The Salvation War: Pantheocide. Part Forty One Up

[Ted C]

I'm wondering how they'd *fit* in there, myself, given the sizes we've been talking about.

Don't they already select for shorter crew members?

The lowest ranked angels are the size of humans, presumably with some variation. You could probably find a few that could serve as officers of a sub, using their mind-control powers to command a human (first or second life) crew.

[Teebs]

why would the angel's hijack a nuclear sub?

Because that way you can get access to fully operation nuclear bombs. You could steal them from Soviet silos, but without maintainance and with time they would be useless. This way most of the warheads are live.

How the hell would they find the thing? Considering metal containers appear to block their finding abilities they've got fuck all chance of getting inside one big metal tube that's deep underwater when it's on deployment. Good luck successfully hijacking one while its in harbour.

Anyway mind control only works when people don't have their tinfoil hats I thought.

[Gogyra]

I'm wondering how they'd *fit* in there, myself, given the sizes we've been talking about.

Don't they already select for shorter crew members?

The lowest ranked angels are the size of humans, presumably with some variation. You could probably find a few that could serve as officers of a sub, using their mind-control powers to command a human (first or second life) crew.

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that mind control/possession only works on nephilem?

2. Wouldn't the tin-foil hats prevent the crew from being controlled?

[Pelranius]

I'm wondering how they'd *fit* in there, myself, given the sizes we've been talking about.

Don't they already select for shorter crew members?

The lowest ranked angels are the size of humans, presumably with some variation. You could probably find a few that could serve as officers of a sub, using their mind-control powers to command a human (first or second life) crew.

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that mind control/possession only works on nephilem?

2. Wouldn't the tin-foil hats prevent the crew from being controlled?

They (angles and demons) can 'boardcast' thoughts into the minds of human beings, though nephilim seem to be more suspectible (I think they're more noticeable and all).

[tortieconspiracy]

1. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that mind control/possession only works on nephilem?

Long range, yes. Close range? If nothing else, anyone is vulnerable to illusion casting.

2. Wouldn't the tin-foil hats prevent the crew from being controlled?

To quantum entanglement, sure. But what if they have other methods like the succubus miasma? Given that these are angels we're talking about, I'd bet on something sonic. Also, if they can capture a sub and get inside, they can get the hats off. Of course, getting inside without get shot is the tricky part, but Michael may already have gotten his paws some wonderful tools like tear gas.

[Hawkwings]

Even if they got nukes, would they be able to use them? My guess is firmly in "No" territory. Forgive me if this is a misconception from popular culture, but aren't one set of launch codes not even available to the crew until they get the order to launch?

On an unrelated subject, Stuart: What time of day do you typically write?

[Pelranius]

Even if they got nukes, would they be able to use them? My guess is firmly in "No" territory. Forgive me if this is a misconception from popular culture, but aren't one set of launch codes not even available to the crew until they get the order to launch?

On an unrelated subject, Stuart: What time of day do you typically write?

I was wondering about that too. Unless Michael managed to scam some people in the Israeli high command into giving him those codes.

[Darth Wong]

I updated the C&C version.

[Darth Wong]

I think this is a lot of the problem. People generally have been schooled to believe that having a superpower is automatically a devastating advantage. Rather like a lot of people actually believe the "German uberweapons win WW2" nonsense. Running into a situation where having superpowers simply doesn't do enough good to matter is a heck of a wrench. People wait for the superpower that will win the war and there isn't one. Also, I was tending to try and avoid a "superpower of the Chapter" approach where the daemons kept revealing new "powers" and humans had to keep scrambling to find "solutions".

I'm reminded of the plot of Mortal Kombat. We are told that if humanity's greatest warriors cannot win the tournament of mortal kombat, then Shang Tsung's legions of warriors will flood onto Earth. At no point did anyone ever manage to explain how a bunch of kung-fu morons with funky superpowers and melee weapons would get past a single Chinese army brigade, never mind conquering the world. It was simply assumed that these creatures, having superior strength, kung-fu skills, and strange abilities, would just walk all over humanity.

The Wolverine movie was like this too. That scene with Wade and his Mighty Twin Katanas of Doom was just nauseating. Any kind of superpowers = invincibility!!!!

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

I was thinking more along the lines of the sub was detroyed by an as yet revealed angel ability, but even the worst case will not give the angels enough firepower or range to do anything more than assure complete genocide of the Yaweh's ilk. There is a docrine about nuclear retaliation.....

[EmperorChrostas the Cruel]

Wow, two spelling errors in such a short reply. That will teach me to type without my glasses on.

[Eulogy]

I think this is a lot of the problem. People generally have been schooled to believe that having a superpower is automatically a devastating advantage. Rather like a lot of people actually believe the "German uberweapons win WW2" nonsense. Running into a situation where having superpowers simply doesn't do enough good to matter is a heck of a wrench. People wait for the superpower that will win the war and there isn't one. Also, I was tending to try and avoid a "superpower of the Chapter" approach where the daemons kept revealing new "powers" and humans had to keep scrambling to find "solutions".

I'm reminded of the plot of Mortal Kombat. We are told that if humanity's greatest warriors cannot win the tournament of mortal kombat, then Shang Tsung's legions of warriors will flood onto Earth. At no point did anyone ever manage to explain how a bunch of kung-fu morons with funky superpowers and melee weapons would get past a single Chinese army brigade, never mind conquering the world. It was simply assumed that these creatures, having superior strength, kung-fu skills, and strange abilities, would just walk all over humanity.

The Wolverine movie was like this too. That scene with Wade and his Mighty Twin Katanas of Doom was just nauseating. Any kind of superpowers = invincibility!!!!

Superpowers are an advantage. It's just that they are not necessarily devastating ones.

Said kung-fu morons would be chewed up by standard anti-infantry tactics; and katana-wielders would be fucked over by explosions, fire, or shotguns. Thin sheets of metal can only block so much, after all.

It depends on the situation.

[Gil Hamilton]

I'm reminded of the plot of Mortal Kombat. We are told that if humanity's greatest warriors cannot win the tournament of mortal kombat, then Shang Tsung's legions of warriors will flood onto Earth. At no point did anyone ever manage to explain how a bunch of kung-fu morons with funky superpowers and melee weapons would get past a single Chinese army brigade, never mind conquering the world. It was simply assumed that these creatures, having superior strength, kung-fu skills, and strange abilities, would just walk all over humanity.

The Wolverine movie was like this too. That scene with Wade and his Mighty Twin Katanas of Doom was just nauseating. Any kind of superpowers = invincibility!!!!

What's worse about the plot of Mortal Kombat is that if you follow the video games Shao Kahn's warriors succeed in attacking Earth, killing most of the population of the planet with magic, and launching extermination squads of feudally armed kung fu warriors and monsters into modern Earth to mop up the rest. They are only defeated by, you guessed it, a bunch of individual fighters kung-fuing individual dudes on Shao Kahn's side. Fortunately, kung-fuing Shao Kahn sufficiently acts as a reset button and returns the status quo.

Later, Shang Tsung gets together with a buddy and succeed in killing most of Earth's warriors with magic and kung fu, nearly conquering the Earth, except that Raiden

[Eulogy]

What's worse about the plot of Mortal Kombat is that if you follow the video games Shao Kahn's warriors succeed in attacking Earth, killing most of the population of the planet with magic, and launching extermination squads of feudally armed kung fu warriors and monsters into modern Earth to mop up the rest. They are only defeated by, you guessed it, a bunch of individual fighters kung-fuing individual dudes on Shao Kahn's side. Fortunately, kung-fuing Shao Kahn sufficiently acts as a reset button and returns the status quo.

Later, Shang Tsung gets together with a buddy and succeed in killing most of Earth's warriors with magic and kung fu, nearly conquering the Earth, except that Raiden

Did they blast the Earth from orbit or something? Did they cook up some wanked-out superdisase or steal all of the oil? Or are they just Immune To Bullets?

I don't see why bullets would fail to kill guys armed only with kung fooey and hocus pocus.

[Darth Wong]

It would take some pretty absurd writing to explain how a punch to the face can hurt an otherworldly warrior but a bullet to the face won't.

[Ryan Thunder]

It would take some pretty absurd writing to explain how a punch to the face can hurt an otherworldly warrior but a bullet to the face won't.

I'm going to hazard a guess that due to magic, the punch was moving at the speed of a bullet.

How bad would that be?

[Eulogy]

It would take some pretty absurd writing to explain how a punch to the face can hurt an otherworldly warrior but a bullet to the face won't.

I'm going to hazard a guess that due to magic, the punch was moving at the speed of a bullet.

How bad would that be?

If the punch was at bullet speed, then the hand would be shattered and the guy that threw the punch would be howling in pain. Apparently, either it is the mass of the object that determines the damage done and not the force it exerts (thus showing that the writers Fail Physics Forever) or that fists have some mystical quality that allows it to break past Borg shielding the force that stops mundane metal from harming the alien warrior (thus showing that the writers fail at properly using Rule Of Cool. Alternatively, they are Luddites).

It's the same reason why Dragon Ball Z villains laugh at firearms but a guy throwing a punch whose "power level" is rated at some absurdly high number hurts them, even though the punches themselves move slower than bullets.

[Junghalli]

You'd have to make it so that the physical punch is purely symbolic and it's really all in the magic. Like saying I have a sword made out of gelatin but I reinforce it WITH MY MIND so that it's harder than steel. Which makes little sense (why not cut out the middle-man and directly use the magic as a weapon without bothering with the punching?) but it's the best I can do.

[Darth Wong]

On a slightly related note, TVTropes has been brought up several times in this thread. Checking their website, I don't really see that anyone has identified the trope that magic and superpowers automatically make a person virtually invincible against mere mortals armed with conventional weapons, even if those particular superpowers should not logically grant such invincibility.

Mind you, TVTropes does include a lot of stupid shit, like this. The idea that it's some sort of "trope" for a soldier to be more dangerous when he has a technological weapon seems to belie some sort of ignorance of the entire recorded history of armed human combat, starting from the point where we asserted superiority over other animals by inventing the spear. I particularly like the part about how it's a trope that the person becomes much weaker without his technological weapon, as if it's a mere dramatic convention that a rifleman would be less dangerous without his rifle. If this is a "trope", we might as well call gravity a "trope" too.

[Darmalus]

In TV land, a sword fighter and a gun fighter are equally effective, because everyone fights at arms length no matter what weapon they use. So anyone who can't drop their gun and kung fu fight at equal effectiveness is a Tech Fu.

It even says near the bottom:

Truth In Television example: a 19th century Ottoman report on the military capabilities of other nations reports that American soldiers are skilled with guns, but pathetic in sword fighting.

Such is the logic of TV land.

[Darth Wong]

Did you also notice how many of their references are bizarre, including old videogames that nobody plays, or obscure anime bullshit?

If something is a cultural trope, it should have high-profile examples. Give me something from Indiana Jones, not Wizardry VIII.

[Peptuck]

Mind you, TVTropes does include a lot of stupid shit, like this. The idea that it's some sort of "trope" for a soldier to be more dangerous when he has a technological weapon seems to belie some sort of ignorance of the entire recorded history of armed human combat, starting from the point where we asserted superiority over other animals by inventing the spear. I particularly like the part about how it's a trope that the person becomes much weaker without his technological weapon, as if it's a mere dramatic convention that a rifleman would be less dangerous without his rifle. If this is a "trope", we might as well call gravity a "trope" too.

That's the double-edged sword of any wiki as it grows bigger.

TVTropes is trying to "not be Wikipedia" by constantly yelling about their being informal and "there's no such thing as notability!" And all the crap that filters in is a direct result. Wikipedia may have a ridiculous amount of rules and organizational structure, but it's there for a reason.

It doesn't help that there's an undercurrent and subtext that pretty much says "put as much shit down in the examples as you can, even if it's only marginally relevant."

[Gil Hamilton]

Did they blast the Earth from orbit or something? Did they cook up some wanked-out superdisase or steal all of the oil? Or are they just Immune To Bullets?

I don't see why bullets would fail to kill guys armed only with kung fooey and hocus pocus.

I believe Shao Kahn rips out everyone's souls on a when he forces Earth to merge with Outworld due to a magical loophole in the rules governing the Mortal Kombat multiverse. You see, his bride is the Queen of one of the realms, but dies before she can marry him in a political alliance. So Shao Kahn arranges for her to be resurrected on Earth, which allows him to enter Earth on a technicality so he can claim his Queen. He crosses the portal, goes "Bwahahaha!", and magicks out everyones souls with his powers, depopulating most of the planet except where Raiden intervenes. He then sends out his dudes to kung fu the survivors. He is eventually beaten by having all his dudes kung-fued by Raiden's dudes and he himself gets kung-fued such that he returns all the souls he stole and goes off in a sulk.

[usagihunter101]

Well, as someone who came here from TVTropes, I rather like the place. It's nice mainly because of the lack of notability rules. It's more useful for entertainment and finding obscure crap that you've not heard about in years than actual information. If I just wanted facts I'd use That Other Wiki.

Besides that, I would've never known about this story if it hadn't been for the hours I spent reading TVTropes, so let's cut it some slack and see it for what it is, a mindless little website designed to entertain people. Hell, at least it's not another *chan!

[Ryan Thunder]

It would take some pretty absurd writing to explain how a punch to the face can hurt an otherworldly warrior but a bullet to the face won't.

I'm going to hazard a guess that due to magic, the punch was moving at the speed of a bullet.

How bad would that be?

If the punch was at bullet speed, then the hand would be shattered and the guy that threw the punch would be howling in pain. [...]

Oh, for fuck's sakes. Yeah, it would. Obviously, it doesn't shatter every bone in his arm, so as a corollary, whatever's making him able to punch that hard is also allowing him to survive the stresses of doing so. I figured that would be painfully obvious enough that I wouldn't have to actually specify it.