Things You Wish Weren't In The OT

[TC Pilot]

Thrawn posited that the Emperor was exerting a subtle influence which I think has been attributed to battle meditation. When he died, this influence would have also vacated.

Indeed, though subsequent canon has established (or suggested, I'm certain which) that it was one of his Grand Admirals conducting the battle meditation.

Source? I thought that the Truce of Bakura put the figure at a 1/3 being out of commission, but if I'm wrong I could stand to be enlightened.

Truce of Bakura sourcebook. Sadly, I don't have the quote, just a page number. If someone has it, it's on pg. 9. It's actually 3/4, not 2/3.

Regardless of exact numbers, I do have these quotes:

"Mere hours after the Battle of Endor, Ackbar's valiant fleet lies all but shattered." Opening crawl

"Ackbar's armada was little more than a slow moving target..." pg. 10

"Even a token Imperial fleet--two or three Star Destroyers from the Endor fleet--could cause incredible damage to the vulnerable Alliance armada. Hopefully the Alliance would be ready for another battle, or at least be prepared for a full retreat." pg. 10

"even a small Imperial battlegroup could wipe out the entire Alliance fleet." pg. 12

[Stofsk]

Ah thanks, that's very interesting (never read the book, only picked it up and read a page or so when in a bookstore). Really, that's the result you'd expect the Rebellion to have suffered, although I take Mike's point to heart that the battle as depicted onscreen, did not show us enough desperate fighting.

Though this is the first I've ever heard of a force sensitive Grand Admiral. Being something of a Zahn fan, I'm inclined to accept his version of Palpatine's mojo being silenced instead.

[Bilbo]

I agree that that scene could have done that, but from that point on, Vader gets weaker and more pathetic. I guess that is how I wanted Vader to be after that scene.

Honestly, that is the way I could have felt when I first saw it, but the memory of that event is lost to me.

Maybe your memory is playing tricks on you. Everyone I knew felt that Vader was at least as menacing after TESB as he was after ANH, if not more so.

Anyway, things I would leave out of the OT:

1) Jarring and inappropriate injection of slapstick comedy into serious battle scenes. Contrary to popular belief, this problem did not start with TPM. There were touches of it during Solo's escape from Hoth in TESB, and of course, there was the Battle of Endor.

2) Some of the "Special Edition" changes, such as Greedo shooting first and the extended Jabba's Palace musical numbers.

Does your removing the slapstick include the scene with the chickenshit Stormtroopers running from a single yelling Solo and then turning around when they (SE edition) his the large room full of troopers?

Its a funny scene but rather silly when you think about it and a far cry from the Stormtroopers in the beginning of the movie who boarded the Tantive IV fully expecting to take heavy casualties from the defenders.

[TC Pilot]

Though this is the first I've ever heard of a force sensitive Grand Admiral. Being something of a Zahn fan, I'm inclined to accept his version of Palpatine's mojo being silenced instead.

Whichever version you prefer, it relies on Palpatine's death. Here's the Wookieepedia article on him, if you're interested: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nial_Declann

[Batman]

Does your removing the slapstick include the scene with the chickenshit Stormtroopers running from a single yelling Solo and then turning around when they (SE edition) his the large room full of troopers?

Great Valen no! That scene absolutely HAS to stay. Yes, it was stupid, but it's wasn't anywhere as stupid as it was FUNNY. While it was definitely comedy and likely slapstick it was NOT jarring or inappropriate (at least not to me). Mind you, I don't recall any inappropriate comedy in Han & Co's escape from Hoth or the battle of Endor so either my sense of humour or my memory are likely defective
As for the stormtroopers in the boarding of Tantive IV being far more professional so what? It's a bleeping UNIFORM. Despite what the EU says NOT everybody in the black-and-white is an incredibly highly trained supersoldier (heck even the EU routinely has them being incompetent as hell). ALL that armour makes them is grunts. They can still be young and insecure and inexperienced.
If memory serves the Clone Wars cartoons had BRIDGE PERSONELL wearing Clonetrooper armour so we can't even assume the guys running from Han were regular infantry.

[Captain Seafort]

Though this is the first I've ever heard of a force sensitive Grand Admiral. Being something of a Zahn fan, I'm inclined to accept his version of Palpatine's mojo being silenced instead.

Whichever version you prefer, it relies on Palpatine's death. Here's the Wookieepedia article on him, if you're interested: http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Nial_Declann

Regardless of who was doing the battle mediation, the RotJ novel specifically attributes the loss of Imperial efficiency to the Emperor's death:

For the Emperor was dead. The central, powerful evil that had been the cohesive force to the Empire was gone; and when the dark side was this diffused, this non-directed - this was simply where it led.
Confusion.
Desperation.
Damp fear.

[FSTargetDrone]

* The destruction of Executor in RotJ. It was cheap. A better solution would be to have her blown up in the explosion of the DS2, perhaps.

Not sure I agree. Remember, without the destruction of the Executor you basically have the whole Rebel fleet doing nothing but sitting around and getting shot to pieces until Our Heroes save the day. It would make them seem incompetent and useless*.

The problem for me, at least, is the way the Executor was destroyed. Sure, a great dagger stabbing into the heart of the Empire's most fearsome weapon looks cool and all, but I agree with Vymple here. It would have been a lot more interesting to have the ship caught up in the destruction of the DSII. We can still have the A-Wing hitting and ravaging the bridge as filmed, but the way the ship suddenly takes a dive just looks silly, no matter how we try to rationalize it from a technical side. Surely there are other command positions on the ship and any surviving command crews in those areas on the Executor don't know that the Death Star is about to pop off. Or even if they do, we can just show the ship as not having enough time to escape and instead have the crew running for the escape pods. Or have a few other Star Destroyers collide with the Executor as the smaller ships' crews panic or some such in an attempt to flee. Then again, the DSII is destroyed in moments, so there really is no need for anyone on the Imperial side to be able to notice the danger of that and react before it's too late.

It may be nuts, but the way the Executor is lost bothers me more than even the Ewoks' very existence in the film.

I'd lose the shots of the various and generic Alliance pilots in their ships before they are destroyed. Who cares about these people? We didn't see them doing anything interesting before (other than Wedge and Crynyd) and I don't care to see them now. I'd rather just see a few more seconds of space combat instead of a few guys yelling, "She's gonna blow!"

[Stark]

I'd have preferred if Executor moved over the giant hole the rebels used, to try to screen the DS2's vulnerability (and showing the Imperials had learned something) and was thus destroyed by DS2 damage/overwhelmed by fleet/poor tactical positioning etc. But it doesn't bother me as much as it does others; dumb shit happens in combat sometimes.

[FSTargetDrone]

I'd have preferred if Executor moved over the giant hole the rebels used, to try to screen the DS2's vulnerability (and showing the Imperials had learned something) and was thus destroyed by DS2 damage/overwhelmed by fleet/poor tactical positioning etc.

That's a fine idea and makes good sense.

[Batman]

I don't mind Executor dieing in the crash. I WOULD have preferred if it had looked less deliberate. Not only is she crashing into the DSII when there's plenty of other directions an uncontrolled and for the time being malfunctioning ship could have gone but she hits the DSII nose first.

[The_Saint]

In relation to the stepping-on-tail bit, IIRC they actually had to do this to make the scene work at all. Otherwise it couldn't be done without some sort of weird clipping issues. It's in the making of feature on the VHS tapes, I believe.
...

Just cut those few frames, replace with a shot of the minions or cgi the tail elsewhere... Like the Imperial Fleet incompetence at Endor and Han shooting first/last it changes a the feel of a scene.
We could have Jabba demanding money/death etc and Han fast talking his way out of it and only jsut managing to keep his life and the falcon but we get a criminal kingpin who pleads with a "minion" and literally and figuratively gets walked over...
We could have a space battle similar to the opening of ROTS with the Imperial Navy holding back and when the Rebels close with them they start methodically destroying Mon Cal ships with the Rebels "taking as many of them as we can with us", maybe one Star Destroyer for every two Rebel capital ships and still have many more Star Destroyer's coming to fill the ranks instead we get.......... ... ... blind incompetence "the Emperor said don't shoot la-la-la-la-la"

How many gun fighters in all of history have/will/would willingly let someone point a gun in their face and happily let them pull the trigger hoping that it'll miss from point blank range, it's either suicide or stupidity.
Han looked cool and calm when Greedo pulled a gun, carefully drawing his and then when the conversation went downhill he dealt with it quickly and simply, Han shooting second he's either relying on a lot of luck, Jedi precog/telekinesis, a character shield, all three or is just plain suicidal...

[Darth Fanboy]

In relation to the stepping-on-tail bit, IIRC they actually had to do this to make the scene work at all. Otherwise it couldn't be done without some sort of weird clipping issues. It's in the making of feature on the VHS tapes, I believe.

You remember correctly. When they originally filmed the scene Jabba was just a fat human being, still nowhere near as big as what the character would eventually become in RoTJ. Solo's movements made the tail stepping necessary otherwise he would have had to physically pass through Jabba to make the scene work.

[Oni Koneko Damien]

Does your removing the slapstick include the scene with the chickenshit Stormtroopers running from a single yelling Solo and then turning around when they (SE edition) his the large room full of troopers?

Great Valen no! That scene absolutely HAS to stay. Yes, it was stupid, but it's wasn't anywhere as stupid as it was FUNNY. While it was definitely comedy and likely slapstick it was NOT jarring or inappropriate (at least not to me).

Never mind the fact that the troopers could likely have been deliberately leading Han into an ambush with a room full of reinforcements. At least that was the impression I always got from that scene. The trooper boarding-party from the beginning were walking into the jaws of death because they had to overcome an entrenched force, which is a hellacious sort of fight in practically any historical or fantastic setting. While fighting with Han? They had the home ground, Han wasn't entrenched, why not lure him into a more vulnerable position?

[Simon_Jester]

* The destruction of Executor in RotJ. It was cheap. A better solution would be to have her blown up in the explosion of the DS2, perhaps.

Not sure I agree. Remember, without the destruction of the Executor you basically have the whole Rebel fleet doing nothing but sitting around and getting shot to pieces until Our Heroes save the day. It would make them seem incompetent and useless*.

As opposed to making the enemy seem even more incompetent and useless?

The enemy has a Death Star; they don't need to look competent.

Seriously, I'm not saying the Battle of Endor was perfectly written, but I have this vision of a parallel universe close to this one where the scene was written without the destruction of the Executor... and where this forum is having an argument about why the Rebels even bothered to bring their useless capital ships to the battle in the first place.

I think that the Rebels need some noticeable victories in open naval combat in that movie for dramatic reasons.

No, I think that the Rebels need to be on the verge of being completely wiped out in open naval combat in that movie for dramatic reasons.

You know, those aren't mutually exclusive. The Rebels can still lose the naval battle and "take a few of them with us."

So how do you justify the Rebel fleet you know not being totally wiped out? Even after the DSII goes, if the Imperials having been winning all along, why don't they continue and wipe out the rebels in vengeance for the DSII going up?

We know why: Imperial morale was shot, and Pellaeon, being the coward he was, illegally ordered a retreat, causing the fleet to rout.

Thrawn posited that the Emperor was exerting a subtle influence which I think has been attributed to battle meditation. When he died, this influence would have also vacated.

Who would have guessed that from looking at the movie, though? This was before Thrawn was imagined, let alone written.

The problem for me, at least, is the way the Executor was destroyed. Sure, a great dagger stabbing into the heart of the Empire's most fearsome weapon looks cool and all, but I agree with Vymple here. It would have been a lot more interesting to have the ship caught up in the destruction of the DSII. We can still have the A-Wing hitting and ravaging the bridge as filmed, but the way the ship suddenly takes a dive just looks silly, no matter how we try to rationalize it from a technical side. Surely there are other command positions on the ship and any surviving command crews in those areas on the Executor don't know that the Death Star is about to pop off. Or even if they do, we can just show the ship as not having enough time to escape and instead have the crew running for the escape pods. Or have a few other Star Destroyers collide with the Executor as the smaller ships' crews panic or some such in an attempt to flee. Then again, the DSII is destroyed in moments, so there really is no need for anyone on the Imperial side to be able to notice the danger of that and react before it's too late.

It may be nuts, but the way the Executor is lost bothers me more than even the Ewoks' very existence in the film.

Hmm. OK, that makes sense. Come to think of it, it reminds me of the change I would really like to see: Ewoks replaced by Wookiees. I can believe Stone Age Wookiees mauling the crap out of stormtroopers. But teddy bears? Doesn't do it for me.

[Chris OFarrell]

I think its rather pathetic if someone wants to change things just because it might make the Empire look 'cooler' or be of help from some 'SW vs ...' perspective, let alone change the movies so they aint the movies anymore. But there are a *few* things through the OT I'd like to change which always grated on me;

ANH:

Moss Eisley CGI; tone it back a bit. Some of the shots did work well, others just...meh. And get rid of Jabba, he has no place in this film. And suffice to say, Greedo shoots FIRST.

Dianoga. Remove. I just don't see the point of it, there is more then enough tension with the walls closing in and the masher doing its stuff, how in the hell this thing got onto the Space Station always annoyed me, and frankly I think its too much of a break in the pacing.

Change the graphics of the damn quad gun targeting things on the Falcon, sorry, they just DO suck that badly. Even with 1980's SFX, you could do a lot better and more logical in terms of design then that!

Try and find some reason as to why Leia leads the Death Star right to the Alliance Headquaters when she knows they are being tracked. Perhaps even have her only realize or find the homing device after they emerge at Yavin, at which point the die is cast or something...

ESB:

"Bring my Shuttle" > the other crap. Seriously. That was a pissed off Vader stalking through Cloud City, with a whole bunch of people trying to stay out of his way. And it worked great. Though I did like the sequence of the Lambda approaching Executor, though not the landing on the hanger, which was not necessary.

Cut back on a couple of the new sequences at Cloud City which were just flying around the city in 'chase cam' mode for no real reason. The new interior/exterior shots were good with the windows and so on though.

Make it explicit that they FINALLY manage to fix the Hyperdrive after they get on the back of the ISD and well hidden, but they only have a range of a few dozen or hundred light years before it'll explode, and Lando is one of the only systems in range, so they jump there with Fett following.

Fix the stupid Boba voice = all clones voice, as well as Lukes Scream.

ROTJ:

Tone back the whole Jabba arc at the start, get rid of the extended dance number, show Leia blast her way out of the lower deck as well, gunning down a half dozen guards in a PMS pissed off mood after choking Jabba.

Rethink the Ewok battle. Have them in fact be animals that burrow as much as they live in trees, so at the Bunker they all pop out of tunnels and dugouts in the middle of the Imperials and cause Chaos, and lure them away by vanishing in and out of these things all the time, making life horribly difficult for Imperial Troops, who still manage to gun them down quite brutally though. At the same time, show those Rebel Commandos performing all manner of hell, weaving in and out of the Jungle and killing their way along -and being in place down around the AT-ST at the end where they grab all those Imperials -what DID they DO with them, anyway?

Expand the Battle of Endor to show more then just the Falcon running around killing fighters. I'd love to see those B-Wings and Y-Wings make an attack run on that Imperial Communications ship like in the novels, activating those targeting computers and firing a volley of torpedoes into a weak spot. Then you could even que to the Executor and show Piet clearly out of his depth and holding religiously to the Emperors orders to not heavily engage the Rebels or something, if you really wanted to. I'd also love to see some Tie Fighter cockpit love like in ANH, showing fighters taking out the Rebel fighters one by one, like that Y-Wing who screams 'I'm hittttt!' ...

And I have no problem with Executor crashing into the Death Star, but make it far more spectacular without the horribly fake explosion, perhaps with the Rebel capital ships 'helping' it down. At which point we start to see the Imperial fleet scatter in a panic as command cohesion is lost, Ackbar's crew giving him the news or something...


Just some ideas...

[Vympel]

Fix the stupid Boba voice = all clones voice, as well as Lukes Scream.

You mean the laughably obvious Emperor's scream from RotJ? That was deleted as of the 2004 DVDs, thank fucking Jeebus.

As for RotJ, Boba Fett's death by physical comedy was out of place, IMO. Though I like it now just because it makes me laugh at Karen Traviss masturbatory fantasies about how badass he is.

[Raptor_Pilot]

ANH:
Mos Eisley, I wouldn't remove much, but I would like to have seen some of this "scum and villany" refered to by Obi-Wan. The way it's shown in the film, Mos Eisly just looks like a city. How about some occasional blasterfire, or swoop gangs?

Remove Greedo shooting at all. It just doesn't make sense. When I first saw that scene as a kid, with Han gunning Greedo down, I just thought to myself "badass". Why change Badass?

Remove the scene with Jabba. When Han walks all over him, it doesn't explain his later nervousness when he says "Now, we're in a bit of a rush, so if you'll just get on board, we'll get out of here." I always figure he said that, because he just gunned down one of Jabba's thugs, and didn't want to stick around to see more of them show up.

Remove the room full of stormtroopers on the death star. Why couldn't the troopers run away, then set a hasty ambush after the corridor turns a corner? The way the movie plays, I had figured that entire room full of stormtroopers would give chase, but later on, we only see a few of them chasing Han and Chewie.

ESB:

Remove the "harpoons and tow cables" from the battle of Hoth. The AT-AT's are supposed to be walking death incarnate, and they can get tripped up with a piece of string? One thing I always wondered, was when they wrapped up the legs of the AT-AT, why didn't it just stop moving? It wouldn't have fallen over then.

Remove Boba Fetts new voice. The way I heard it, his helmet had the same kind of voice box as the stormtroopers. He just programmed it to sound badass. You should never remove badass from a movie.

ROTJ:

Remove ewoks, add wookies.

The Imperial fleet retreated before the death star was destroyed. When you see the Falcon fly out from the death star, the death star explodes. Then the camera cuts to a view of the Rebel fleet over the planet, sitting there doing nothing.
I would like to see a bit more of the battle, where the Imperial fleet retreats, and those evil rebels shoot at them as they try to get away.

I wish that TIE Interceptor wasn't destroyed when they flew out of the Death Star. I always felt bad for that guy.

[FSTargetDrone]

OK, that makes sense. Come to think of it, it reminds me of the change I would really like to see: Ewoks replaced by Wookiees. I can believe Stone Age Wookiees mauling the crap out of stormtroopers. But teddy bears? Doesn't do it for me.

Yeah and it would have been a nice tie-in (now) with the Wookiees from ROTS who were fighting alongside the Clone Troopers only to have those apparent allies suddenly turn on them. All those years later in ROTJ, the Wookiees would finally have their day against the now-stormtroopers who slaughtered their fellows.

And add me to the list of those who want to restore "Bring my shuttle." It was fine as it was. Even if they want to keep the extra shots of the shuttle itself (it's not really objectionable, because it shows how Vader gets back aboard the Executor so damn fast), but the new dialogue just seems out of place.

Oh, and the restoration of Boba Fett's voice. He doesn't have to sound exactly like his father, clone or no. Whether it's rationalized as a voice-changing device or merely a loss of the accent over the years, I don't like the new Boba voice. Out! Get it OUT!

[Darksider]

No, I think that the Rebels need to be on the verge of being completely wiped out in open naval combat in that movie for dramatic reasons.

I agree that the battle should have been made to seem more desperate. The fact that the only on-screen rebel capship kills were from the DS2 superlaser is a shame. Honestly, I think the battle should have been made to seem more brutal all around, with more shots of capital ships hammering away at each other, perhaps blasting off chunks of each others' hull. However, while you're making the battle seem more desperate, don't make it seem too one sided IE: Only showing rebels getting killed. Put some effort into showing that, while the rebels are fighting for their lives, they are inflicting casualties on the imperial fleet. Maybe put in the scene from the novel about the B-wings taking down the imperial communications ship, or show a badly damaged rebel cruiser ramming an ISD and then self-destructing, taking them both out.

Hoth was a good example of how it should be done. The rebels were clearly loosing, but they got their shots in too. A textbook example of how not to do it would be this battle scene from stargate sg-1's Camelot, where the allied fleet is completely annihilated despite inflicting no damage whatsoever on the Ori vessels.

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

I think a lot of the earlier drafts for RoTJ had a lot going for them; setting it above Kashyyyyyyyyyk rather than Endor would not only be a bit cooler since Wookies > Ewoks as plausible combatants, but there could be some pathos gleaned it being Chewie's people being worked to death rather than random forest fuzzies. Further more, they could be a bit higher-tech (or at least pseudo-higher tech. Hey, if Chewie had a laser-crossbow and the Gungans had laser-catapults and shields...). I'm also not sure about the whole 'Leia is Luke's sister', and suddenly I feel like I've had this conversation before and my name is Galvatron...

[Simon_Jester]

ESB:

Remove the "harpoons and tow cables" from the battle of Hoth. The AT-AT's are supposed to be walking death incarnate, and they can get tripped up with a piece of string? One thing I always wondered, was when they wrapped up the legs of the AT-AT, why didn't it just stop moving? It wouldn't have fallen over then.

Should they not at least be able to slow down the AT-ATs, then? If so, how? More credible antitank weapons in the Rebel trenches?

I mean, having Luke grapnel up to one and blow it up is cool, but I'd like the entire rest of the Rebel force to be able to take one or two down on its own.

[Raptor_Pilot]

Should they not at least be able to slow down the AT-ATs, then? If so, how? More credible antitank weapons in the Rebel trenches?

I mean, having Luke grapnel up to one and blow it up is cool, but I'd like the entire rest of the Rebel force to be able to take one or two down on its own.

I'm not saying to make the tow cables useless, but rather than tripping an AT-AT like a guy with shoelaces tied together, it should immobilise. The legs get all tied up, the AT-AT stops moving, then the rebel equivalent of "Tank Hunter" or "Combat Engineer" teams move in with portable heavy weapons to attack the AT-AT from underneath, or behind. Maybe they get in a firefight with snowtroopers being deployed from the AT-AT. I put foward this suggestion as a way to make the battle more intense, and give it more of the WW1 feel that I think the film was going for. I think that imagery is what makes it my favorite battle in Star Wars.

Personally I just find the thought of the Empire's mightiest ground combat vehicle being tripped like it's no big deal a little absurd.

[Batman]

I found the tied-up AT-AT toppling over perfectly acceptable. That IS what happens to Walkers when their legs are tied up (which is why they tied-up shoelaces gag works to begin with).

[erik_t]

I agree. The cables wouldn't stay taut in any case; they're just looped a few times, not tied. A walker would not stay immobilized for long.

[Darth Wong]

That cable didn't look too thick. It seems as if it would just snap, unless it's ridiculously strong or it's thicker than I'm guessing. Does anyone know how thick it is?