SDN World 3 Country Claiming

[Norseman]

Also on a different note I am thinking that Cuba is a bit small for... well... the point spread available actually. Australia seems like it'd be more in line with expectations, would that be an option?

Nobody seems to have claimed Brazil which I think might have some potential (with a few backstory tweaks, you could even call yourself the Empire of Brazil if you wanted ), especially if we start requiring population to reflect historical reality. Of course, then you'll have to put up with Ryan being your next-door neighbor .

So Population 1 or 2? And area what? 4? De facto the terrain makes Brazil a giant island only tangentally connected to the rest of South America.

Incidentally China should have Population 24 (600 million), which is partly why I don't think any one player should control the whole of China. I mean it really scuppers my sense of disbelief, it should either be an NPC or be divvied up a lot more, especially since area alone is four or five points. On the other hand I've got no problem with settler states in the Americas, Australia, or even AFrica having a lot *more* people than historical; that could easily have gone either way.

[Steve]

Anyone have an online source I can look up for historic naval sizes in 1920 or even 1914? I need it to determine the point total for naval forces based on Naval Focus.

As for China I'm giving Bluewolf special dispensation, though I may okay letting Langley continue to own those reaches of southern China (also, Norse, Beo holds Manchuria). However, I'm limiting his other scores' effects to reflect that the interior is still poor and barely touched by modern life.

[Ryan Thunder]

On a slightly related note; does this seem reasonable?

Type-Valiant, Columbian defense monitor laid down 1920

Displacement:
6 334 t light; 6 839 t standard; 7 000 t normal; 7 129 t full load

Dimensions: Length (overall / waterline) x beam x draught (normal/deep)
(328.08 ft / 322.75 ft) x 98.43 ft x (13.12 / 13.32 ft)
(100.00 m / 98.37 m) x 30.00 m x (4.00 / 4.06 m)

Armament:
1 - 17.72" / 450 mm 45.0 cal gun - 2 804.10lbs / 1 271.92kg shells, 200 per gun
Breech loading gun in turret on barbette mount, 1920 Model
1 x Single mount on centreline, forward deck centre
8 - 3.94" / 100.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 30.77lbs / 13.96kg shells, 300 per gun
Quick firing guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
2 - 2.95" / 75.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 12.98lbs / 5.89kg shells, 500 per gun
Anti-air guns in deck mounts, 1920 Model
2 x Single mounts on sides, forward deck forward
8 - 0.79" / 20.0 mm 45.0 cal guns - 0.25lbs / 0.11kg shells, 5 000 per gun
Machine guns in casemate mounts, 1920 Model
8 x Single mounts on sides, evenly spread
Weight of broadside 3 078 lbs / 1 396 kg

Armour:
- Belts: Width (max) Length (avg) Height (avg)
Main: 9.84" / 250 mm 225.92 ft / 68.86 m 11.91 ft / 3.63 m
Ends: 3.94" / 100 mm 96.82 ft / 29.51 m 11.91 ft / 3.63 m
Upper: 5.91" / 150 mm 225.92 ft / 68.86 m 8.01 ft / 2.44 m
Main Belt covers 108 % of normal length
Main belt does not fully cover magazines and engineering spaces

- Torpedo Bulkhead - Strengthened structural bulkheads:
1.97" / 50 mm 225.92 ft / 68.86 m 12.30 ft / 3.75 m
Beam between torpedo bulkheads 49.21 ft / 15.00 m

- Gun armour: Face (max) Other gunhouse (avg) Barbette/hoist (max)
Main: 7.87" / 200 mm - 7.87" / 200 mm

- Armoured deck - multiple decks:
For and Aft decks: 1.97" / 50 mm
Forecastle: 1.97" / 50 mm Quarter deck: 1.97" / 50 mm

- Conning towers: Forward 3.94" / 100 mm, Aft 3.94" / 100 mm

Machinery:
Oil fired boilers, complex reciprocating steam engines,
Geared drive, 2 shafts, 5 423 ihp / 4 046 Kw = 15.00 kts
Range 2 000nm at 10.00 kts
Bunker at max displacement = 290 tons

Complement:
382 - 497

Cost:
£1.279 million / $5.115 million

Distribution of weights at normal displacement:
Armament: 580 tons, 8.3 %
- Guns: 580 tons, 8.3 %
Armour: 3 283 tons, 46.9 %
- Belts: 1 972 tons, 28.2 %
- Torpedo bulkhead: 202 tons, 2.9 %
- Armament: 203 tons, 2.9 %
- Armour Deck: 843 tons, 12.0 %
- Conning Towers: 62 tons, 0.9 %
Machinery: 318 tons, 4.5 %
Hull, fittings & equipment: 2 152 tons, 30.7 %
Fuel, ammunition & stores: 666 tons, 9.5 %
Miscellaneous weights: 0 tons, 0.0 %

Overall survivability and seakeeping ability:
Survivability (Non-critical penetrating hits needed to sink ship):
16 241 lbs / 7 367 Kg = 5.8 x 17.7 " / 450 mm shells or 5.4 torpedoes
Stability (Unstable if below 1.00): 2.08
Metacentric height 15.5 ft / 4.7 m
Roll period: 10.5 seconds
Steadiness - As gun platform (Average = 50 %): 75 %
- Recoil effect (Restricted arc if above 1.00): 0.08
Seaboat quality (Average = 1.00): 1.51

Hull form characteristics:
Hull has a flush deck,
a normal bow and a cruiser stern
Block coefficient (normal/deep): 0.588 / 0.590
Length to Beam Ratio: 3.28 : 1
'Natural speed' for length: 17.97 kts
Power going to wave formation at top speed: 45 %
Trim (Max stability = 0, Max steadiness = 100): 50
Bow angle (Positive = bow angles forward): 15.00 degrees
Stern overhang: 0.00 ft / 0.00 m
Freeboard (% = length of deck as a percentage of waterline length):
Fore end, Aft end
- Forecastle: 15.00 %, 19.91 ft / 6.07 m, 16.31 ft / 4.97 m
- Forward deck: 30.00 %, 16.31 ft / 4.97 m, 12.66 ft / 3.86 m
- Aft deck: 40.00 %, 12.66 ft / 3.86 m, 12.66 ft / 3.86 m
- Quarter deck: 15.00 %, 12.66 ft / 3.86 m, 12.66 ft / 3.86 m
- Average freeboard: 13.97 ft / 4.26 m

Ship space, strength and comments:
Space - Hull below water (magazines/engines, low = better): 108.0 %
- Above water (accommodation/working, high = better): 154.0 %
Waterplane Area: 22 968 Square feet or 2 134 Square metres
Displacement factor (Displacement / loading): 107 %
Structure weight / hull surface area: 101 lbs/sq ft or 493 Kg/sq metre
Hull strength (Relative):
- Cross-sectional: 0.70
- Longitudinal: 1.86
- Overall: 0.77
Caution: Hull subject to strain in open-sea
Adequate machinery, storage, compartmentation space
Excellent accommodation and workspace room
Ship has slow, easy roll, a good, steady gun platform
Excellent seaboat, comfortable, can fire her guns in the heaviest weather

EDIT: Design was overweight or something...

[Norseman]

You know what I'm going with Brazil or Australia instead of Cuba, I got some ideas but I'll hash them out and present them for you tomorrow.

[Steve]

You know what I'm going with Brazil or Australia instead of Cuba, I got some ideas but I'll hash them out and present them for you tomorrow.

If they involve anything even remotely connected to slavery, you get Modnir to the face.

[Setzer]

I have an idea for traits that can balance things out a bit. The idea is you take one positive and one negative. For example, the UCR:

Positive Trait:

Resource Rich- You have almost everything necessary for modern industry inside your borders.

Negative Trait:

Former Colony- Your nation is not as developed as the older states of the world, and you cannot raise industry, economy, or infrastructure past 3.

A nation like Great Britain would have something like:

Naval Superpower- Your navy is regarded as one of the strongest in the world. +2 to Naval Focus, in addition to any points already spent. This can only be taken if you have 5 points already invested in the Navy.

Massive Importer- Your industries are dependent on overseas sources for materials, making you vulnerable to blockades.

Here are my ideas for a few other traits. Some will have points effects, others will have to be RPed:

Bled White- A falling birthrate or recent conflicts have severely reduced your available pool of manpower. -1 to Military Support limit

Poor- Lack of industries or hard currency have hurt your nation. -1 to economy

Overcentralized- Most of your industry or resources are clustered around a key region or point, giving you a strategic Achilles heel. +1 to two stats, but -2 infrastructure

Overpopulated- Your nation has more people then it can properly support. +1 to Military Support limit, -1 to economy and industry

Poorly Educated- Learned individuals are few and far between, hampering your research and development efforts.

Major Resource- You have massive amounts of a key resource inside your borders. This gives you abundant material for export

Resource Poor- You lack the natural resources needed for industry, and rarely have the money for sufficient imports. -2 Industry, -1 economy

Diverse Economy- You have several well developed industries, giving you a versatile economy.

Single Product Economy- You produce only one major item for the world market, making you vulnerable to price swings

[Steve]

Good ideas, Setz. If I can implement them without excessive number crunching....

To use my own country's example, Cascadia's strength might be "Abundant Natural Resources" - Cascadia's domains are very rich in various resources like lumber and various metals IIRC, Alberta and Alaska has oil (if untapped) and we have a decent amount of arable land for agriculture with I believe a lean toward orchards - while a flaw would be related to the fact that we have vast tracks of barely-developed, low-life-capacity territory (Yukon and Alaska, plus northern Alberta and British Columbia would also be subject to near-Arctic conditions).

Though I would propose that flaws would place some kind of limit on scores. Like a certain flaw would cap a score at 2 or 3 points only. The British example permits a +2 to Naval Focus and permits the player to spend only 3 to get a 5. (Maybe rename the boost name to "Queen of the Seas" or something).

Combine this with caps on how much one can spend based on basic categories - stuff like Industry being restricted by a combo of Population, Economy, Home Territory, and Infrastructure, while Naval Focus could be limited by Colonial Territory and Industry - and we might be able to diversify things.

[Thanas]

Steve, before you do anything of that sort, please check your PM inbox.

[Steve]

Steve, before you do anything of that sort, please check your PM inbox.

Did.

*kowtows*

We're not worthy! We're not worthy!

[CmdrWilkens]

Steve if its point system related could you shoot it my way. I'm trying to work on a system where you have to trade a whole bunch of factors against each other. Colonies provide a disproportionate boost to GDP but cost colonial point however you need colonial points to have a Navy or Merchant Marine point total above a certain point, population is more expensive the denser it gets (a 5 population on a 5 territory size costs 5 points but a 5 population on a 3 territory size might cost 10) however you need a certain population level or else Industrialization becomes more expensive much like with population density. Also the more Industry the less agriculture so your populace may starve (unless you import which would be a GDP hit) the two combined (industry and agriculture) could not exceed double your land total (thus only a 5 in land could get a 5 in industry and a 5 in agriculture).

So anyway I haven't finalized it by any stretch but I'm working on it to try and give some variety to our nations without being so complex it bogs nation creation down.

[Siege]

My own and Fin's history starts diverting at the Battle of Manzikert in 1071; OTL goes pretty much out the 15th story window after the First Crusade and gets shredded into Ticker Tape on the way down when we pass the Mongol invasions of the 13th century. So frankly "going with historical populations" or anything vaguely like it doesn't do me much good at all.

[Raj Ahten]

I'm going to be a bit behind everyone else here because I just started a new job and as a result am strapped a bit for time these days.

That said I intend to have Uruguay and Paraguay as satellites. I also know someone has already claimed the Falklands but seeing as I am Argentina plus here I'd like to lay a claim for them as well. A foreign empire's naval station that close to me wouldn't be welcome and if it persists into the main game there might be difficulties.

I should have a basic history and points distribution up for consideration in the next day or so; though it looks like we might get some new interesting traits to play with soon.

[Steve]

The revised rules, yet to be put on the wiki, and with some extra bits likely to be what we have. Thanas proposed a great deal of these measures and gave explainations for them, but direct all questions, concerns, and complaints to me as I will make the final decision.

Population
0: 1M
1: 25M
2: 50M
3: 75M (you need at least a 3 in Home Territory to support this without colonies)
4: 100M
5: 125M (you need at least a 4 in Home Territory to support this many people without colonies)

Home Territory
Home Territory provides safety from invading armies as you have more ground to fall back on.
0: You are Luxembourg. Sucks to be you.
1:
2:
3:
4:
5: Canada, Russia as absolute limit.

(I'm still contemplating minimums for each area, I'm pretty sure 6 million square km will be the lowest to mandate a 5, meaning that practically Australia is the smallest country today to be a 5. France is still 3, and I'm contemplating 600,000 square km for that (France is about 643,000 square km). This leaves me to decide 1, 2, and 4 based on those marks.)


Colonial Territory
0: Squat. You control nothing outside your home borders.
1: useful for naval bases in parts of the world
2: useful for naval bases in all parts of the world
3: + 1 to population
4: +2 to population)
5: British Empire - You have an India to call your very own. (+2 to population, +1 to economy)


Modifikations. Now people actually have an incentive to get colonies, at least for naval bases reasons.


Industry
0: 30pts/mo, size limit 10kt.
1: 60pts/mo, size limit 20kt
2: 120pts/mo, size limit 40kt (you need at least a total of 6 points in the following fields: population, infrastructure, economy and colonial possession)
3: 150pts/mo, size limit 60kt (you need at least a total of 9 in the above-described fields) + 1 to a focus of your choice
4: 180pts/mo, size limit 60kt (you need at least a total of 12 in the above-described fields with at least a 3 in population and a 3 in infrastructure) + 2 to a focus of your choice
5: 210pts/mo, size limit 60kt (you need at least a total of 15 in the above-described fields with at least a 3 in population and a 4 in infrastructure) + 3 to a focus of your choice

(Note, some aspects of the points/month could change, as would the size limit on ships since I'm beginning to contemplate making 50kt the limit, not 60kt).

I have modified it so that the upper levels are only accessible for players who have a combination of population, infrastructure, economy and colonial possessions. Ergo, everybody can no longer use the categories as sink holes unless their economy suffers. It is still possible to get a 5 in industry with little infrastructure or economy, but it is much harder. Also, no industrial revolution without a good rail and infrastructure system.

Also, people who have a larger industry will get a boost to their armed forces. This prevent situation like Player A building a thinly-defended country with massive economy and Player B having no economy but a large military just waltzing in and taking over. It is still possible, but much harder.

Economy
Economy allows you to build advanced industry. Economy also allows you to boost production in wartime.

0: No deficit in wartime allowed.
1: 25% deficit in wartime allowed
2: 50% deficit in wartime allowed
3: standard economy. 75% deficit in wartime allowed.
4: (you need at least a 3 in population for this) 100% deficit in wartime allowed
5: (you need at least a 3 in population and a 1 in colonial possessions for this) 125% deficit in wartime allowed

Economy is now, next to industry and infrastructure, the most important factor. If you do not have at least a 3, you can kiss your hopes of ever building a decent army goodbye. And don't even try to have a Navy with anything less than a three.

Infrastructure
0: Your army cannot redeploy at all.
1: Your army can redeploy by the speed of foot marches (20 km a day)
2: Your army can redeploy to the speed of 18th century armies
3: Your army can redeploy by the speed of 18th century cavalry. Standard redeployment time.
4: Your army can redeploy by the speed of train. (You need at least a 3 in economy and a 3 in industrial might to pull this off)
5: Your army can redeploy from one end of your country to the other in a matter of two-three weeks (depending on size of nation). (You need a 4 in economy and a 4 in industrial might to pull this off)

NOTE: For home territory 4-5 this takes longer and will be decided by the mods. [/quote]

Infrastructure now has direct effects on economy and army (see above and below) and also allows you a direct advantage. This was also the reason why the Prussians with 800.000 men could hold out against 2 million Russian/Frenchmen in the wargames they ran - they could relocate very fast due to the german high-speed rail network.

This would in theory allow industrialized nations to do the same, ergo they do not have to worry that much about large garrison armies.


Standing Military Limit
0: Your army consitsts of fortress and garrison divisions.
1. 40% of standard forces
2: 60% of standard forces
3: The standard for a typical nation.
4: 110% of forces to spend - 1 to economy
5: 120% of standard forces - 2 to economy and - 1 to industry. At least a value of 3 in population and a 3 in economy needed.

Edited to allow for the fact that you draw more men than your good share from the workforce of the nation.


Naval Focus - note: determines starting forces.
0: You have your ship of state
1: 10 capital ships, 70 ship navy in total. Total capship tonnage: 0,3 million, total BB tonnage may not exceed more than 0,2 million tons Combined Industry/Economy level of 4 needed
2:20 capital ships, 140 ship navy in total. Total capship tonnage: 0,6m, total BB tonnage < 0,4 m. t. Combined Industry/Economy level of 6
3: 30 capital ships, 210 ship navy in total. Total capship tonnage: 0,9 million, total BB tonnage may not exceed more than 0,6 million tons Combined Industry/Economy level of 8
4: 40 capital ships, 280 ship navy in total. Total capship tonnage: 1,2m, total BB tonnage may not exceed 0,8 million tons. Combined Industry/Economy level of 8
5: 50 capital ships, 350 ship navy in total. Total capital ship tonnage may not exceed 1,5 million standard tons tonnage, total bb tonnage may not exceed more than 1 million standard tons Needs a combined industry/economy level of 10

NOTE: No ships larger than 50.000t may be in existence at the start of the game. The number of those ships is limited to 8 per Navy. Naval forces with less than a 4 cannot have those ships in existence. No ships larger than 60kt may be built over the next decade.

Size limits for ships do apply, see above under Industry.

Battleship construction is now a matter of real economic strength and has very real limits. I added the total tonnage of the Royal Navy for a 5 point Navy focus.

Army Focus
0: You have no army except your personal guard
1: Your standing army is 200.000 men
2:Your standing army is 400.000 men
3: Your standing army is 600.000 men
4: Your standing army is 800.000 men
5: Your standing army is 1 million men

NOTE: You also have reserves. These are:
if Economy and Infrastructure = 10 points, then they are 20% of your population
if Economy and Infrastructure = 9 points, then they are 18% of your population.
(scales down to....):
If Economy and/or Infrastructure = 1 point, then they are 2% of your population. [/quote]

Armies are now a combination of reserves and standing army. 5 is the OTL Russian army (rounded), 4 is the OTL German Army (heavily rounded). Also, people with larger populations will have more reserves, but this is neutralized if they have low economy/infrastructure.

Air Focus
0: You refuse to embrace these ridiculous flying contraptions.
1: You have 120 aircraft
2: You have 240 aircraft
3: You have 360 aircraft
4: You have 480 aircraft
5: You have 600 aircraft


This is ahistorical. Airforces back then were much smaller iirc, but if you have to spent 5 points and only get ~200 aircrafts, nobody will really invest that much in airforces.



(The following is proposed to have some differences in power, though not as severe as the old system. I'm not entirely in favor of this, though if enough people are we can implement it):
Modifications:
30 points total to spend
+ 3 points total to spend for People with over 20k posts, Senators and (Mini-) Mods
+ 2 points to spend for People with over 10k posts
+ 1 point to spend for people with over 5k posts
- 1 points to spend for negative custom titles and dicks. (Note, this is one I'm not entirely sure about)

Modifications made due to some people not playing nice and to have a very small bell curve.

Stuff from me is in parentheses. Again, Thanas was kind enough to provide me a very good fleshing-out, but if you have questions or complaints don't direct them to him, direct them to me.

I'm also going to look into using Industry, Economy, and Navy Focus to determine yard space for building or overhauling/repairing ships. Right now I'm examining the CIA World Factbook's list of countries by area to determine good thresholds for each point.

[Ryan Thunder]

Lose the arbitrary forum status shit and we're good.

[Bluewolf]

(The following is proposed to have some differences in power, though not as severe as the old system. I'm not entirely in favor of this, though if enough people are we can implement it):
Modifications:
30 points total to spend
+ 3 points total to spend for People with over 20k posts, Senators and (Mini-) Mods
+ 2 points to spend for People with over 10k posts
+ 1 point to spend for people with over 5k posts
- 1 points to spend for negative custom titles and dicks. (Note, this is one I'm not entirely sure about)

What a load of rubbish. This totally ruins what was good about this system which is that people are on an equal playing field.Your own cunning, intellgence and diplomacy skills would make or break you. We don't need another fucking power curve. Seriously. Why should post count even fucking matter? I can be a total retard can make 5000+ posts without any real contribution. It is hilariously unfair that just because someone posts more than someone else, they fucking get more points. For what exactly?

The only people who I agree with getting more points are the Mods of this game because they are the the people who make sure this game stays fun and is not abused badly. Therefore extra points maybe needed to maintain that. But for the virtue of being a fucking Senator or a Mod that may not even mod STGOD's? Fuck that!
Oh and we are back to the hilariously fucking retarded -1 for Negative CT's/+3 Senators thing. I love how being a Senator automatically makes you some kind of angel who deserves more points. I also love the fact that its typical forum politics.How someone acts in the RP and past RP's matters, not retarded titles of ranks. Its pathetic. Stupidly pathetic and has a chance of souring this STGOD. Just give the mods of the game a couple more points if needed.

I am honestly not trying to bash people here but I am sick of this uneeded post count bullshit that I have not seen it blight any other RP I have gone on. The system is good but this is like the tumor onto it that drags it all down.

[Ryan Thunder]

The "newbs, not newbs" power curve made more sense, if anybody's really keen on having one.

But, for the record, fuck that.

[Ryan Thunder]

Regarding home territory; may I propose the following scale?
0: <60 000
1: >60 000
2: >200 000
3: >600 000
4: >2 000 000
5: >6 000 000

For reference, if we're using the above system, my country could quite legally be the following;

Population (3)
Home Territory (4)
Colonial Territory (0)
Industry (5)
Economy (4)
Infrastructure (4)
Standing Military (3)
Naval Focus (2)
Army Focus (5)
Air Focus (3)

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I'm not entirely in favour of another power curve either.

[Master_Baerne]

Firstly, I'm with Ryan and Bluewolf about the postcount modifiers.

Secondly, did we ever decide on whether or not there was a WW1-analogue in this world?

[Steve]

I posted the power curve part simply to see the reaction to it at that low a curve, not because I'm going to implement it.

At most, giving mods a couple of points might help Bean and Thanas more properly reflect British and German strength, and even that's skewed if Lonestar and Shep leave him no room for any kind of holdings in India.

Anyway, any other questions?

[Lonestar]

I posted the power curve part simply to see the reaction to it at that low a curve, not because I'm going to implement it.

At most, giving mods a couple of points might help Bean and Thanas more properly reflect British and German strength, and even that's skewed if Lonestar and Shep leave him no room for any kind of holdings in India.

Anyway, any other questions?

Question: Since the start I've been planning on having the Dominion Battleline be 6 pre-dreads, 6 dreads(2 12inchers and 4 13.5inchers), which I guess would make me spend "2" on navy...but surely that would be a mismatch since someone could build 20 super-dreadnoughts for the same amount?

[K. A. Pital]

Power curves = no. Also:

That is the Russian Navy c. 1920 without the Civil War losses, but with all the RJW (in this reality, RKW) and First World War pre-1915 combat losses and post-1915 accidental mine losses and such.

Maybe that'll help Steve a bit.

[Slacker]

I'd be interested in playing a surviving Polish-Lithuanian-Ukrainian Commonwealth, but something tells me it's not going to fit in between the uberGermany and the uberRussia. If it's possible, well, I'll keep an eye on the thread.

[K. A. Pital]

You can present the claim to Steve. I might allow the loss of Poland and Lithuania, and maybe Western parts of Ukraine making the USSR look more like it's 1925 borders in the West. Then again, of course this could lead to an in-game war, like territorial claims do IRL. But maybe not

[TimothyC]

Early set up:

Population: 3
Territory: 4 (roughly 4 -4.2 million square kilometers)
Colonial Territory: 2 (I make patrols into the areas just north of me, and probably have defacto control over the southern half of Angola)
Industry: 4 (Heavy mining)
Economy: 4 (WE GOT GOLD)
Infrastructure: 4 (lots of Rail, but the northern road network is crap, and working on several huge hydro projects)
Standing Military Limit: 3
Naval Focus: 1 (I plan on a pair of small battleships, 4 cruisers and 2 small carriers)
Army Focus: 3 (It's actually more like 400 thousand, but I have 100 thousand plus Cavalry troops)
Air Focus: 2