Looking Back on: Operation Flashpoint Cold War Crisis

[Zixinus]

Especially after getting to that point in my game. Dear lord, even after getting used to it a bit, its still an unholy clusterfuck to manage in the middle of a firefight.

I've skipped the "hide in the forest mission" because of tanks. Yes, tanks. Any one time I get near the damn extraction point, I will have to kill someone and odds are that a tank will pop up and make any progression impossible. I know its supposed to be one of the really unique "do it your way" OP moments, but as far as I can see it, there is only one way to do it.

If there's one thing I love about 'gaming jouralism', it's how reviewers have to hit the buttons for the audience. OMG TEH CONSOLEZ BROKE ITZ!!?! People will be mad the comm system isn't totally shit now! Controllers = game is easy!

I'm not sure I get you. The reviewer appears to be in favour of the new system. He clearly hints that its not perfect, but that its still pretty usable.

And really, its something that everyone else is talking about (he expression his apathy to the Arma2 milsim-hardcores pretty clearly), why wouldn't the reviewer spare a paragraph about it?

[Stark]

That's what I mean; he LIKES the game, but has to mention that people will be 'irate' or feel babyed or consider a feature 'console-y' instead of just talking about whether it's good. It's clear the reviewer likes the game and has no real problems with any of these elements, but in the reviewing space it's par for the course to constantly mention these things. I think it's funny.

Tropico 3 on 360, remember?

[CaptHawkeye]

Even if it's mapped poorly it's still a way better design than the old system as has been mentioned.

Normally I don't care what the devs have to say in their development videos but i've actually been getting good impressions from CM's dev team. They've been talking about how little they had to balance the game when they just let everything fall into place the way it should. How the game has naturally been coming together just through the inclusion of often forgotten details with minimal need to handwave away things because it didn't fit the gameplay design. I really like how the difficulty of the game is adjusted by the HUD resources available to the player. Supposedly the AI is the same challenge on every difficulty level.

According to the devs a big challenge comes from spotting your enemy before he spots you. What's this you say? No health bar spam necessary? No silly inaccurate guns beyond 20m necessary? No usual gameplay conventions necessary for challenge when just using real-life concerns works just as well?

[Zixinus]

It appears that you won't need a serial number for online play. Can anybody confirm this?

Codemasters is also a bit tardy about getting the game on Steam. It will appear on Steam list on... release day. So much for preordering.

Rumour also has it that the game is already leaked on the pirate nets and someone posted a photo of their OP2 box.

[Commander 598]

Okay, it's been played and what I've heard:

No dedicated server support.
"Shoot and track enemy through house" dumb AI.
"Beeline at a sniper" dumb AI.
Gunship AI that fails to threaten.
And the ~63 "entity" limit and it's subsequent entity spawning leading to tactical hilarity/horror. "I JUST DROPPED ARTILLERY HERE! WTF?!"

[Vympel]

"Shoot and track enemy through house" dumb AI.

Do you mean they shoot at you as if you're out in the open even though you're in a house, and can see you even though they have no way of knowing where you are in the house? Because that blows.

"Beeline at a sniper" dumb AI.

Do you mean if you snipe the enemy, they make a beeline right for you? Or something else?

Gunship AI that fails to threaten.

Man, how do you stuff that up?

And the ~63 "entity" limit and it's subsequent entity spawning leading to tactical hilarity/horror. "I JUST DROPPED ARTILLERY HERE! WTF?!"

Can you elaborate?

[Commander 598]

Do you mean they shoot at you as if you're out in the open even though you're in a house, and can see you even though they have no way of knowing where you are in the house? Because that blows.

Here's what I was going from:

The AI is wretched. I just had to ragequit out of a mission (again) because of it. My squad was ordered to hold an approach to the village, with the rest of my platoon covering the other entrances. We dug in, I grabbed one of the mounted heavy machine guns and we started blasting the chinese.

Then: "Delta was unable to hold, watch your backs!", "Alpha was unable to hold! North has been breached!" and then the fourth side, all within seconds. We were swarmed by chinese dudes and the controls in this game are so rigid and clunky I died in seconds. OK, reload and try again.

This time I left my dudes to cover the path and took a walk around the village to see how a handful of chinese dudes could so easily overwhelm 16 marines. Well as it turns out one of the marines was trying to shoot them THROUGH A HOUSE (all the while tracking them through its two walls), another dude was casually standing in front of the emplacements and the tanks get popped in seconds because even though they obviously SPOT the chinese guys they're unable to shoot the AT teams. And this was just the first of the four positions. Some dudes were just WALKING through.

It's hugely infuriating.

Do you mean if you snipe the enemy, they make a beeline right for you? Or something else?

Yes.

Man, how do you stuff that up?

Like this I guess, but if anythings a true bug here it's probably this:

But oh poo poo, now there's a gunship heading straight for us! We're on top of a hill with no cover, so I'm getting mentally ready to reload, but the loving thing just takes a couple of potshots at us and flies off into the distance. A couple of minutes later I'm actually WARNED that the Chinese have CAS now but the helicopter just buzzes around and flies over us as we all blast away on our non-suppressed sniper rifles.

Can you elaborate?

Here:

EDIT: oh and the game plays unfair too. Same SAM clearing mission, after completing the first objective you get given artillery support. I climb a tower and spot the SAM site about a kilometer away, so I order a barrage down on top of it. The side of the hill gets hosed up by a prolonged barrage, but once we slog up there it's full of soldiers who aren't any worse for the wear so clearly they didn't exist in the game world until we crossed an arbitrary trigger point.

I'm pretty much just refreshing the SA OFP2 thread for fun today.

[Vympel]

*sigh*

Just once, I'd like to see a game be finished to a state of polish. Though from what I've heard it's got more than ArmA2. Oh well, another game I don't need to play just yet.

[Commander 598]

These are just the low points. It seems the AI is fairly decent most of the time.

[Zixinus]

Is it as broken piece of shit as Arma 2 or is it actually enjoyably playable, aside the problems above?

[Commander 598]

If I had my hands on it I'd say but I don't.

Also: No JIP. http://community.codemasters.com/forum/ ... tcount=673

[Stark]

Or we could actually play it instead of repeating goonspam? I've heard the menus are old-fashioned, and amusingly you can't move when giving orders even though it uses thed-pad. PC port ruins consoles again? Lol

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Okay, I've played and completed the first mission (It took me three tries on hardcore mode). Here are my first impressions:

- It looks great.
- I had no idea what I was doing the first time around but I managed to get my bearings the second time playing the mission so the learning curve can't be that bad.
- The radial menu interface for giving orders is a VAST improvement over OF1's number menu but it still takes a bit of getting used to. My biggest gripe about it is you toggle the radial menu on and off by pushing a button repeatedly. Holding a button down to turn it on (and releasing the button to turn it off) would have worked a lot better.
- Swapping weapon modes (semi-auto, auto and grenade launcher) is confusing on hardcore mode. Yes, there shouldn't be any HUD in "real-life" but you should be able to easily tell whether your weapon is on grenade launcher mode.
- Calling in artillery is fucking awesome.
- I don't know if there is a way to turn on freelook while driving a vehicle. I couldn't seem to find a way to do it.
- It's easy to get lost in a middle of the battle (as it should be) but it's difficult to locate wounded squad mates even after the fight. Generally, if you are wounded in a fight, you usually die before the fight is over unless you're lucky enough to be close to a squad mate when you are hit.
- I thoroughly enjoyed the first mission. I can't wait to play the next one.

[charlemagne]

- I thoroughly enjoyed the first mission. I can't wait to play the next one.

That's all I needed to know to not cancel my preorder

[Stark]

My impressions after the first mission.

I fucking hate the default keyboard controls. The inventory system is horrid, even worse because it takes so long to get everything out. I just use the menu now. But all popups in the game require a button to opn and another press to close, which is MEGA LAME. Having to stand still while you gve orders is retarded when it uses the d-pad. The artillery interface doesn't seem to like to go away before you send the mission, so you can blow yourself up if you think it's gone and try to move. Because moving and orders are linked for... some... reason. The PC version even lets you use the mouse (at least to highlight orders).

The combat itself is nice, although the lack of customisation is a bit of a shame you can snag up PLA rubbish pretty easily. The lack of driver freelook and the horrible driver AI (if you go commander and give orders) makes vehicles a bit lame, but the infantry stuff is nice. It's amusing that it looks better and runs better than Arma2. The apparent lack of lean really confused me (especially since the 'lean' button is now the 'make orders panel stay up forever' button), but at least you can climb. The game and flow is nice, without so much of the inane 'walk for 15m' of OFP. I'll get it on 360 when it comes out in suckland for coop, definately.

I haven't seen much terrible AI, either. When I say 'go over to those bricks' the squad moves there (differently if under fire or not) and deploys, spots and engages enemy, moves around, etc. I just wish they'd talk a bit more; at one point they buggered off to another pile of bricks leaving me all by myself.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

It seems like the renderer and the audio are run on separate threads or processes. I haven't seen a significant drop in framerate but yet my audio lags once in awhile.

[Stark]

Are you using silly EAX-N1 elite 3D THX sound or regular sound? I haven't noticed any audio lag myself.

The engine seems pretty good; the smoke doesn't ruin the framerate like in certain other games, the view is long with seemly nice lodding, and the grass is dense and effective. On my 8800 it runs fine on 'high' and I haven't dicked about with it too much.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Are you using silly EAX-N1 elite 3D THX sound or regular sound? I haven't noticed any audio lag myself.

The engine seems pretty good; the smoke doesn't ruin the framerate like in certain other games, the view is long with seemly nice lodding, and the grass is dense and effective. On my 8800 it runs fine on 'high' and I haven't dicked about with it too much.

On the sound issue, I'll have to go home and check. I mentioned earlier about my gripe about the keyboard controls and having to push a button to open a menu and to press again to close. But I think I've gotten used it to by now that it's second nature for me to immediately close the menu after issuing an order. One thing I've also noticed too is that the suppressive fire command only works when you've got an enemy in your sights. I wish the entire fireteam would just lay down suppressive fire wherever I pointed at instead. I've also read about people enabling freelook while riding a vehicle but I haven't discovered how to do it yet (unless they're talking about a non-driver seat).

[Stark]

Yeah, I started triple-tapping too, but I'm so used to hold-menus that I dont' see the point of the toggle menus. Then again, I don't like the stance system either; I prefer 'up and down' to 'stand crouch prone'. The weapons/item menu on ] is so useful I have no idea why the number/function keys are used at all (and when I get home I'm just going to remap the weapon menu onto 2). It's a weird mix of old interface concepts (numbered guns) and new, console-friendly, faster systems (radial and popup menus).

[Stark]

Wow, the game is significantly improved with the control pad. The orders can't be sent accidentally, the orders/inventory buttons are hold not toggle, etc. I have no idea what people mean when they say changing ammo is hard on xbox; it's just a held reload button. Fuck, that's what I'd like it to be on fucking PC.

Anyone who has this game should plug in a 360 controller and laugh at how much easier it is.

[Zixinus]

Anyone who has this game should plug in a 360 controller and laugh at how much easier it is.

Ugh, why? This just confirms the very thing that a lot of people feared: that the controls will be optimised for console controls and the developers didn't bother to adopt it to PC.

[Stark]

Can you read? The 360 controls are just BETTER. Why the fuck is the orders function a toggle and not a hold? Turns out the PC control system is just shit (although it's fine once you get used to it). By using the dpad for orders, you can't give orders accidentally. OMG RUINED BY CONSOLE PORT ZOMG. What Bean said back on page one is in practice very valid - it's really counter-intuitive to use movement buttons for orders, especially when you've got shooter reflexes that say 'being shot = move'. You've got a fucking mouse and PC players can use that. Why use WASD at all? Before you say OMG CONSOLEZ remember the consoles don't use movement inputs for orders at all.

Whose fault is it that it's easier to change ammo types on console, when there's NO FUCKING REASON the PC change ammo couldn't be 'hold reload' as well? It's actually a strange control system, because the restriction on movement while giving orders is clearly due to the PC control system (which uses movement to choose from menus) and hurts the console version for no reason. Oops.

All those buttons that default to right side of the keyboard for no reason? On the d-pad. The annoying 3-button stance system? Click left-stick to toggle crouch, hold to go prone. Wow, consoles really ruined this game because none of this could have worked on PC.

Oh... wait? lol.

The whole idea of 'optimising' 'controls' for 'console' not 'PC' is fucking bullshit. It's goddamn keymapping and it's not ZOMG CONSOLEZ fault if the developers are too stupid or conservative to make decent default controls. It's actually amusing that on PC you have the 1... 9 and F1... F9 buttons to use inventory (which is crap)... or you can use the inconvenient menu button to manage your equipment like on console. Which would you choose? Why is the inventory button so fucking far away on PC? Why does the artillery popup not work anymore if you are using a controller (it pops up with y, doesn't respond to d-pad and left stick cancels it) forcing you to use the keyboard?

I'm sure it's those damn consoles fault. How dare they have a better and faster control system with less buttons!

[Zixinus]

I'm in a bit of a hurry, so I'll just ask this:

Stark, do you think that it is possible or not to make the controls for the PC better with relatively minor improvements, from the developers standpoint?

I'm not saying that console controls are directly hurting the PC by their very existence, I'm saying that some people (and yes, that includes me) feared that when the developers were working on the control interface, they were focusing solely on the console controls and worked out the PC controls as an afterthought, even though they could have greatly improved it with fairly little effort.

Or is that an illegitimate complaint?

[Vendetta]

The whole idea of 'optimising' 'controls' for 'console' not 'PC' is fucking bullshit. It's goddamn keymapping and it's not ZOMG CONSOLEZ fault if the developers are too stupid or conservative to make decent default controls.

You are obviously not Hardcoer enough Stark. PC gamers want shit control systems, so that they can look down on console players because they didn't have to fight against the interface in order to play the game. They want to use as many different buttons on the keyboard as possible, despite the fact that differential inputs like quick press/hold on the same button would be much easier and faster (and have been around since forever, or at least Halo 2 or something) because keyboards are better precisely because they have a hundred buttons, and dammit they want to use them all.

Stark, do you think that it is possible or not to make the controls for the PC better with relatively minor improvements, from the developers standpoint?

Evidently yes, because there's no reason other than cockfaced stupidity that they didn't use all the same optimisations that they use for the gamepad on a keyboard. A game should be capable of differentiating between a long and short press of a key, which would instantly transfer half of the optimisations between the two systems.

[Stark]

Hell yes. I'd be damn surprised if things like 'make controls holds instead of toggles' aren't patched in, and much of it can be remapped already. I never use the stupid number buttons already, I just mapped 1 (ie the knife you'll never use) to the weapon menu popup. I'm just annoyed I need a button for stand, crouch, prone, ammo, reload and zoom when those functions are two buttons and a stick-click on 360. PC games can have multi-function buttons too, dammit. I mean the 'hold left stick to go prone' is fucking cool; you can pissbolt and with a gentle push your guy dives to the ground, instead of taking up 3 keys near WASD.

And sorry Zinx, the whole 'oh dear console port' thing is just tired and lame these days so I get cross. It's really surprising to me that the 360 controls are good (reviews suggested it was clunky and bad) and it's lame that both sets of controls apparently took bad things from each other (ie, 360 can't move with orders pane up even though it uses d-pad to select and not left-stick, so there's no reason why you couldn't do it on the run). I really want to know why too, because if the 360 used the left-stick instead it could have more than four options on the ring at once (as in most other circle-menu games).

However, the game has the fucking annoying OFP thing where when prone, the game limits how much you can look 'down' based on the angle you're lying on. What this means is you can shimmy along a rock and be unable to point downwards for some magical reason.

The best thing is that the PC version seems to have the 360 controller code in it, because if you've got one plugged in everything (tootips, menus etc) instantly change to 'press start' and 'the arty button is y' etc.