SDN World 3 Country Claiming

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I'm working on my history myself. But at this point, I'm wondering at which point should I diverge from real life. The Fourth Crusade, or the 1453 Siege of Constantinople? This itself has implications on how we deal with the Mongolian invasions in the Middle East.

[Siege]

For the Sultanate, my preliminary points distribution:

Population: 3
The Sultan rules over 75 million people. Outside the thin strip of fertile soil along the Nile, the southern Levant and a few cities in Arabia, the Sultanate is not very densely populated.

Home Territory: 3
The Sultanate stretches from the harbors of Alexandria on the shore of the Mediterranean to the Nubian coasts of Port Sudan, and from the quays of Benghazi to the ancient fortress of Al-Ghazza. Those who would infringe upon these territories will face the inevitable wrath of the Sultan's armies.

Colonial Territory: 2
In the 18th century the Sultan of Egypt conquered the Hejaz and most of western Arabia, including the holy cities of Mecca and Medina. These continue to be administered from Cairo. The Sultanate perpetually struggles with the Byzantine Empire for control of the Levant and remote Mesopotamia, and is an ally of the Emir of Kuwait.

Industry: 3
Egypt does not have a great industrial tradition. However the current Sultan is fascinated by the miracles of modern engineering, and has imported many foreigners to help his nation become an industrial powerhouse. So far these efforts have met with limited success, as the conservative Egyptians frequently resist efforts to modernize their traditional ways of life.

Economy: 4
The Sultan of Egypt is one of the richest men alive today, owing mostly to the strategic position of his country at a crossroads of trade routes, as well as de-facto possession of one of the most important shipping routes in the world, the Suez Canal. Egyptian banks are world-famous and trusted partners of a myriad businesses -- and often are run by Jews or Christians, because Islamic law prohibits the payment or acceptance of interest fees for the lending and accepting of money respectively.

Infrastructure: 2
Despite recent efforts to modernize the infrastructure of the Sultanate the preferred method of getting about is still the horse, followed by the ship -- either across the Nile, the Red Sea or the Mediterranean. There are preciously few railways or modern roads in the Sultante, partly because no-one has cared to construct them, and partly because it is incredibly difficult and prohibitively costly to maintain roads and rails in the ever-shifting deserts. The major exception to the typically subpar infrastructure is, of course, the Suez Canal.

Standing Military Limit: 3
The Sultanate maintains a respectable, but not overly large, military force at all times. Although its position is far from perilous, there are many forces at work in Africa and Persia that could in time prove a threat to the reign of the Sultan, and to prevent these forces from getting any funny ideas a decent deterrent - in the form of a sizable military - is desirable. And then there is of course the matter of the Byzantines - curse their religion! - who refuse to give up their claim to the Levant and the holy city of Jerusalem, and continue to fight the Sultan's troops for control of that region. A shoe on the head of their heathen Emperor!

Naval Focus: 2
Egypt has no real naval tradition, and the navy is commonly seen as the least prestigious of the army branches. The navy cannot hope to match the naval forces of the Byzantine Empire ship for ship or gun for gun, and has no oceangoing experience. What few warships the Sultan does possess are mostly monitors, with a few dreadnoughts and predreadnoughts used mostly to defend the Suez Canal and the Sultanate's assets in the Red Sea. Occasionally the navy steams up and down the coast between Benghazi, Alexandria, Port Said and Al-Ghazza, but that is about the extent of its operations. The navy generally avoids direct confrontations with opposing fleets, knowing that they are most likely more experienced and better equipped, and instead prefers the hit-and-fade strategies common to Arabian warfare.

Army Focus: 4
The army is traditionally the mailed fist of the Sultan's wrath. It is composed of two sorts of units, best labelled 'trusted' and 'not trusted'. Trusted units are groups of soldiers whose loyalty to the Sultan has been proven. They are usually professional, well-equipped and exceedingly good at desert warfare. Units that haven't yet proven themselves are typically given second-rate equipment, less training, and a posting in regions where they cannot be a threat to the Sultan, like Libya or Nubia. This system is in place to prevent coups d'etat, something which the Sultanate was increasingly prone to in earlier days. The armies of the Sultanate consist to a very large degree of warriors on horseback, who can move swiftly even through the deserts where modern mechanical equipment tends to wear out and break down. A process of mechanization is ongoing however, especially of the forces in the Levant, who face similarly equipped Byzantine opponents.

Air Focus: 4
The Sultan and his European advisors are fascinated by the possibilities of air power, and invest heavily in it. On the open ranges of the Arabian deserts aerial reconnaissance is an invaluable asset, and the generals of the Flying Corps are eager to experiment with new types of air power such as bombardment zeppelins, seaplanes or airborne carriers. The pilots of the Sultan's Flying Corps have a reputation for being near-suicidal maniacs who traditionally paint their favorite quranic verses on the sides of their craft. Many compare themselves to the knights of the ancient Islamic conquests, or view themselves as mujahideen who rain Allah's fury down from heaven upon the hapless heathens below.

[Steve]

Siege, the Hedjaz would be Home Territory I think (Sudan would not). And would be covered by your 3 score.

Anyway, got a map up, still preliminary, with some disputed claims still not yet marked out. And I might've gotten a few things wrong. Feel free to post or PM me.

http://stgjr.com/sdnworld/mainmap.png

[K. A. Pital]

Bluewolf, so that's your territory in red? I want to make it clear what you're claiming.

Population: 5 (125-150 million depending on specifics of territorial aquisition and intensity of wars in the 1900-1925 period).

Home territory: 5 - "From Moscow to the very borders, from the southern mountains to the northern seas, a man walks as the master, of his immense motherland"

Colonial territory: between 0 and 2 depending on claims of people, and actually most likely 0 (I'm sure people claiming up Poland, Finland, etc. will arrive).

Industry: 2, 3 or 4 depending on the factors of history, level of militarization and the point wasting on colonies (presence/absence).

Economy: 3 - not much of a banking system, but our command economy can be mobilized for massive projects

Infrastructure: 2 - shitty infrastructure has always been the bane of Russia. Railway networks rule supreme, automotive transport die for the roads are bad as hell. Industrialization only begins, so the path to modern infrastructure is a long and painful way up.

Standing military limit: 5

Naval focus: 3 or 4 - "From here shall we threaten the Swedes..."

Army focus: 4 or 5 - "When the time comes, what shall we fight with, Marxism or the rifle?"

Air focus: 3 or 4 - "The Rodina hears, the Rodina knows, where her son is flying in the clouds..."

History: Spoiler

After miserably losing the Russo-Korean war in 1905, the Russian Empire stays at crossroads. In 1914, Tsar Nicholas the II starts the policy of runaway militarization just as a large European war looms over. There is considerable mobilization and it undercuts the civil consumption in the nation.
In 1915, just as the conflicts and various proxy armament shipments seem to escalate to fullscale war, Germany signs a pact with Russia. A large war is a averted, but the damage dealt to the Russian economy and political stability cannot be undone.
In February 1917, heavily impacted by the mass mobilization, hypermilitarization and runaway debt, the Tsar government relinquishes power. The Provisional Government does not last long - after the July coup attempt, runaway inflation and debt make the nation hinge on the verge of collapse. Nationalism raises it's head in the semi-colonial subjects of the Russian Empire.
In October 1917, the combined coalition of the Eser and the Bolshevik parties takes power through the Soviets, with the slogans "Land to the peasants" and "Factories to the workers". No peace or war issue makes it easy for the parties to find a compromise. The Soviet government is established, and the independence of small Russian Empire subjects, so easily trumped upon by the new government, is a small price for the victory of the Proletariat. The majority of European lands of the Russian Empire never gain independence.
In 1918, brewing pressures in those national regions lead to multiple, but disjoined insurrections. Central Asia is on fire with the basmachi raids, Europe is brewing with partisanship in Finland, Poland, Estonia, etc. Meanwhile the Japanese and Chinese try their own landgrabs against the weakened nation. Their effect is likewise a headache for the new government. Small wars and interventions become the most pressing issue with the new government of the R.S.F.S.R. Most of the uprisings are crushed without remorse. By 1922, a new political entity is born - the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics.
In 1924, the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics fully repays the external debt of Tsarist Russia accumulated by 1917, takes up on all the obligations of Tsarist Russia and without distinction lays claim on all territories of the former Russian Empire, claiming that the proletarians are awaiting liberation from the bourgeois elite. The Brest Litovsk treaty of 1915 defines the borders of the USSR, with minor changes. Most of Europe, Central Asia, Siberia and the Far East lay under Russia or is claimed by it's rule. The military and political elites of the USSR collude in what seems an unlikely collective junta after Lenin's death and the resignation of some of his compatriots.
The Union awaits a new leader to come after the great revolutionaries.

[Thanas]

Stas, you forgot points for economy and military support.

[K. A. Pital]

Got it. Now, I know some stuff will take more points than there is (more than 30), but I have to see who claims what and then twist the history of my nation, it's military power etc. accordingly.

Now that we've more or less figured out European history between Germany and Russia, I want to understand what to do about the small states in E.Europe, are there claimants to Central Asia and what is the history behind Beowulfs, Bluewolf's and Zor's claims to the Far East.

After I get all the claims and plot all the pre-game wars that have occured (I've already have a feeling that it's Russo-Korean war instead of Russo-Japanese war), I also want to understand (for myself) just how the revolutionary and intervention period in alt-Russia looked like, and that will also take some time.

[Bluewolf]

Bluewolf, so that's your territory in red

No, that is Beowulf's stake in Manchuria and the local area around it.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

At this point, I'm having the following point layout:

Infrastructure: 3
Economy: 4
Industry: 4
Population: 3
Home Territory: 3
Colonial Territory: 0
Standing Military limit: 3
Navy: 4
Air Force: 3
Army: 3

Working out a common history with Siege now, so stay tuned...

[Setzer]

Have you ever read the Alt-Hist the Philosopher Emperor, by Demetrios Rammos? It diverges before the Byzantines retake Constantinople. You might like it as a background history.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Have you ever read the Alt-Hist the Philosopher Emperor, by Demetrios Rammos? It diverges before the Byzantines retake Constantinople. You might like it as a background history.

Nope. But we are thinking of a divergence from Manizikert, where the Empire actually wins.

[K. A. Pital]

No, that is Beowulf's stake in Manchuria and the local area around it.

So where are your claims then? What did you "figure out" with Beowulf? And why with him, but not me who also has a claim on the lands?

[Ryan Thunder]

Well, when you act like a complete dick - aka "pay me tariffs, I want to inspect your ships and I am going to lock you out whenever I please" - on a completely ahistorical building you made just because you claimed it first then yeah, I am going to treat you as such. Especially because Germany at this point should have the second-largest or maybe even the largest merchant fleet afloat, which means that the Panama canal is very, very important to me.

Then help me build it and I'll make an exception for you.

I still don't see what's "draconian" about taking measures so that folks can't send stuff through that's liable to kill my people if there's an accident. Or just know what's going through in the first place, for that matter, for statistics' sake.

Or wanting folks to pay a little for maintenance of a facility that they're using...

[Bluewolf]

http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/2372313/mainmap-edited.png

My claims are all in green. Beowulf has what is in dark blue. I had no bearing on what he chose for territory besides Manchuria What I figured out with Beo was simply the amount of Manchuria he got to have given that it was pretty close to Beijing.

The reason I did not consult you first was A. He had chosen those countries by the time he was asking for Manchuria. B. I was uncertain on what angle you were going for, therefore it would throw in question what claims in China you actually had.

In fact iirc, the only area you probably may still have a claim on besides Manchuria is Xinjiang. I could be wrong though.

[Siege]

Nope. But we are thinking of a divergence from Manizikert, where the Empire actually wins.

Indeed. To give you an idea, here's the first bit:

---

I. The Massacre of Jerusalem and the First Crusade
In the early 11th century the Great Seljuk Empire, centered around Baghdad, was the penultimate force in the Middle East. From their homelands near the Aral sea, the Seljuks had advanced first into Khorasan and then into mainland Persia. They were defeated however by the forces of Emperor Romanos IV at the Battle of Manzikert in August of 1071, halting the Seljuk advance into Byzantine territory. In the subsequent numerous border skirmishes Byzantine forces under commanders Nikephoros Bryennios and Theodore Alyates manages to drive the Seljuks out of Anatolia, securing the survival of the Byzantine Empire.

Outraged by this setback and looking for a scapegoat to blame for the failure of the campaign against the Empire the Seljuk Sultan Malik Shah accuses the Fatimid Caliphate of conspiring with the heathen Byzantines. The Seljuks attack the Caliphate, capturing Jerusalem in 1073. As retaliation for the continued resistance offered to his forces by the Byzantines Malik Shah orders the Christian population of Jerusalem decimated. The Seljuks slaughter a large part of the Christian population.

When news of the massacre of Jerusalem reaches Europe it shocks many of the Christian rulers to the core. The image of innocent pilgrims being slaughtered within the walls of the holy city of Jerusalem causes an uproar, and as it becomes clear over the next years that the Byzantines will not mount a campaign to liberate the holy land, Pope Urban II in 1095 calls for a mighty Crusade to rid the Levant of the heathen Saracens.

The Byzantine Emperor Alexius I, suspicious of Urban II's motives after the Papacy failed to call for support of the orthodox Byzantines during the Seljuk invasions, was ill at ease with the idea that an immense army of knights and peasants from many nations in Western Europe would be passing through his lands. However it proved impossible to divert the Crusade and so the Emperor grudgingly allowed the Crusade to pass through Constantinople and into the Seljuk-occupied Levant, although the devastation caused by the Crusaders in Byzantine lands further deepened the divide between roman-catholic Western Europe and orthodox Byzantium.

Meanwhile the Great Seljuk Empire had dissolved into smaller, warring states after the death of Sultan Malik Shah. The fractured states of the Seljuks were on the whole more concerned with consolidating their own territories and gaining control of their neighbors than with cooperating against the crusaders during the First Crusade. The Seljuks easily defeated the untrained People's Crusade arriving in 1096, but could not stop the progress of the army of the subsequent Princes' Crusade, which took important cities such as Antioch, Aleppo and Latakia on its march to Jerusalem, and in 1099 finally successfully captured the Holy Land, setting up the first Crusader States: the Kingdom of Jerusalem, County of Tripoli, the Principality of Antioch, and the County of Edessa.

---

And now we're up to 1099. Only 826 more years to go!

[Thanas]

Here is what I'll offer:

- Germany will help built it with both engineers and monetary help
- Germany will also help sharing the maintenance costs
- Germany will also file affidavits stating the general cargo of ships.

In return, I expect the following:
- no lockout except if we are at war with you or of your allies
- no searching of our ships. I shall not allow your inspectors on any german ship where they can copy technology or have a look at our designs.
- a canal board to be convened which decides about who gets to cross the canal comprised of all states who contributed to the canal. One state, one vote.
- If a nation is at war with us, it may not cross the canal except if it is a member of the canal board. Vice versa, the same applies.

[Setzer]

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/ ... 1255873726

Alright, I've shown my desired holdings in Central Africa. Would a mod please take a look and tell me if it's OK?

[Ryan Thunder]

Here is what I'll offer:

- Germany will help built it with both engineers and monetary help
- Germany will also help sharing the maintenance costs
- Germany will also file affidavits stating the general cargo of ships.

In return, I expect the following:
- no lockout except if we are at war with you or of your allies
- no searching of our ships. I shall not allow your inspectors on any german ship where they can copy technology or have a look at our designs.
- a canal board to be convened which decides about who gets to cross the canal comprised of all states who contributed to the canal. One state, one vote.
- If a nation is at war with us, it may not cross the canal except if it is a member of the canal board. Vice versa, the same applies.

Sounds fair to me.

[Bluewolf]

I may be interested in doing a similer deal with you Ryan with the conditions Thanas laid out. Would that be accepetable in your eyes? Same goes to Thanas.

[Ryan Thunder]

I was just thinking that the whole thing is potentially complex enough that we might want to RP it in unreal time to start with...

Or we could hash it out over IM.

[Thanas]

I don't have IMs, but I respond pretty fast to PMs, so if you want to do this over PM, I'd be acceptable to it.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I'm not sure, but any southern European state would have no need of the Panama canal. We (Siege and I), don't plan to impose any contracts etc. on civilian traffic who use the Suez Canal, aside from the usual tariffs. Unless of course, it's a military expedition, which will have to be cleared with both Egyptian and Byzantine authorities.

Of course, anyone who tries to screw with both of us will see a Byzantine/Egyptian battlefleet bearing down on them.

BTW Stas, I'm willing to work out an arrangement on the use of the Bosphorus which include no tariffs etc. Just make sure you send a note if you send a battlefleet through.

[K. A. Pital]

Stas, I'm willing to work out an arrangement on the use of the Bosphorus which include no tariffs etc. Just make sure you send a note if you send a battlefleet through

You can tax me all you like. I think Byzantine monarchy wouldn't be too fond of the USSR in the 1920s. Just apply the common Bosph. tax rules.

[Karmic Knight]

Here is my proposed point set up for the Union of the Low Countries.

Population: 1 (Home) + 2 (Colonial), 3 - ~75 Million People, majority living in the colonies.
Home Territory: 1 - Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg are half the size of Britain.
Colonial Territory: 3 - Kenya, Somalia, Abyssinia, Tunisia and the Wester half of the Libyan coast. As the Subsidiary Union of the Horn of Africa and the Subsidiary Union of North Africa, respectively. Plus the small island of Curaçao in the Caribbean.
Industry: 4 - An Industrialized nation, never recovered to the full heights of the Low Countries industry following the revolution.
Economy: 3 - A stable, if not overly wealthy, banking system as the Union is after stability in the economy.
Infrastructure: 4 - A well developed rail system in the home country, a less well developed system of railways in the colonies, weakly connected local road networks, and a developed supply line to the colonies.
Standing Military Limit: 3 - The Union is moderately militarized.
Naval Focus: 4 - The branch that holds together the Unions, the Navy is the most important branch, and had the fear of a capitalist invasion not exist, this branch would hold the lion's share of the budget.
Army Focus: 4 - The Army
Air Focus: 1 - Very few aeroplanes and even fewer combat ones, no need for planes during the wars in the Horn of Africa has left this form of combat a major weak point.

My Idea for the Union's history so far. Spoiler

• Low Countries History as Similar as possible to regular timeline to 1875 (Possible Subtraction of the Dutch East Indian Company, pending some more discussion with Klavohunter)
• Belgian Congolese Colonial Actions 1876
• The Invasion of Tunisia (Dutch) 1875
• Dutch Invasion of Western Libya following a Bedouin Uprising against the Egyptian Sultanate (Siege) in the area. (1877)
• Congolese Trade Captains Revolt from the King of the Belgians 1879 (Setzer’s Nation)
• The Trade Union Revolt of 1880 (Belgian)
• Dissolution of Dutch Trade Unions (Late 1880)
• 1st Trade Union War, 1880-1885 (Belgian Revolutionary Republic (Belgian Trade Unions) and Dutch Trade Unionists versus the Kingdom of the Netherlands and Belgian Royalists)
  1. The Dutch in North Africa declare the creation of “Free Dutch Africa”
  2. Establishment of the Union of the Low Countries in Brussels
• 2nd Trade Union War 1885 – 1900 (The Union of The Low Countries versus Dutch Royalists, and “Free Dutch Africa”)
  1. Conquest of the “Free Dutch Africa”
  2. Decision to write off as a loss the Congolese.
  3. The Invasion of Curaçao.
  4. Congress of Trade Unions Expanded to involve the Dutch Unions.
• Establishment of the North African Congress of Trade Unions, the Subsidiary Union of North Africa (Given Control of Libyan and Tunisian local affairs, inferior to the Low Countries Trade Union Congress) 1910
• Establishment of the final constitution for the Union of the Low Countries 1910
• Disbandment of the Union Provisional Government
• 1910 Low Countries Trade Union Chairman Election (Hammer)
• Invasion/Annexation of Somalia, 1912
• Invasion/Annexation of Abyssinia, 1915
• Capital Moved to The Hague, 1915
• Invasion/Annexation of Kenya, 1919
• 1920 Low Countries Trade Union Chairman Election (Hammer)
• 1925 Election of North African Trade Union Chairman (Deputy Chairman of the Low Countries) (vanHumbeck)
• Death of Chairman Hammer 1924
• Plan presented for the Subsidiary Union of the Horn of Africa.
• December 1924 Special Election of Chairman of the Low Countries Trade Union Congress. (Michaels)

Any questions, comments, cries of bullshit?

[Setzer]

Here's a retread of the UCR's stats. I've improved some and lowered others, to fall in line with what I feel is appropriate.

Population- 3
Land area- 3
Colonial Territory- 0
Industry- 5
Economy- 3
Infrastructure- 3
Standing Military Limit- 3
Naval Focus- 4
Army Focus- 3
Air Focus- 3

Basically, I'm adding a bit more to my air arms. Now it's more then just a glorified recon wing, but there is still no seperate air force.

[Karmic Knight]

Here is the map with the land I'm claiming added in black.