The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[Stuart]

Interesting view of the IDF by the way. Is it really that bad?

In a command sense yes, they are that slipshod and negligent. It's not so much lack of ability as a conceptual problem; they tend to see staff-work as being boring administrivia dictated by a bunch of hide-bound reactionaries who are incurably wedded to ways of the past. So, while in most European Armies, the staff are the best of the best, in the Israeli Army they tend to be the ones who couldn't get a job doing anything else.

The IDF is a conscript military that happens to be about an order of magnitude better than it's neighbors in doing stuff. Because they've never fought any comparable countries, they have a bit of institutional cockiness that causes them to be weak in some areas.

I think it's a bit more fundamental than that. The Israeli Army is essentiallyy a European army, on a very basicl level it thinks and works like any other European Army. They're probably the worst of the real European Armies and they would get a dreadful thrashing if they ever stood up against one of the better European armies (like the Dutch for example). What the British or Australians would do to them is horrible to contemplate. However, all the armies that surround them are Arab armies, they think and work like Arab armies which is effectively to say they don't really do either. I read a very good article once (it is on the web somewhere) written by a U.S. officer who tried to work with one Arab Army. It illustrated the fundamental points very well. As an example, when manuals for the M1 tanks were translated into Arabic and distributed, the Arab officers collected them and destroyed them. Why? Because without manuals, the crews would have to ask them what to do if something went wrong. Much more like that. Essentially, (speaking about Army styles at a conceptual level) the best Arab Army is far less combat effective than the worst European Army. Napoleon had it right in his famous quote comparing Mamelukes to French soldiers. So the Israelis have had it pretty easy and they've picked up a lot of very bad habits. Their strategic direction is lousy, their target discrimination is worse and their blue-on-blue rate is horrendous. Their field security is atrocious; a decent EW unit would (and do) have field days with them. One of their worst habits is that they have grown to take for granted that the superior performance of their units in the field will make up for deficiences elsewhere.

[Setzer]

http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars

Is this the one you're talking about? It mentions the anecdote with the tank manuals.

[Valiran]

Interesting view of the IDF by the way. Is it really that bad?

In a command sense yes, they are that slipshod and negligent. It's not so much lack of ability as a conceptual problem; they tend to see staff-work as being boring administrivia dictated by a bunch of hide-bound reactionaries who are incurably wedded to ways of the past. So, while in most European Armies, the staff are the best of the best, in the Israeli Army they tend to be the ones who couldn't get a job doing anything else.

The IDF is a conscript military that happens to be about an order of magnitude better than it's neighbors in doing stuff. Because they've never fought any comparable countries, they have a bit of institutional cockiness that causes them to be weak in some areas.

I think it's a bit more fundamental than that. The Israeli Army is essentiallyy a European army, on a very basicl level it thinks and works like any other European Army. They're probably the worst of the real European Armies and they would get a dreadful thrashing if they ever stood up against one of the better European armies (like the Dutch for example). What the British or Australians would do to them is horrible to contemplate. However, all the armies that surround them are Arab armies, they think and work like Arab armies which is effectively to say they don't really do either. I read a very good article once (it is on the web somewhere) written by a U.S. officer who tried to work with one Arab Army. It illustrated the fundamental points very well. As an example, when manuals for the M1 tanks were translated into Arabic and distributed, the Arab officers collected them and destroyed them. Why? Because without manuals, the crews would have to ask them what to do if something went wrong. Much more like that. Essentially, (speaking about Army styles at a conceptual level) the best Arab Army is far less combat effective than the worst European Army. Napoleon had it right in his famous quote comparing Mamelukes to French soldiers. So the Israelis have had it pretty easy and they've picked up a lot of very bad habits. Their strategic direction is lousy, their target discrimination is worse and their blue-on-blue rate is horrendous. Their field security is atrocious; a decent EW unit would (and do) have field days with them. One of their worst habits is that they have grown to take for granted that the superior performance of their units in the field will make up for deficiences elsewhere.

I see, thank you for that info Stuart, very enlightening. So then, what is your opinion of the Merkava tank?

And would someone please tell me whether or not Uriel got impaled on a cathedral spire?

[JN1]

It would be interesting to see what might happen if the IDF ever sent a contingent to the NTC, or BATUS.

[tortieconspiracy]

And would someone please tell me whether or not Uriel got impaled on a cathedral spire?

You could always Google it yourself, but I looked it up out of curiosity and it appears that he got impaled on this:


It's not technically a cathedral, but it is a religious building.

[GrayAnderson]

I'm not sure what's a better image: Uriel on the spire or Uriel on the cross.

And no, I really don't feel much sympathy for him. As much as I confess I admire his loyalty to his superiors, I am hard-pressed to feel much sympathy for him, even at the end...but then again, I think my view of him is unusually low insofar as what he does for a "living", as it were.

[LoofahBoy]

Q-q-q-q-questions!

1) Out of curiosity, just how big are the Angels and Daemons? The impression I'm getting is that Daemons and the higher angels like Uriel are about twelve feet tall.

2) What is the origin of the "Orcs" from the first story? Why haven't they found mention in Panthenocide?

3) And what happens to previous evolutions of man, like Cro Magnon? Do they go to hell?

4) Also, one of the Daemons from the first story spoke of earlier "ancient races" deep in the depths in Hell. What are these? Sentient dinosaurs?

5) Would Uriel cut up and wrapped in rice technically count as Sushi?

[Junghalli]

1) Out of curiosity, just how big are the Angels and Daemons? The impression I'm getting is that Daemons and the higher angels like Uriel are about twelve feet tall.

I think he's quite a bit bigger. The Heralds at the beginning of Armageddon were bigger than fighter aircraft and Uriel was twice their size.

3) And what happens to previous evolutions of man, like Cro Magnon? Do they go to hell?

4) Also, one of the Daemons from the first story spoke of earlier "ancient races" deep in the depths in Hell. What are these? Sentient dinosaurs?

I think maybe the "ancient races" are prehuman hominids. I could be wrong though. BTW Cro-Magnons were anatomically modern humans.

5) Would Uriel cut up and wrapped in rice technically count as Sushi?

Isn't sushi usually fish? If there's mammal-based sushi dishes I guess it could count.

[Valiran]

And would someone please tell me whether or not Uriel got impaled on a cathedral spire?

You could always Google it yourself, but I looked it up out of curiosity and it appears that he got impaled on this:


It's not technically a cathedral, but it is a religious building.

Thank you.

[Ilya Muromets]

5) Would Uriel cut up and wrapped in rice technically count as Sushi?

Isn't sushi usually fish? If there's mammal-based sushi dishes I guess it could count.

Well, no, I don't recall any sushi made with non-seafood meat. The closest one I can think of Shikasashi, or deer meat sashimi.

[Darth Yan]

Is Azrael going to feature in the story? I read that in the Old Testament he was the one who slaughtered the 1st born of egypt. It would be interesting to have him go on trial for doing that, or just see what role that individual has in the story, and whether his powers are like Uriel's (I read that he absorbs souls into this apple, and others he just cuts down).

[Chris OFarrell]

You're sending Aussie F-111 pilots into combat?

Dude, those guys are frigen NUTS!

[tortieconspiracy]

Q-q-q-q-questions!

1) Out of curiosity, just how big are the Angels and Daemons? The impression I'm getting is that Daemons and the higher angels like Uriel are about twelve feet tall.

“The first are the flying Baldricks we shot down off California. They’re the same ones that were whacked in Singapore and Bangkok. Working on camera gun footage from the F-18s, we can size them at around 30 feet long from tip of horns to root of tail with a wingspan of around 60 feet.” Warner gestured and a picture was projected onto the screen at the end of the Cabinet Room. “As you can see, they look rather like the traditional depiction of a demon or a cartoon devil. Horns, tail pointed beard. Two arms, two legs, two wings. This raises an interesting point, the combination of weight and musculature mean these things can’t possibly fly.”

So if Uriel is twice as tall, that makes him at least 60 feet (we don't know how long the Herald's legs are), with a wingspan probably greater than 120 feet.

2) What is the origin of the "Orcs" from the first story? Why haven't they found mention in Panthenocide?

I don't think that was ever made clear, but it's been implied that they pre-date the Daemons in Hell and just might be the original inhabitants. I suspect that they haven't been mentioned in Pantheocide because most of the action is centered on Earth, and the few scenes in Hell so far have been in predominantly human areas and mostly focused on the war effort.

[Stuart]

http://www.meforum.org/441/why-arabs-lose-wars Is this the one you're talking about? It mentions the anecdote with the tank manuals.

That's the one; thank you very much for unearthing it. There's a wealth of information in there.

So then, what is your opinion of the Merkava tank?

I'm not a tank specialist so I would defer to other people in my company who are on that. The general consensus appears to be that it's a reasonably workmanlike vehicle.

And would someone please tell me whether or not Uriel got impaled on a cathedral spire?

Well, what's left of him got impaled on what's left of one. (It's not actually a cathederal).

Out of curiosity, just how big are the Angels and Daemons? The impression I'm getting is that Daemons and the higher angels like Uriel are about twelve feet tall.

About four to five times that. The lowest grades of angels/daemons are about human size and they go up from there.

What is the origin of the "Orcs" from the first story? Why haven't they found mention in Panthenocide?

They are the original pre-supervolcano blast inhabitants of Hell, conquered and enslaved by the daemons. They haven't turned up in Pantheocide because they aren't really needed.

And what happens to previous evolutions of man, like Cro Magnon? Do they go to hell?

Yes

Also, one of the Daemons from the first story spoke of earlier "ancient races" deep in the depths in Hell. What are these? Sentient dinosaurs?

No, inhabitants from other worlds like Earth that were overrun, enslaved and gradually wiped out.

Would Uriel cut up and wrapped in rice technically count as Sushi?

There's mention that the Japanese tried sushi made from daemons but it's probable that the Japanese Ambassador was joking. I've had sushi made with egg and various vegetables but I think angelic sushi would be pushing one's luck. Anyway, there's far more important uses for Uriel's body.

[Gil Hamilton]

Hey, man, sushi just refers to the rice. It's all about how you PREPARE the daemon and what cut you use that makes the daemon sushi. I imagine you could talk a Japanese whaling ship "oceanographic research vessel" to grab a Leviathan or two to see if they taste better. It's not THAT much weirder than eating blowfish, after all.

[Pelranius]

5) Would Uriel cut up and wrapped in rice technically count as Sushi?

Isn't sushi usually fish? If there's mammal-based sushi dishes I guess it could count.

Well, no, I don't recall any sushi made with non-seafood meat. The closest one I can think of Shikasashi, or deer meat sashimi.

Does the Spam on sushi rice in Hawaii count?

[Simon_Jester]

Cro-Magnon man was our species; Neanderthals were enough like us that they can sanely be classed as a subspecies (may or may not have been able to interbreed, but they showed a lot of the same behaviors and may very well have been able to speak), so having some of them turn up in an afterlife that accepts modern humans wouldn't surprise me.

But how far back would it go? I mean, I'd be pretty stunned to find ramapithecines in Hell, because there aren't any chimps.

[Gil Hamilton]

Isn't sushi usually fish? If there's mammal-based sushi dishes I guess it could count.

Sushi primer.

Sushi is refers to a foodstuff made of su-meshi, which is a kind of short grain rice prepared with vinegar and seasoning. Anything with this rice mixture is sushi.

Sashimi is cuts of raw or very GENTLY seared fresh fish. Sashimi and sushi are very often served together, but not always.

There is no reason you can't make mammal based sushi meals (the Japanese do, even somewhat illegally, since they are very found of cetacean which they are theoretically forbidden to hunt). I've heard of steak tartare being used with sushi rice before, but haven't had it.

[PainRack]

Shouldn’t be any worse then the world wars as far as I can see. I mean we kept transportation going fine even though in each world war the U-boats sank a large fraction of all the ships that existed on the entire planet upon the outbreak of war. No sea lanes are physically denied to shipping by enemy air bases or surface ships either.

Those wars however did not occur in the modern context of just in time logistics schedule and a railway disruption DID cause widespread famine in India during WW2. In the context of the Salvation war, Earth is being battered by massive storm patterns and environmental attacks, each which would disrupt logistics, manufacturing and food production.

Jamesfirecat point on portals though.......... didn't think about that.

Food shortages will not be a major strategic problem, a huge portion of the worlds grain supply is currently fed to livestock for meat and milk production both of which would be rationed. Since a cow takes 10 pounds of grain to make 1 pound of meat, the potential for conserving food is enormous. This will be vital since we also need to conserve fertilizer as we need the chemicals to make explosives. Poor countries are in some cases probably better off not worse now because with a global mobilized war effort aid is no longer limited by tiny budget allocations from first world nations. Areas heavily dependent on fishing would be the main troublespots.

Ah...... meatless days again:D

It’d also be easy to see mass movements of third world labor into first world nations to help keep up food production in the face of local labor and fuel shortages. We should also consider the vast potential for growing food in hell. The demons apparently must do so on a very large scale to support a totally meat based diet, and with constant volcanic activity the soil should be very rich.

A story begs to be told here about immigration and its impact on societies. Especially as rationing restrict resources to affluent communities just as the working poor move into communities and absorb up scarce fuel, public transport and medical resources.

[Shroom Man 777]

Importing volcanic soil to improve Earth agriculture!

[Darth Yan]

why would the angel's hijack a nuclear sub?

[Samuel]

why would the angel's hijack a nuclear sub?

Because that way you can get access to fully operation nuclear bombs. You could steal them from Soviet silos, but without maintainance and with time they would be useless. This way most of the warheads are live.

[Baughn]

Wait, you think angels could control a nuclear submarine? Or any complex vehicle?

I'll admit I have no personal experience with them, but at first glance that seems like the silliest idea yet. Though, the angels might not know that.

[Samuel]

Wait, you think angels could control a nuclear submarine? Or any complex vehicle?

I'll admit I have no personal experience with them, but at first glance that seems like the silliest idea yet. Though, the angels might not know that.

Don't they have mind control powers?

[Ryan Thunder]

I'm wondering how they'd *fit* in there, myself, given the sizes we've been talking about.

Don't they already select for shorter crew members?