DUNE versus STAR WARS

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-02-11 08:59pm

Let's say Star Wars and Dune were parallel universes and Imperial forces crossed over and decided to try to capture the million-some habital worlds in the Corrino Empire. Who would win?

Granted, the weaponary in Dune was never fully explored in any of the novels, with only a hint at the awesome weaponary from the prequels to Dune. It seems like the most blatant overt weapon of mass destruction the Dune universe used were atomics and their derivatives, and biological weapons.

There is also the question of shields. The shields in Dune seemed to have an, allergic reation to laser that unleashes a tremendous amount of energy upon contact. I am not sure as to how house-shields reacted to small arms and such, though I'm guessing it'll be much more deadly to the attacker than the House that it protects otherwise we'd have seen those gureilla tactics where one man with a lasgun fires at the house shield instead of Dr. Yueh sabotaging the shields. My only conclusion is that to set off the dangerous subatomic explosions the power output of the lasgun has to be comparable to the size of the shield.

Fleet wise, I don't know if we have much of a comparison. In House Atreides we see some combat pods and later in House Corrino we see that these pods are of comparable size to arm an entire rebellion. Heighleiners are reputed to be incredibly massive and most likely suitably well armed, and artificial moons can be created, the Kronos moon. Shipboard lasguns can lay waste to entire cities at the very least as demonstrated in House Corrino.

The speed of travel is limited by the navigators availability but is much more quicker than Star Wars ships. They can reputedly travel from one end of the universe to another in an instant.

Groundtroops, I don't doubt that the House troopers will kick stormtrooper ass. They are taught more for close quarters combat yet are still quite effective at ranged fighting. After the Butlerian Jihad almost everyone's become comparatively, supermen.

If we take the Dune timeline to post Leto II, we will also see no-ships that are invisible and are the most heavily armed ships in the universe, which means that if a cruiser from the time of the Corrinos can lay waste to a city at the very least, what can a no-ship accomplish?

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2003-02-11 09:23pm

-cocks head- knife weilders vs the combined arms warfare of attack of the clones?

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-02-11 09:25pm

Ummm....yeah, we had this one...and honestly Dune doesn't stand that much a chance(and to take the Corriono Empire...conquer Arrakis or hold it hostage)

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-02-11 09:25pm

They weren't just knife wielders. They had lasguns which seem to be more effective than the blaster, maula pistols, artillery, thermal bombs, the whole gamut.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-02-11 09:32pm

The war opens with a Death Star attack on Arrakis. Eliminate the spice, and you eliminate the Navigators and the entire basis for galactic travel in the Dune galaxy.

Artanis · Post by **Artanis** » 2003-02-11 09:32pm

Just a couple nitpicks:

1) IIRC, lasguns really are lasers, as seen from their effects (Dune: Lasguns deduced from them stitching up the sand, not from a visible beam. Prequels: Lasguns "chop up" the bull that killed Leto's dad). If you go by the original books, Lasguns are REALLY expensive...so much so that their mere presence was a major setback to the Atreides. However, Blasters and Turbolasers are both cheap and NOT LASERS.

2) Blasters and Turbolasers ARE NOT LASERS.

3) Why the hell would a heighleiner be armed? Anybody dumb enough to shoot at one gets transport cut off forever...aka, suicide.

4) Blasters and Turbolasers ARE NOT LASERS.

Artanis · Post by **Artanis** » 2003-02-11 09:42pm

*rereads*

I thought you were trying to say that Blasters would set off a shield. Regardless, making a big boom with a lasgun-shield interaction does NOT necessarily mean a large power level for the lasgun. The lasgun only has to put out enough power to seriously fuck up the shield which, as far as I can tell, is pretty easy to do.

If you meant to say that "they could put shields down and then shoot them", why don't they do that in the books? There's one instance of using a shield-lasgun explosion as a booby-trap, but as overly-complex minefields or grenades? Once again, in the originals, lasguns were rare (something that REALLY pissed me off about the prequels).

Shogoki · Post by **Shogoki** » 2003-02-11 10:36pm

(something that REALLY pissed me off about the prequels).

Just what else could you expect from KJA?

Damn i hate him.

Captain tycho · Post by **Captain tycho** » 2003-02-11 10:45pm

Patrick Degan wrote:The war opens with a Death Star attack on Arrakis. Eliminate the spice, and you eliminate the Navigators and the entire basis for galactic travel in the Dune galaxy.

Eliminate the spice, and you also kill trillions of people who are hooked on it, plus disable the entire galactic economy.

Post by **Kuja** » 2003-02-11 10:47pm

*ahem*

BASE.

DELTA.

ZERO.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2003-02-11 10:50pm

Thi nking too hard Iggy.

A bunch of water in some cargo ships, raining on all of Arrakis

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-02-11 10:56pm

Captain tycho wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:The war opens with a Death Star attack on Arrakis. Eliminate the spice, and you eliminate the Navigators and the entire basis for galactic travel in the Dune galaxy.
Eliminate the spice, and you also kill trillions of people who are hooked on it, plus disable the entire galactic economy.

Hate to say this, but I doubt the Empire would care.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2003-02-11 11:12pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
Captain tycho wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:The war opens with a Death Star attack on Arrakis. Eliminate the spice, and you eliminate the Navigators and the entire basis for galactic travel in the Dune galaxy.
Eliminate the spice, and you also kill trillions of people who are hooked on it, plus disable the entire galactic economy.
Hate to say this, but I doubt the Empire would care.

It is too easy a solution. BDZ or Deathstar the planet. The whole empire in the Dune galaxy collapses and milions of people die. Almost as easy as pushing a button.

meNNis · Post by **meNNis** » 2003-02-11 11:17pm

oh good, wong should have a field day with this one.

another Dune vs SW thread

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-02-11 11:18pm

How about post-Leto II reign when the universe is not dependent on spice for travel, when they have Ixian machines to do a navigators work. Fleets of no-ships. And nymphomaniacs galore!

Captain tycho · Post by **Captain tycho** » 2003-02-11 11:18pm

Patrick Degan wrote:
Captain tycho wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:The war opens with a Death Star attack on Arrakis. Eliminate the spice, and you eliminate the Navigators and the entire basis for galactic travel in the Dune galaxy.
Eliminate the spice, and you also kill trillions of people who are hooked on it, plus disable the entire galactic economy.
Hate to say this, but I doubt the Empire would care.

No, I'm saying the Empire could use this as a viable strategy.
Threaten to eliminate the spice, and you'll have the entire galaxy at your feet.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-11 11:19pm

Let me see if I have this right:

Empire has the advantage in numbers, worlds, industrial capacity, ground equipment, and AFAIK weapons power. Not to mention several different types of superweapons.

And you think dune would win?

And Imperial army vs Dune groundpounders has been done. Imperials kicked their asses. Peace through superior firepower baby.

Patrick Degan · Post by **Patrick Degan** » 2003-02-11 11:28pm

Captain tycho wrote:
Patrick Degan wrote:
Captain tycho wrote: Eliminate the spice, and you also kill trillions of people who are hooked on it, plus disable the entire galactic economy.
Hate to say this, but I doubt the Empire would care.
No, I'm saying the Empire could use this as a viable strategy.
Threaten to eliminate the spice, and you'll have the entire galaxy at your feet.

Eliminate Arrakis, and you have the galaxy at your feet. And without all the tedious waiting around for the enemy's surrender, either.

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-02-11 11:33pm

Without computerized fire control systems, I can't imagine that Dune starships would even be able to HIT an Imperial starship, never mind doing any damage (the ability to destroy a city with one lasgun shot indicates megaton-range firepower; the ability to wipe out whole continental nations with one shot indicates heavy turbolaser firepower; there is no comparison).

And Arrakis is simply the biggest strategic weakness that the Dune civilization could possibly have. Not that the Empire would even need to use the Death Star; the Dune civilization does not have planetary shields.

One ISD could destroy the entire infrastructure of the Dune empire with a single BDZ operation.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2003-02-11 11:40pm

Trytostaydead wrote:How about post-Leto II reign when the universe is not dependent on spice for travel, when they have Ixian machines to do a navigators work. Fleets of no-ships. And nymphomaniacs galore!

How about you post some numbers?

Seriously, the GE has stuff that can wipe out Dune before theyt even know what hits them. Your entire argument has been an expression of fanboyism so far. Put up or shut up.

Artanis · Post by **Artanis** » 2003-02-12 12:46am

Question: I recall there being ONE no-ship, but have not read House Corrino or Butlerian Jihad yet. Do either of those books show more than ONE no-ship?

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-02-12 01:00am

Ender wrote:
Trytostaydead wrote:How about post-Leto II reign when the universe is not dependent on spice for travel, when they have Ixian machines to do a navigators work. Fleets of no-ships. And nymphomaniacs galore!
How about you post some numbers?

Seriously, the GE has stuff that can wipe out Dune before theyt even know what hits them. Your entire argument has been an expression of fanboyism so far. Put up or shut up.

Yes Ender. It IS fanboyism. I would like to see two universes that I love duke it out in some person's wild flight of imagination. This was a "what if" section buddy, not a tally.

And it was not an argument.

As for #'s, I would have no idea where to get #'s for the Dune universe. The best estimates from the books are given that there are about a million worlds in the Corrino Empire. Though it is given that there are far more outside that is the source of danger and sanctuary for renegade Houses.

For estimation, the Guild is given to employ billions just to service their ships on Junction. The Ixians would also employ probably at least millions to build a Heighleiner. These ships are given dimensions large enough to transport almost an entire House and have some room for more. In Dune, it seemed like House Atreides left in two groups. An advanced party and then the rest of the household. Though I would assume the advanced party was just a portion of their House troops to secure the area for the Ducal family.

For at least Imperial battleships, five heighleiners were needed to transport a relatively small amount of ships to Arrakis. The Emperor's "tent" on Arrakis contained at least five legions of Sardaukar and their accompanying servants and women and the Imperial court.

At least one artificial moon is mentioned, the Kronos Laboratories. If they built one for research, it is not unconceivable that they could build one for defense or offense purposes, or at least on that scale.

The numbers in the book about population and military losses were actually quite small since they dealt with only Arrakis. However, you have to remember that Arrakis has a small population (10 million), and the Harkonnen and Sardaukar had plenty more worlds to control and probably only proportionaly deployed a small fraction of their numbers.

Trytostaydead · Post by **Trytostaydead** » 2003-02-12 01:01am

Artanis wrote:Question: I recall there being ONE no-ship, but have not read House Corrino or Butlerian Jihad yet. Do either of those books show more than ONE no-ship?

Past God: Emperor of Dune there are butt loads of no-ships flying around. Artificial spice flows freely. Ixian machines can naviage space-fold.

Captain tycho · Post by **Captain tycho** » 2003-02-12 01:03am

Artanis wrote:Question: I recall there being ONE no-ship, but have not read House Corrino or Butlerian Jihad yet. Do either of those books show more than ONE no-ship?

No.
There can only be one...

Post by **AdmiralKanos** » 2003-02-12 01:09am

Trytostaydead wrote:As for #'s, I would have no idea where to get #'s for the Dune universe. The best estimates from the books are given that there are about a million worlds in the Corrino Empire. Though it is given that there are far more outside that is the source of danger and sanctuary for renegade Houses.

Could you provide quotes, please? This board is attached to a website which provides quotes and pictures to substantiate everything it says. Your statements, on the other hand, are vaguely referenced to "the books", which is inadequate to say the least.

For estimation, the Guild is given to employ billions just to service their ships on Junction. The Ixians would also employ probably at least millions to build a Heighleiner.

The use of huge amounts of manpower does not necessarily indicate anything beyond a labour-intensive manufacturing technique.

For at least Imperial battleships, five heighleiners were needed to transport a relatively small amount of ships to Arrakis. The Emperor's "tent" on Arrakis contained at least five legions of Sardaukar and their accompanying servants and women and the Imperial court.

Have they ever stolen one planet's oceans and moved them to another?

At least one artificial moon is mentioned, the Kronos Laboratories. If they built one for research, it is not unconceivable that they could build one for defense or offense purposes, or at least on that scale.

How big was this moon, could it move, and what special capabilities does it have?

The numbers in the book about population and military losses were actually quite small since they dealt with only Arrakis. However, you have to remember that Arrakis has a small population (10 million), and the Harkonnen and Sardaukar had plenty more worlds to control and probably only proportionaly deployed a small fraction of their numbers.

Even if you multiply them by 500, it wouldn't add up to squat.

The Duniverse has four main problems, as I see it:

Dependence on the spice. You describe an era in which this is irrelevant; when does this take place, and who are the Ixians? Not everyone has read any Dune book besides Dune itself.
Rules of battle. By the time they realize that the Empire disregards all of their rules, it will be too late.
No planetary shield systems.
Inferior firepower.

PS. Some quotes on the time requirement for spacefold travel and loading/unloading of barge contents onto planetary surfaces would also be nice.