Faith Healers given jail terms

[Setzer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8294225.stm

A US couple who prayed rather than seeking medical attention for their dying daughter have been sentenced to six months in jail.
Dale and Leilani Neumann, of Wisconsin, could have received up to 25 years in prison over the 2008 death of Madeline Neumann, who was known as Kara.
The 11-year-old died of an undiagnosed but treatable form of diabetes.
Judge Vincent Howard ordered the couple to serve one month in jail each year for the next six years.
One parent will serve the term in March and the other in September.
The judge told the Neumanns this would give them time to "think about Kara and what God wants you to learn from this".
He added that they were "very good people, raising their family, who made a bad decision, a reckless decision".
He added: "God probably works through other people, some of them doctors."
In addition to the custodial sentence, the Neumanns were also put on 10 years' probation, as part of which they must allow a nurse to examine their two youngest surviving children at least once every three months, and must immediately take their children to a doctor in case of any serious injuries.

Prosecutors said the couple had recklessly killed the youngest of their four children by ignoring clear symptoms of severe illness as she became too weak to speak, eat, drink or walk.
They said the couple had a legal duty to take their daughter to a doctor but had instead relied totally on prayer for healing.
Kara died on the floor of the family's rural home as people surrounded her and prayed. The emergency services were only called after she stopped breathing.
In their defence, the parents said they believed healing came from God, and that they had not expected their daughter to die as they prayed for her.
Jay Kronenwetter, Mr Neumann's lawyer, was asked in a BBC interview if he thought his client had got off lightly.
"My client sees spiritual treatment as the proper medicine and I suspect the people who want harsher punishment see Western medicine as the proper medicine, I guess therein lies the difference," he told the BBC World Service.
"My clients just happen to have a belief that is very outside of our social norm."
The couple are appealing against their convictions.

[Surlethe]

How dare the government infringe on this couple's right to believe and practice their religion!

[Ryan Thunder]

Hah. Good riddance.

[Nathaniel]

Serving one month each year seems like a really weird sentence. Never heard of something like that before, is it common in the US?

[SCRawl]

Serving one month each year seems like a really weird sentence. Never heard of something like that before, is it common in the US?

I've never heard of it either, but I don't exactly spend my days in courtrooms. Perhaps it's a way of making the sentence of a certain length while still allowing the parents to look after their remaining children. It's a rather extreme accommodation, I think; "ordinary" murderers are rarely allowed such consideration, and are almost always imprisoned without regard for their domestic situations.

[General Zod]

Maybe we'll get lucky and this means the case sets a nice precedent to prosecute lunatics who kill their children by refusing them blood transfusions for religious reasons.

[Kodiak]

Serving one month each year seems like a really weird sentence. Never heard of something like that before, is it common in the US?

It somewhat strikes me as a "Scarlet Letter" type punishment- not especially severe but designed to serve as a constant reminder of what their "social beliefs" did to their daughter. Give them 1 month, every year, where all they can do is sit and think about how they allowed their daughter to die needlessly. Sounds kinda like... well... Hell.

[Alferd Packer]

It somewhat strikes me as a "Scarlet Letter" type punishment- not especially severe but designed to serve as a constant reminder of what their "social beliefs" did to their daughter. Give them 1 month, every year, where all they can do is sit and think about how they allowed their daughter to die needlessly. Sounds kinda like... well... Hell.

Hell to you, perhaps. These parents are probably so insane that they're envious that their daughter's already in Heaven. The month in jail is probably a minor inconvenience to them, or even an opportunity to pray without the distractions of modern life.

[Simon_Jester]

How dare the government infringe on this couple's right to believe and practice their religion!

Believe, yes. Practice, no.

It somewhat strikes me as a "Scarlet Letter" type punishment- not especially severe but designed to serve as a constant reminder of what their "social beliefs" did to their daughter. Give them 1 month, every year, where all they can do is sit and think about how they allowed their daughter to die needlessly. Sounds kinda like... well... Hell.

Hell to you, perhaps. These parents are probably so insane that they're envious that their daughter's already in Heaven. The month in jail is probably a minor inconvenience to them, or even an opportunity to pray without the distractions of modern life.

Jail could conceivably serve as a way to forcibly place these people in an environment where they aren't surrounded by other people who agree with this sentiment. Who will say things like "You ass! What the fuck were you thinking!?" when they find out why the parents are in there. They will not be able to escape, and will HAVE to confront not only their own spiritual interpretation of what they've done (suitably reinforced by their entire peer group, which probably goes to the same church), but also the empirical interpretation.

Sort of like an armor-piercing clue hammer.

Though I do agree that it would have been better to just put the other kids under the aegis of child protective services before they end up abused as badly as Kara.

[Zwinmar]

Put the retards in jail and give the kids over to child services.

[General Zod]

Jail could conceivably serve as a way to forcibly place these people in an environment where they aren't surrounded by other people who agree with this sentiment. Who will say things like "You ass! What the fuck were you thinking!?" when they find out why the parents are in there. They will not be able to escape, and will HAVE to confront not only their own spiritual interpretation of what they've done (suitably reinforced by their entire peer group, which probably goes to the same church), but also the empirical interpretation.

I wouldn't count on that very much. Condemning other prisoners for their actions while in jail seems like a good way of getting yourself beaten down pretty fast, so I have a hard time of imagining anyone but the guards doing it.

[lance]

Jail could conceivably serve as a way to forcibly place these people in an environment where they aren't surrounded by other people who agree with this sentiment. Who will say things like "You ass! What the fuck were you thinking!?" when they find out why the parents are in there. They will not be able to escape, and will HAVE to confront not only their own spiritual interpretation of what they've done (suitably reinforced by their entire peer group, which probably goes to the same church), but also the empirical interpretation.

I wouldn't count on that very much. Condemning other prisoners for their actions while in jail seems like a good way of getting yourself beaten down pretty fast, so I have a hard time of imagining anyone but the guards doing it.

I thought that sort of thing didn't apply when it was a crime against a child. I thought that was the one step up from pedophile.

[Themightytom]

Jail could conceivably serve as a way to forcibly place these people in an environment where they aren't surrounded by other people who agree with this sentiment. Who will say things like "You ass! What the fuck were you thinking!?" when they find out why the parents are in there. They will not be able to escape, and will HAVE to confront not only their own spiritual interpretation of what they've done (suitably reinforced by their entire peer group, which probably goes to the same church), but also the empirical interpretation.

I wouldn't count on that very much. Condemning other prisoners for their actions while in jail seems like a good way of getting yourself beaten down pretty fast, so I have a hard time of imagining anyone but the guards doing it.

I thought there was a high rate of conversion in prisons too...

Serving one month each year seems like a really weird sentence. Never heard of something like that before, is it common in the US?

I'm, not a lawyer but i work with a lot of people either serving or having recently completed sentences and I've never heard of a non-consecutive sentence, it seems like it would be pretty inconvenient for thestate actually... and I wonder what it looks like on a background check.

How dare the government infringe on this couple's right to believe and practice their religion!

I definitely agree with the sentiment that the government should intercede when faith practices threaten the health and well being of a child. I don't necesarily think judges need to be come our moral advocates however. he directed the couple to think abouy What God Wants Them To learn????

I have a feeling this could be effectively appealed because he decided to take that approach.

[General Zod]

I thought that sort of thing didn't apply when it was a crime against a child. I thought that was the one step up from pedophile.

I can see them easily spinning this in their favor to make them look like victims of the state.

[salm]

I definitely agree with the sentiment that the government should intercede when faith practices threaten the health and well being of a child. I don't necesarily think judges need to be come our moral advocates however. he directed the couple to think abouy What God Wants Them To learn????

This seems like something a judge would say to very stupid people whom he doesn´t expect to understand anything else. You know, people whose supidity stems from low IQs, basically people who are borderline retarded as opposed people whose stupidity stems from average IQs combined with bad education.

[Hillary]

I wonder what the sentence would have been had these parents been praying to Allah, Zeus or Ganesh?

[wautd]

Hah. Good riddance.

Yeah, for 6 months. Talk about a slap on the wrists

[Archaic`]

I wonder just how difficult it may be for the parents to actually hold down jobs if they're going to have to go to jail a month every year.

[Kodiak]

I definitely agree with the sentiment that the government should intercede when faith practices threaten the health and well being of a child. I don't necesarily think judges need to be come our moral advocates however. he directed the couple to think abouy What God Wants Them To learn????

This seems like something a judge would say to very stupid people whom he doesn´t expect to understand anything else. You know, people whose supidity stems from low IQs, basically people who are borderline retarded as opposed people whose stupidity stems from average IQs combined with bad education.

He definitely seemed to be talking down to the parents, but maybe that's just my own bias coloring his words.

[Lagmonster]

Six months for allowing a child to die an uncomfortable death...fucking disgusting. I can only hope that when the other inmates ask them why they're there, they unrepentantly say, "Oh, I let my child wither and die on the floor, because I didn't feel any responsibility towards helping them". That should balance things out if they're in the right prison.

[Eleas]

Six months for allowing a child to die an uncomfortable death...fucking disgusting. I can only hope that when the other inmates ask them why they're there, they unrepentantly say, "Oh, I let my child wither and die on the floor, because I didn't feel any responsibility towards helping them". That should balance things out if they're in the right prison.

I think you're missing the point. One month every year isn't just a time period you can add up to get equal effect. The deterrence factor here is pretty much irrelevant; no fundie prepared to do this would see this ruling and be discouraged by harsh punishment. Also, they plainly did feel responsibility to help their child; they just did so according to insane logic, not reason. They do not feel the need to repent because they believe they did the right thing.

No, the judgment was clearly intended to send a different message entirely. They can't go back to normal life and wash their hands. But they can't just tough it out (knowing they'll be ignored by the rest of the world), either, as they would have been if they were sent into prison. They'll still be living their normal life, only now, the knowledge that they have to go away a month every year will be a constant reminder, not only to themselves but to their peers and sympathizers. A single stretch of prison time will not be so effective a punishment, as it can be mentally worked around, dismissed or rationalized away. "Yes, I did it because of JAYSUS, and I passed my tribulation hallelujah!" I imagine thoughts of that would be awfully close to an absolution for an offender as crazy as this lot.

This, on the other hand, is acknowledging their acts were not just contemptible but pitiable and irresponsible. And that, instead of having them flogged in the public square, is potentially much more likely to effect a change, not only in them but in people who admire their actions.

[Oskuro]

"My client sees spiritual treatment as the proper medicine and I suspect the people who want harsher punishment see Western medicine as the proper medicine, I guess therein lies the difference," he told the BBC World Service.
"My clients just happen to have a belief that is very outside of our social norm."

Why, yes, letting a sick child die is very outside of our social norm. Wonder why.