Obama to end military gay policy

[Samuel]

Well if political capital is so important, why doesn't he roll back gay rights- wouldn't that get him even more support from the mindless middle and convince them that he isn't a radical leftist?

Any more groups we can screw over for political capital? I can't think of many that are small enough and hated enough that beating up on them would gain the support of more people.

Or is there some sort of magic difference I'm not seeing?

[Axis Kast]

I can't see Obama spending precious capital on GLBT rights for any reason other than true interest in the cause. Politically speaking, he gains nothing from endorsement of gay marriage, expansion of hate crimes legislation, or repeal of the Don't Ask, Don't Tell policy, even if he will not perhaps lose any significant support which wouldn't already be denied him.

He's doing what he thinks is right. I happen to agree.

[Darth Wong]

Well if political capital is so important, why doesn't he roll back gay rights- wouldn't that get him even more support from the mindless middle and convince them that he isn't a radical leftist?

Who the fuck said that the Mindless Middle would be supportive of a rollback of gay rights? They think that "both sides make good points" on every issue, remember? Are you even bothering to read this thread?

[Samuel]

Bullshit. The opposition against Obama right now is against the man more than it is against his ideas. Most of his most vehement critics don't even know that much about his ideas. It is critically important for him to suppress the widely circulated right-wing notion that he is some kind of radical leftist. This is fucking US politics, not a theoretical debate among rational participants.

[Darth Wong]

Are you proud to be an imbecile or something? Proving that you're a radical right-winger and proving that you're a radical left-winger are equally damaging in the minds of the Mindless Middle. That's the whole goddamned point I was making in my previous point, and which obviously flew right over your head. You seem to think my argument somehow leads to the bizarre conclusion that he could score points with the Mindless Middle by being farther right than George W. Bush on gay rights. That in no way follows from anything I said, you blithering idiot.

[Samuel]

Proving that you're a radical right-winger and proving that you're a radical left-winger are equally damaging in the minds of the Mindless Middle.

Except people aren't accusing Obama of being a radical right winger. It really isn't a problem as long as he is accused of pushing socialism- then they call you a populist.

That's the whole goddamned point I was making in my previous point, and which obviously flew right over your head. You seem to think my argument somehow leads to the bizarre conclusion that he could score points with the Mindless Middle by being farther right than George W. Bush on gay rights. That in no way follows from anything I said, you blithering idiot.

I'm working off the assumption that people tally up the positions rather than decide as a whole rather than being based on issue by issue.

1-2+4, etc rather than liberal+conservative+radical, etc.

If I have a completely wrong assumption of how people think...

Any psychologists here?

[Darth Wong]

I'm working off the assumption that people tally up the positions rather than decide as a whole rather than being based on issue by issue.

1-2+4, etc rather than liberal+conservative+radical, etc.

That's fucking retarded. If Obama did something perceived as right-wing radical, it would be perceived by the Mindless Middle as proof that he's either pandering or bipolar. There is no goddamned way they're going to say "Oh yeah, add up 2L + 3R and I get 1R, so he's actually a moderate".

[Thanas]

No, this isn't a major family values issue.

It sure is considering the 30%ers.

This is a major national defense issue for which there is already ~70+% support amongst the populace on our side.

75% supported healthcare. Now look at it.

Back in June, Obama signing a few protections for federally employed LGBT couples is a much greater family values issue than this is. And that barely raised a vocal stink amongst conservatives.

Because most conservative base members hardly understood what was happening, nor did it gain as much airtime as a DADT repeal would because the later has been far more politicised.

Simply giving better assurances that Obama is going to repeal DADT in a timely manner will not embroil the president into another big fight.

I do believe so and I think that at the moment this is a risk Obama should not take. Healthcare comes first.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

No, this isn't a major family values issue.

It sure is considering the 30%ers.

Do you have any evidence to back that up? The hardest attack from the conservative base on this issue has always been about "military cohesion", NOT "the break down of the family".

This is a major national defense issue for which there is already ~70+% support amongst the populace on our side.

75% supported healthcare. Now look at it.

Assuming there used to be 75% of support for UHC (that's a big assumption considering not everyone understood what health care reform really meant), the conservatives never really pushed this hard until Obama and the Democrats started doing something. And that's also ignoring the fact that the current health care status quo is supported by massive corporate insurance companies with the ability to pour hundreds of millions of dollars into persuading public opinion. You're talking as if I'm advocating Obama and the Democrats tackle DADT with full force right this moment. I'm not. I was just asking Obama to give better assurances in a fucking speech for christ sakes. There's no way in hell conservatives can rally that kind of populous and financial support over a single speech.

Back in June, Obama signing a few protections for federally employed LGBT couples is a much greater family values issue than this is. And that barely raised a vocal stink amongst conservatives.

Because most conservative base members hardly understood what was happening, nor did it gain as much airtime as a DADT repeal would because the later has been far more politicised.

Do you have any evidence that conservatives hardly understood what was happening? It was seen as Obama doing something in response to gay activists complaining about the lack of action from the administration. And it was one of the top stories of the week! Just as much media attention as this 200,000 member LGBT march and Obama's HRC speech.

Simply giving better assurances that Obama is going to repeal DADT in a timely manner will not embroil the president into another big fight.

I do believe so and I think that at the moment this is a risk Obama should not take. Healthcare comes first.

I don't understand this unwavering defense of the president. It almost seems ridiculously silly that someone would think Obama would become embroiled in a massive political fight over making better assurances in a single speech. Ever since the conservatives' successful attack on health care reform, people have almost gotten irrationally paranoid about the right-wing. And I'm not saying that lightly. I know how insidious and effective the right-wing propaganda machine is. But it seems as if it's had a crippling effect on people's psyches. And no one here has the fucking balls make any other progress during this health care fight. For god sakes, I'm talking about one non-binding speech. No, we're willing to tell some of Obama's strongest activists "Fuck off and wait your turn" because we're so fucking scared - of one speech. It makes me sick.

[Darth Wong]

I don't understand this unwavering defense of the president. It almost seems ridiculously silly that someone would think Obama would become embroiled in a massive political fight over making better assurances in a single speech.

Have you been living in a cave for the past six months?

Ever since the conservatives' successful attack on health care reform, people have almost gotten irrationally paranoid about the right-wing.

No, people have merely recognized how irrationally paranoid the right-wing is, and how the so-called "moderates" are unwilling to fully recognize this, which means these right-wing hacks are still influential.

And I'm not saying that lightly. I know how insidious and effective the right-wing propaganda machine is. But it seems as if it's had a crippling effect on people's psyches. And no one here has the fucking balls make any other progress during this health care fight. For god sakes, I'm talking about one non-binding speech. No, we're willing to tell some of Obama's strongest activists "Fuck off and wait your turn" because we're so fucking scared - of one speech. It makes me sick.

Fuck off and wait your turn. Your stupidity makes me sick.

Now you're saying that you actually want an empty platitude which will do no material good whatsoever and which might have negative repercussions on a more important issue, just because your delicate feelings might be hurt by the implication that you are a lesser cause. Well sorry, but you are a lesser cause.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

I don't understand this unwavering defense of the president. It almost seems ridiculously silly that someone would think Obama would become embroiled in a massive political fight over making better assurances in a single speech.

Have you been living in a cave for the past six months?

No, I have not been living in a cave for the past six months. In fact, I've been politically active for the past six months, thank you fucking very much. Most of my political activism has been primarily focused on LGBT issues but I also work with many activists from other organizations that work on many other progressive issues such as women's rights and health care. I'm not fucking oblivious to what's going on.

Ever since the conservatives' successful attack on health care reform, people have almost gotten irrationally paranoid about the right-wing.

No, people have merely recognized how irrationally paranoid the right-wing is, and how the so-called "moderates" are unwilling to fully recognize this, which means these right-wing hacks are still influential.

Really! Well, I'm glad you told me! Because I wouldn't have guessed despite already mentioning that I'm well aware of how effective the right-wing propaganda machine is.

And I'm not saying that lightly. I know how insidious and effective the right-wing propaganda machine is. But it seems as if it's had a crippling effect on people's psyches. And no one here has the fucking balls make any other progress during this health care fight. For god sakes, I'm talking about one non-binding speech. No, we're willing to tell some of Obama's strongest activists "Fuck off and wait your turn" because we're so fucking scared - of one speech. It makes me sick.

Fuck off and wait your turn. Your stupidity makes me sick.

Now you're saying that you actually want an empty platitude which will do no material good whatsoever and which might have negative repercussions on a more important issue, just because your delicate feelings might be hurt by the implication that you are a lesser cause. Well sorry, but you are a lesser cause.

My feelings of being hurt by the implication that I am a lesser cause? What the fuck are you talking about? I haven't made a god damn argument about which issue is more important. Actually, I've even said earlier this thread that UHC takes total precedence! Have you even read a single thing I've said?

How do you think the American political dynamic works? Do you think that all we liberals just sit around and hope that the politicians we elected win over the mindless middle for our cause? No, we rally our activist base to go out and help move our side and the mindless middle. Most of these people took the time and money to fly out to Washington DC for a one-day march. You don't think these people have the potential to make a difference in the UHC debate? These are hundreds of thousands of activists who could be phone banking, canvassing, setting up counter-protests, or organizing mass mails/phone-calls/rallies to congress representatives. The conservatives have a far easier time organizing their activists since our activists by large aren't dumbshit drones that follow what the Republican mouth piece says. And you still want to risk alienating tens or even hundreds of thousands of them?? "No material good whatsoever" my ass.

HIV/AIDS is a fucking health care reform issue. There are Americans that are at risk of not being able to afford their HIV medications because they've lost their jobs and are soon going to be unable to afford health coverage. This both a straight AND a gay issue. Do all activists see this? If the answer is no, then why the fuck did Obama not explicitly address this in his speech? Why didn't he say "I've got a plan to repeal DADT by X-Date but right now this is important to everyone so help me pass this needed reform so I can help you gain equality"? Right now, Obama is looking as if he's just using the LGBT base as freebie votes. And that's not how you build your base. If you want activists of any community to help, you have to throw them a bone. And all I'm talking about is giving better assurances in a god damn speech. But nooo! We're so fucking scared of what the right-wing propaganda can do to the American public that we're willing to throw thousands of our own activists under the bus and that we can't even possibly entertain the thought of rallying our own side to work on this issue. Nevermind the fact that so many of these activists worked for Obama during his campaign. No, they're expendable and would produce "no material good whatsoever".

[Darth Wong]

No, I have not been living in a cave for the past six months. In fact, I've been politically active for the past six months, thank you fucking very much. Most of my political activism has been primarily focused on LGBT issues but I also work with many activists from other organizations that work on many other progressive issues such as women's rights and health care. I'm not fucking oblivious to what's going on.

Judging by your incredulity at the idea that Obama could get in trouble for a single speech, yes you are.

Really! Well, I'm glad you told me! Because I wouldn't have guessed despite already mentioning that I'm well aware of how effective the right-wing propaganda machine is.

Then why are you so shocked at the idea that Obama should lay low on the issue until he gets some kind of UHC package passed? Do you have any goddamned experience doing any kind of real job? There's a reason why old hands always tell you to keep your head down in a crisis, lest it get shot off. When emotions are running high, you do NOT stir the pot any more than is absolutely necessary.

My feelings of being hurt by the implication that I am a lesser cause? What the fuck are you talking about?

I'm talking about your idiotic argument that Obama needs to give the gays some empty platitudes that are "non-binding" and therefore mean absolutely nothing, just to make sure that they know how important they are to him. If they're empty platitudes, then they won't do any good, and they can do harm.

I haven't made a god damn argument about which issue is more important. Actually, I've even said earlier this thread that UHC takes total precedence! Have you even read a single thing I've said?

Yes I have, you goddamned idiot. I didn't say that you fail to understand which issue is more important. I said that you don't like Obama openly acting like the gay issue is less important, and that is very obviously true.

How do you think the American political dynamic works? Do you think that all we liberals just sit around and hope that the politicians we elected win over the mindless middle for our cause? No, we rally our activist base to go out and help move our side and the mindless middle. Most of these people took the time and money to fly out to Washington DC for a one-day march. You don't think these people have the potential to make a difference in the UHC debate? These are hundreds of thousands of activists who could be phone banking, canvassing, setting up counter-protests, or organizing mass mails/phone-calls/rallies to congress representatives. The conservatives have a far easier time organizing their activists since our activists by large aren't dumbshit drones that follow what the Republican mouth piece says. And you still want to risk alienating tens or even hundreds of thousands of them?? "No material good whatsoever" my ass.

You're a fucking illiterate shit-for-brains. I did not say that those people do no material good. I said that empty platitudes would do no material good. And if they would be "alienated" by their special interest being put behind UHC on the priority list, then they are a bunch of selfish assholes.

HIV/AIDS is a fucking health care reform issue. There are Americans that are at risk of not being able to afford their HIV medications because they've lost their jobs and are soon going to be unable to afford health coverage. This both a straight AND a gay issue. Do all activists see this? If the answer is no, then why the fuck did Obama not explicitly address this in his speech? Why didn't he say "I've got a plan to repeal DADT by X-Date but right now this is important to everyone so help me pass this needed reform so I can help you gain equality"? Right now, Obama is looking as if he's just using the LGBT base as freebie votes. And that's not how you build your base. If you want activists of any community to help, you have to throw them a bone. And all I'm talking about is giving better assurances in a god damn speech. But nooo! We're so fucking scared of what the right-wing propaganda can do to the American public that we're willing to throw thousands of our own activists under the bus and that we can't even possibly entertain the thought of rallying our own side to work on this issue. Nevermind the fact that so many of these activists worked for Obama during his campaign. No, they're expendable and would produce "no material good whatsoever".

Oh right, so treading cautiously is "throwing our activists under the bus", right? You are just demonstrating a mastery of whining.

[Pint0 Xtreme]

Judging by your incredulity at the idea that Obama could get in trouble for a single speech, yes you are.

What kind of trouble are we talking about here? I already know Obama gets flak for anything he does so that goes without saying. No, you guys are saying that he'd be totally fucked. That's absolutely ridiculous and is not based on anything other than your own paranoia of American conservatives.

Then why are you so shocked at the idea that Obama should lay low on the issue until he gets some kind of UHC package passed? Do you have any goddamned experience doing any kind of real job? There's a reason why old hands always tell you to keep your head down in a crisis, lest it get shot off. When emotions are running high, you do NOT stir the pot any more than is absolutely necessary.

If emotions are running high, you keep your head down in a crisis AND you also manage damage control. Pissing off a very vocal base of yours IS letting the pot stir on its own.

I'm talking about your idiotic argument that Obama needs to give the gays some empty platitudes that are "non-binding" and therefore mean absolutely nothing, just to make sure that they know how important they are to him. If they're empty platitudes, then they won't do any good, and they can do harm.

Uh, something that is legally non-binding does not mean that does no good. Speeches by definition are obviously legally non-binding since it doesn't pass laws or enact legislation. But it moves people and it would move our activist base. But the fact that it's legally non-binding means that conservatives aren't as likely to do anything about it compared to when Obama and the Congress working to pass UHC. Gee, amazing how when Obama was talking about health care months before, conservatives weren't doing anything UNTIL laws were being written!

Yes I have, you goddamned idiot. I didn't say that you fail to understand which issue is more important. I said that you don't like Obama openly acting like the gay issue is less important, and that is very obviously true.

Keep your own god damn distortions of my own sentiments to yourself because you're certainly way off the mark here. I have no qualms about Obama openly acting like the gay issue is less important. In fact, considering that I wanted Obama to rally our LGBT activist base to WORK on health care, I think it's fucking bloody obvious that I'm rather pissed off that he's misused us as a group of people whom he could have rallied to help pass UHC.

You're a fucking illiterate shit-for-brains. I did not say that those people do no material good. I said that empty platitudes would do no material good. And if they would be "alienated" by their special interest being put behind UHC on the priority list, then they are a bunch of selfish assholes.

Uh... News Flash? People ARE selfish? Do you think people think like you do? After eight years of blatant government and populous sponsored homophobia, why do you expect these people to be any more patient and rational than you are? Shit. Many of these people recognize the need to keep UHC on the priority list. But that doesn't mean you can make them feel like they're just freebie votes.

Oh right, so treading cautiously is "throwing our activists under the bus", right? You are just demonstrating a mastery of whining.

What does it matter whether we're actually treading cautiously or really throwing our activists under the bus? If activists perceive that we're throwing them under the bus, then that's all that matters for the damage to our base to be done. Certainly, the administration doesn't need to bend all the way back to court them, which is why I'm not advocating tackling DADT right now. But over a single speech? Give me a fucking break!