SDN World 3 Country Claiming

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

I was just talking to Steve, and so for the record, I will likely claim Sardinia, and some parts of Persia, near the Straits of Hormuz in particular, and the UAE.

[Steve]

No, sorry. I'd rather not have seven players surrounding me when I already have six boxing me in. So I'll not surrender part of Germany's eastern territory, especially not when there are both important coal and ore mining area and it also is necessary for me to keep Silesia as a buffer zone for Prague/Berlin.

Erm, actually, when I talked to Steve, I specifically excluded Silesia and Pommerania from my proposal. In the west I was figuring 1920 borders at best, the little bit of extra I want comes from the Russian side of the frontier. Obviously I'd be gaining Galicia, Ponzan, Krakow, and I'd really like Danzig, but I wasn't claiming Breslau or the Silesian industrial zone.


And Stas, I appreciate the vote of support there.

I also recall telling you that Danzig wasn't happening. It's too vital to East Prussia. And I was only thinking Galicia and Krakow honestly, or more accurately the parts that were Austria's. Because Germany ceding anything it directly held willingly isn't a realistic occurrence. Stas' concessions would let you have Riga for a Baltic port anyway.

[Steve]

Incidentally I want to know what the rules are on airships? For that matter what about bombers? Should we say that the number of airplanes are actually the number of *engines*? That would sort of work, even with airships (eight engines or more) but I'd like something official.

Also another question, are we once more playing ourselves getting zapped into the bodies of the leaders of these nations? I mean as in the previous games?

No, number of airplanes. And I don't think we'll be doing the "zapped into the bodies of the leaders" this time. Leads to too much weirdness.

[Norseman]

Incidentally I want to know what the rules are on airships? For that matter what about bombers? Should we say that the number of airplanes are actually the number of *engines*? That would sort of work, even with airships (eight engines or more) but I'd like something official.

Also another question, are we once more playing ourselves getting zapped into the bodies of the leaders of these nations? I mean as in the previous games?

No, number of airplanes.

So what about airships then?

And I don't think we'll be doing the "zapped into the bodies of the leaders" this time. Leads to too much weirdness.

Heh weirdness can be quite fun you know.

[Thanas]

Third French Republic
Territory: France, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Laos, Cambodia, and Tahiti.
History: To Be Inserted

Population: 3 + 2 Colonial Territory
Home Territory: 3; France
Colonial Territory: 4; Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Laos, Cambodia, and Tahiti.
Industry: 5
Economy: 3
Infrastructure: 4
Standing Military Limit: 2
Army Focus: 1 + 3 Infrastructure
Navy Focus: 3
Air Focus: 2

That would be 3 due to industry, methinks.

[Fingolfin_Noldor]

As I just talked to Steve, seems that people are double claiming Tunisia. Now I don't really care for most of that country, but I would like the area around Carthage and that is probably all I would care about. Just enough to be a breadbasket and other kinds of industry.

EDIT: I want to take Kenya before someone takes it for the time being, alone with Sumatra and S. Borneo and Papua New Guinea unless somone protests.

[Bluewolf]

Does anyone have a link that gives China's population during the 1920's? It'd be really helpful if someome knows one.

[Norseman]

Does anyone have a link that gives China's population during the 1920's? It'd be really helpful if someome knows one.

I'll do y'all one better PopulStat has the population statistics for all the worlds countries going back over a century sometimes two, AND the populations of their provinces for the same time.

[Slacker]

I also recall telling you that Danzig wasn't happening. It's too vital to East Prussia. And I was only thinking Galicia and Krakow honestly, or more accurately the parts that were Austria's. Because Germany ceding anything it directly held willingly isn't a realistic occurrence. Stas' concessions would let you have Riga for a Baltic port anyway.

I'm not expecting Danzig, especially if I'm getting Riga. Ponzan and Galicia are pretty much must-haves if the country's going to be functional.

[Ma Deuce]

Population: 1
Territory: 2
Colonies: 1
Industry: 3
Economy: 3
Infrastructure: 4
Standing military: 3
Navy Focus: 2
Army Focus: 3
Air Focus: 3
Reserves: 5 pts (10 percent)

A rough draft of my points layout using the current rules (I think I got the rules right). Note: I'm assuming I can count the sundry Indian Ocean island chains I posses as colonial territory.

I'd also like to point out that I also think that the number of ships allowed by each level of Navy Focus is too high: At the Battle of Jutland, which involved almost the entire fighting forces of the Royal Navy and Kaiserliche Marine (then the two largest navies in the world), included 150 British ships, with 37 dreadnoughts (including battlecruisers) and 8 armored cruisers. The Germans brought about 100 ships, including 21 dreadnoughts and 6 pre-dreadnoughts.

I would also be in favor of removing the distinction for capital ships and institute a straight tonnage limit. As for the concern about people building all-dreadnought navies, I'm not concerned at all: Players who build no escorts and screens for their fleet will be in for a nasty shock when their battle line gets destroyer-rushed and torpedoed while busy duking it out with a smaller line of enemy battleships that are part of a balanced fleet. Another issue about defining capital ship limits is that you generally can't make a hard and fast definition of what constitutes a capital ship without also applying tonnage limits for smaller ships as well (which was done in the WNT).

[Steve]

Just to keep this transparent, I'm going to let Bean, Stas, and Thanas, as SDN mods and players of the world's two premiere industrial powers and of Eurasia's largest nation, have an extra 2 points if they need them to properly simulate their nations. This will only apply to them - extending it to Senators would, IMHO, be somewhat unfair, and of course as a Senator I have a conflict of interest in announcing such.

I ask that they only spend those two points if absolutely necessary, and to explain that necessity for my approval.

If any other people who hold mod positions feel they need the extra points as well, I'm open to hear their pleas. But as of now these three are the only ones that I think would really need it with what they're playing.

[Setzer]

Ok, here's my stats under the new rules.

Population- 4
Home Territory- 4
Colonial Territory- 0
Industry- 3
Economy- 4
Infrastructure- 5 (effectively 3) I'm spending 5 points but using the standard redeployment time in game, as balance for my territory size.
Standing Military Limit- 3
Naval Focus - 2
Army Focus- 4
Air Focus: 1 (1 pt +1 industry bonus, so it's effectively 2)

[Master_Baerne]

Fin, you can have Carthage and some of the surrounding area - Seems a reasonable-enough request.

Third French Republic
Territory: France, Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Laos, Cambodia, and Tahiti.
History: To Be Inserted

Population: 3 + 2 Colonial Territory
Home Territory: 3; France
Colonial Territory: 4; Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia, Libya, Laos, Cambodia, and Tahiti.
Industry: 5
Economy: 3
Infrastructure: 4
Standing Military Limit: 2
Army Focus: 1 + 3 Infrastructure
Navy Focus: 3
Air Focus: 2

That would be 3 due to industry, methinks.

'

And you're quite correct.

[Steve]

After some contemplation, I've decided to just claim the whole Bismarck/New Britain archipelago as well as Bougainville. And I think I forgot Samoa in that last list too, though I may be open to negotiation if anyone else wants Samoa. Granted, all that probably won't bring my colonial land area further than maybe 80,000 square kilometers or so.

So that brings the colonial territories of Cascadia to Hawaii, Midway and Wake Atolls, Truk Lagoon (I don't see the point in claiming too much of the entire Carolines), Samoa, Bougainville plus maybe a couple of the outlying islands, and the Bismarck Archipelago.

[Thanas]

After some contemplation, I've decided to just claim the whole Bismarck/New Britain archipelago as well as Bougainville. And I think I forgot Samoa in that last list too, though I may be open to negotiation if anyone else wants Samoa. Granted, all that probably won't bring my colonial land area further than maybe 80,000 square kilometers or so.

So that brings the colonial territories of Cascadia to Hawaii, Midway and Wake Atolls, Truk Lagoon (I don't see the point in claiming too much of the entire Carolines), Samoa, Bougainville plus maybe a couple of the outlying islands, and the Bismarck Archipelago.

The Bismarck archipelago was and still is owned by the German Empire. Guess why it is called the Bismarck archipelago?

[Steve]

After some contemplation, I've decided to just claim the whole Bismarck/New Britain archipelago as well as Bougainville. And I think I forgot Samoa in that last list too, though I may be open to negotiation if anyone else wants Samoa. Granted, all that probably won't bring my colonial land area further than maybe 80,000 square kilometers or so.

So that brings the colonial territories of Cascadia to Hawaii, Midway and Wake Atolls, Truk Lagoon (I don't see the point in claiming too much of the entire Carolines), Samoa, Bougainville plus maybe a couple of the outlying islands, and the Bismarck Archipelago.

The Bismarck archipelago was and still is owned by the German Empire. Guess why it is called the Bismarck archipelago?

Because Germany claimed it after British explorers named it after the British Isles. And I have proximity and the ability to claim prior to historic German claim. OTOH, you are free to claim New Guinea itself, which is arguably more valuable. I'd even relent to Germany's historic claims on Samoa, but I insist on the main islands of the New Britain Archipelago (only called them Bismarcks because that tends to be the name they're known by now) being under the Cascadian tricolor.

[Karmic Knight]

On a different issue I'm thinking of having a Brazillian Civil War 1897-1904, who would be inclined to intervene on the side of the Republicans against the Revolutionaries? I'm kind of interested since I'm working on a history and I'd like to know if there will be any IC grudges to bear in mind.

The Revolutionaries would likely recieve support and supplies by way of Curacao from the Union, not what you asked but relevant to the time period.

As I just talked to Steve, seems that people are double claiming Tunisia. Now I don't really care for most of that country, but I would like the area around Carthage and that is probably all I would care about. Just enough to be a breadbasket and other kinds of industry.

If you are referring to Baerne and I, we worked out a deal in which I get the French Possessions from the Western African Coast in exchange for my Libyan and Tunisian claims, if you are talking about something else, whatever.

EDIT: I want to take Kenya before someone takes it for the time being, alone with Sumatra and S. Borneo and Papua New Guinea unless somone protests.

I have already had Kenya as a colony for some time, along with Somalia and Abyssinia, Forming the Subsidiary Union of the Horn of Africa.

[Thanas]

After some contemplation, I've decided to just claim the whole Bismarck/New Britain archipelago as well as Bougainville. And I think I forgot Samoa in that last list too, though I may be open to negotiation if anyone else wants Samoa. Granted, all that probably won't bring my colonial land area further than maybe 80,000 square kilometers or so.

So that brings the colonial territories of Cascadia to Hawaii, Midway and Wake Atolls, Truk Lagoon (I don't see the point in claiming too much of the entire Carolines), Samoa, Bougainville plus maybe a couple of the outlying islands, and the Bismarck Archipelago.

The Bismarck archipelago was and still is owned by the German Empire. Guess why it is called the Bismarck archipelago?

Because Germany claimed it after British explorers named it after the British Isles. And I have proximity and the ability to claim prior to historic German claim. OTOH, you are free to claim New Guinea itself, which is arguably more valuable. I'd even relent to Germany's historic claims on Samoa, but I insist on the main islands of the New Britain Archipelago (only called them Bismarcks because that tends to be the name they're known by now) being under the Cascadian tricolor.

Wouldn't New Guinea push my colony points from 1 to two? I mean, it is only a 1 now due to the worthless african colonies and Tsingtao being the only thing that brings in a small money.

Also, New Guinea seems to be in a less good position than the bismarck archipelago, mainly because it could easily be blockaded by said archipelago which are also way easier to defend.

[Steve]

What are your colonial claims anyway? Sans Archipelago?

[Thanas]

Here is a list, with Tsingtao being the only thing worthy of notice.

If that already is too much for a 1 count (as I figured they are worthless) I'd rather keep just the east/Tsingtao and a few naval bases in my former african colonies, which I will have set free after the treaty of Rome. Maybe another demand of that treaty by the western powers?

[Siege]

After thinking on this a bit, I'd like to claim Kuwait as a colony/protectorate, to go with Port Sudan (or rather Sawakin) in Sudan (I don't need or want the whole of the Sudan as a colony; the rest of it can be teeming with natives for all I care, that's kind of the point of the place -- we send troops down there to get some experience shooting at people.)

I don't need any naval stations in other parts of the world; I'd rather concern myself with my immediate surroundings instead. Plus with holdings ranging from Benghazi to Kuwait I'll have plenty of reach anyway. So, my two colonial points are spent on a strip of the Sudanese coast down to Sawakin and the Emirate of Kuwait. Pay tribute to the Caliph of Cairo, you must!

[Steve]

Here is a list, with Tsingtao being the only thing worthy of notice.

If that already is too much for a 1 count (as I figured they are worthless) I'd rather keep just the east/Tsingtao and a few naval bases in my former african colonies, which I will have set free after the treaty of Rome. Maybe another demand of that treaty by the western powers?

Why would France and Britain permit those colonies be independent instead of taking them over themselves?

You could have Namibia ceded to South Africa as part of that treaty to account for Marius' claim.

Also, I remembered that Samoa was actually taken in two parts, the Western islands to Germany and the eastern to the US. With no US presence in the Pacific in this world, Cascadia can take the US's place in the Tripartite agreement, so you'd get German Samoa and I'd get "Cascadian" Samoa.

Anyway, have you added up the land area for the German Empire yet? I can do so if you want, then determine what your CT score would be from those.

[Thanas]

For the colonial parts of it, no I have not. Thanks for doing it for me.

[Bluewolf]

Well this is my idea for China : Spoiler

Hypothetical China:

1839-1842: The Opium wars break out and China loses secularly. Their image of power is shattered like glass. The Treaty of Nanjing is signed which is the start of several unequal treaties.

1861-1894: The Self Strengthening Movement in an attempt to gain “practical knowledge “while at the same time while keeping the old mentality. This attempt at Modernisation is met with limited success due to the significance of the political institutions and social ideas that had helped Western advancement. However modernisation across China starts to speed up due to the movement.

1894-1897: The Sino Japanese war breaks out, mainly over the control of Taiwan. The progress of the Self Strengthening Movement against the Meiji Restoration of Japan is highlighted. It showed the modernisation of China had not gone far enough to let it win the war.

1898: Qing emperor, Guangxu starts a series of vast changes to the social and institutional order of China. This would push China into further modernisation in many areas. Opposition to these plans are met by many conservatives. Soon after a failed coup’detat, led by Empress Dowager Cixi was attempted, showing the barriers China faced to reform. Such opposition slows progress but the reforms carry on. Some reform does cause problems though. For example some reforms within the army help the rise of warlords.

1908: The potential threat of the SAU is highlighted and there is some movement to be more organised in response to this. Little headway is made though.

1915: With the rise of Warlords came the eventual attempt to get rid of them. A large sweeping campaign spreads across China to removing them causing a lot of fighting. In the confusion, Guangxi and Hainan provinces are taken by the SAU.

1918: With the rising threats around the pacific, China launches a program to upgrade her lagging navy. A deal is done with Britain for limited help in this though there is a lot of distrust of Britain using this to get new foothold of influence into China.

Also points wise:

Population: 5 (The population China has massive 480 million people and rising) *This population is allowed by Steve

Home Territory: 5 (China streches from Tibet to Taiwan with all the provinces of China minus Hainan, Guangxi, Macau and most of Manchuria, Hong Kong)

Colonial Territory: 0

Infastructure: 3 (China attempts of modernisation have meant that the infastructure has developed to an extent with more improved roads and some rails yet there is still a massive amount of work to be done)

Economy: 3 (The banks of China are fair and have improved over the years yet they are not the best)

Industry: 3 (Industry has popped up all over China though it is sparse in some areas and China cannot produce too much)

Standing Limit: 3 (China has a fair sized military for its size ready to defend its interest if need be).

Naval Focus: 2 (China is lagging behind in naval terms but keeps a medium sized navy which is improving. It is to defend China's coastal waters)

Army: 3+1 (China has a massive army that is brimming with well trained troops at its disposal) +1 Industry

Air Force: 3 (China has made an effort to improve on its air force and keep it up with the powers around it)

[Steve]

For the colonial parts of it, no I have not. Thanks for doing it for me.

Well, having not yet counted German Samoa, Tsingtao, the Bismarcks, the various German sandspits in the Pacific, or Namibia, you have a total of 1,710,605 square kilometers in colonial area with the old German Empire. That is a CT score of 3, being between 600,000 and 2,000,000 square kilometers.

Namibia is 825,418 square kilometers, minus 1,124 square kilometers for British-held Walvis Bay, and would thus put you into 4. But Marius has claimed it and, heh, only Mongolia is more sparsely populated.

Here are the figures of your interested holdings by square km.

942,560 Tanganyika
475,442 Cameroon
56,785 Togo
181,650 German New Guinea (Kaiser Wilhelmsland)
26,338 Rwanda
27,830 Burundi
2,831 Western (German) Samoa
10,654 Tsingtao
9,600 New Ireland
15,816 East New Britain + islands (modern Papua East NB province)
21,000 West NB + islands (modern Papua West NB province)