DUNE versus STAR WARS
Moderator: NecronLord
- Trytostaydead
- Sith Marauder
- Posts: 3690
- Joined: 2003-01-28 09:34pm
DUNE versus STAR WARS
Let's say Star Wars and Dune were parallel universes and Imperial forces crossed over and decided to try to capture the million-some habital worlds in the Corrino Empire. Who would win?
Granted, the weaponary in Dune was never fully explored in any of the novels, with only a hint at the awesome weaponary from the prequels to Dune. It seems like the most blatant overt weapon of mass destruction the Dune universe used were atomics and their derivatives, and biological weapons.
There is also the question of shields. The shields in Dune seemed to have an, allergic reation to laser that unleashes a tremendous amount of energy upon contact. I am not sure as to how house-shields reacted to small arms and such, though I'm guessing it'll be much more deadly to the attacker than the House that it protects otherwise we'd have seen those gureilla tactics where one man with a lasgun fires at the house shield instead of Dr. Yueh sabotaging the shields. My only conclusion is that to set off the dangerous subatomic explosions the power output of the lasgun has to be comparable to the size of the shield.
Fleet wise, I don't know if we have much of a comparison. In House Atreides we see some combat pods and later in House Corrino we see that these pods are of comparable size to arm an entire rebellion. Heighleiners are reputed to be incredibly massive and most likely suitably well armed, and artificial moons can be created, the Kronos moon. Shipboard lasguns can lay waste to entire cities at the very least as demonstrated in House Corrino.
The speed of travel is limited by the navigators availability but is much more quicker than Star Wars ships. They can reputedly travel from one end of the universe to another in an instant.
Groundtroops, I don't doubt that the House troopers will kick stormtrooper ass. They are taught more for close quarters combat yet are still quite effective at ranged fighting. After the Butlerian Jihad almost everyone's become comparatively, supermen.
If we take the Dune timeline to post Leto II, we will also see no-ships that are invisible and are the most heavily armed ships in the universe, which means that if a cruiser from the time of the Corrinos can lay waste to a city at the very least, what can a no-ship accomplish?
Granted, the weaponary in Dune was never fully explored in any of the novels, with only a hint at the awesome weaponary from the prequels to Dune. It seems like the most blatant overt weapon of mass destruction the Dune universe used were atomics and their derivatives, and biological weapons.
There is also the question of shields. The shields in Dune seemed to have an, allergic reation to laser that unleashes a tremendous amount of energy upon contact. I am not sure as to how house-shields reacted to small arms and such, though I'm guessing it'll be much more deadly to the attacker than the House that it protects otherwise we'd have seen those gureilla tactics where one man with a lasgun fires at the house shield instead of Dr. Yueh sabotaging the shields. My only conclusion is that to set off the dangerous subatomic explosions the power output of the lasgun has to be comparable to the size of the shield.
Fleet wise, I don't know if we have much of a comparison. In House Atreides we see some combat pods and later in House Corrino we see that these pods are of comparable size to arm an entire rebellion. Heighleiners are reputed to be incredibly massive and most likely suitably well armed, and artificial moons can be created, the Kronos moon. Shipboard lasguns can lay waste to entire cities at the very least as demonstrated in House Corrino.
The speed of travel is limited by the navigators availability but is much more quicker than Star Wars ships. They can reputedly travel from one end of the universe to another in an instant.
Groundtroops, I don't doubt that the House troopers will kick stormtrooper ass. They are taught more for close quarters combat yet are still quite effective at ranged fighting. After the Butlerian Jihad almost everyone's become comparatively, supermen.
If we take the Dune timeline to post Leto II, we will also see no-ships that are invisible and are the most heavily armed ships in the universe, which means that if a cruiser from the time of the Corrinos can lay waste to a city at the very least, what can a no-ship accomplish?
-
- Warlock
- Posts: 10285
- Joined: 2002-07-05 02:28am
- Location: Boston
- Contact:
-cocks head- knife weilders vs the combined arms warfare of attack of the clones?
This day is Fantastic!
Myers Briggs: ENTJ
Political Compass: -3/-6
DOOMer WoW
"I really hate it when the guy you were pegging as Mr. Worst Case starts saying, "Oh, I was wrong, it's going to be much worse." " - Adrian Laguna
- Ghost Rider
- Spirit of Vengeance
- Posts: 27779
- Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
- Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars
Ummm....yeah, we had this one...and honestly Dune doesn't stand that much a chance(and to take the Corriono Empire...conquer Arrakis or hold it hostage)
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
- Trytostaydead
- Sith Marauder
- Posts: 3690
- Joined: 2003-01-28 09:34pm
- Patrick Degan
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 14847
- Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
- Location: Orleanian in exile
Just a couple nitpicks:
1) IIRC, lasguns really are lasers, as seen from their effects (Dune: Lasguns deduced from them stitching up the sand, not from a visible beam. Prequels: Lasguns "chop up" the bull that killed Leto's dad). If you go by the original books, Lasguns are REALLY expensive...so much so that their mere presence was a major setback to the Atreides. However, Blasters and Turbolasers are both cheap and NOT LASERS.
2) Blasters and Turbolasers ARE NOT LASERS.
3) Why the hell would a heighleiner be armed? Anybody dumb enough to shoot at one gets transport cut off forever...aka, suicide.
4) Blasters and Turbolasers ARE NOT LASERS.
1) IIRC, lasguns really are lasers, as seen from their effects (Dune: Lasguns deduced from them stitching up the sand, not from a visible beam. Prequels: Lasguns "chop up" the bull that killed Leto's dad). If you go by the original books, Lasguns are REALLY expensive...so much so that their mere presence was a major setback to the Atreides. However, Blasters and Turbolasers are both cheap and NOT LASERS.
2) Blasters and Turbolasers ARE NOT LASERS.
3) Why the hell would a heighleiner be armed? Anybody dumb enough to shoot at one gets transport cut off forever...aka, suicide.
4) Blasters and Turbolasers ARE NOT LASERS.
Pi R squared. Nooo! Pie R round, cornbread R square!
"Your beliefs color your perception with a bias towards reinforcing your beliefs."
--EOTN
"And your beliefs colour your perception with a bias towards being completely batshit insane"
--Fron, in response to EOTN
"Your beliefs color your perception with a bias towards reinforcing your beliefs."
--EOTN
"And your beliefs colour your perception with a bias towards being completely batshit insane"
--Fron, in response to EOTN
*rereads*
I thought you were trying to say that Blasters would set off a shield. Regardless, making a big boom with a lasgun-shield interaction does NOT necessarily mean a large power level for the lasgun. The lasgun only has to put out enough power to seriously fuck up the shield which, as far as I can tell, is pretty easy to do.
If you meant to say that "they could put shields down and then shoot them", why don't they do that in the books? There's one instance of using a shield-lasgun explosion as a booby-trap, but as overly-complex minefields or grenades? Once again, in the originals, lasguns were rare (something that REALLY pissed me off about the prequels).
I thought you were trying to say that Blasters would set off a shield. Regardless, making a big boom with a lasgun-shield interaction does NOT necessarily mean a large power level for the lasgun. The lasgun only has to put out enough power to seriously fuck up the shield which, as far as I can tell, is pretty easy to do.
If you meant to say that "they could put shields down and then shoot them", why don't they do that in the books? There's one instance of using a shield-lasgun explosion as a booby-trap, but as overly-complex minefields or grenades? Once again, in the originals, lasguns were rare (something that REALLY pissed me off about the prequels).
Pi R squared. Nooo! Pie R round, cornbread R square!
"Your beliefs color your perception with a bias towards reinforcing your beliefs."
--EOTN
"And your beliefs colour your perception with a bias towards being completely batshit insane"
--Fron, in response to EOTN
"Your beliefs color your perception with a bias towards reinforcing your beliefs."
--EOTN
"And your beliefs colour your perception with a bias towards being completely batshit insane"
--Fron, in response to EOTN
- Captain tycho
- Has Elected to Receive
- Posts: 5039
- Joined: 2002-12-04 06:35pm
- Location: Jewy McJew Land
Eliminate the spice, and you also kill trillions of people who are hooked on it, plus disable the entire galactic economy.Patrick Degan wrote:The war opens with a Death Star attack on Arrakis. Eliminate the spice, and you eliminate the Navigators and the entire basis for galactic travel in the Dune galaxy.
Captain Tycho!
The worst fucker ever!
The Best reciever ever!
The worst fucker ever!
The Best reciever ever!
- Ghost Rider
- Spirit of Vengeance
- Posts: 27779
- Joined: 2002-09-24 01:48pm
- Location: DC...looking up from the gutters to the stars
Thi nking too hard Iggy.
A bunch of water in some cargo ships, raining on all of Arrakis
A bunch of water in some cargo ships, raining on all of Arrakis
MM /CF/WG/BOTM/JL/Original Warsie/ACPATHNTDWATGODW FOREVER!!
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
Sometimes we can choose the path we follow. Sometimes our choices are made for us. And sometimes we have no choice at all
Saying and doing are chocolate and concrete
- Patrick Degan
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 14847
- Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
- Location: Orleanian in exile
Hate to say this, but I doubt the Empire would care.Captain tycho wrote:Eliminate the spice, and you also kill trillions of people who are hooked on it, plus disable the entire galactic economy.Patrick Degan wrote:The war opens with a Death Star attack on Arrakis. Eliminate the spice, and you eliminate the Navigators and the entire basis for galactic travel in the Dune galaxy.
- EmperorMing
- Sith Devotee
- Posts: 3432
- Joined: 2002-09-09 05:08am
- Location: The Lizard Lounge
It is too easy a solution. BDZ or Deathstar the planet. The whole empire in the Dune galaxy collapses and milions of people die. Almost as easy as pushing a button.Patrick Degan wrote:Hate to say this, but I doubt the Empire would care.Captain tycho wrote:Eliminate the spice, and you also kill trillions of people who are hooked on it, plus disable the entire galactic economy.Patrick Degan wrote:The war opens with a Death Star attack on Arrakis. Eliminate the spice, and you eliminate the Navigators and the entire basis for galactic travel in the Dune galaxy.
DILLIGAF: Does It Look Like I Give A Fuck
Kill your God!
oh good, wong should have a field day with this one.
another Dune vs SW thread
another Dune vs SW thread
<middle finger> Fuck political correctness </middle finger>
"Most people are of average intelligence." ~ Wicked Pilot (I happen to disagree)
Anti-PETA / Anti-Facist League
PROUD to be a Libertarian-American-Warmongering-Warsie-Asshole, Thank you.
"Most people are of average intelligence." ~ Wicked Pilot (I happen to disagree)
Anti-PETA / Anti-Facist League
PROUD to be a Libertarian-American-Warmongering-Warsie-Asshole, Thank you.
- Trytostaydead
- Sith Marauder
- Posts: 3690
- Joined: 2003-01-28 09:34pm
- Captain tycho
- Has Elected to Receive
- Posts: 5039
- Joined: 2002-12-04 06:35pm
- Location: Jewy McJew Land
No, I'm saying the Empire could use this as a viable strategy.Patrick Degan wrote:Hate to say this, but I doubt the Empire would care.Captain tycho wrote:Eliminate the spice, and you also kill trillions of people who are hooked on it, plus disable the entire galactic economy.Patrick Degan wrote:The war opens with a Death Star attack on Arrakis. Eliminate the spice, and you eliminate the Navigators and the entire basis for galactic travel in the Dune galaxy.
Threaten to eliminate the spice, and you'll have the entire galaxy at your feet.
Captain Tycho!
The worst fucker ever!
The Best reciever ever!
The worst fucker ever!
The Best reciever ever!
Let me see if I have this right:
Empire has the advantage in numbers, worlds, industrial capacity, ground equipment, and AFAIK weapons power. Not to mention several different types of superweapons.
And you think dune would win?
And Imperial army vs Dune groundpounders has been done. Imperials kicked their asses. Peace through superior firepower baby.
Empire has the advantage in numbers, worlds, industrial capacity, ground equipment, and AFAIK weapons power. Not to mention several different types of superweapons.
And you think dune would win?
And Imperial army vs Dune groundpounders has been done. Imperials kicked their asses. Peace through superior firepower baby.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
- Patrick Degan
- Emperor's Hand
- Posts: 14847
- Joined: 2002-07-15 08:06am
- Location: Orleanian in exile
Eliminate Arrakis, and you have the galaxy at your feet. And without all the tedious waiting around for the enemy's surrender, either.Captain tycho wrote:No, I'm saying the Empire could use this as a viable strategy.Patrick Degan wrote:Hate to say this, but I doubt the Empire would care.Captain tycho wrote: Eliminate the spice, and you also kill trillions of people who are hooked on it, plus disable the entire galactic economy.
Threaten to eliminate the spice, and you'll have the entire galaxy at your feet.
- AdmiralKanos
- Lex Animata
- Posts: 2648
- Joined: 2002-07-02 11:36pm
- Location: Toronto, Ontario
Without computerized fire control systems, I can't imagine that Dune starships would even be able to HIT an Imperial starship, never mind doing any damage (the ability to destroy a city with one lasgun shot indicates megaton-range firepower; the ability to wipe out whole continental nations with one shot indicates heavy turbolaser firepower; there is no comparison).
And Arrakis is simply the biggest strategic weakness that the Dune civilization could possibly have. Not that the Empire would even need to use the Death Star; the Dune civilization does not have planetary shields.
One ISD could destroy the entire infrastructure of the Dune empire with a single BDZ operation.
And Arrakis is simply the biggest strategic weakness that the Dune civilization could possibly have. Not that the Empire would even need to use the Death Star; the Dune civilization does not have planetary shields.
One ISD could destroy the entire infrastructure of the Dune empire with a single BDZ operation.
For a time, I considered sparing your wretched little planet Cybertron.
But now, you shall witnesss ... its dismemberment!
"This is what happens when you use trivia napkins for research material"- Sea Skimmer on "Pearl Harbour".
"Do you work out? Your hands are so strong! Especially the right one!"- spoken to Bud Bundy
But now, you shall witnesss ... its dismemberment!
"This is what happens when you use trivia napkins for research material"- Sea Skimmer on "Pearl Harbour".
"Do you work out? Your hands are so strong! Especially the right one!"- spoken to Bud Bundy
How about you post some numbers?Trytostaydead wrote:How about post-Leto II reign when the universe is not dependent on spice for travel, when they have Ixian machines to do a navigators work. Fleets of no-ships. And nymphomaniacs galore!
Seriously, the GE has stuff that can wipe out Dune before theyt even know what hits them. Your entire argument has been an expression of fanboyism so far. Put up or shut up.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
Question: I recall there being ONE no-ship, but have not read House Corrino or Butlerian Jihad yet. Do either of those books show more than ONE no-ship?
Pi R squared. Nooo! Pie R round, cornbread R square!
"Your beliefs color your perception with a bias towards reinforcing your beliefs."
--EOTN
"And your beliefs colour your perception with a bias towards being completely batshit insane"
--Fron, in response to EOTN
"Your beliefs color your perception with a bias towards reinforcing your beliefs."
--EOTN
"And your beliefs colour your perception with a bias towards being completely batshit insane"
--Fron, in response to EOTN
- Trytostaydead
- Sith Marauder
- Posts: 3690
- Joined: 2003-01-28 09:34pm
Yes Ender. It IS fanboyism. I would like to see two universes that I love duke it out in some person's wild flight of imagination. This was a "what if" section buddy, not a tally.Ender wrote:How about you post some numbers?Trytostaydead wrote:How about post-Leto II reign when the universe is not dependent on spice for travel, when they have Ixian machines to do a navigators work. Fleets of no-ships. And nymphomaniacs galore!
Seriously, the GE has stuff that can wipe out Dune before theyt even know what hits them. Your entire argument has been an expression of fanboyism so far. Put up or shut up.
And it was not an argument.
As for #'s, I would have no idea where to get #'s for the Dune universe. The best estimates from the books are given that there are about a million worlds in the Corrino Empire. Though it is given that there are far more outside that is the source of danger and sanctuary for renegade Houses.
For estimation, the Guild is given to employ billions just to service their ships on Junction. The Ixians would also employ probably at least millions to build a Heighleiner. These ships are given dimensions large enough to transport almost an entire House and have some room for more. In Dune, it seemed like House Atreides left in two groups. An advanced party and then the rest of the household. Though I would assume the advanced party was just a portion of their House troops to secure the area for the Ducal family.
For at least Imperial battleships, five heighleiners were needed to transport a relatively small amount of ships to Arrakis. The Emperor's "tent" on Arrakis contained at least five legions of Sardaukar and their accompanying servants and women and the Imperial court.
At least one artificial moon is mentioned, the Kronos Laboratories. If they built one for research, it is not unconceivable that they could build one for defense or offense purposes, or at least on that scale.
The numbers in the book about population and military losses were actually quite small since they dealt with only Arrakis. However, you have to remember that Arrakis has a small population (10 million), and the Harkonnen and Sardaukar had plenty more worlds to control and probably only proportionaly deployed a small fraction of their numbers.
- Trytostaydead
- Sith Marauder
- Posts: 3690
- Joined: 2003-01-28 09:34pm
Past God: Emperor of Dune there are butt loads of no-ships flying around. Artificial spice flows freely. Ixian machines can naviage space-fold.Artanis wrote:Question: I recall there being ONE no-ship, but have not read House Corrino or Butlerian Jihad yet. Do either of those books show more than ONE no-ship?
- Captain tycho
- Has Elected to Receive
- Posts: 5039
- Joined: 2002-12-04 06:35pm
- Location: Jewy McJew Land
- AdmiralKanos
- Lex Animata
- Posts: 2648
- Joined: 2002-07-02 11:36pm
- Location: Toronto, Ontario
Could you provide quotes, please? This board is attached to a website which provides quotes and pictures to substantiate everything it says. Your statements, on the other hand, are vaguely referenced to "the books", which is inadequate to say the least.Trytostaydead wrote:As for #'s, I would have no idea where to get #'s for the Dune universe. The best estimates from the books are given that there are about a million worlds in the Corrino Empire. Though it is given that there are far more outside that is the source of danger and sanctuary for renegade Houses.
The use of huge amounts of manpower does not necessarily indicate anything beyond a labour-intensive manufacturing technique.For estimation, the Guild is given to employ billions just to service their ships on Junction. The Ixians would also employ probably at least millions to build a Heighleiner.
Have they ever stolen one planet's oceans and moved them to another?For at least Imperial battleships, five heighleiners were needed to transport a relatively small amount of ships to Arrakis. The Emperor's "tent" on Arrakis contained at least five legions of Sardaukar and their accompanying servants and women and the Imperial court.
How big was this moon, could it move, and what special capabilities does it have?At least one artificial moon is mentioned, the Kronos Laboratories. If they built one for research, it is not unconceivable that they could build one for defense or offense purposes, or at least on that scale.
Even if you multiply them by 500, it wouldn't add up to squat.The numbers in the book about population and military losses were actually quite small since they dealt with only Arrakis. However, you have to remember that Arrakis has a small population (10 million), and the Harkonnen and Sardaukar had plenty more worlds to control and probably only proportionaly deployed a small fraction of their numbers.
The Duniverse has four main problems, as I see it:
- Dependence on the spice. You describe an era in which this is irrelevant; when does this take place, and who are the Ixians? Not everyone has read any Dune book besides Dune itself.
- Rules of battle. By the time they realize that the Empire disregards all of their rules, it will be too late.
- No planetary shield systems.
- Inferior firepower.
For a time, I considered sparing your wretched little planet Cybertron.
But now, you shall witnesss ... its dismemberment!
"This is what happens when you use trivia napkins for research material"- Sea Skimmer on "Pearl Harbour".
"Do you work out? Your hands are so strong! Especially the right one!"- spoken to Bud Bundy
But now, you shall witnesss ... its dismemberment!
"This is what happens when you use trivia napkins for research material"- Sea Skimmer on "Pearl Harbour".
"Do you work out? Your hands are so strong! Especially the right one!"- spoken to Bud Bundy