Michael Bay: Today is "Day One" For Transformers 3

[Vympel]

Whether you found Brawl fighting boring or not is a seperate issue from the vulnerability of the robots, which you were also talking about (specifically my comment that if they could only be killed by other robots it would be boring shit). I personally didn't think any of the robots were non-threatening, but eh *shrug*

[Stark]

I was originally trying to use it as an example of how they weren't especially vulnerable sometimes (since 3 autobots and a pile of superhot sabots didn't do shit to Brawl for more than ten minutes), but I think my memory of the battle is too hazy. Regardless, black/white fallacies are unnecessary; the robots could be world-shaking (and we'd give a shit about half a dozen of them vs the world) without being immune to everything. I mean, Scorponok is lucky the A-10 missed or the second robot fight in the movie would have been an effortless win for the humans... in a movie where the point is 'omg big scary robots gonna kill us'. Hell, most of the 'awesome' combat is indeed robot vs robot ANYWAY, until half the decepticons are effortlessly destroyed in the anti-climax. F-22 > all transformers = non-threatening outside of 'sinister' powerplays, stealth, infiltration etc.

[SAMAS]

Yeah, what's with all this stealth and infiltration? It's not like anyone watches Transformers to see Robots in Disguise!

What's really ironic is that, at least IMO, one of the best recent series, IDW's comic, focused primarily on infiltration, stealth, and scheming too.

[VF5SS]

What's really ironic is that, at least IMO, one of the best recent series, IDW's comic, focused primarily on infiltration, stealth, and scheming too.

Except that whole series was fucking terrible. It made me pine for the Car Wash of Doom.

[Stark]

Yeah, what's with all this stealth and infiltration? It's not like anyone watches Transformers to see Robots in Disguise!

What's really ironic is that, at least IMO, one of the best recent series, IDW's comic, focused primarily on infiltration, stealth, and scheming too.

Yeah, if only they had competent writers that didn't throw it all away for 'awesome' fight scenes in which their mysterious, alien, cunning and deceptive villains are blown to shit in two seconds by the air force?

That IDW series had transformers far more vulnerable than the movie ones (guys with bazooka = transformer is effortlessly destroyed) but it still managed to have 'awesome' battles between robots and tanks, stupid human characters etc. AND humaniform infiltrators, lol.

[Simon_Jester]

Because I cannot stretch my suspension of disbelief to the point where I find it credible that the Transformers' own weapons are LESS effective than the weapons we can build and deploy from platforms of comparable size. And yet Transformers show considerable resistance to each others' ranged weapons. Is this entire race supposed to be so foolhardy that they get obsessed with melee combat and just don't think of arming themselves with heavier artillery that could do more than mildly inconvenience their foes?

SoD my big toe, fanboy. You're just throwing a tantrum because you can't setup your delusions of superiority. Comparable size?

Screw delusions of superiority; those things are in fact about the same size as a Stryker. They're not ALL that big, but a lot of them are. They aren't made of tinfoil, either, so having them weigh about as much as a sedan is right out.

And you can put a tank gun on a platform that size.

Go to the archives and look up why mechs<<<<tanks. Nevermind most of them aren't even in a tanks tonnage range.

If they aren't, then we have another problem, because their transformed forms are so damn big that they should be falling over whenever the wind kicks up.

Look, all crap aside, it's not a question of whether tanks beat mechs at a comparable tech level. It's that if you're going to go in and design a movie where tanks beat mechs easily, do not make a movie that revolves around giant mechs. It's common sense. If the conflict involves two factions of alien robots fighting over the future of Earth, then the alien robots must plausibly be able to DECIDE the future of Earth. Which requires that they not get their asses handed to them by the first bunch of guys who shows up with a Javelin or two.
_______

As for dismissing opinions from 'omg 80s cartoon' - that is probably where any serious "zomg that sucks!" opinion about the robots vulnerability must be derived. Consistency wise, there's absolutely nothing in either movie that implies these robots are meant to be invulnerable to human weapons, at any point. It's something that people have made up entirely in their heads as How It's Supposed To Be, and it's got nothing to do with anything in the movies.

I don't expect the robots to be invulnerable. I want them to be difficult to kill. There's a difference.

[Solauren]

I forgot to mention that the entire subplot with the human-lookalike fembot Decepticon in Sam's college dorm should have been excised from the movie. There was never any hint that they could make runway model Terminators before, and the whole plot tangent was resolved far too easily.

That's not true. We've actually had several instances of humanform Transformers, both in the original cartoon continuality, and in the various comics.

For example.... Pretenders where found in the English G1 Comics, as well as the Japanese continuation of the G1 Transformers cartoon.

Some notable pretenders include; Bumblebee, Grimlock, and Starscream

There were also two Gelsalt/Team Combiner Pretenders.

As for the Runway Model.... Perhaps I should introduce you to This Feme Fatal?

I'm not trying to argue the subplot wasn't pointless, just that it did have a basic in established Transformer capability.

[FOG3]

The 9/11 hijackers weren't exactly Rambo or armed with super weapons. If they're grabbing civies the politicians at least are historically a little edgy, because they want to avoid collateral damage.

Which is why planes were scrambled to try to shoot down the airliners on 9/11?

You seriously don't appreciate that sometimes you have to choose the lesser of two evils? Yeah, when it was a few hundred guys on an airliner or possibly a few thousand more casualties if it hit something, the airliner was SOL.

Anyway, the abduction of Sam's parents was not publicized. They just use them later to try to convince Sam to surrender.

fair enough

The laid out history only goes as far as that they've been bitch slapping each other in a stalemate for a long time, which implies nothing of the sort.

I'm not sure you're actually responding to me. I'm not one of the people arguing that the Autobots should logically be much, much better at killing Decepticons than the military. I'm just saying it's narratively weak to have the bad big alien robots be an inconsequential threat, and for the good big robots to be somewhat useful fire support.

Unless you're having them lob around neutron bombs, exactly how do you propose to do that? What you've talked about is them running into an Armor ambush and exposing themselves to air power and paying the consequences. If you magic that away, really we're talking tac nukes and large naval guns, and you're already whining about one of and in some ways the most powerful naval gun ever mounted on a ship. Lobbing nukes at each other from miles away does not a worthwhile movie make.

In movie 2 the primary threat is clearly the Decepticon army, since there's no Allspark anymore. Sure, there is a plot with a MacGuffin that is going to be used to DESTROY the world, but there is a heavy implication in the middle of the flick that the 'cons are essentially declaring themselves rulers of the world.

Except if they're uber-shit why do they need Macguffin #2 aka the Fallen? Unlike #1 the MacGuffin is such a big deal it's even advertised in the title. Your logic fails.

I'll freely admit that I'm more of a Transformers fanboy than a US military equipment fanboy. However, again considering that you haven't seen the movie that we're talking about, you seem a bit confused.

Here's the deal. In RotF, the US IS incompetent. This is a plot element. The president (actually name dropped as Obama) is such a hatfucker that he sends his stooge to make the anti-Decepticon team (Autobots and humans) go sit in their base and do nothing while the 'cons are running around breaking shit. But because this team is so awesome, they disobey orders, make a couple phone calls and and get the Navy, the Army, the Air Force, and two helicopters from Jordan to help them.

Compared to normal action/sci-fi movie, that's still better. Remember King Kong, where the planes deliver themselves on a silver platter to be destroyed by pointless fly close enough so the stupid ape can grab them? Remember the recent Die Hard where the F-35B sets itself up for Bruce Willis to take it out with stupid? Remember the stupid number of shrapneless explosives over the years that the heroes have ridden enough they should get frequent flyer miles. The stupid just looks more stupid over time, as people's ignorance lessens.

Incompetent civilian leadership happens in real life, and is usually at the core of why people lose. Read Sun Tzu is you don't want to take my word for it. Magic OMG OMG super duper fated crap reason is lame and contrived by comparison.

Do you really have such a hard-on for the military that you would rather see stock footage of US forces kill CG robots with big explosions in the desert rather than follow a satisfying narrative through-line?

Except you've not established such a narrative, and what you seem to want would imply tac nukes being thrown around like they were grenades. Not the stuff of good narrative.

I also love that you brought up Blackout. In his first scene, his energy weapon 1) can be dropped at his own feet to kill soldiers and weapons around him without hurting he himself, 2) is powerful enough to turn a [fragile thin skinned] cargo plane [probably by setting off the fuel tanks] into so much scrap instantly. In subsequent scenes, his weapon won't go through a car, it won't kill any humans that are a few tens of meters away when he fires at the street right in front of him, and he's killed with a sabot round to the groin and/or one F-22 attack.

You really overestimate what he was doing. If it was what you want to imply the squad never would have gotten away.

When did his weapon fail to go through a car? The only thing like that I remember was Blackout wrecking two two cars with his whirly blade. Was it perfect, no, but it is a step forward. These things don't exactly get refined out overnight, and I prefer this to the older garbage setups.

Is it too much to ask for competent military units to fight competent alien robots? Why must the US military be the only entity in the universe that uses tactics? The Decepticons in RotF could have had Starscream and Megatron (presuming they had no other fliers) swoop over and kill those tanks, and they could have taken out the naval battle group like they did to another one earlier in the same film. They just don't for some reason.

So by your own description in flat terrain, with the 3rd Army & rebuilt Air Force base from #1 and in the Mediterranean CVBG having moved at least within 200NM of the pyramids you want them to be wiping the floor with it thus rendering th MacGuffin they're rushing to activate and spent the entire movie going after, redundant? And that sets up a strong narrative? You seem to be the one proposing magic teleport, with the 'Cons getting in position. If it was USMC tanks, they could have gotten the size group you seem to be talking about there in short order even if 3rd Army didn't send theirs by rail.

Screw delusions of superiority; those things are in fact about the same size as a Stryker. They're not ALL that big, but a lot of them are. They aren't made of tinfoil, either, so having them weigh about as much as a sedan is right out.

And you can put a tank gun on a platform that size.

The Stryker can just barely manage it, at 19 tons, and that's with a solid mounting system, and optimum construction to handle the recoil. Given we've literally scene vehicles be transformed by the Allspark, and a lack of magic mass reserve, sorry but no dice on their being superheavy compared to the vehicles they imitate. You're talking Starscream and bigger sized guys to even get within the minimum tonnage range, who already can cause high level Autobots to be in mortal terror of him lobbing rounds at them. As evidenced by that whole scene where they grab a semi and try to use it as a shield.

As I said look up the old threads on why mechs<<< tanks. Physics is physics, you're whining about why they don't have 105mm rifles that are equivalent of a M1A2's cannon is stupid and baseless.

Look, all crap aside, it's not a question of whether tanks beat mechs at a comparable tech level. It's that if you're going to go in and design a movie where tanks beat mechs easily, do not make a movie that revolves around giant mechs. It's common sense. If the conflict involves two factions of alien robots fighting over the future of Earth, then the alien robots must plausibly be able to DECIDE the future of Earth.

They could by MacGuffin, not conventional threat. If they could conventionally take on everything and the kitchen sink being deployed against them there's no point to having a MacGuffin.

It's not like they made them super vulnerable, they just didn't turn them into OMG OMG Nuke It. And given how you guys whined about the first one, I imagine even then you'd bitch because in that case they would have nuked them and fried the robots before or after stupid about turning off their god mode.

[Simon_Jester]

Screw delusions of superiority; those things are in fact about the same size as a Stryker. They're not ALL that big, but a lot of them are. They aren't made of tinfoil, either, so having them weigh about as much as a sedan is right out. And you can put a tank gun on a platform that size.

The Stryker can just barely manage it, at 19 tons, and that's with a solid mounting system, and optimum construction to handle the recoil. Given we've literally scene vehicles be transformed by the Allspark, and a lack of magic mass reserve, sorry but no dice on their being superheavy compared to the vehicles they imitate. You're talking Starscream and bigger sized guys to even get within the minimum tonnage range, who already can cause high level Autobots to be in mortal terror of him lobbing rounds at them. As evidenced by that whole scene where they grab a semi and try to use it as a shield.

If my 1.5 ton car gets transformed into a 'wild' transformer by the Allspark, that does not prove that any and all things which turn into a car weigh 1.5 tons. My car body is mostly made of aluminum; large chunks of the body are hollow. There's a lot of room to store increased weight without magic mass reserves. The car would not perform the same mechanically, of course... unless it had, say, a freakishly advanced engine and steering system. But we know that giant alien robots don't have those...

Moreover, saying that Transformers have the same weight as the cars they imitate creates serious problems in their transformed version... in which they're twenty-foot robots. A twenty-foot robot that masses on the order of a ton is going to be a featherweight compared to other structures in the same size class. They'd be nothing but big sheet metal balloons, with about the same structural resilience as a semi trailer. You wouldn't even need antitank weapons to handle them; any more than you would with real life cars and trucks.

If we use masses that make the un-transformed versions of the robots credible, we're talking about the same general mass range as light armored vehicles, if not tanks. At which point they really should have tank-grade weapons mounted, given that they're going to be fighting each other.

As I said look up the old threads on why mechs<<< tanks. Physics is physics, you're whining about why they don't have 105mm rifles that are equivalent of a M1A2's cannon is stupid and baseless.

I know the reasons as well as you do; my objection stands. At the very least I'd expect to see something about as deadly as a Javelin or TOW... and a robot weighing even a few tons could carry quite a lot of missiles for something like that. My impression is that the foot soldier class Transformers don't even have THAT kind of firepower in the movie.

Come to think of it, why don't they fight in a transformed mode as some kind of gun platform if it's the huge disadvantages of a humanoid body that keep them from carrying heavy weapons comparable in firepower to those found on 20th century terrestrial tanks, which are powerful enough to take out their rivals easily?

It's not like they made them super vulnerable, they just didn't turn them into OMG OMG Nuke It. And given how you guys whined about the first one, I imagine even then you'd bitch because in that case they would have nuked them and fried the robots before or after stupid about turning off their god mode.

Which one? I didn't whine about the first movie. Hell, I wasn't even on this site when the first movie came out. I think you're classing me as part of a category of people that exist more in your mind than in reality. And, for that matter, listening to a version of my argument that exists more in your mind than it does on the thread.

As I said before, I don't want Transformers invulnerable to everything smaller than a nuke. Ideally, I'd want them tough enough to be destroyed by concentrated antitank fire, but with that being about the minimum required. Say, the way an elephant would be to standard rifle bullets. You could kill an elephant with 30-.06, but it's going to take a while unless you know where to aim, are quite good, and (preferably) are shooting at a stationary elephant.

Put an elephant up against one guy with, say, a breechloading small-arms caliber rifle and the elephant will likely win, or at least kill the rifleman. Put an elephant up against a platoon of such riflemen and the platoon wins.

In my ideal version of the movies, score a direct hit with a JDAM or hypersonic railgun round, or sustained fire from more normal antitank weapons, and a Decepticon goes down... but you're not going to one-shot the things unless you get insanely lucky.

[Kane Starkiller]

It's not just about how tough they are but not even using their existing powers to their full extent. Why does Starscream enter into a fistfight with Optimus instead of pummeling him with missiles from the sky?
The filmmamkers chose to be more "realistic" so now Autobots can't fly. Shouldn't that make more massive Starscream stronger than Optimus even in a fistfight? He can reach space under his own power and has an FTL drive while Optimus needs a personal C-17 to get around.
Instead Optimus can take on Starscream AND Megatron AND Blackout, all of which can fly and all of which are more massive than he is, and almost win. It's stupid not merely in storytelling sense but as an action scene.

[Stark]

Remember, their guns do seem to suck. Ironhide and Ratchet etc plinked away at Brawl for ages (when he was stationary) and couldn't kill him as fast as an airstrike killed Blackout.

Turns out having hands that tranform into guns = your guns suck compared to chemical explosives?

[Ford Prefect]

Remember, their guns do seem to suck.

Except for the ones which are fucking incredible, like Blackout's 'tanks go flying through the air' ray gun and Megatron's 'whoops off you go Optimus' gun. I'm also pretty sure Optimus' gun does more damage to Megatron than a hit from an Abrams. Amazingly, the effectiveness of a Transformer is concurrent with the needs of the plot!

[Stark]

I've only seen the first movie, where the only effective weapon I saw was Blackouts smartbomb he never used again. Ratchet's gun is of course a standout in 'totally useless', actually being WORSE than a handheld grenade launcher.

And he's from space.

[Ford Prefect]

Don't you remember Blackout wrecking shit in ... Qatar or wherever? It's just blue shockwave, then everything dies. Hilariously, Ironhide's guns go from having huge output so he can rocket jump over some missiles to useless in like literally four seconds.

[Stark]

Yeah, that's what I called his smartbomb. Clearly he only bought like four of them? After that he's down to shiving people with a fucking helicopter tail rotor. I mean, seriously? He deserved to get blown to shit by tactical aid.

[Vympel]

Of course he was going to try and shiv Optimus with his rotors, what was he going to do, wipe out Megatron with his blue-wave gun as well? He was sneaking up on Megatron and Optimus fighting at the time.

[Stark]

Sorry I forgot it was 'awesome' to have a guy with magical spacebombs and ... no other weapons. More poorly armed than a Humvee? A critical viewer would suggest he could have timed it so Megatron simply flew away leaving Prime vulnerable, but that would just be crazy.

[Vympel]

Sorry I forgot it was 'awesome' to have a guy with magical spacebombs and ... no other weapons. More poorly armed than a Humvee?

He's probably got plenty of guns. The fact remains you don't try and shoot someone who's grappling with your leader at the time.

A critical viewer would suggest he could have timed it so Megatron simply flew away leaving Prime vulnerable, but that would just be crazy.

A critical viewer? I think "nitpicker looking for things to complain about". And Megatron would know that Blackout planned to do this how, exactly? And we know Optimus would've been guaranteed to get hit as opposed to shooting Blackout in the face, how?

[Stark]

So you assume he's got guns based on nothing (well, the game gives him guns, lol) and simply claim that he can't shoot because Megs is too close when they are in constant contact with each other? Come on. Amusingly the stunningly bad accuracy of TF guns does support this idea, lol. Seeing what kind of gun his blade-hand (ps, can't he transform it into a real hand? why not? limits of realistic 8-millino liquid metal squares I guess) would have turned into; it might have been not-useless based on size alone.

It's actually fabulous that you think 'slumps around with shiv then gets blown to bits in a second' is more 'awesome' than 'coordiantes with Megatron to leave Prime facing the wrong way and off-balance to get blown up by powerful spaceguns on biggest TF in movie'. I don't think I'm critical; you're just very UNCRITICAL. Hell, plinknig at Prime without even trying to hit would have distracted him and allowed Megatron to beat the fuck out of Mr Useless Prime even faster. Nah; shiv is better. SO MANY NITPICKZZZ

[Erik von Nein]

And Megatron would know that Blackout planned to do this how, exactly?

Because they have wireless communication? Yeah, they yell at each other a lot, but when Megatron summoned them all he didn't go to each base and personally yell at each Decepticon.

[Vympel]

So you assume he's got guns based on nothing (well, the game gives him guns, lol)

We see him use the guns. A cannon comes out of his chest in Qatar. He fires on the specops team before they attack him just before he goes down.

and simply claim that he can't shoot because Megs is too close when they are in constant contact with each other? Come on. Amusingly the stunningly bad accuracy of TF guns does support this idea, lol. Seeing what kind of gun his blade-hand (ps, can't he transform it into a real hand? why not? limits of realistic 8-millino liquid metal squares I guess) would have turned into; it might have been not-useless based on size alone.

Your appeal to incredulity is just empty. The idea that he should try and shoot Optimus whilst he's grappling with Megatron is just as stupid as proposing that I should shoot an enemy who's in a close quarters fight with my team mate. It's idiotic.

It's actually fabulous that you think 'slumps around with shiv then gets blown to bits in a second' is more 'awesome' than 'coordiantes with Megatron to leave Prime facing the wrong way and off-balance to get blown up by powerful spaceguns on biggest TF in movie'. I don't think I'm critical; you're just very UNCRITICAL. Hell, plinknig at Prime without even trying to hit would have distracted him and allowed Megatron to beat the fuck out of Mr Useless Prime even faster. Nah; shiv is better. SO MANY NITPICKZZZ

Oh please. You're just turning into a caricature of yourself now, which is quite a feat. The scene makes sense, and coming up with umpteen "well why didn't the Decepticons do this OMG SUCKS LOL" just screams "fat nerd having a nitpick".

[Stark]

Grow a dick, fanboy. I'm NOT suggesting anyone shoot anyone while grapping with anyone. Learn to fucking read. It's already been pointed out that the low power and poor accuracy of TF shooting would make this a tiny bit useless.

EDIT - when the issue people are discussing is 'are the TFs weak/strong/effective/whatever', pointing out that Blackout slumps around doing nothing then dies in two seconds to humans is a teeny bit relevant. A more interesting fight (oh shit can robots use radios now amazing, actually using transformations in combat, mindblowing) would have been plot-irrelevant anyway because Blackout was doomed the moment the airforce showed up... which is the point anyway. TF poor weapons is just a sideline.

[Vympel]

Grow a dick, fanboy.

Bite me, cockmunch.

I'm NOT suggesting anyone shoot anyone while grapping with anyone. Learn to fucking read.

Funny, I think anyone with basic reading comprehension can see that this:-

simply claim that he can't shoot because Megs is too close when they are in constant contact with each other? Come on.

Is obviously saying you find the explanation not reasonable. Deal.

Again, you're just being a classic nitpicky nerd- "zomg, why didn't they do this instead of that, omg it's so stupid, that would've been so much more awesome, lol sucks lol!" - Blackout sneaking up on Optimus to gank him whilst he was busy is a reasonable choice for anyone to make, and you're having a rant because Megatron didn't fly off so Blackout could gank him in a different way like ZOMG THE BIGGEST FLAW IN THE UNIVERSE, SUCKS SO HARD.

Give us all a fucking break, for god's sake.

[Vympel]

A further point about Blackout's gun - we have no idea that it was his gun that sent the tank's flying, he could've just as easily tossed them, and his destroying the C-17s isn't exactly surprising - they're probably all filled with jet fuel. There's no reason to believe it's significantly more powerful than Megatron's arm cannon.

[Stark]

Are you a liar, or what? You already quoted me saying Megatron could just fly away if fractricide was an issue. Are you claiming I never said that? Think carefully.

What I'm actually doing is 'thinking'. I know you like to uncritically accept things as 'awesome', but when we're talkiig about how TF guns are poop much of the time (or TF are especially vulnerable to xyz weapon or whatever) Blackout's terrible performance is relevant given his earlier amazing power. Would it make me fatter if I pointed out that shivving someone with a buzzsaw when grappling with your preciuos leader isn't without risk either? What's he doing to do, carefully cut Prime to death slowly? I guess Megs would have knocked him down or off-balance so he could get taken down... but that would be being a nerd, right? lol