusition before (though many chapters are not typically fond of them anyway).

Anyway I hope this film turns out well, whatever angle they were aiming at with it. If it is anything like what some hope it to be, it should be good.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Imperial Fists?

Even though the Ultramarines are supposed to be the stereotypical cookie cutter good guys, they also have a whole Roman vibe where they are as much statesmen as warriors and play mentor to half the chapters in the Imperium.

The Fists seem rather memorable to me, although that may be because I think of them in the Ian Watson context. Its also possible they seem "bland" because ultimately they are the two Chapters that stand foremost as bastions of order and civilization (moreso the Ultramarines but still). Civilization is at its heart nothing more than bland, boring, and dull.

How is that anywhere near as one-note and boring as, say, the Blood Angels ("lol vampire marines") or the Dark Angels ("lol asshole marines")?

I actually like the Blood Angels at least circa 2nd because they blend the right about of grimness/bleankess with the right amoutn of positive and hopefulness. They're also some of the least dickish chapters. And I wouldn't say the Dark Angels are the biggest asshole Marines. The Iron Hands (from the novel of the same name) could compete, as could may Chapters that show up in the Soul Drinkers novels (including the Soul Drinkers themselves. Sarpedon seems to have done more to harm the Imperium singlehanded than Abbadon has done in all of his Black Crusades.)

I'll wait for a movie not about humorless, fanatical monks with as much room for character development as a man in an iron-maiden. Yes, yes, the Astartes are the iconic 40K warriors but they are dull. Of course they're not built for personality and witticisms.

The Bill King Space Wolf novels would say otherwise. Ragnar is perhaps, IMHO, one of the best written and well balanced Space Marine characters out there.

Of course I could be biased having read a few books starring the Marines (Space Marine, Iron Hands, Horus Rising) and I couldn't care less about the main characters given that they had all the personality of an inch high plastic figure. I also read some of Blood Ravens but am not counting it against the Marines because it was unreadable.

There were retarded things in Space Marine, but it was an interesting read nonetheless, and laot of the elements of the Fists there crop up in the Inquisition War novels anyhow. I havent read Horus Rising, but with Iron hands: Are you referring to Gdolkin, or the Iron Hands in general? Green pretty much wrote them to be grim, hard unlikable dicks. In Gdolkin's case he's unlikable because he combines a Techmarine and a Chaplain: two fo the most grim, zealous and inhuman members of most Chapters you could possibly conceive of - with the added benefit of the Chaplain having the religious intolerance and the Techmarine Admech dickishness.

[Connor MacLeod]

How about 'every licenced exploitation movie has sucked'? I agree with you, frankly; movies like this should focus on story no more than movies like Predator, with the focus on imagery and dakka. But the movies that go that direction these days seem to turn into unpolished shit, and movies that try to have a TEH IMPORTANT STORAY turn into Doom.

I think it depends on what kind of plot element you do. Some could work even with minimal plot. One of my favorite stories from "Hereos of the Space Marines" (as Academia Nut noted) centered around the Crimson fists coming to a planet being overrun by Orks in order to retrieve some of their scouts. Basically the Fists are complete dicks to this point and are prepared to abandon the planet to achieve their goals until the very end. It had an interesting ending that basically played off the arrogance of the chapter (The importance of Marines and their honour) versus their duty to the Imperium (defending humans and humanity from the threats of the galaxy.) Likewise, the short stories Shroom mentioned iwth the Black Templars are another good example.

That said I wouldn't trust them to be able to pull that off. I'm virtually certain that with Space Marines the temptation will be to simply turn it into a Big Dumb Action Movie, and so plot should be as minimal as possible. Then again that opens another possibility - if you aren' going to be serious, then you can certainly embrace absurd, and 40K has always had a fair dose of absurdity. Space Wolves would, as many said, probably be the best choice for that. Although Blood Angels might not be bad either.

I was responding to the allegations that the Ultrasmurfs were "bland" and "characterless". I'm actually agreeing with you (and FROD) in that Ultrasmurfs are "a cut above most of the other 'canon' Marine chapters" because "GW bothered to develop them without imposing any weird traits that turn them into caricatures". Because that is very true.

i don't know if "negative trait" automatically makes them a bad thing. A bit of tragedy isn't a bad thing so long as they have something to balance it out (EG 2nd ed Blood Angels). Space wolves have a similar negative trait and yet still manage to avoid being bad despite being a caricature (again Bill King's novels tend to have a lil bit of everything even romance.) Problem is, 40K hasn't always maintained that balance (and so yeah you do get what you describe, like with the Dark Angels.) I blame the grimdark.

Brothers of the Snake, a very characterful and enjoyable book, was totally about an Ultrasmurfs-descended chapter whose only major difference is that they liked sticks and went Leonidas on Orks (which was rather dumb... their campaign against the Orks in which the Snakes got massive casualties because the majority of their combat composed of phalanx shit, as opposed to chucking in air support...) and that their rites of passage included harpooning Loch Ness monsters while they were having giant sea monster orgies.

Ugh I tried to ignore the 300 parallels. Still, I liked BOTS chiefly because of that kickass Librarian and the Dreadnought at the end. IT was also rather hilarious to see the Dark Eldar get so completely shafted. Man those guys never get a break in the novels. Ever.

When I read Let the Galaxy Burn the first two awesome Space Marine shorts I read had awesome "character conflict" because of the compelling challenges that a Marine squad had in performing a dumb and simple tactical retreat, because the Marines (Black Templars) really wanted to charge the Chaos dudes head on with their swords.

[/quote]

I remember The Black templar one - good choice. Even more surprising about that one was it was written by Ben Counter, the dude who wrote the Soul Drinkers novels (and also the source of some of the most dickish Chapters to exist this side of the Dark Angels.)

As far as the Dark Angels.. I'm of two minds about them. Some stories do give them some optimistic sides (Angels of Darkness was rather good for that IMHO) but obviously they are often complete and total assholes. I tend to place the blame for that on the Deathwing though - they're the ones obsesing ove the Fallen and their "lost honor" and they drag the entire Chapter around on this.

[Shroom Man 777]

In the case of Let the Galaxy Burn's first two Space Marine stories, I was actually using the word "awesome" facetiously.

I even said that they were:

Profoundly meh.

Though yeah, since I was being my usual Shroom, maybe my post wasn't that coherent...

One of the things I loved about the Eisenhorn and Cain books is their perspective on the entire 40k verse, where it's not entirely grimdrak with superhuman killing machines. Hell, even the superhuman killing machines AREN'T entirely grimdrak and nor are they entirely superhuman killing machines. In Cain, we see TechPriests who like snackfood, we see an Administratum guy secretly playing poker and having sex with this Soritas instructor, we see a Lord General of the Imperial Guard being a genial and considerable and rather caring fellow who likes treating people to food, we see Inquisitors like AMBERLEY-CHAAAN! ^______^

One of the things that also struck me in the first Eisenhorn book was that one of those freaking Deathwatch Space Marines rented by the Inquisition was actually pretty much an okay and alright guy. He chatted with Eisenhorn, he scribbled notes on a tiny piece of paper with a tiny pencil that looked tiny in comparison to his HUEG Space Marine physique, he liked Eisenhorn and handed him a nifty gun, and he was a cool "ordinary" dude. The super-killy Space Marine working for the goddamn Inquisition was actually portrayed like a real person.

That's one of the problems I've got with stuff like the Blood Angels. Red Leprosies, ritualistically drinking the blood of all their foes. Feh. How on Earth do we make sympathetic, or at least relatable, or at least likeable characters out of that? Oh, we have Mephistons and Baals and Lords of Death with iron masks and lightning claws and awesome psychic powers! Meh.

Even the Black Templars. Most Marines are either freakishly nutso (Angels, Chaos Space Marines) or are so preoccupied with being badass superhuman soldiers readying for war all the time that they're devoid of any other characterization! To the point where performing a simple common-sense tactical retreat becomes an 'epic' 'character conflict' because they've become so one dimensional that simple "attack!" and "retreat!" become crucial characterization.

At least the Space Wolves, despite having fangs and lots of body hair, they like getting drunk and doing all sorts of awesome feats of bar-brawling and adventuring and dickering. That makes them likeable, and that kind of makes them normal.

[Connor MacLeod]

In the case of Let the Galaxy Burn's first two Space Marine stories, I was actually using the word "awesome" facetiously.

I even said that they were:

Profoundly meh.

Though yeah, since I was being my usual Shroom, maybe my post wasn't that coherent...

Or I just misread it. Its been known to happen. No biggie either way. I still think they were pretty bad (but then after having read Ben Counter's Soul Drinkers anything he writes that doesnt smack of Soul Drinkers would be good.)

One of the things I loved about the Eisenhorn and Cain books is their perspective on the entire 40k verse, where it's not entirely grimdrak with superhuman killing machines. Hell, even the superhuman killing machines AREN'T entirely grimdrak and nor are they entirely superhuman killing machines. In Cain, we see TechPriests who like snackfood, we see an Administratum guy secretly playing poker and having sex with this Soritas instructor, we see a Lord General of the Imperial Guard being a genial and considerable and rather caring fellow who likes treating people to food, we see Inquisitors like AMBERLEY-CHAAAN! ^______^

Have you tried Sandy Mitchell's Dark Heresy novels? They're not so lighthearted as the Cain novles but they aren't really "grimdark" either. I rather liked the characters (esp the teenaged redemptionist chick who has a thing for the former Arbites dude)

I suppose alot of it depends on your view of "grimdark" but not many novels are all that grimdark (at least no better or worse than you get in a Ghosts novel). If you like lighthearted you'd probably like the Kal Jerico novels (Necromunda underhive) but he's a bounty hunter with peculiar partners, no actual plans most of the time, and a tendency towards drinking and whoring.

One of the things that also struck me in the first Eisenhorn book was that one of those freaking Deathwatch Space Marines rented by the Inquisition was actually pretty much an okay and alright guy. He chatted with Eisenhorn, he scribbled notes on a tiny piece of paper with a tiny pencil that looked tiny in comparison to his HUEG Space Marine physique, he liked Eisenhorn and handed him a nifty gun, and he was a cool "ordinary" dude. The super-killy Space Marine working for the goddamn Inquisition was actually portrayed like a real person.

Space Marines vary massively in character and quality depending on the writer. Some authors seem ot hate Space Marines or write them either as assholes or mary sues, but some are alright. If you want a novel about a half decent chapter that gives a shit about people check out Salamander (there's passages where the Salamanders go through their ship trying to rescue the Chapter Serfs.) I always liked Bill King's view on Space Marines. As you say, they're Space Marines but they have human qualities as well.

That's one of the problems I've got with stuff like the Blood Angels. Red Leprosies, ritualistically drinking the blood of all their foes. Feh. How on Earth do we make sympathetic, or at least relatable, or at least likeable characters out of that? Oh, we have Mephistons and Baals and Lords of Death with iron masks and lightning claws and awesome psychic powers! Meh.

From what I've read about the Blood angels (which I'm doing more of, but is still slow) its not neccesarily the Blood angels with the blood rituals. That would be more like spinoff Chapters like the Blood Drinkers or flesh tearers (who eat flesh, I would guess) The whole blood drinking thing is supposed to be (or at least was circa 2nd) something that was considered a "dark" part of their nature and something to overcome (I think its tied to that Rage stuff.) As for Mephiston, the thing I really note about him is he stands as a bit of optimism for the Chapter.. a sign of hope they can overcome their flaws and still be noble. Think what you will about that, I find it rather nice. It would be even NICER if they played it up more but.. for GW to even give you a bit of positive is probably heretical somewhere.

Even the Black Templars. Most Marines are either freakishly nutso (Angels, Chaos Space Marines) or are so preoccupied with being badass superhuman soldiers readying for war all the time that they're devoid of any other characterization! To the point where performing a simple common-sense tactical retreat becomes an 'epic' 'character conflict' because they've become so one dimensional that simple "attack!" and "retreat!" become crucial characterization.

Alot of that depends on the Chapter and the writer again, I said. Black Templars pretty much ARE militant because thats what they do - they're a crusading Chapter and they always fight. At this point they're more than likley more like a small legion than anything else. They also dont have librarians (But they have divinely inspired champions.) They're basically Generic Christian Crusaders in SPAAAAACE. As far as BT go, I like the Jonathan Green "Armageddon" characterizations more anyhow.. alot of what you are complaining about can largely be attributed to Ben Counter, I think.

At least the Space Wolves, despite having fangs and lots of body hair, they like getting drunk and doing all sorts of awesome feats of bar-brawling and adventuring and dickering. That makes them likeable, and that kind of makes them normal.

Thats one reaosn I rather liked Ian WAtson's depiction of the Fists. Sure they had sadomasochistic qualities, there were deliberately absurd elements (CF the toilet confessional) and so on, but they had plenty of human like qualities too (like the Space Wolves, they would drink and feast, their duels were handled peculiarly) and there was the scrimshawing and the "Thinkers" marines aspect..) but nowadays I'm not sure how canonical that will be. Hopefully somehwat since the Inquisition War novels are still valid (so far).

[Simon_Jester]

One of the things I loved about the Eisenhorn and Cain books is their perspective on the entire 40k verse, where it's not entirely grimdrak with superhuman killing machines. Hell, even the superhuman killing machines AREN'T entirely grimdrak and nor are they entirely superhuman killing machines.

Questionable; Cain's impressions of the Space Marines make them out to be pretty grim and dark, while everyone else is a merely human killing machine. Hence the "merely human" stuff like genial Lord Generals, Sororitas instructors who remembered that the "bolter nuns" never actually swore a vow of chastity, and so on.

At least the Space Wolves, despite having fangs and lots of body hair, they like getting drunk and doing all sorts of awesome feats of bar-brawling and adventuring and dickering. That makes them likeable, and that kind of makes them normal.

I think it helps that the guy who wrote (at least the first few) Space Wolf novels played fast and loose with the whole "AND THEY SHALL KNOW NO FEAR!" aspect. When you think about it, any supersoldier who's so brainwashed that they are literally incapable of feeling fear has to be pretty inhuman. And since most authors aren't up to doing in depth characterizations of inhuman characters, that screws over any attempt to upgrade Space Marines to two or three dimensions from the beginning.

But by writing Space Wolves as being less indoctrinated and monkish, King gave himself freedom to invoke the same emotions that real people who spend most of their time being badasses would feel: tightly controlled fear, intense group bonding, the constant tension between maintaining discipline and blowing off steam in the time between fights.

The only catch being that somewhere out there there's a 40k geek screaming that Ragnar Blackmane shouldn't be feeling those little flickers of fear or noticing that Hot Inquisitor Lady is hot. Which is stupid, but what can you do?

[Shroom Man 777]

Or I just misread it. Its been known to happen. No biggie either way. I still think they were pretty bad (but then after having read Ben Counter's Soul Drinkers anything he writes that doesnt smack of Soul Drinkers would be good.)

How bad are the Soul Drinker books?

Have you tried Sandy Mitchell's Dark Heresy novels? They're not so lighthearted as the Cain novles but they aren't really "grimdark" either. I rather liked the characters (esp the teenaged redemptionist chick who has a thing for the former Arbites dude)

I too rather liked the teenaged Redemptionist fundamentalist IMPERIAL ASSASSIN chick who wears red panties who has a thing for the former Arbites dude! And that Guardsman who also thinks said chick is hot and kind of sort of (very obviously!) fancies her and gets along with her nicely, forming an awesome thing for the first time ever in 40k... A LOVE TRIANGLE!

It also helps that said Guardsman becomes an awesome character with a Dirty Harry esque revolver-hand cannon and with awesome lines. Like "I hope they got those little cheese things with sticks!" and getting to do shit like kill daemons with a sanctified lasgun!

(I did not know that TechPriests were also qualified to sanctify weapons against Chaos daemons. I thought only the Ecclesiarchy dudes could do that.)

Has there been a sequel to the first Sandy Mitchell Dark Heresy novel? I so want to see the continuation and further development of that LOVE TRIANGLE!

I suppose alot of it depends on your view of "grimdark" but not many novels are all that grimdark (at least no better or worse than you get in a Ghosts novel). If you like lighthearted you'd probably like the Kal Jerico novels (Necromunda underhive) but he's a bounty hunter with peculiar partners, no actual plans most of the time, and a tendency towards drinking and whoring.

WHORES!

I got a Kal Jericho comic and it was pretty fun. I also liked DEFF SQUADRON! Goddamn, Orkz in FIGHTA BOMAS! KATCH THE SQUIGEON!

The grimdark is probably not all that grimdark. It's probably just because of - as you said - shit writers. You know, shit writers who are so shit that the only thing they fixate on in 40k to the point of exclusivity is just the "grim darkness of the far future there is only war" shtick. As in, "there is only war" in the whole thing they write. Which is total shit. It's like how in the Star Wars EU, the only thing the authors also write about are Han Solo and Luke Skywalker's and Chewbacca's buddy cop swashbuckling space adventures until they're all geriatric and Han Solo has to dash around dashingly with a walker or a wheelchair while Luke Skywalker has to shit out through a colostomy bag since a Sith Lord stabbed a lightsaber through his colon, and a moon falls on Chewbacca or something. Or the Mangdalorians.

They just fixate on something, one particularly "cool" shtick that after a short while grows old and lame. Whereas real good authors are able to make more "multifaceted" literature.

Dan Abnett, for example, puts as much effort in writing his war scenes as he does in describing the wonders and sights and spectacles of the various worlds of 40k.

Space Marines vary massively in character and quality depending on the writer. Some authors seem ot hate Space Marines or write them either as assholes or mary sues, but some are alright. If you want a novel about a half decent chapter that gives a shit about people check out Salamander (there's passages where the Salamanders go through their ship trying to rescue the Chapter Serfs.) I always liked Bill King's view on Space Marines. As you say, they're Space Marines but they have human qualities as well.

Yeah. That's what I liked in particular about the very short scenes with Space Marines in the Eisenhorn books. They're not just some hyperthyroid superhuman killing machines, but each one of them is a goddamn hero. Like that one Marine who sacrificed himself by jumping into an explosion and saving Eisenhorn and his retinue's lives. Or, not even the Marines, but the Kasrkins who started stabbing a goddamn daemonhosts. Abnett didn't cum himself by just describing these superhuman acts, but he wrote about how these were heroic deeds and that the Marines/Kasrkins were saving people or doing an actual-factual noble deed.

From what I've read about the Blood angels (which I'm doing more of, but is still slow) its not neccesarily the Blood angels with the blood rituals. That would be more like spinoff Chapters like the Blood Drinkers or flesh tearers (who eat flesh, I would guess) The whole blood drinking thing is supposed to be (or at least was circa 2nd) something that was considered a "dark" part of their nature and something to overcome (I think its tied to that Rage stuff.) As for Mephiston, the thing I really note about him is he stands as a bit of optimism for the Chapter.. a sign of hope they can overcome their flaws and still be noble. Think what you will about that, I find it rather nice. It would be even NICER if they played it up more but.. for GW to even give you a bit of positive is probably heretical somewhere.

Mmm... I've not had much exposure to the Blood Angels, actually. But just from the impressions they gave me, they seemed very much like the stereotypically bad Space Marine Chapter Done Wrong.

This is why I very much avoid a whole lot of the Space Marine stories that feature, well, the more... 'ehhh' Marines. I considered getting that Soul Drinkers omnibus, as it was available in my local bookstore, but I decided to ignore it.

Alot of that depends on the Chapter and the writer again, I said. Black Templars pretty much ARE militant because thats what they do - they're a crusading Chapter and they always fight. At this point they're more than likley more like a small legion than anything else. They also dont have librarians (But they have divinely inspired champions.) They're basically Generic Christian Crusaders in SPAAAAACE. As far as BT go, I like the Jonathan Green "Armageddon" characterizations more anyhow.. alot of what you are complaining about can largely be attributed to Ben Counter, I think.

I read the Armageddon books. Well, one book. It was pretty decent, though I think I prefered the parts with the Guardsmen in the deep and horrible jungle with their Inquisitorial Kroot agent... but even then, I think Guardsmen being attacked by big bloodsucking plants isn't even an entirely original thing, it also happened in the Last Chancers books.

Questionable; Cain's impressions of the Space Marines make them out to be pretty grim and dark, while everyone else is a merely human killing machine. Hence the "merely human" stuff like genial Lord Generals, Sororitas instructors who remembered that the "bolter nuns" never actually swore a vow of chastity, and so on.

Well, Cain's impressions of the Space Marines aren't really too detailed since it seems like his exposure to them was fairly limited. Do any of the Cain short stories describe his time being attached to that Marine Chapter (the ones who pulled him out of that Necron ship)?

Yeah, Cain's stories don't deal too much with the actual-factual Space Marines or other such stuff. But Eisenhorn does!

The only catch being that somewhere out there there's a 40k geek screaming that Ragnar Blackmane shouldn't be feeling those little flickers of fear or noticing that Hot Inquisitor Lady is hot. Which is stupid, but what can you do?

Hot Inquisitor chicks are hot! This piques my interests in the Space Wolf books!

[Connor MacLeod]

How bad are the Soul Drinker books?

Beyond the grimdark of Ben Counter? Well there's the fact the Soul drinkers are incompetent in 4 out of 5 books (They've had chapter members turn against the chapter twice, they've been manipulated at least 3 times and there's implication they are still being maniuplated, and their actions have done more damage to the Imperium than all of Abbadon's black Crusades combined. and with that last bit I'm not sure whether I'm exaggerating or not.)

Oh yes. And a bolter. That fires daemons.

I too rather liked the teenaged Redemptionist fundamentalist IMPERIAL ASSASSIN chick who wears red panties who has a thing for the former Arbites dude! And that Guardsman who also thinks said chick is hot and kind of sort of (very obviously!) fancies her and gets along with her nicely, forming an awesome thing for the first time ever in 40k... A LOVE TRIANGLE!

I like it because it humanizes what would otherwise be insane parody stereotypes, which aids the suspension of disbelief as well as adding character interaction. I daresay that Mitchell is in some ways a better writer than Abnett.

It also helps that said Guardsman becomes an awesome character with a Dirty Harry esque revolver-hand cannon and with awesome lines. Like "I hope they got those little cheese things with sticks!" and getting to do shit like kill daemons with a sanctified lasgun!

I like both Guardsmen. They're kinda like a comedy duo with lasguns and a chainaxe.

(I did not know that TechPriests were also qualified to sanctify weapons against Chaos daemons. I thought only the Ecclesiarchy dudes could do that.)

Same, but it does make sense since they pass off the AdMech as an actual religion, and their "blessings" on machinery as a rule is supposed to HAVE an effect. I tend to think of it as a low level pyschic manifestation (a lesser WAAAAAGH effect)

Has there been a sequel to the first Sandy Mitchell Dark Heresy novel? I so want to see the continuation and further development of that LOVE TRIANGLE!

The next novel comes out Oct 27 so you're in luck

WHORES!

I got a Kal Jericho comic and it was pretty fun. I also liked DEFF SQUADRON! Goddamn, Orkz in FIGHTA BOMAS! KATCH THE SQUIGEON!

Well if you liked the comic you'll porbably like the books too.

The grimdark is probably not all that grimdark. It's probably just because of - as you said - shit writers. You know, shit writers who are so shit that the only thing they fixate on in 40k to the point of exclusivity is just the "grim darkness of the far future there is only war" shtick. As in, "there is only war" in the whole thing they write. Which is total shit. It's like how in the Star Wars EU, the only thing the authors also write about are Han Solo and Luke Skywalker's and Chewbacca's buddy cop swashbuckling space adventures until they're all geriatric and Han Solo has to dash around dashingly with a walker or a wheelchair while Luke Skywalker has to shit out through a colostomy bag since a Sith Lord stabbed a lightsaber through his colon, and a moon falls on Chewbacca or something. Or the Mangdalorians.

Well fans always have their favorites and preferences - so do authors. Even those who have had a hand in the creating of 40K from the beginning have their differing viewpoints (and it shows up in writings. Having read Andy Chambers own writings and compared it to say, Gav Thorpe or Graham McNeill - you get alot of differences on tech, the setting, enviroment, etc.) That includes Space Marines. I firmly believe Ben Counter hates Space Marines, and thats why he always writes them as he does.

The best 40K writers of Space Marines, in my opinion, manage to balance the human and superhuman aspects and use that as a source of tension (Ragnar Blackmane and his relations with the female inquisitor in the 2nd novel, or the Navigator from the third novel on). Abnett captured that well in Brothers of the Snake too (While I hated some of the combat shit of the Iron Snakes, I loved their interactions with humans and themselves.) Despite my distaste for his writing in some ways, Graham McNeill did pretty well in Warriors of Ultramar and Nightbringer. Hell, Storm of Iron despite bieng pure grimdark had an Imperial Fists not acting like a dick, and I always liked that.)

Its the marines who act like the Dark Angels (hur hur "my honor/chapter honor/battle brothers matter more than everyone else so fuck em" attitudes) that annoy me.

They just fixate on something, one particularly "cool" shtick that after a short while grows old and lame. Whereas real good authors are able to make more "multifaceted" literature.

Thats a big problem I have with some of the fluff in general, and "Grimdark" in general with the games and some of the novels. It gets taken to such a singleminded, one dimensional extreme that it becomes an unintentional parody. People would bitch if 40K was *too* lighthearted, or too peaceful or too silly - why should being "too grimdark" be acceptable?

Dan Abnett, for example, puts as much effort in writing his war scenes as he does in describing the wonders and sights and spectacles of the various worlds of 40k.

Abnett manages to balance his grimdark with positive shit and a more plasuible sort of grimdark. For me, seeing the results of war is pretty grim - innocent people driven from their homes, losing possessions, etc. I dont need anything else added like "THE PLANET WILL BLOW UP AND THEIR OSULS WILL BE EATEN IN THE WARP AND UNLEASHED IN REALSPACE AS SLAANESH FARTS WHICH WILL DESTROY THE ASTRONOMICAN MUAHAHAHA") Its also grim when he kills off one of his characters as he has done - he's got a gift for pulling that off for maximum emotional effect. Also, unlike the games, the Imperium actually WINS ultimately, and not some pyrrhic victory (unlike in some novels or, say, the games.)

Yeah. That's what I liked in particular about the very short scenes with Space Marines in the Eisenhorn books. They're not just some hyperthyroid superhuman killing machines, but each one of them is a goddamn hero. Like that one Marine who sacrificed himself by jumping into an explosion and saving Eisenhorn and his retinue's lives. Or, not even the Marines, but the Kasrkins who started stabbing a goddamn daemonhosts. Abnett didn't cum himself by just describing these superhuman acts, but he wrote about how these were heroic deeds and that the Marines/Kasrkins were saving people or doing an actual-factual noble deed.

Its not just nobility, although that does count a bit its just general "non grimdark, non pyrrhic "positive". I think its that sort of "Despite everything gainst us, despite the odds, despite the fact we may all be fucked we aren't going to give up and we're going to make these bastards sorry they fucked with us" attitude." and the fact that it even works. Grimdark is meaningless without something to contrast it against, and the contrast only matters if it gets equal showing. Necropolis and Cain's Last Stand both stand as examples ot that sort of thing done well.

Mmm... I've not had much exposure to the Blood Angels, actually. But just from the impressions they gave me, they seemed very much like the stereotypically bad Space Marine Chapter Done Wrong.

They're more of a cursed chapter than an asshole chapter. The bad shit happens because of something they couldn't help, and they fight against it as much as they can. Mind you, some of their spinoff chapters are assholes. But there's alot of positive shit about the Blood Angels.

This is why I very much avoid a whole lot of the Space Marine stories that feature, well, the more... 'ehhh' Marines. I considered getting that Soul Drinkers omnibus, as it was available in my local bookstore, but I decided to ignore it.

If you hate the grimdark, smart choice. I read them mainly for the analysis puproses (they can be good for that), but they're purely average on story. (Better than Traviss's later works, but that doesnt say alot.)

I read the Armageddon books. Well, one book. It was pretty decent, though I think I prefered the parts with the Guardsmen in the deep and horrible jungle with their Inquisitorial Kroot agent... but even then, I think Guardsmen being attacked by big bloodsucking plants isn't even an entirely original thing, it also happened in the Last Chancers books.

That would be the second one then, with the Armageddon Ork hunters. IT was okay, yeah, but I think the first one is better. The first one had a badass Titan, and Steel Legionnaires in it. What was pretty kickass in that was that you had a Black Templar Dreadnought (brother Jarrold) teaming up with and interacting with the Steel Legion Guardsmen, and in a totally non-asshole manner. I even believe Conquest references one of the Guardsmen doing a in-field repair on one of Jarrold's arms with a lascannon)

I rate Borther Jarrold right up there with the Dreadnought from Brothers of the Snake or the Space Wolves in general.

[Shroom Man 777]

Oh yes. And a bolter. That fires daemons.

That's actually pretty awesome!

I like it because it humanizes what would otherwise be insane parody stereotypes, which aids the suspension of disbelief as well as adding character interaction. I daresay that Mitchell is in some ways a better writer than Abnett.

Yeah, most of Mitchell's characters are really likeable and only a few are actually actively malicious. A lot are dumb and stuff. But he shows that, really, a lot of them have good hearts. It's very humanizing, as you say. And that's a proverbial breath of fresh air.

I mean, man. We actually get to LOVE certain characters, in frickin' 40k!

I like both Guardsmen. They're kinda like a comedy duo with lasguns and a chainaxe.

Chainaxe guy is grumpy but nice to children even if they are freaky-deaky psyker monsterlings, so he's cool. He is also watching over the Inquisitor's slightly ditzy girlfriend.

But I really digged how Lasgun Guardsman became such a total ass-beater overnight. He was pure win.

The next novel comes out Oct 27 so you're in luck

YES.

With the conclusion of the Cain books (Mitchell's not making any more, right? Not after the 'Last Stand'?), the Dark Heresy books are my only dose of awesome 40k Funnies!

Also, in which books can I find the Cain short stories?

Well fans always have their favorites and preferences - so do authors. Even those who have had a hand in the creating of 40K from the beginning have their differing viewpoints (and it shows up in writings. Having read Andy Chambers own writings and compared it to say, Gav Thorpe or Graham McNeill - you get alot of differences on tech, the setting, enviroment, etc.) That includes Space Marines. I firmly believe Ben Counter hates Space Marines, and thats why he always writes them as he does.

Mmm... upon observing some youngin' 40k fans, I am in the firm opinion that any single franchise's worst aspect is actually the fanbase.

The best 40K writers of Space Marines, in my opinion, manage to balance the human and superhuman aspects and use that as a source of tension (Ragnar Blackmane and his relations with the female inquisitor in the 2nd novel, or the Navigator from the third novel on). Abnett captured that well in Brothers of the Snake too (While I hated some of the combat shit of the Iron Snakes, I loved their interactions with humans and themselves.) Despite my distaste for his writing in some ways, Graham McNeill did pretty well in Warriors of Ultramar and Nightbringer. Hell, Storm of Iron despite bieng pure grimdark had an Imperial Fists not acting like a dick, and I always liked that.)

Yeah, going 300 Spartans on Orks was dumb. They could've just... y'know... bombed the crap out of the Uruk-Hai. Silly Iron Snakes, Trix are for Nids.

But the humanizing parts, those were awesome. Abnett showed just how different the Marines were from mortals, but with the first part of a dorky young chick calling out to a champion and receiving just one Marine newbie who proceeded to kill the fuck out of the Dark Eldar, to it coming full circle and the Marines returning as though unaged while the woman is now old, in charge of the old planet, and having outlived all her children (plus funny TIME PARADOX effects via warp travel)... I liked how he juxtaposed the beginning and the end with an outsider's POV, while a whole lot of the middle was done in Priad's own perspective.

Its the marines who act like the Dark Angels (hur hur "my honor/chapter honor/battle brothers matter more than everyone else so fuck em" attitudes) that annoy me.

They've forgotten the Space Marines' human defender/champion/hero context and are just focusing on, well, the Marines being superhuman badass killing machines and just that. With Warrior Honor thrown in for good measure.

Thats a big problem I have with some of the fluff in general, and "Grimdark" in general with the games and some of the novels. It gets taken to such a singleminded, one dimensional extreme that it becomes an unintentional parody. People would bitch if 40K was *too* lighthearted, or too peaceful or too silly - why should being "too grimdark" be acceptable?

I think it would be awesome if the characters of DEFF SKWADRON end up going to an Orky Aviashun Taktiks Institut - TOP ORK - and we have Maverork facing off with other Orky ace pilots.

Goddamn, ORKZ!

Abnett manages to balance his grimdark with positive shit and a more plasuible sort of grimdark. For me, seeing the results of war is pretty grim - innocent people driven from their homes, losing possessions, etc. I dont need anything else added like "THE PLANET WILL BLOW UP AND THEIR OSULS WILL BE EATEN IN THE WARP AND UNLEASHED IN REALSPACE AS SLAANESH FARTS WHICH WILL DESTROY THE ASTRONOMICAN MUAHAHAHA") Its also grim when he kills off one of his characters as he has done - he's got a gift for pulling that off for maximum emotional effect. Also, unlike the games, the Imperium actually WINS ultimately, and not some pyrrhic victory (unlike in some novels or, say, the games.)

Yeah, exactly. He writes the human toll of war well, too well even.

Its kind of opposite to Sandy Mitchell, who writes characters who we can WUV (^_____^) and whose whacky fun adventures we just love reading. But despite writing stories with nigh-opposite content, they are my two most favoritests!

That would be the second one then, with the Armageddon Ork hunters. IT was okay, yeah, but I think the first one is better. The first one had a badass Titan, and Steel Legionnaires in it. What was pretty kickass in that was that you had a Black Templar Dreadnought (brother Jarrold) teaming up with and interacting with the Steel Legion Guardsmen, and in a totally non-asshole manner. I even believe Conquest references one of the Guardsmen doing a in-field repair on one of Jarrold's arms with a lascannon)

I rate Borther Jarrold right up there with the Dreadnought from Brothers of the Snake or the Space Wolves in general.

I must read this, then. That sounds badass, because in the second book Jarrold was also pretty cool (blowing shit up).

[Connor MacLeod]

Yeah, most of Mitchell's characters are really likeable and only a few are actually actively malicious. A lot are dumb and stuff. But he shows that, really, a lot of them have good hearts. It's very humanizing, as you say. And that's a proverbial breath of fresh air.

I mean, man. We actually get to LOVE certain characters, in frickin' 40k!

The Dark Heresy stuff actually echoes elements of the Ghosts books with some of the Cain novels, I think. He's more "serious" in tone than the Cain novels (even Cain's last stand) but he manages to avoid the excessive grimdark, which is why it works for me.

Cain is more.. over the top. In the sense of the Orks. Cain is like a human Ork in that respect - there's alot of silly/absurd in what we read, but its supposed to capture that element of 40K and it does it so well.

Chainaxe guy is grumpy but nice to children even if they are freaky-deaky psyker monsterlings, so he's cool. He is also watching over the Inquisitor's slightly ditzy girlfriend.

But I really digged how Lasgun Guardsman became such a total ass-beater overnight. He was pure win.

He was from a rather high end Guard regiment IIRC (even if a bit of a trophy one)

YES.

With the conclusion of the Cain books (Mitchell's not making any more, right? Not after the 'Last Stand'?), the Dark Heresy books are my only dose of awesome 40k Funnies!

There's a limited edition Cain story called "Traitor's Gambit" that is supposed to be out (or maybe it was already out, I dunno) some sort of Games Day limited edition thing. Honestly though I doubt Cain has seen his last. Its mitchell's primary series and its pretty damn popular obviously.. BL will want him to keep writing Cain.

Also, in which books can I find the Cain short stories?

Damn. I'll have to check the short story compilations nad the novels. Truthfully, I like most of the short story compilations. They're so diverse in stories and scope. some stories are crap but some are pretty good. I know there's at least one or two Cain short stories that are in the compilatons I haven't read elsewhere.

Mmm... upon observing some youngin' 40k fans, I am in the firm opinion that any single franchise's worst aspect is actually the fanbase.

Are you thinking tau fans? lol.

Yeah, going 300 Spartans on Orks was dumb. They could've just... y'know... bombed the crap out of the Uruk-Hai. Silly Iron Snakes, Trix are for Nids.

I was just thinking using their bolters at a range greater than musket range would have worked. Abnett presented the Iron Snakes as a technologically sophisticated Chpater, and spends a ton of the book showing how badass they are in kicking Dark Eldar ass. The bit with the Orks was simply pointless stupidity that clashed with the rest of the book.

But the humanizing parts, those were awesome. Abnett showed just how different the Marines were from mortals, but with the first part of a dorky young chick calling out to a champion and receiving just one Marine newbie who proceeded to kill the fuck out of the Dark Eldar, to it coming full circle and the Marines returning as though unaged while the woman is now old, in charge of the old planet, and having outlived all her children (plus funny TIME PARADOX effects via warp travel)... I liked how he juxtaposed the beginning and the end with an outsider's POV, while a whole lot of the middle was done in Priad's own perspective.

yeah. The Iron Snakes Librarian reminded me of the Wolf Priest who mentored Ragnar in the Space wolf novels too (names are eluding me at the moment lol.)

They've forgotten the Space Marines' human defender/champion/hero context and are just focusing on, well, the Marines being superhuman badass killing machines and just that. With Warrior Honor thrown in for good measure.

I think its more that they choose a single "stereotype" and then apply that to the Chapter (or Marines) as a whole. That can be one of the problems with the Ultramarines novels (They're all noble nice guys.) Or they're all assholes (Dark Angels.) Writers (like McNeill) can go the opposite way of "total assholes" to "total mary sues" (coughcoughurielventriscough)

Bill King's Space Wolves broke that stereotype. The Salamanders novel also had some Marines who were bit of dicks, and there was inter-marine conflict in how they treated folk. One of the Short stories in Hereos of the Space Marines had the Crimson fists - at first the protagonist Fist was like the ones out of a Ben Counter novel, but he got his ass reamed by a Scout sergeant veteran who chastised him for being an asshole and not thinking of humans. Total turnaround and it made the story worthwhile for me. Its the variety that adds alot of the humanizing element, and the ability to be flexible in thoughts and actions, even within the latitude of being zealous psycho killers.

I think it would be awesome if the characters of DEFF SKWADRON end up going to an Orky Aviashun Taktiks Institut - TOP ORK - and we have Maverork facing off with other Orky ace pilots.

Goddamn, ORKZ!

Orks are good because they retain the inherent absurdity in 40K, and they're funny as hell, but I think they also tend to be another "go too far the other end of grimdark" with the idea that they are nothing but a joke race. People then forget how warlike and dangerous and nasty they can be to people (enslave and brutalize..) They have equal elements of humor and nastiness which is the sort of balance that for me works in 40K (each in its place.)

Yeah, exactly. He writes the human toll of war well, too well even.

Its kind of opposite to Sandy Mitchell, who writes characters who we can WUV (^_____^) and whose whacky fun adventures we just love reading. But despite writing stories with nigh-opposite content, they are my two most favoritests!

Mitchell can be pretty serious. The fates of some of Cain's comissar cadets and his reactions to them in always struck me as pretty grim. There was also Cain looking at the teenaged Sororitas recruits.. his thoughts and feelings on that resonated with me as being something dark without over the top.

I must read this, then. That sounds badass, because in the second book Jarrold was also pretty cool (blowing shit up).

Good luck finding the first one. I had a hell of a time locating it (nearly as bad as the Space Marine novel)

[Shroom Man 777]

The Dark Heresy stuff actually echoes elements of the Ghosts books with some of the Cain novels, I think. He's more "serious" in tone than the Cain novels (even Cain's last stand) but he manages to avoid the excessive grimdark, which is why it works for me.

Cain is more.. over the top. In the sense of the Orks. Cain is like a human Ork in that respect - there's alot of silly/absurd in what we read, but its supposed to capture that element of 40K and it does it so well.

I think the difference between the Dark Heresy book and the Cain novels is that the DH characters are, well, actually focused on finding the dark heresy and rooting it out. While in the Cain books, Cain is actively trying to avoid all that stuff - which adds more humor via his cowardice and his very biased asshole perspective - and in that Cain is, well, a bit of a total dick.

There's a limited edition Cain story called "Traitor's Gambit" that is supposed to be out (or maybe it was already out, I dunno) some sort of Games Day limited edition thing. Honestly though I doubt Cain has seen his last. Its mitchell's primary series and its pretty damn popular obviously.. BL will want him to keep writing Cain.

I just hope that he doesn't get "forced" to write more Cain and end up making uninspired material. I mean, even Cain's Last Stand - personally - wasn't as awesome as the previous stories.

Goddamn, where can I find Traitor's Gambit?

Are you thinking tau fans? lol.

Fans in general, actually. Fans of all franchises.

I don't think I've seen any Tau fans here in SD.net. At most, all I've seen them receive is derision and scorn.

I was just thinking using their bolters at a range greater than musket range would have worked. Abnett presented the Iron Snakes as a technologically sophisticated Chpater, and spends a ton of the book showing how badass they are in kicking Dark Eldar ass. The bit with the Orks was simply pointless stupidity that clashed with the rest of the book.

Geeze, yeah. Why didn't they just shoot them? Why go all phalanx and SPARTAAA? Meh.

Orks are good because they retain the inherent absurdity in 40K, and they're funny as hell, but I think they also tend to be another "go too far the other end of grimdark" with the idea that they are nothing but a joke race. People then forget how warlike and dangerous and nasty they can be to people (enslave and brutalize..) They have equal elements of humor and nastiness which is the sort of balance that for me works in 40K (each in its place.)

The Armageddon books show their nastiness. Hell, Death or Glory did so too. But, man, I do love them as a joke race with all sorts of hilarious WTF stuff.

Mitchell can be pretty serious. The fates of some of Cain's comissar cadets and his reactions to them in always struck me as pretty grim. There was also Cain looking at the teenaged Sororitas recruits.. his thoughts and feelings on that resonated with me as being something dark without over the top.

Yes he can, even in the first book where Cain muses on having ordered his troops fire on PDF troops who were just doing their job by setting up a roadblock. It's great to see him balance the grim stuff with Cain's also hilariously loopy POV, and to see how Cain just deals with everything in an awesome non-broody way. Cain is a very human and understandable character, very flawed and very nuts, but also very human.

Good luck finding the first one. I had a hell of a time locating it (nearly as bad as the Space Marine novel)

Goddamn. I must be more... creative... in finding my sources then.

[Aaron]

He was from a rather high end Guard regiment IIRC (even if a bit of a trophy one)

He was a former member of the Royal Scourges, the personal regiment of the Queen of Sepheris Secundus. It was implied that he requested transfer to the tithe because institutional politics was preventing him from rising in the ranks (mom was a chamber maid or something).

I was just thinking using their bolters at a range greater than musket range would have worked. Abnett presented the Iron Snakes as a technologically sophisticated Chpater, and spends a ton of the book showing how badass they are in kicking Dark Eldar ass. The bit with the Orks was simply pointless stupidity that clashed with the rest of the book.

I think they just got carried away with enthusiasim over fighting the greenskins for the first time in a thousand years.

yeah. The Iron Snakes Librarian reminded me of the Wolf Priest who mentored Ragnar in the Space wolf novels too (names are eluding me at the moment lol.)

Petrok and Ranek

Fans in general, actually. Fans of all franchises.

I don't think I've seen any Tau fans here in SD.net. At most, all I've seen them receive is derision and scorn.

Well I'm a big Kroot fan, so I'll grab a novel with the Tau to read about them. I can't stand the Tau though.

But the Soul Drinkers are really bad books Shroom, save your cash. Same with the Blood Angels novel, there wasn't one sympathetic character in the series.

As for novels that would make a good movie; any of The Last Chancers books would be decent. The last one is kind of weak but the first and second would be ideal.

[Shroom Man 777]

I have read the Last Chancers omnibus, but sadly it hasn't quite gripped me in the way as the Cain and Eisenhorn stories have, or the other works of Abnett and Mitchell. I haven't finished the Last Chancers and haven't turned a page for... months now.

[Aaron]

I have read the Last Chancers omnibus, but sadly it hasn't quite gripped me in the way as the Cain and Eisenhorn stories have, or the other works of Abnett and Mitchell. I haven't finished the Last Chancers and haven't turned a page for... months now.

I read it before those (first WH40K book I read actually), which is probably what saved it for me. I read Cain before a couple of the Ghost novels and I couldn't get into them because Cain is hilarious and Gaunt is quite grim.

[Connor MacLeod]

I think the difference between the Dark Heresy book and the Cain novels is that the DH characters are, well, actually focused on finding the dark heresy and rooting it out. While in the Cain books, Cain is actively trying to avoid all that stuff - which adds more humor via his cowardice and his very biased asshole perspective - and in that Cain is, well, a bit of a total dick.

The thing about Cain is that in the latte rnovels (chronologically in his life that is) he's actually less and less of an asshole. I have no doubt that in the earlier ones he was trying to avoid all the dangeorus work and stuff, but as time goes on and his reputation grows, I think he actually comes to believe his own hype (or at least wants to maintain his reputation - he always seems afraid of being found out.) But his whole "scoundrel" persona as time goes on becomes more and more forced too, I think - his attitudes and thoughts in Cain's Last Stand are almost that of a genuinely feeling and caring person. (That he gambles and drinks and stuff as a commissar just makes him more "human" in my eyes.)

All said and done though, its the fact Mitchell can write in both a "non serious" and "serious" tone with the two series that rather impresses me. I like the versatility.

I just hope that he doesn't get "forced" to write more Cain and end up making uninspired material. I mean, even Cain's Last Stand - personally - wasn't as awesome as the previous stories.

Well to be honest, nothing is ever as "good" as the original. The most you cna hope for is things to just not get worse as time goes on.. or worse very slowly.

As for Cain, see above. His character has a gradual progression from "selfish bastard" to "semi-heroic bastard who doesnt want to lose his reputation". Its almost like being in constant peril of his life or reputation has built up a tolerance in him.

Goddamn, where can I find Traitor's Gambit?

Games day or on the BL website while supplies last, I think.

Geeze, yeah. Why didn't they just shoot them? Why go all phalanx and SPARTAAA? Meh.

Cool factor I guess. Even Abnett is victim to it.

The Armageddon books show their nastiness. Hell, Death or Glory did so too. But, man, I do love them as a joke race with all sorts of hilarious WTF stuff.

Alot of novels actually do. Gunheads does, Annihilation squad (3rd Last Chancer book), Ragnar's Claw does, etc.

Yes he can, even in the first book where Cain muses on having ordered his troops fire on PDF troops who were just doing their job by setting up a roadblock. It's great to see him balance the grim stuff with Cain's also hilariously loopy POV, and to see how Cain just deals with everything in an awesome non-broody way. Cain is a very human and understandable character, very flawed and very nuts, but also very human.

As I said, his ability to blend the two sides of serious and non serious are one of his positive qualities as a writer. not many other writers can do that.

[Simon_Jester]

I was just thinking using their bolters at a range greater than musket range would have worked. Abnett presented the Iron Snakes as a technologically sophisticated Chpater, and spends a ton of the book showing how badass they are in kicking Dark Eldar ass. The bit with the Orks was simply pointless stupidity that clashed with the rest of the book.

Geeze, yeah. Why didn't they just shoot them? Why go all phalanx and SPARTAAA? Meh.

In the first battle, I think the commander saw the actual number of orks involved and said "Fuck it, we can take these guys with one hand tied behind our backs." Maybe going all phalanx and SPARTAAA is good for their morale once in a while- a good way to incorporate the newbies into the rest of the fighting force by giving them confidence in each other's support. I dunno.

In the second battle where they did that, I think they were in a weird position because they had to cut a hole in a very large ork force to get the rest of their troops out. They didn't have enough firepower to just nuke a hole in the enemy from orbit, so they had to physically take and hold ground... and since orks tend to pile in towards you when you try to do that to them, that meant going into close combat again.

Yes he can, even in the first book where Cain muses on having ordered his troops fire on PDF troops who were just doing their job by setting up a roadblock. It's great to see him balance the grim stuff with Cain's also hilariously loopy POV, and to see how Cain just deals with everything in an awesome non-broody way.

Or at the end of the first book, where you've got the Designated Couple staggering out of the ruins after the climactic battle... and Cain shoots them on sight because they've been infested with genestealer implants.

[Falkenhayn]

Let Honsou & the Gang be the antagonists. Hell, take some notice from Heroes of the Space Marines, and have Huron Blackheart make a cameo, chuckling ruefully with Hamadrya in place of a large white cat. Just so the movie doesn't take itself too seriously.

[white_rabbit]

Well, I for one would rather Sandy mitchell did more Dark Heresy books than Cain, the last few Cain books dragged like hell for me, theres only so many times I can read how inadvertently awesome Cain is, and incidentally how every badguy seems to job to him like their name was Thanos of Titan, before it gets boring.

The new Dark Heresy book admittedly dragged a little too, and got a little disjointed with the multiple teams of Acolytes, plus I'm innately against the Tau-love that oozes every time their shit comes on screen, but it was a lot more interesting than the last Cain book, and I'm really looking forward to the third now given the ending.

Shroom wrote.
Geeze, yeah. Why didn't they just shoot them? Why go all phalanx and SPARTAAA? Meh.

If you read it, they actually do, they empty bolters, plasma guns and flamers into the oncoming orks, reload and repeat at least once as well.

Apparently there were just that many orks. Or a less charitable POV, their guns weren't good enough to break/kill thousands of orks.

From the perspective of a super-duper badass killing machine, I suppose you could flail around and decide they did it simply because it was quicker to slaughter them all then and there, as Simon says, " Fuck it, we'll do it live"

I think it would be awesome if the characters of DEFF SKWADRON end up going to an Orky Aviashun Taktiks Institut - TOP ORK - and we have Maverork facing off with other Orky ace pilots.

Goddamn, ORKZ!

I love it.

Although wouldn't it be something like SKY BOSS ?

[Shroom Man 777]

The new Dark Heresy book admittedly dragged a little too, and got a little disjointed with the multiple teams of Acolytes, plus I'm innately against the Tau-love that oozes every time their shit comes on screen, but it was a lot more interesting than the last Cain book, and I'm really looking forward to the third now given the ending.

THIRD Dark Heresy book? When was the second one released?!