SDN World 3 Country Claiming

[K. A. Pital]

Could someone please explain to me the tonnage limitations on the Navy, if there are any in the rules?

Which surface and/or submarine combatants are summarized in the count of total tonnage available to a nation? Do small stuff like torp. boats and gunboats fall out of it? Or is the limit only for a total summary of larger ships like cruisers, air carriers, battleships and destroyers?

Or are there limits to the displacement of the largest surface combatants (i.e. no initially owned ships larger than 60 000 tons, etc.?), not to total tonnage?

I need explanations.

[Norseman]

There is also another matter. I would expect also that a strong industry is backed by solid infrastructure. I mean, you have to have solid infrastructure to transport goods around and so forth. A good solid infrastructure promotes trade and thus provides opportunities for banking and so forth. There's a lot of ties between the various parts of the economy, and it is thus hard to just cut them up piece meal.

Well yes *but* here's the thing: You could potentially have a lot of money and not much industry or infrastructure (see the Gulf States or Argentina in the late 19th early 20th Centuries), a lot of industry but not a lot of money (certain Communist nations perhaps?). I'll admit that lots of industry without infrastructure is tricky, but it could be done if you had a situation where your industry is concentrated around say one or two river valleys and the rest of your country is third world.

[MKSheppard]

I'll simply pull one of my most useful books off the shelf detailing european economies from like 1795 to 1975, pick a country in the 1920s and use that as a basis for production. Need to coordinate with lonestar some more though since our histories would be intertwined very closely.

[Setzer]

I didn't make the points setup, I just used it. If people don't like how this world doesn't match our own closely enough, then why are we playing at all?
Are we going to go back to a post based country strength where the people who spend the most time on the board have the strongest countries?

[K. A. Pital]

I didn't make the points setup, I just used it.

So did everyone. But there's like, plenty of land where such industrial development would be possible other than Congo.

*sighs*

At least I hope people make a vague, but believable backstory.

[Norseman]

I didn't make the points setup, I just used it.

So did everyone. But there's like, plenty of land where such industrial development would be possible other than Congo.

*sighs*

At least I hope people make a vague, but believable backstory.

If the Congo is too unbelievable to people how about Zimbabwe? Or Kenya for that matter? Kenya + Uganda would be particularly well suited for settlement and development by Europeans. Kenya having the nickname "The Airconditioned State" and Uganda was once considered a suitable location for the Jewish homeland.

Just a suggestion mind you.

[Setzer]

So... I grab Kenya and Uganda and we fight over the resources in the Congo? Makes sense.

[Norseman]

So... I grab Kenya and Uganda and we fight over the resources in the Congo? Makes sense.

Claim that your country is the result of Zionism and mass expulsion of the Jews For all those people on SDN that absolutely hate the thought of the State of Israel! But if you do I insist on you calling your leader Mordecai Heller and remember "A is for Amygdala!"

[Setzer]

That might work. I'll start tweaking my backstory, and adjust my territorial stats.

Stas, Steve, how does that sound? A mass exodus of European Jewry to a more temperate less forested place? Financed by the Freemasons and Jewgold?

Oh I'm only joking. But I'll relocate, and work something out.

[Norseman]

That might work. I'll start tweaking my backstory, and adjust my territorial stats.

Stas, Steve, how does that sound? A mass exodus of European Jewry to a more temperate less forested place? Financed by the Freemasons and Jewgold?

Oh I'm only joking. But I'll relocate, and work something out.

Best part about that is that the area was so sparsely populated even in the 1930s that the Jews would simply have swamped the natives. IF colonisation begins after some horrible pogrom in the mid 1800s then things would be even better, the natives could be pushed aside, overwhelmed, or flat out integrated as thoroughly as the American Indians. This of course removes the trouble of having a small minority of white people lording it over the black natives.

[Ryan Thunder]

The history of Navin ("new" in Sanskrit) involves some of the native South Americans having a better resistance to European diseases than they did historically. The Spanish conquered them anyway and imported more slaves from India and Africa, but had to put up with constant and occasionally successful insurgency from the natives. The slaves finally overthrew the Spanish around 1727 and gradually established the state that I'm describing below.

Population: 2
Home territory: 3
Colonial territory: 0
Industry: 5
Economy: 4
Infrastructure: 4
Standing military: 2
Naval focus: 4
Army focus: 4
Air focus: 2

This may be subject to some change.

[Thanas]

Well, I'll not tell people to do what they want, but both a mass exodus of Jews is pretty much unthinkable (considering the majority of them live in Germany, which always treated it's jews very well compared to other european nations before Hitler) as well as the idea of a succesfull revolution against Spanish rule in 1727. Especially not in that area.

I also love it how everyone claims pretty much the same point layout. I think we'd be better off abolishing the point system and replace it with something more suitable.

[Ryan Thunder]

as well as the idea of a succesfull revolution against Spanish rule in 1727. Especially not in that area.

Damnit. Do you have any suggestions?

What if the Columbian Spanish were inspired by the rebellion against the British?

I also love it how everyone claims pretty much the same point layout. I think we'd be better off abolishing the point system and replace it with something more suitable.

What?

[Thanas]

as well as the idea of a succesfull revolution against Spanish rule in 1727. Especially not in that area.

Damnit. Do you have any suggestions?

Your best bet is a declaration of Indepence during or after the Napoleonic war, when the Spanish have no fleet and no army to speak of.

What if the Columbian Spanish were inspired by the rebellion against the British?

They'd be quashed. What you are advocating is a rebellion in the most important part of the Spanish Colonial Empire. The area you claim is the heart of the Spanish Empire.

I also love it how everyone claims pretty much the same point layout. I think we'd be better off abolishing the point system and replace it with something more suitable.

What?[/quote]

Well, look at the points. Everybody has about 3 in population, 0 in colonial territory, a 4/5 in industry etc...They all look alike.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

Well, look at the points. Everybody has about 3 in population, 0 in colonial territory, a 4/5 in industry etc...They all look alike.

Well, I wouldn't mind a larger population, but as it is, I think with the territory I have, squeezing 100million into the tiny area i have is just asking for trouble. And I'm trying to follow as much as what a Byzantine Empire might look like in the future. Though, the standing army "might" be reduced to 2 since the Byzantine armies were generally smaller than their rivals I would imagine.

[K. A. Pital]

Yeah, picking 4/5 in industry by rejecting territory and population seems kinda...

Hey! Steve and Czech, look here - what if a person claims an area which has population far in excess of the population he claims for his nation? Or far less? I suggest that we go with the REAL population densities and population of areas in 1900-1925, more or less, and if someone chooses China or India, for example, he automatically gets a 5 in population and can't get it down to 3?

As for people taking no colonies, that is their right. I believe that is fine because large powers are dicks and if small nations are so willing to be... well, small... they might as well later feel the boot of the opressor and think to their early ways of getting no territory. Alas, it would be too late. I am fine with people taking 0 colonies. However, getting a pre-history of a liberated colony should automatically mean a nation cannot get 5 in industry, 4 at the very best (being a very valuable colony!). Ordinary de-colonized or liberated territories should get 3 or less in industry - that's the most a liberated colony can seriously hope for. The Metropole is always more industrialized and exploits colonies' by keeping them relatively backward compared with the mainland.

[Ryan Thunder]

Your best bet is a declaration of Indepence during or after the Napoleonic war, when the Spanish have no fleet and no army to speak of.

Alright, then. 1811 it is.

They'd be quashed. What you are advocating is a rebellion in the most important part of the Spanish Colonial Empire. The area you claim is the heart of the Spanish Empire.

Ah. That explains alot, then...

Well, look at the points. Everybody has about 3 in population, 0 in colonial territory, a 4/5 in industry etc...They all look alike.

I'm not too concerned by it. They'll start to diverge once we get into the game posts, I think.

[Thanas]

Well, I have a major problem with designing Germany. Because to built a nation like Germany is impossible with the current point system.

[Steve]

This is why I was considering a tiered system where one must have a minimum in, say, population and territory, maybe infrastructure and economy as well now, to get 5 Industry. Because realistically the only 5s would be the equivalent of the heavily-industrialized (and population-dense) European states or the USA (I gave Cascadia a 4 myself, reflecting heavy industrialization centered around my major metropolitan areas of San Francisco, Vancouver, Seattle, and Portland, while even a 2 in population grants 50M people - I was also hoping to adapt a "no Mexican War" timeline with Rogue and Wilkens that would, among other things, let the Oregon Territory get more settlers before independence as Cascadia and contribute to a Cascadian takeover of northern California with an eventual gold rush there, just later than historical - note to Stas, this is why I'm not liking the idea of imposing historical population densities, because our changes to stuff would have an effect upon them).

This may work better if we further tie the Service Focus scores into Industry. Like one must have an Industry score of 3 to claim a combined Service Focus score of 7, while an Industry of 5 could grant max focus scores for all services (but in practicality wouldn't because you'll have had to spend most of your points in other categories by then).

I also highly encouraging people to sacrifice for colonies. Being on the Pacific limits my options to primarily islands (though I'm considering utilizing my 2 in CT to lay claim to the Solomons, New Britain, and New Ireland), but European nations would have major African holdings. My plan is to have colonies provide free population and maybe a bonus to naval focus to represent the need to maintain the Navy for holding them. Maybe a bonus to economy too to reflect the colonies providing a specialized market for the homeland economy. Though it'd be small - would need a minimum of 3 CT to get 1 Economy.

[Steve]

Well, I have a major problem with designing Germany. Because to built a nation like Germany is impossible with the current point system.

Tell me your problems, I'll help deal with them.

[Norseman]

Well, I'll not tell people to do what they want, but both a mass exodus of Jews is pretty much unthinkable (considering the majority of them live in Germany, which always treated it's jews very well compared to other european nations before Hitler) as well as the idea of a succesfull revolution against Spanish rule in 1727. Especially not in that area.

Uhm no the majority of European Jews do not nor have they ever lived in Germany, the bulk of European Jewry lived in Poland and Russia. Check Eichmann's list which is the best I can do, but it's clear that it's Eastern Europe that has the vast majority of Jews.

Also on a different note I am thinking that Cuba is a bit small for... well... the point spread available actually. Australia seems like it'd be more in line with expectations, would that be an option?

[Thanas]

Well, I'll not tell people to do what they want, but both a mass exodus of Jews is pretty much unthinkable (considering the majority of them live in Germany, which always treated it's jews very well compared to other european nations before Hitler) as well as the idea of a succesfull revolution against Spanish rule in 1727. Especially not in that area.

Uhm no the majority of European Jews do not nor have they ever lived in Germany, the bulk of European Jewry lived in Poland and Russia.

3 guesses as to who owned Poland.

Basically, what I am getting at is that Germany had the greatest number of highly-educated and rich jews, which is what you need.

[Ma Deuce]

Also on a different note I am thinking that Cuba is a bit small for... well... the point spread available actually. Australia seems like it'd be more in line with expectations, would that be an option?

Nobody seems to have claimed Brazil which I think might have some potential (with a few backstory tweaks, you could even call yourself the Empire of Brazil if you wanted ), especially if we start requiring population to reflect historical reality. Of course, then you'll have to put up with Ryan being your next-door neighbor .

[Setzer]

So how much historical license are we allowed anyway? I didn't see anything in the rules about it. I don't want people screaming "That wouldn't happen because" every time I try setting up a country.

[Steve]

I was hoping to allow people creative license, since the point is to have fun and a world molded in our image, not anything approaching a realistic counter-factual. Most objections to stuff like a Congolese state with any real industrialization seems to stem from local physical conditions more than "that's not historically possible", though, so if enough players insist we may have to see some limits on such.

That said, population density is not something I'm keen on enforcing because some changes to history will change population patterns. A later California gold rush, for instance, may contribute to more settlers in the Oregon Territory in the 1840s and 1850s, then a population boom when gold is actually found.