Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

SLAM: debunk creationism, pseudoscience, and superstitions. Discuss logic and morality.

Moderator: Alyrium Denryle

User avatar
RedImperator
Roosevelt Republican
Posts: 16465
Joined: 2002-07-11 07:59pm
Location: Delaware
Contact:

Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

Post by RedImperator »

PeZook wrote:
Serafina wrote:Mostly because crucifing was not used during the middle ages - it being used on jesus and all that.
They used other methods instead.
Yeah, many of them terribly bloody. That's all you really need to fake a shroud, especially if you're a town executioner and can do whatever with the body once it's been properly abused in public.
The primary methods of execution in the middle ages were hanging, burning, beheading, and drawing/quartering. None of those would produce wounds that look remotely like crucification. The closest I can see is taking a body that had been hanged, driving nails through the wrists and feet (along with other wounds to correspond with Christ's), and wrapping that in cloth.
Image
Any city gets what it admires, will pay for, and, ultimately, deserves…We want and deserve tin-can architecture in a tinhorn culture. And we will probably be judged not by the monuments we build but by those we have destroyed.--Ada Louise Huxtable, "Farewell to Penn Station", New York Times editorial, 30 October 1963
X-Ray Blues
User avatar
Frank Hipper
Overfiend of the Superego
Posts: 12882
Joined: 2002-10-17 08:48am
Location: Hamilton, Ohio?

Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

Post by Frank Hipper »

You're forgetting being broken and braided on the wheel, Red; that's crucifixion with different carpentry.
Image
Life is all the eternity you get, use it wisely.
User avatar
Darth Holbytlan
Padawan Learner
Posts: 405
Joined: 2007-01-18 12:20am
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

Post by Darth Holbytlan »

It seems like every few years a new article comes out about someone finally explaining how the Shroud of Turin was reproduced. It inevitably claims that scientists haven't been able to explain it, ignoring the fact that it has been explained for over a quarter century now. (Basically, a pressing of a pigmented bas-relief model of Jesus with "blood" done in egg tempra.)

The technique described in the article has the same failings as any method based on a real human body. The shroud image has odd proportions that don't match a real human being, but doesn't show the expected distortions from flattening a cloth laid over a three-dimensional object. This also knocks out the executed prisoner hypothesis.

Mostly from memory, here is a quick run down of the problems with the shroud:
  1. Shroud carbon dates to the mid-14th century.
  2. Tests indicate presence of artist pigments.
  3. The "blood" doesn't test or act like real blood. e.g. It didn't turn black like real blood as it ages.
  4. The anatomy of the image is suspect.
  5. The image is inconsistent with an impression from a real 3D object.
  6. The shroud does not correctly represent 1st century Jewish burial practices. e.g. Jesus should have all his hair shaved off.
  7. The textile uses a herringbone weave unknown in the 1st century, but popular in the 14th.
  8. The shroud's provenance stops at the mid-14th century.
  9. A church investigator from the 14th century reports finding the original artist, who confessed to him.
See also The Skeptic's Dictionary for a quick overview, or Joe Nickell's Inquest on the Shroud of Turin for more detailed coverage. The latter is a bit old, so it won't cover the more recent bullshitcounterarguments from the faithful.
User avatar
Vendetta
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10895
Joined: 2002-07-07 04:57pm
Location: Sheffield, UK

Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

Post by Vendetta »

Darth Holbytlan wrote: [*]A church investigator from the 14th century reports finding the original artist, who confessed to him.[/list]
Additionally the Pope at the time, Pope Clement, denounced it as a forgery.
User avatar
Spoonist
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 2405
Joined: 2002-09-20 11:15am

Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

Post by Spoonist »

PeZook wrote:
Zixinus wrote:And what if the forger is Muslim?
Then it obviously doesn't apply.
Again showing your modern cultural bias. Muslims would also have considered that a blasphemy, JC being a prophet in their religion as well. That concept was very strong in this time period.
This is especially so since muslims did not have the same affinity for forging relics as the christian monestaries. Maybe because lots of relics where "rescued" from the heathen muslims during the crusades.
User avatar
PeZook
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 13237
Joined: 2002-07-18 06:08pm
Location: Poland

Re: Italian scientist reproduces Shroud of Turin

Post by PeZook »

Spoonist wrote: Again showing your modern cultural bias. Muslims would also have considered that a blasphemy, JC being a prophet in their religion as well. That concept was very strong in this time period.
D'oh!

Yeah, I really should've remembered that little bit. Heh.
Image
JULY 20TH 1969 - The day the entire world was looking up

It suddenly struck me that that tiny pea, pretty and blue, was the Earth. I put up my thumb and shut one eye, and my thumb blotted out the planet Earth. I didn't feel like a giant. I felt very, very small.
- NEIL ARMSTRONG, MISSION COMMANDER, APOLLO 11

Signature dedicated to the greatest achievement of mankind.

MILDLY DERANGED PHYSICIST does not mind BREAKING the SOUND BARRIER, because it is INSURED. - Simon_Jester considering the problems of hypersonic flight for Team L.A.M.E.
Post Reply